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Author Topic: Timing of leaving the tent and deaths based on the watch evidence  (Read 4380 times)

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August 07, 2020, 10:56:43 PM
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Marchesk


So there were four watches in the case files: https://dyatlovpass.com/watches?lid=1. The freezer experiment mentioned in that article has three watches stopping within 8-25 minutes of one another after 2 hours at -4F. The watches from the Chivruay incident stopping within 30 minutes of one another. Assuming this evidence applies to the Dyaltov watches (all manual wind as I understand it), we have an interesting find. Igor's watch stopped at 5:31, while Rustem and Tibo's stopped around three hours later. That would seem to indicate Igor died three hours earlier than those two.

Which means Rustem wasn't one of the first to die, as some have thought, and his skull fracture must have come later. It would also mean he and Igor were not going back to the tent together along with Zina. We can also roughly guess at how long Igor was outside the tent. If it took his watch two and half hours to stop working after he collapsed, and the group abandoned the tent sometime around dinner or shortly after, then that's 6-7 hours.

It also raises the question of what Rustem was doing three hours after Igor collapsed on the slope. Why was he on an exposed slope 10 hours after leaving the tent, give or take an hour? And why was Igor three hours earlier in such bad shape that he could only go a few hundred meters? Igor did not have significant injuries.




August 08, 2020, 04:02:45 AM
Reply #1
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Nigel Evans


An excellent piece of detective work! I've long held the view that Igor never got down the slope but was whacked by something similar to Zinaida and perhaps the 2Yuris who did get to the cedar eventually badly injured and suffering from frostbite. But Rustem didn't fit with this having "ravine four" style injuries, he had internal bleeding (chest trauma) which probably was the primary cause of death and the skull fractures are a minor version of Nicolai's but include bruising.



August 08, 2020, 08:40:52 AM
Reply #2
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PJ


I was writing about it before that in my opinion the experiment with watches not gives much answers. The experiment was made in freezer, watches was left there by itself. In Dyatlov Group each watch was attached to hand/body that had big mass and keep warm (above zero temperature) hours after being unconscious. Generally when body temperature falls below +28 C person got unconscious, and from +28C to get frozen could takes long time depends of conditions and position of the body.

In Igor case, he was found with his hands up, so the watch was very exposed and could freeze very fast, but Rustem was face down with hands under body so it takes much longer for his watch to get frozen.

August 08, 2020, 09:09:05 AM
Reply #3
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eurocentric


Unless they all synchronised their watches with a full wind at broadly the same time how could this be relied upon? And the higher the winding the stronger the spring pressure to keep the internal mechanism ticking in cold temperatures.

For all anyone knows Igor's watch stopped earlier because he had not pre-wound it on as much as the others, and in the dire circumstances he was not checking his watch, so his stops sooner, yet he freezes to death hours later.

Rather than all 3 on the pass being involved in a fist fight/murder I suspect their knuckle injuries, which only they had across both hands (Yuri K was the only other one with knuckle injuries, but only to his right hand), were likely caused by them crawling up the pass, avoiding frostbite to their numbing fingers by walking on their fists, and in the case of Igor who had no shoes, possibly attempting to save his toes by walking on his knees (only he had kneecap injuries).

I cannot imagine Zina fighting, and male or female you always favour punches from your dominant side, yet the knuckle injuries were uniform across both hands on these 3, and unique to them.

For that reason I'm pretty sure they all died on the pass together, their individual progress/timing of demise determined by how well-insulated they were, how much blood sugar they had left, and how strong their hearts and circulations were to the bitter end. It was survival of the fittest against the elements.

August 08, 2020, 09:52:31 AM
Reply #4
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Marchesk


Quote
Rather than all 3 on the pass being involved in a fist fight/murder I suspect their knuckle injuries, which only they had across both hands (Yuri K was the only other one with knuckle injuries, but only to his right hand), were likely caused by them crawling up the pass, avoiding frostbite to their numbing fingers by walking on their fists, and in the case of Igor who had no shoes, possibly attempting to save his toes by walking on his knees (only he had kneecap injuries).

You think they were crawling back to the tent? Why not just huddle together?

August 08, 2020, 09:56:57 AM
Reply #5
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Nigel Evans


I was writing about it before that in my opinion the experiment with watches not gives much answers. The experiment was made in freezer, watches was left there by itself. In Dyatlov Group each watch was attached to hand/body that had big mass and keep warm (above zero temperature) hours after being unconscious. Generally when body temperature falls below +28 C person got unconscious, and from +28C to get frozen could takes long time depends of conditions and position of the body.

In Igor case, he was found with his hands up, so the watch was very exposed and could freeze very fast, but Rustem was face down with hands under body so it takes much longer for his watch to get frozen.
It's an interesting question whose watch would reach sub zero degrees C the fastest, Rustem's or Igor's. N.b. Igor's hands in a boxer position may have been due to resting on snow lying on top of him which reduces the wind chill, plus he was further down the slope with more shelter from vegetation? Rustem's body heat created an ice bed but the thermal conductivity of water is much much greater than air. So he should have died much more quickly (if cold was the primary cause)? The relative bladder volumes would perhaps support this (Rustem 200cm3) (Igor 1litre). As said Rustem probably died of internal bleeding anyway. Some pathologists have apparently expressed the view that only Igor clearly died of hypothermia (bladder volume) so imo a good case can be made for Rustem's body cooling considerably faster than Igor's.

If anyone doesn't understand the significance of bladder volume, ask and i'll explain.

August 08, 2020, 10:07:48 AM
Reply #6
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eurocentric


Quote
Rather than all 3 on the pass being involved in a fist fight/murder I suspect their knuckle injuries, which only they had across both hands (Yuri K was the only other one with knuckle injuries, but only to his right hand), were likely caused by them crawling up the pass, avoiding frostbite to their numbing fingers by walking on their fists, and in the case of Igor who had no shoes, possibly attempting to save his toes by walking on his knees (only he had kneecap injuries).

You think they were crawling back to the tent? Why not just huddle together?

I would suggest because they needed sustenance, food, having burned off all their calories in the fight against the cold. They have shelter and water but not the third thing they need to survive, and their blood sugars would be dangerously low in hypothermic terms. Additionally the effects of hypothermia may have affected their decision-making process, so they set off too soon.

Their plan, presumably, would be to retrieve the food, eat something at the tent, drag the rest down the pass, hole up in the den they covered with evergreen fir branches and snow, then either await rescue or make their way back to the labaz.

As regards the other 4, I'm now convinced they died of injuries/hypothermia, and these final 3 slid them into the ravine, all heads one end, and covered them with snow from the bank, to hide them from a military helicopter buzzing the area that night, possibly out looking for escapees, the same helicopter later sees these 3 on the pass the next day, lands and turns the bodies, explaining the movement post mortem.

I could well be wrong, but that is my logic - everything is about hypothermia, their behaviour, decisions, injuries, resuscitation attempts, burns during agonal stages etc - and these 3 were the strongest.

August 08, 2020, 05:37:18 PM
Reply #7
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
So there were four watches in the case files: https://dyatlovpass.com/watches?lid=1. The freezer experiment mentioned in that article has three watches stopping within 8-25 minutes of one another after 2 hours at -4F. The watches from the Chivruay incident stopping within 30 minutes of one another. Assuming this evidence applies to the Dyaltov watches (all manual wind as I understand it), we have an interesting find. Igor's watch stopped at 5:31, while Rustem and Tibo's stopped around three hours later. That would seem to indicate Igor died three hours earlier than those two.

Which means Rustem wasn't one of the first to die, as some have thought, and his skull fracture must have come later. It would also mean he and Igor were not going back to the tent together along with Zina. We can also roughly guess at how long Igor was outside the tent. If it took his watch two and half hours to stop working after he collapsed, and the group abandoned the tent sometime around dinner or shortly after, then that's 6-7 hours. 

It also raises the question of what Rustem was doing three hours after Igor collapsed on the slope. Why was he on an exposed slope 10 hours after leaving the tent, give or take an hour? And why was Igor three hours earlier in s?


ASSUMING  !  ?  Assumptions  !  ? 
DB

August 08, 2020, 05:38:16 PM
Reply #8
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
An excellent piece of detective work! I've long held the view that Igor never got down the slope but was whacked by something similar to Zinaida and perhaps the 2Yuris who did get to the cedar eventually badly injured and suffering from frostbite. But Rustem didn't fit with this having "ravine four" style injuries, he had internal bleeding (chest trauma) which probably was the primary cause of death and the skull fractures are a minor version of Nicolai's but include bruising.

Based on ASSUMPTIONS.
DB

August 08, 2020, 11:52:35 PM
Reply #9
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Marchesk


Based on ASSUMPTIONS.

Yes, that's what we're left with. Trying to make sense of the evidence to figure out what happened. All the many theories have to make assumptions. They create a narrative that fits the evidence as best it can. In the case of the watches, I don't know what making the assumptions in the OP accomplishes. It's just something else to think about. We have our incomplete puzzle that people keep trying to fit together, guessing at the missing pieces.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 12:03:11 AM by Marchesk »

August 08, 2020, 11:59:05 PM
Reply #10
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Marchesk


I would suggest because they needed sustenance, food, having burned off all their calories in the fight against the cold. They have shelter and water but not the third thing they need to survive, and their blood sugars would be dangerously low in hypothermic terms. Additionally the effects of hypothermia may have affected their decision-making process, so they set off too soon.

So my problem with going back to the tent is that it doesn't make sense. If you're abandoning the tent without taking anything other than what you're wearing at the time to try and survive the night in the woods below, then what reason would there be to change your mind hours later once hypothermia has started setting in? Going back uphill exposed in a weakened condition is speeding up freezing to death. And what made them think the situation at the tent was any better?

Maybe this is explained by their mental state, and maybe they had some reason to believe the tent situation was improved. But it remains dubious to me.


August 09, 2020, 12:59:36 AM
Reply #11
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sparrow


Hello Nigel.

I do not understand the significance of bladder volume.  I have read that someone suffering from hypothermia reaches a point where they can no longer urinate.  And elsewhere, I read that urinating is one of the last things a person does before dying from hypothermia.  I know there are people on this forum who could/can give us the answers to a lot of the questions that are addressed here, but it can be hard to tell the knowledgeable people from the others. rus1    But no, I do not know much about dying from hypothermia.   
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 01:05:49 AM by sparrow »

August 09, 2020, 03:55:36 AM
Reply #12
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Nigel Evans


I would suggest because they needed sustenance, food, having burned off all their calories in the fight against the cold. They have shelter and water but not the third thing they need to survive, and their blood sugars would be dangerously low in hypothermic terms. Additionally the effects of hypothermia may have affected their decision-making process, so they set off too soon.

So my problem with going back to the tent is that it doesn't make sense. If you're abandoning the tent without taking anything other than what you're wearing at the time to try and survive the night in the woods below, then what reason would there be to change your mind hours later once hypothermia has started setting in? Going back uphill exposed in a weakened condition is speeding up freezing to death. And what made them think the situation at the tent was any better?

Maybe this is explained by their mental state, and maybe they had some reason to believe the tent situation was improved. But it remains dubious to me.
If it's daylight and people are still dying then your only chance is to get back to the tent, get in your kit, get on your skis and get out of there?

August 09, 2020, 04:34:22 AM
Reply #13
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Nigel Evans


Hello Nigel.

I do not understand the significance of bladder volume.  I have read that someone suffering from hypothermia reaches a point where they can no longer urinate.  And elsewhere, I read that urinating is one of the last things a person does before dying from hypothermia.  I know there are people on this forum who could/can give us the answers to a lot of the questions that are addressed here, but it can be hard to tell the knowledgeable people from the others. rus1    But no, I do not know much about dying from hypothermia.   
The theory as i understand it is that your body will fight extreme cold by restricting the blood flow to the limbs in order to maintain a core temperature to protect the main organs. This reduces the space for the same volume of blood which inturn increases it's pressure. This causes the kidneys (that filter the blood) to respond to the increased pressure by "dumping" unnecessary fluid as urine in order to rebalance the pressure. At the same this is taking place the victim is descending from higher orders of conciousness (like standing and deciding to urinate) into a semi concious state (lying down probably in a foetal position). So hypothermia victims (those that die slowly of cold) are found with a maximum bladder volume circa 1 litre.

Cold can kill you much more swiftly of course. Survival times in water at 0C are  30 to 45 minutes even if dressed. So it would seem Rustem's ice bed is relevant to his survival time, if his clothing was wet then this speeds up his demise as it greatly improves thermal conduction. So the modest bladder volume of 200cm3 fits.



August 09, 2020, 10:20:46 AM
Reply #14
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PJ


Cold can kill you much more swiftly of course. Survival times in water at 0C are  30 to 45 minutes even if dressed. So it would seem Rustem's ice bed is relevant to his survival time, if his clothing was wet then this speeds up his demise as it greatly improves thermal conduction. So the modest bladder volume of 200cm3 fits.
Ice bed under body mean that this person was alive for a longer period of time in this position before dead and the body temperature dropped below freezing. Ice bed is created by heat exchange and it not mean at all that his clothes have to be wet to create it.

And I was always curious about the bladder volume of Igor, the normal bladder volume is about 400m3, so why his is more than twice above norm?

August 09, 2020, 11:32:26 AM
Reply #15
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Nigel Evans


Cold can kill you much more swiftly of course. Survival times in water at 0C are  30 to 45 minutes even if dressed. So it would seem Rustem's ice bed is relevant to his survival time, if his clothing was wet then this speeds up his demise as it greatly improves thermal conduction. So the modest bladder volume of 200cm3 fits.
Ice bed under body mean that this person was alive for a longer period of time in this position before dead and the body temperature dropped below freezing. Ice bed is created by heat exchange and it not mean at all that his clothes have to be wet to create it.

And I was always curious about the bladder volume of Igor, the normal bladder volume is about 400m3, so why his is more than twice above norm?
No an ice bed could mean that he laid down with a fever or some form of inflamation (chest/head trauma?) perhaps compared to Igor who laid down due to hypothermia = lower temp. If the ice bed was wetting his clothes then it would substantially speed death from cold.



August 09, 2020, 03:36:06 PM
Reply #16
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Ting


Hello Nigel.

I do not understand the significance of bladder volume.  I have read that someone suffering from hypothermia reaches a point where they can no longer urinate.  And elsewhere, I read that urinating is one of the last things a person does before dying from hypothermia.  I know there are people on this forum who could/can give us the answers to a lot of the questions that are addressed here, but it can be hard to tell the knowledgeable people from the others. rus1    But no, I do not know much about dying from hypothermia.   
The theory as i understand it is that your body will fight extreme cold by restricting the blood flow to the limbs in order to maintain a core temperature to protect the main organs. This reduces the space for the same volume of blood which inturn increases it's pressure. This causes the kidneys (that filter the blood) to respond to the increased pressure by "dumping" unnecessary fluid as urine in order to rebalance the pressure. At the same this is taking place the victim is descending from higher orders of conciousness (like standing and deciding to urinate) into a semi concious state (lying down probably in a foetal position). So hypothermia victims (those that die slowly of cold) are found with a maximum bladder volume circa 1 litre.

Cold can kill you much more swiftly of course. Survival times in water at 0C are  30 to 45 minutes even if dressed. So it would seem Rustem's ice bed is relevant to his survival time, if his clothing was wet then this speeds up his demise as it greatly improves thermal conduction. So the modest bladder volume of 200cm3 fits.

Useful guide:
The normal bladder capacity before you feel any sensation of urge is about 300ml (10 oz.)
The volume of urine passed each time by a normal adult will vary from around 250-500 ml with the largest voiding being after getting up which can be as high as 500ml. Typically, there are 6-8 voidings in a 24 hr period reaching a daily total of 1,500ml to 2,000ml of urine. The average refill rate for an adult male bladder is about 60ml per hour (dependent on fluid intake, presence of cold diuresis etc.)
Igor’s 1,000ml autopsy figure is intriguing.
Under normal circumstances it would take nearly 17 hours to reach 1,000ml at 60ml per hour without any voiding.
This figure makes no sense unless you factor in hypothermia’s effect on bladder refill rate. I cannot find any data on the rate of refill during hypothermia only that it is increased due to cold diuresis as correctly outlined by Nigel Evans.
Let’s consider the scenario where Igor has 250ml of urine (just below urge level) just before the tent egress. Let’s assume the hypothermia increases the bladder refill rate by 2-3 times but remembering that hypothermia would not commence for a certain amount of time - let’s suggest about 2 hours. So starting from 250ml we can add 120ml for the 2 hours at normal refill rate then it would take another 5 ¼ hours if hypothermia doubled the rate and another 3 ½ hours if hypothermia tripled the refill rate to reach the 1,000ml recorded. This points to between 5 ½ - 7 ¼ hours after the tent egress that Igor died (supported by the 5:31 watch time). Even if you allow for 350ml of urine before egress then this still means a minimum time of just under 5 hours until time of death. In either case, the idea that Igor died on his journey down the slope within an hour or two, seems implausible. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 03:44:33 PM by Ting »

August 09, 2020, 08:03:40 PM
Reply #17
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Georgi


So there were four watches in the case files: https://dyatlovpass.com/watches?lid=1. The freezer experiment mentioned in that article has three watches stopping within 8-25 minutes of one another after 2 hours at -4F. The watches from the Chivruay incident stopping within 30 minutes of one another. Assuming this evidence applies to the Dyaltov watches (all manual wind as I understand it), we have an interesting find. Igor's watch stopped at 5:31, while Rustem and Tibo's stopped around three hours later. That would seem to indicate Igor died three hours earlier than those two.
The problem with this theory is that we don’t know if Rustem’s Watch stopped 3 hours later or 9 hours earlier. As they were all analog watches we cannot determine when they stopped working(am/pm), we can look at all the evidence together and make an educated guess on the order but the reality is the watches don’t really provide that much information. We don’t know the details about the watches, if they were tested during the investigation, when the times were recorder, were they recorded at the time of discovery which gives a more accurate picture or were they recorded at time of autopsy or post autopsy. What I am getting at is did the investigators write down the time when the watch was frozen or did they not bother and someone wrote it down after they had thawed out and ran out of power.

Quote
Which means Rustem wasn't one of the first to die, as some have thought, and his skull fracture must have come later. It would also mean he and Igor were not going back to the tent together along with Zina. We can also roughly guess at how long Igor was outside the tent. If it took his watch two and half hours to stop working after he collapsed, and the group abandoned the tent sometime around dinner or shortly after, then that's 6-7 hours.
Again it basically boils down to if they left the tent at between 6-7 and there was an altercation at the tent site where he was injured, by the time he collapsed, died and his watch froze it could have been 8:45 pm.

Quote
It also raises the question of what Rustem was doing three hours after Igor collapsed on the slope. Why was he on an exposed slope 10 hours after leaving the tent, give or take an hour? And why was Igor three hours earlier in such bad shape that he could only go a few hundred meters? Igor did not have significant injuries.

Igor had been out of the tent in the elements while poorly dressed for close to 10 hours at time of death, he was likely weakened by the cold, exhaustion and likely couldn’t make it far. He was the leader of the group so I would imagine he felt responsible for the situation they found themselves in, he might have pushed himself harder during the night and just ran out of energy. I know we are talking about a fit, young man but everyone has a limit and he might have reached his.

August 09, 2020, 08:07:21 PM
Reply #18
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Georgi


But Rustem didn't fit with this having "ravine four" style injuries, he had internal bleeding (chest trauma) which probably was the primary cause of death and the skull fractures are a minor version of Nicolai's but include bruising.
Rustem's injuries were on both hands at the knuckles indicating a fist fight, and the facial injuries also indicate a fist fight. His head injuries were severe enough that he was likely disoriented and weakened which would likely mean that he died shortly after the fight.

August 09, 2020, 08:19:02 PM
Reply #19
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Georgi


Rather than all 3 on the pass being involved in a fist fight/murder I suspect their knuckle injuries, which only they had across both hands (Yuri K was the only other one with knuckle injuries, but only to his right hand), were likely caused by them crawling up the pass, avoiding frostbite to their numbing fingers by walking on their fists, and in the case of Igor who had no shoes, possibly attempting to save his toes by walking on his knees (only he had kneecap injuries).
Problem here is that trying to walk on your knuckles would be painful and you wont be able to sustain it for long. Using the fist as support could be used while still awkward and painful it could be used longer but then it would be frostbite on the knuckles and fingers up to the middle joint rather than bruising on the knuckle itself.

Quote
I cannot imagine Zina fighting, and male or female you always favour punches from your dominant side, yet the knuckle injuries were uniform across both hands on these 3, and unique to them.
I can very much imagine Zina fighting, we have no indication that she was a pacifist and if the 3 guys instigated a fight I don't see why she would not join in on the fight especially if one of her friends was injured and they kept hitting him. As for the injuries to their hands? They were in a brawl, they would bunch with both hands as fast as they can, they wont hold back and punch with one hand.

Quote
For that reason I'm pretty sure they all died on the pass together, their individual progress/timing of demise determined by how well-insulated they were, how much blood sugar they had left, and how strong their hearts and circulations were to the bitter end. It was survival of the fittest against the elements.
I don't think anyone is disputing that they died a the pass together, its just that they died at different times and by different causes.

August 09, 2020, 08:23:11 PM
Reply #20
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Georgi



It's an interesting question whose watch would reach sub zero degrees C the fastest, Rustem's or Igor's. N.b. Igor's hands in a boxer position may have been due to resting on snow lying on top of him which reduces the wind chill, plus he was further down the slope with more shelter from vegetation? Rustem's body heat created an ice bed but the thermal conductivity of water is much much greater than air. So he should have died much more quickly (if cold was the primary cause)? The relative bladder volumes would perhaps support this (Rustem 200cm3) (Igor 1litre). As said Rustem probably died of internal bleeding anyway. Some pathologists have apparently expressed the view that only Igor clearly died of hypothermia (bladder volume) so imo a good case can be made for Rustem's body cooling considerably faster than Igor's.

If anyone doesn't understand the significance of bladder volume, ask and i'll explain.

Chances are that Rustem died the night before on the descent from the tent, he was still relatively warm and died because of his injuries. Igor on the other hand had been outside in the cold poorly dressed for the better part of 10 hours at the time of death so likely he was already exhausted, cold and the temperature was much lower as well.

August 09, 2020, 08:26:00 PM
Reply #21
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Georgi


I would suggest because they needed sustenance, food, having burned off all their calories in the fight against the cold. They have shelter and water but not the third thing they need to survive, and their blood sugars would be dangerously low in hypothermic terms. Additionally the effects of hypothermia may have affected their decision-making process, so they set off too soon.

So my problem with going back to the tent is that it doesn't make sense. If you're abandoning the tent without taking anything other than what you're wearing at the time to try and survive the night in the woods below, then what reason would there be to change your mind hours later once hypothermia has started setting in? Going back uphill exposed in a weakened condition is speeding up freezing to death. And what made them think the situation at the tent was any better?

Maybe this is explained by their mental state, and maybe they had some reason to believe the tent situation was improved. But it remains dubious to me.

Going down towards the tree line gave them a chance for survival, by 4 am they had already lost 3 people and now their chances of survival were at very near to zero and it was certain death from the cold or almost certain death at the tent.

August 10, 2020, 03:20:17 AM
Reply #22
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Nigel Evans


In either case, the idea that Igor died on his journey down the slope within an hour or two, seems implausible.
Hi Ting, not if he was mentally or physically incapacitated. E.g. if he was going blind. His corneas are described as "opaque", n.b. the other four have "cloudy" corneas.
Without good eyesight he could have just stumbled around through treeline vegetation picking up a lot of scratches on his ankles and wrists until he gave up.

August 10, 2020, 03:23:35 AM
Reply #23
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Nigel Evans



Chances are that Rustem died the night before on the descent from the tent, he was still relatively warm and died because of his injuries. Igor on the other hand had been outside in the cold poorly dressed for the better part of 10 hours at the time of death so likely he was already exhausted, cold and the temperature was much lower as well.
Not if Rustem had been in the den. Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket and his jacket unfastened.

August 10, 2020, 04:32:29 AM
Reply #24
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Ting


In either case, the idea that Igor died on his journey down the slope within an hour or two, seems implausible.
Hi Ting, not if he was mentally or physically incapacitated. E.g. if he was going blind. His corneas are described as "opaque", n.b. the other four have "cloudy" corneas.
Without good eyesight he could have just stumbled around through treeline vegetation picking up a lot of scratches on his ankles and wrists until he gave up.

Hi Nigel, yes if he was stumbling around incapacitated that might explain things but then you would have to accept that he did an excellent job of staying on course with the others given that his final position did not deviate very far from Rustem or Zina or on a line from the tent to the Cedar tree. With regard to the blindness, it is generally accepted in the forensic community that the cornea becomes increasingly opaque with a longer time after death period. significantly opaque corneas are to be expected in cadavers that have been dead for >30hrs so those autopsy findings are to be expected.
https://www.hilarispublisher.com/open-access/estimating-the-time-after-death-on-the-basis-of-corneal-opacity-2157-7145.1000269.pdf


August 10, 2020, 04:58:02 AM
Reply #25
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Nigel Evans


In either case, the idea that Igor died on his journey down the slope within an hour or two, seems implausible.
Hi Ting, not if he was mentally or physically incapacitated. E.g. if he was going blind. His corneas are described as "opaque", n.b. the other four have "cloudy" corneas.
Without good eyesight he could have just stumbled around through treeline vegetation picking up a lot of scratches on his ankles and wrists until he gave up.

Hi Nigel, yes if he was stumbling around incapacitated that might explain things but then you would have to accept that he did an excellent job of staying on course with the others given that his final position did not deviate very far from Rustem or Zina or on a line from the tent to the Cedar tree. With regard to the blindness, it is generally accepted in the forensic community that the cornea becomes increasingly opaque with a longer time after death period. significantly opaque corneas are to be expected in cadavers that have been dead for >30hrs so those autopsy findings are to be expected.
https://www.hilarispublisher.com/open-access/estimating-the-time-after-death-on-the-basis-of-corneal-opacity-2157-7145.1000269.pdf
Excellent link, what's your profession if i might ask?
Well Igor's corneas are labelled as opaque but Rustem and Zinaida are labelled as cloudy... It's reasonable to assume that they were dead for the same number of days. Igor would have been more sheltered during this period than the other two bodies on the slope so perhaps this pushed decomposition along a bit more.

It could be that Igor was simply unlucky and found deep wind drift snow covering treeline vegetation (brambles/branches etc) that the other group had avoided. That's the only simple explanation for the "scratches" including those similar to YuriK's, otherwise you're descending into the "alternative theories", particularly metal objects.



August 10, 2020, 09:53:45 PM
Reply #26
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Georgi


Not if Rustem had been in the den. Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket and his jacket unfastened.
What does Nicolai have to do with Rustem? They died in two different locations about 500 meters apart.

August 11, 2020, 02:52:19 AM
Reply #27
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eurocentric


Problem here is that trying to walk on your knuckles would be painful and you wont be able to sustain it for long. Using the fist as support could be used while still awkward and painful it could be used longer but then it would be frostbite on the knuckles and fingers up to the middle joint rather than bruising on the knuckle itself.[/unquote]

They are crawling uphill, so most of their body weight is shifted to their legs. They are returning to the tent for food and other items, if they do not protect their fingers they will not be able to eat, dress, do anything when they get there, due to the numbing effects of frostbite.

Quote
I can very much imagine Zina fighting, we have no indication that she was a pacifist and if the 3 guys instigated a fight I don't see why she would not join in on the fight especially if one of her friends was injured and they kept hitting him. As for the injuries to their hands? They were in a brawl, they would bunch with both hands as fast as they can, they wont hold back and punch with one hand.[/unquote]

Their dominant hand would always have the worst of the fighting injuries, yet the injuries are uniform. This petite woman would be no match against males fighting, they rarely are, yet she supposedly has the same level of fighting injuries.


August 11, 2020, 03:01:31 AM
Reply #28
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Nigel Evans


Not if Rustem had been in the den. Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket and his jacket unfastened.
What does Nicolai have to do with Rustem? They died in two different locations about 500 meters apart.
Rustem's has ravine style injuries including internal bleeding. Same injuries, same event?

August 11, 2020, 03:02:57 AM
Reply #29
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eurocentric


Reference Rustem and the ice bed, he may not have been the only one.

From this site:
 
"Rustem's body was with icy bed under from the hardening of the thawing snow. This means that the body fell when relatively still warm and there was a noticeable heat exchange into the environment. This observation and conclusion was mentioned in Akselrod's testimony, but he hasn't seen the rest of the bodies when they were found, so if Akselrod was the only one registering the fact, then the rest just might as well have icy beds that nobody testified about. At least we have one dying spot that looks like hasn't been doctored."