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Author Topic: The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass  (Read 7036 times)

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September 29, 2023, 04:16:06 AM
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Teddy

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The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass

The radioactive contamination in the Dyatlov case is one of the most complicated, controversial and unclear subjects we could come across. On top of the mind boggling fact why did the lead investigator order a radioactive test only on the last four bodies found in May and not on the first found in February-March, why order the tests on first place and then not taking in consideration the outcome at all, we can not agree on what the results tell us. I have discussed the subject with seasoned Russian nuclear physicist Igor Pavlov, and nuclear power researcher graduate from Arizona State University Brian Pierce. From what I can understand their opinions on the Radiological Analysis Report do not overlap.   Read more →
 
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October 02, 2023, 06:53:35 AM
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Ryan


Thanks, Teddy, for the opportunity to comment on this!

I'm saddened that any further "debate" between me and Igor is impossible due to his passing. I would have loved to discuss all this with him, especially because I believe what I am hypothesizing would fit in with his and Teddy's theory published in their book 1079. While there are a few areas of disagreement, I see we also do agree on a lot.

I wrote what I did before being able to review Igor's notes, and I see we both came to the same conclusion that Levashov's radiological analysis does not necessarily require that a pure beta emitter contaminated the clothing, which would be extremely rare, but instead we both suggest that a combined beta/gamma emitter did it, such that beta emission was above the limit of detection and gamma emission below the limit of detection. Igor and I both consider a pure beta emitter, which he notes Rakitin suggested, as highly unlikely. Now I am not aware of Rakitin's hypothesis. I'd appreciate it if someone could please point me to it.

I am currently in grad school, so my time to respond is limited. But I'll address what I can over time here. To start, Igor and Teddy both note the nagging question of why Ivanov ordered the tests in the first place. Ivanov himself addresses this in the case files:

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-370

It seems Ivanov is referring here to criminal procedure, specifically "Articles 63 and 171 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR." I have no idea where to find the version of this Code of Criminal Procedure that would have been current in 1959, and it would be interesting to see what it says. Still, it seems to me by context that Ivanov did this because the procedures require it. Clearly, this kind of analysis can't be done on every unexplained death. It's my impression that Ivanov first became aware that the bodies' clothing, and possibly the bodies themselves, were emitting radiation, so it obligated him to order such an analysis. This makes sense. Dead bodies shouldn't be found wearing clothing with that much radioactive contamination, so it is important for a prosecutor to investigate. The prosecutor, once told, can't simply decide to ignore it.

Now how could Ivanov have known? Who told him? How did they know? Those are excellent questions, and I don't know.

I did speak with an acquaintance who does search and rescue in mountainous terrain for living hikers, and forensic search and recovery of hikers who likely died. She thought it very odd that anyone would bring something like a Geiger counter on a search and rescue mission. People who do S&R in this kind of terrain typically want to keep their weight down, so they carry the bare minimum essential gear. A Geiger counter, especially in 1959, is completely unnecessary weight so I can't picture anyone wanting to take one into a mountain range on a S&R mission.

Why did Ivanov order testing on just the last four bodies? My guess is that this has to do with timing. The first five bodies had been found, removed from the mountain, autopsied, returned to the families, and buried before the four in the ravine were found. If a Geiger counter were present, either on the mountain or at the morgue in Ivdel, but only after the last four bodies were discovered, and someone decided to switch it on and check the bodies for some unknown reason. found radiation to their surprise, and reported it to Ivanov, it sounds like this would have obligated Ivanov to order the analysis on these four bodies and their clothing.

It looks like Ivanov was doing the minimum amount of work necessary here. Levashov's report is very curious, but it doesn't suggest an acute health hazard either to the hikers when they were alive or the rescuers and investigators. A person trying to find the truth would want to know whether the other five bodies had contaminated clothing, too, or if it was just limited to the four in the ravine, but a prosecutor may be motivated to close the case quickly with minimal work and expense. I don't know whether the clothing found on the first five bodies was retained as evidence. If so, I'd think it would be easy to check. But the key here is that if the first five bodies were never initially checked with a Geiger counter, then they weren't known to be contaminated, and they weren't found in the same place as the bodies with contaminated clothing, so it would not have obligated Ivanov to investigate. In other words, Ivanov couldn't have ignored someone telling him that they found radioactive contamination on the last four bodies without violating criminal procedure. But if nobody ever checked whether the first five bodies were contaminated, nobody could have told him that they were contaminated too. Criminal procedure didn't require Ivanov to check, so he could safely ignore it and nobody could fault him for doing so. And why make extra work for himself and a technical expert if doing so wasn't required?

Because we don't know the circumstances around all this, we can't really know if the first five bodies were contaminated too but nobody bothered to check, or if only the four in the ravine were contaminated. This would be very interesting, but unless someone finds their clothing bagged up on a shelf in a dusty police warehouse somewhere, we'll probably never know.
 

October 02, 2023, 02:59:08 PM
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Ziljoe


Fascinating information, to me at least. Ive largely ignored the radioactive element of the case, mostly as I know little about the topic and most of what i have read seems to be contradictory ( as is everything).

I've been reading and looking at old posts but I'm not sure of the chronological appearance of the Geiger counter.

Do we know when it was first introduced or reported being used at the search area?.

There is the report of it being a dosimeter,which I understand is a different tool to measure exposure to radiative transfer over a period of time. I don't know if that's a translation error and if its meant to be Geiger counter.

Perhaps the reason for taking a measuring device to the area ,( it has been suggested before) was that there had been numerous reports of balls, lights and large objects in the sky , these were told directly to Ivanov by the other hiking groups and first searcher's. The dates of these sightings coincide with the timeline of the dp9 .

There would seem to have been rocket or missile activities in the Urals  and the need for a dosimeter may have in the first instance  just been precaution?.

I guess it all depends on how the reports come in to those making the decisions and then , their reactions?

The first bodies are buried quite quickly, the main suspicion is that they froze after having to leave the tent . There's speculation of various theories within the search teams and one is the missile and Ivanov may have ordered the testing of the clothes as a result of having come to dead ends. He was just exploring all avenues perhaps.

As to why they found results on the clothes is definitely strange. I would have thought that the items , clothing in the tent and the tent itself should have been tested also?




 

October 02, 2023, 07:21:17 PM
Reply #3
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Ziljoe


Another thought or reason for testing may have been the reported colour changes in the skin. If Ivanov wasn't aware of the changes to skin colour , this might be another reason to request the tests.
 

October 03, 2023, 11:47:01 AM
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Ziljoe


Hi Ryan,

I've read your letter with your thoughts about potassium hydroxide (a cousin of lye, sodium hydroxide) as a possible explanation for the test results.

I have zero knowledge about your field of expertise but you explain it in a way that I can understand. ( I think) .

I'm probably going to embarrass myself but I'd like to ask a couple of questions, they may either lead to a possible reason for the contamination or stop my reasoning in its tracks.

Is it a possibility that any potassium hydroxide contamination could come from a clinical, cleaning formula?

And

What would be a significant amount of potassium to get the results?


My reasoning is that I've read potash, lye or potassium is used in cleaning products. Obviously, an autopsy room will need cleaned and the ravine 4 were decomposing.
I don't know what chemicals they would have at the time for disinfecting rooms or tables etc, but I think there are two possible accidental opportunities for contamination.

My first thought would be applying or covering some chemical over the ravine 4 bodies before putting them in bags for the helicopter transportation.

My second thought comes from the nurse that stated the bodies were filthy and they were washed. ( I'll need to double check) but could strong cleaning chemicals containing potassium be enough to get those kind of readings? If concentrated?

It is your thoughts regarding all the 9 clothes were contaminated and the problem of how this could occur that has influenced my thoughts.



 

October 03, 2023, 01:45:47 PM
Reply #5
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Axelrod


See https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2?rbid=18461
Question 2 / Answer
"No, he did not say anything about why he decided to check their clothes for radiation. He changed the topic. Much later, almost this year, I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing."
 

October 03, 2023, 02:03:40 PM
Reply #6
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Ziljoe


See https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2?rbid=18461
Question 2 / Answer
"No, he did not say anything about why he decided to check their clothes for radiation. He changed the topic. Much later, almost this year, I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing."

I don't understand the dialogue in the link.

I'm not sure who's asking who what and when these lawyers come into play? Why would Ivanov have clothes lying on his floor ? Were they clothes from the tent? Were they the clothes from the first 5 bodies found in march or the clothes from the ravine 4?.

I need help here , what radiation causes a glow? If any clothes were "glowing " why did others not see "glowing" items?
 

October 03, 2023, 02:10:51 PM
Reply #7
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Ziljoe


 I don't think the human eye can detect / see radioactive glow? , Hence Geiger counters ....
 

October 03, 2023, 02:14:21 PM
Reply #8
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Ziljoe


To add, I think this is why dosimeters exist.( I could be completely wrong)
 

October 03, 2023, 02:35:31 PM
Reply #9
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Ziljoe


From a quick Google

Do radioactive things glow in the dark?

The short answer to your question is "no," radioactive things do not glow in the dark - not by themselves anyway. Radiation emitted by radioactive materials is not visible to the human eye. However, there are ways to"convert" this invisible energy to visible light. Many substances will emit visible light if "stimulated" by the ionizing radiation from radioactive material. These materials are known as "fluors" or "scintilators." So, by mixing some radioactive material with such a fluor, you can make a substance that glows. This kind of material has been used in things like the faces of clocks, watches, and instruments on ships and airplanes to make them visible in the dark. This is why most people think of glowing things when they think of radioactive materials.


Someone is talking bull to ell a book or two or if clothes are glowing , something serious is going on.
 

October 04, 2023, 01:49:57 PM
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eurocentric


We now know that there is a magnetic anomaly on the Dyatlov Pass, the whole area appears to be peppered with them. Some of these may be caused by uranium ores and similar radioactive minerals, that presumably is part of the reason for the search, so if someone from a rescue party gets out a geiger counter rocks beneath snow may trigger a reading higher than normal background radiation, like radon gas does when it seeps into the ground floor of some houses.

This may have caused the area to, quite innocently, be declared radioactive, as in naturally occurring, and gossip spread among the rescuers about a military cover-up. And then when articles of two hikers clothing were found to be much higher than background radiation, and even when following a decontamination process of being saturated by running water for 3 months, it was further suggestive of the idea that a nuclear device was used on the pass, when, perhaps, all that happened was two coincidental things, both with a simple explanation, came together.

Dead Mountain, a barren peak, may be so-called because no substantive vegetation grows there due to the radioactivity in the rocks?
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

October 04, 2023, 02:41:43 PM
Reply #11
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Ziljoe


Totally agree that many of the reports or theories will come from coincidence . It's half the battle to unwind when things were said, by who and why.

However, we do have something tangible with the radioactive reports. It's a factual document and it is recorded in the case files.

If I understand Ryan correctly, he is surmising through a process of elimination. All 9 pieces of clothing were above background levels. 3 of these 9 samples were above expected safety levels at the time. If the contamination to these clothes happened before they were found in the ravine, the question is where did it come from. What has been proposed in the past i,s that the contamination may have come from two of the hikers that worked in nuclear work places, however it seems that radioactive contamination can't jump from one set of clothes to another that easily.

Plus we have the argument that if the contamination happened pre discovery of the ravine 4 , then all the readings would be much higher as the water would have some what cleaned the clothes that were tested.

As I understand it, it doesn't fit with the nature of radioactive contamination or exposure.

So we have an anomaly ( to add to all the others) . Were the clothes some how contaminated after the ravine 4s discovery. The readings were taken after in a controlled environment. Were they moved by stagers and then placed as teddy and Igor's theory , then covered in pot ash. Hence the odd readings.

It's a quandary I've never given much thought to in the past but Ryan has put a new observations to it.
 

October 05, 2023, 11:40:04 AM
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Partorg


.Igor Pavlov is apparently right and on clothes dirt from EURT. 
The container with nuclear waste that exploded in September 1957 contained mainly r/nuclides: ¹⁴⁴Ce, ¹⁴⁴Pr, ⁹⁵Nb, ⁹⁵Zr, ⁹⁰Sr, ¹³⁷Cs,
Of these, the first 4 are short-lived - T½ from 17.28 minutes. (¹⁴⁴Pr) up to 291 days (¹⁴⁴Ce) Thus, by May 1959, only long-lived ¹³⁷Cs (T½ = 30 years) and ⁹⁰Sr (28 years) were active
Strontium 90 is a pure β emitter. Cesium137 also decays in beta and only the product of its decay - Ba¹³⁷m transforms into stable ¹³⁷Ba with the emission of a γ-quantum with  an energy of 661.7 keV, which is 4.5 times lower than the γ-sensitivity threshold of the TISS radiometer that was used by expert Levashov.


Accepting this hypothesis would limit the flight of fantasies about the mechanism and circumstances of infection to two or three variants. One of them was once proposed on taina li by a user writing under the nickname Yellow horror, and looked as follows: As part of measures to minimize the consequences of the 1957 Kyshtym accident, r/nuclide-contaminated items, primarily clothing, were confiscated from residents of evacuated settlements on a compensatory basis. These items had to be stockpiled somewhere before burial. The natural solution would have been to store them at collection points for so-called secondary raw materials, i.e., any, mostly textile, junk suitable for recycling. Since there was no proven method of action in a situation that had arisen for the first time, there was no strict sequence in actions, and a pile of rags dumped somewhere temporarily could well have been forgotten so tightly that it may still be there. One of Kolevatov’s fellow students who had access to such a point (who worked part-time as a janitor there, for example), having learned from Kolevatov about problems with warm clothing for a hike, remembered a bunch of pretty good things in the far corner of one of the warehouses. Of course, he had no idea where the clothes came from or what they represented in terms of nuclear physics...
This is exactly how three sweaters appeared in the memory of Kolevatov’s sisters, Rimma, which he got somewhere on the last day before leaving and brought home “smuggled” - putting all three on himself. One of them later ended up on Dubinina, and the third went unnoticed. Bottom of ski pants. Kolevatov “powdered” strontium-90, when was sorting through a pile of clothes, choosing the best. Dubinina's jacket, with which Zolotarev was covered, and his vest picked up what the stream washed out of Kolevatov's sweater, and Thibault lay in the middle of the stream, where the speed of the water flow was greatest, and almost nothing lingered on him


Quote from: Ryan
It seems Ivanov is referring here to criminal procedure, specifically "Articles 63 and 171 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR." I have no idea where to find the version of this Code of Criminal Procedure that would have been current in 1959, and it would be interesting to see what it says.
http://museumreforms.ru/node/13986
Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR. 1923 - 1961


Art. 63.  Experts are called in cases where special knowledge in science, art or craft is needed during an investigation or consideration of a case.


Notes 1. The calling of experts is mandatory to establish the causes of death and the nature of bodily injuries, as well as to determine the mental state of the accused or witness in cases where the court or the investigator has doubts about this.


2. The procedure for calling and giving an examination is determined in these cases by special instructions issued by the People's Commissariat of Justice in agreement with the People's Commissariat of Health


Art. 171. The investigator outlines to the expert the points on which an opinion should be given. The accused has the right to present in writing those questions on which an expert should give an opinion. The expert has the right, with the permission of the investigator, to get acquainted with those circumstances of the case, the clarification of which is necessary for him to give an opinion.


Note. If the expert finds that the materials provided to him by the investigator are insufficient to give an opinion, he draws up a report on the impossibility of giving an opinion. In these cases, the limits of the preliminary investigation materials that must be provided to the expert are resolved by the prosecutor or the court with jurisdiction over the case.




As for Ivanov’s motive for appointing a physical and technical examination, it was most likely an intuitive reaction to talk of strange observations on February 17 and March 31. For the fewliterate Kuzminov and Syunikaev, they were transformed into a “cannonade”, into fireballs hitting the mountain tops, into clouds with hypnotic abilities, and for Ivanov, who may have heard something about the Kyshtym accident, they gave rise to a desire to check the corpses for radioactivity.
Just in case.


Quote from: eurocentric
Dead Mountain, a barren peak, may be so-called because no substantive vegetation grows there due to the radioactivity in the rocks?
Information about dosimetering of Mount Kholat-Syakhyl in 1959 exists only at the level of vague rumors. There is no reliable information on this matter.
In our time, dosimeters were not carried there only by the blind, deaf, and mute.
They didn’t find a single extra micro-roentgen.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 01:43:36 PM by Partorg »
 

March 17, 2024, 08:09:35 AM
Reply #13
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gunmat


First, I want to say that I am not an expert in the field. My knowledge is superficial and stems from a course in elementary atomic physics, as part of my engineering studies several decades ago, and from reading publications by Rosalie Bertell, (RIP), and others.
--
I have read Levashov's report, comments from Igor Pavlov, and Ryan Pierce's remarks. Levashov's analysis, from 1959, only shows beta radiation. This limits the radiation source to materials used extensively in civil industry. Some are mentioned here, but the list could be longer.
--
Iodine (I) is used in medicine, especially in the production of radioactive isotopes used in diagnostics and treatment of various diseases, such as thyroid problems.
-
Tritium is used in self-luminous objects like emergency exits, emergency signs, and clocks. It is also used in some medical diagnostic tools.
Cobalt-60 (Co-60) is used in medical radiation therapy and industrial radiography.
-
Carbon-14 (C-14) is used in carbon dating.
-
Strontium-90 (Sr-90) is found in the environment after nuclear tests and nuclear accidents. Strontium nitrate is used in fireworks to produce red colors. It is also used as pigments in ceramics, glass, and paints, providing a range of red colors. Strontium can be added to certain types of steel to enhance properties such as strength and formability. It can also help reduce porosity in cast steel products. Historically, strontium compounds were used in cathode-ray tube screens. Strontium compounds are used in some flame retardants. In other words, Strontium has broad applications in civil industry.

Igor Pavlov mentions in his comment that it is unlikely that only beta rays were emitted from the samples. This is supported by elementary theory of radioactive radiation. Gamma radiation can occur when beta particles collide and annihilate each other. The mass collapses and simultaneously emits weak gamma radiation. But this is beside the point. So let's stick to the fact that beta radiation was measured in 1959.
-
The radiation source could have originated from sloppy handling relatively harmless radioactive material used in civil industry, and perhaps for research purposes at UPI. And maybe from radioactive contamination after a nuclear accident.
-
It is not fruitful to only look for findings that confirm a particular theory. One must also consider those that open up other explanatory models.
If we look at this from a statistical perspective, strontium has a has a wider range of applications in civil industry production than the other substances I have listed, and it can also be associated with fallout from nuclear accidents…
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 08:29:24 AM by gunmat »
 

March 17, 2024, 03:02:52 PM
Reply #14
Online

Axelrod


If we talk about pollution after the Kyshtym accident, then an article in Russian Wikipedia (Kyshtym accident) gives the following data

cerium-144 (285 days) β-, γ-, α- praseodymium-144 (17.5 min / β-) → neodymium-144 (2.3⋅1015 years / α-) → cerium-140 (stable) 66%
zirconium-95 (64 days) β-, γ- niobium-95 (35 days / β-) → molybdenum-95 (stable) 25%
strontium-90 (28.8 years) β-yttrium-90 (64.1 h / β-, γ-) → zirconium-90 (stable) 5%
cesium-137 (30.17 years) β-, γ- barium-137 (stable) 3%
niobium-95 (35 days) β-molybdenum-95 (stable)
ruthenium-106 (374 days) β-rhodium-106 (29.8 s/β-, γ-) → palladium-106 (stable)

The starting element for these substances is apparently uranium-235.
I have no idea where and how radioactive iodine is obtained from uranium.

It turns out that 2/3 of the emission was cerium, but by May 18, 1959 its share could have decreased from 66% to 6%

If we consider strontium-90:
If we talk about the impact, I specifically studied that the radiation energy from yttrium-90 is approximately 4 times greater than the radiation energy from strontium-90, therefore, in this case it turns out that the impact from strontium is only 20%, and the impact from yttrium is 80%
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 03:42:53 PM by Axelrod »
 

March 18, 2024, 04:05:40 AM
Reply #15
Online

gunmat


As I said, my list could be made longer. It was just an example to widen up possibilities.
 

March 19, 2024, 04:06:55 AM
Reply #16
Online

Axelrod


There are about 100 chemical elements and several thousand of their isotopes in the parish.
This is similar to the situation where Google Translate has 100+ languages and several thousand other languages, many of which are similar to the main languages.
For example, for cerium (atomic mass 140) there are isotopes in the range 119-157,
caused by different numbers of neutrons in an atom.

I am a graduate of the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, but nuclear physics is not my specialty, so I have to figure it out like before the exam. Especially, I cannot translate it to English correctly.

As for the annihilation of beta particles, I don’t remember, it is the annihilation of a proton and an electron, or the annihilation of an electron with a positron.

The Russian article Yttrium-90 has such information.

Yttrium-90 undergoes β− decay into stable zirconium-90 with a half-life of 64.1 hours [5], a decay energy of 2.28 MeV [1] The radiation of 0.01% 1.7 MeV [6] photons also occurs.

The figure 0.01% means that for every 10 thousand decays of strontium-90 into yttrium-90, and in parallel, 10 thousand decays of yttrium-90 into zirconium-90 occur.
Those. For every 20 thousand decays, only 1 decay occurs with gamma radiation.
But when considering thousands of isotopes, I think there are other options.

Those. Strontium-90 is ideal, but it is also a result of the decay of rubidium-90.
Rubidium-90 is formed in the decay chain of uranium-235, but there the elements decay quite quickly, and the half-life of strontium takes 30 years.

A stable version of strontium-88 is used in industry as a metal. If a human person consumes radioactive strontium-90, the body can confuse it with calcium, and therefore strontium (dangerous and toxic) can accumulate in the bones.
 

March 19, 2024, 07:22:55 AM
Reply #17
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gunmat


Positrons and electrons annihilate each other when they come near each other, the mass collapses, and a weak gamma radiation (photons) is emitted, which only has a theoretical mass. But this is elementary theory.
 

March 19, 2024, 04:17:31 PM
Reply #18
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GlennM


It seems to me that if the hikers knowingly suspected airborne radiation exposure it would be clothes off, snow bath time. Gentlemen to the left, ladies to the right. Then...about those clothes?
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

March 20, 2024, 10:31:01 AM
Reply #19
Online

Axelrod


In order for electrons to annihilate with their antiparticles, these particles must come from somewhere.
There are beta plus and beta minus decays. If beta minus decay occurs for some element, then beta plus can only arise from the environment. Or we have a mixture of elements... So, I don't understand this.

Now it is no longer possible to ask what Igor Pavlov meant.

When I studied at MIPT, the teachers did not like nuclear physics, considering it a side specialty like chemistry.

In addition, something in this theory may be refined and changed over the years.
I remember the moment that in the 1995, weak and strong interactions were added to electromagnetic interactions, and now again they are classified as separate interactions. Also, now that the mu-mesons that were present in our tasks, after 30 years, no longer considered as mesons, and are called muons. This is approximately how Pluto ceased to be a platenta.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 10:41:19 AM by Axelrod »
 

March 20, 2024, 10:51:25 AM
Reply #20
Online

gunmat


...I am not sure to explain it..here I lack deeper insight..Sadly I saw tha Pavlov passed aways some years ago. Could be interesting to have him develop hsi assumptions more..
 

March 20, 2024, 02:54:35 PM
Reply #21
Online

Axelrod


What I have read:

Cobalt-60 maybe is not suitable because "The half-life of cobalt-60 is 5.2 years; as a result of the beta decay of this nuclide, nickel-60 is formed in an excited state, which then passes to the ground state, emitting one or more gamma rays."

The same for Cesium isotopes.

(Alpha-particles and Gamma-rays are not detected by Levashov.)

Carbon-14  may be present as a little part of radioation test results, like Kalium-40, due to their natural presence in human body.

The question is about radioactive substances that exceed natural values. It may be Strontium-90 and another elements (from thousand of possible isotopes). If Strontium-90 is obliged to Kyshtym radioactive spur then the question arises, why another spur elemeтts (Ce-144, Cs-134, Cs-137) with alpha/gamma and gamma-radiation are not detected.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 03:10:34 PM by Axelrod »
 

March 20, 2024, 03:33:42 PM
Reply #22
Online

gunmat


Pavlov explained why gamma and alpha did not appear. The meter/method used by Levashov could not detect those partickles below a certain threshold..Sounds right to me. Again, its above my knowledge to say for sure..
 

March 20, 2024, 05:23:11 PM
Reply #23
Online

Axelrod


Pavlov explained why gamma and alpha did not appear. The meter/method used by Levashov could not detect those partickles below a certain threshold..Sounds right to me. Again, its above my knowledge to say for sure..
You know, I’m used to strange explanations, and 90% of what is written on Russian forums about DPI has nothing to do with serious research. This is a heap of incompetent ideas on tourism, medicine and so on.

What I remember from laboratory work at the institute is that alpha radiation is indeed registered slowly.
But for the device to register beta radiation and skip gamma radiation is somehow strange.
 

March 20, 2024, 07:50:29 PM
Reply #24
Online

gunmat


You might be right. My point is that contamination can have come, both from the mayak and from sloppy handling of materials in the civil industry. Also at UPI.
 

March 21, 2024, 07:35:39 AM
Reply #25
Online

gunmat


"I believe that the measured radioactivity from the clothing samples has a completely natural explanation. The topic should be taken off the table and archived under the label 'for the particularly interested.'
--
Have you reacted to the short distance the group covered on the morning of February 1st? There is only a 2-kilometer distance between the last confirmed place they stayed overnight and where the tent was found. In the diary on the 31st, Dyatlov complains about poor progress. They are only walking at a rate of 1.5 to 2 km per hour uphill. At this point, they leave some equipment behind. According to the story, on February 1st, they hike up to where the tent was found and pitched it. Using Dyatlov's estimate of progress in difficult terrain, this hike would take 1 hour. It seems highly unlikely that they only walked for an hour on February 1st, 1959, before pitching the tent. There is something seriously wrong with this part of the story." ( Is this part of the story put together,just to have a story, without further asessments?)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 08:42:20 AM by gunmat »
 

March 21, 2024, 09:53:40 AM
Reply #26
Online

Axelrod


I try to explain

In order to investigate in this direction, you must either be a specialist in this field or study reference books.
If we consider the source of radiation as the Kyshty accident, then the unloading of waste from a nuclear reactor consists

Let’s say that the emergency tank was loaded at the beginning of 1957, and the accident occurred in September 9 months later.
Share of waste
- 66% (33% at the time of the accident, ~8% after 3 years) - cerium-144
- 5% (~5% after 3 years) - strontium-90
- 3% - cesium-137

Since the half-life for cerium-144 is equal to the gestation period of 9 months, then after 36 months it is
after 27 months (May 1959) 1/8 × 66% = 8% remained in the form of the elements cerium-144 and praseodymium-144,
and 7/8 in the form of the substance neodymium 144, which has only alpha radioactivity, which occurs over 2300 trillion years and is barely perceptible



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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium-137

Caesium-137 has a half-life of about 30.05 years.[1] About 94.6% decays by beta emission to a metastable nuclear isomer of barium: barium-137m (137mBa, Ba-137m). The remainder directly populates the ground state of 137Ba, which is stable. Barium-137m has a half-life of about 153 seconds, and is responsible for all of the gamma ray emissions in samples of 137Cs. Barium-137m decays to the ground state by emission of photons having energy 0.6617 MeV.A total of 85.1% of 137Cs decay generates gamma ray emission in this manner.
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My gamma healing sensor, the battery of which I have not changed for 10 years, worked six months ago, now it turns on, but shows zeros.
Apparently the battery needs to be changed. But it is unlikely that such a problem existed in 1959.

Of the three popular accident products, only strontium90 fits the examination data.
it decays into yttrium-90 with an energy of 566 kiloelectronvolts (5.6 billion °C or kelvin),
and then within 64 hours the half-life of this yttrium into stable zirconium with energy
2.28 megaelectronvolts (thermal equivalent 22.8 billion °C)

(I find it difficult to convert these billions of degrees Celsius/Uelwyn into Fahrenheit, as the Americans like)

At most, Kolevatov’s heart counted 9 thousand decays.
If the cause of this is strontium-90, then it has only one gamma decay per 20 thousand decays.
Which may not be registered due to the sensitivity of the device.

Igor Pavloc (although it seems to me that the Partorg recently wrote it) may not have been aware of specific values.

But this variant with Strontium etc. cannot be the case with cesium-137 (or cesium-134),
for the device to register 0.5 MEV of radiation and at the same time not notice 1 MEV of gamma radiation is doubtful (a problem with the device, like mine).
Usually the opposite happens - devices do not notice beta radiation
  those. the version of spontaneous natural pollution is eliminated.

Tritium is very weak beta-element. Another elements may be considered further.
 

March 21, 2024, 10:03:38 AM
Reply #27
Online

gunmat


If you say so. I am not an expert in theese matters, but rely on what you write..But have you : "Have you reacted to the short distance the group covered on the morning of February 1st? There is only a 2-kilometer distance between the last confirmed place they stayed overnight and where the tent was found. In the diary on the 31st, Dyatlov complains about poor progress. They are only walking at a rate of 1.5 to 2 km per hour uphill. At this point, they leave some equipment behind. According to the story, on February 1st, they hike up to where the tent was found and pitched it. Using Dyatlov's estimate of progress in difficult terrain, this hike would take 1 hour. It seems highly unlikely that they only walked for an hour on February 1st, 1959, before pitching the tent. There is something seriously wrong with this part of the story." ( Is this part of the story put together,just to have a story, without further asessments?)
 

March 21, 2024, 11:29:53 AM
Reply #28
Online

Axelrod


It seems to me that the question about 1 hour is offtopic, but since you ask, I’ll write my opinion.

1) In the summer I had a 30 km hike in the mountains around my citytown. If I had not caught the bus at 19-15, I would have had to walk another 12 km or wait for a taxi.

out of 8 hours of walking in the mountains, only 1 hour (after 12 noon) was uphill. What do I want to say?
The difficulty of the climb depends on the temperature ang luggage. At +35*C I stopped 4 times. at +25 I stopped once to rest.
It’s very strange to imagine that some bandits preyed on the group for 4 days, although they could have caught up with them on the first day, On the fourth night they didn’t disturb them, and then they specifically waited for the group to ascend to 300 meters in altitude.

Vietnamka (she leaved this foeum) told to Oleg Taimen in an interview that Dyatlov’s group walked 2 km on February 1, and the next day they had a difficult transition to Otorten. I laughed at this notion. Since Vietnamka - works in a hospital, I imagined the situation: she walked up to the 7th floor by stairs, and then she had a difficult passage along the corridor.


2) We do not know the exact time when the group started climbing and when they stopped. Maybe it was 9 a.m. - 12 a.m. - 15 a.m.
Perhaps this is not the way it is suggested to us. Perhaps the storage shed was made not at the place where they spent the night, but in the middle of the ascent. The fact that the storage shed (in the snow) was made in the place where it was found is unambiguous.

Other details we can only guess in all options.
The tent definitely was set up in the place where it was found (other opinions arise as a “crisis of the genre”)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 11:47:24 AM by Axelrod »
 

March 21, 2024, 11:58:00 AM
Reply #29
Online

gunmat


My reaction when I saw the distance, don't need a fixed time for arrival. It is not climbing, but a gentle slope uphill. Walking this distance of 2 km is easily done in an hour and a half under these weather conditions, with 15 kg on your back. I have walked such distance under similiar conditions in my younger days, using less then 1 hour. So something must have happened, but what?
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It can be difficult to imagine, but the slope they walked is not climbing but just gently uphill. And if they walked the route proposed, most of the route would be plane, not up and not down. The altitude is about 850 meter where the tent was spotted. I see what you say about possible intruders, and I agree about what you say there. But speculations about possible intruders should be sorted out under a different topic..The remaining question in this matter should be : Why did they walk only one hour that day? An answer could be that they walked much longer but turned around, walked back and picthed the tent. Still I dont swollow it. Something happen between 31 and 1..

« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 12:19:17 PM by gunmat »