Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: amashilu on March 26, 2023, 08:12:19 AM
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If this has been discussed before, I haven't seen it, although I'm sure it must have been. If you know where such a discussion took place, I'd appreciate a link.
Also, are you aware of any other photos of the tent as it was when it was discovered, besides this one?
Okay, question: Why is the snow on top of the tent so "choppy and bunchy," for lack of a better word? It does not look like snow that has fallen, blown by the wind, or otherwise come down or settled naturally. The snow everywhere else is smooth and drifted. See pictures.
Statement from Maslennikov about the tent before the search team started digging: "The snow was not much, only drifted by the blizzards in the period of February."
"The north part was covered with 15-20 cm of snow. It was concluded from general appearance and density that it was not a result of an avalanche but blown by the wind." (dyatlovpass.com/1959-search?flip=1#the-tent)
Snow that is blown by the wind does not look like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/hd8657x/Screenshot-2023-03-26-at-8-03-07-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/R6HFnvG)
This of course can't be snow that was shoveled by rescuers or searchers because they would not put snow on top of the tent.
Here is a photo of snow that fell or blew naturally the same day: (I know it is under the cedar, where there are more obstacles to depth, but then I am only talking about the nature of natural snow vs. hard bunchy choppy snow.
(https://i.ibb.co/605wPnY/Screenshot-2023-03-26-at-8-01-20-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/LdfRtkS)
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If I was looking at the photo and not knowing the background, I would say it looks like somebody had dug up and thrown a load of snow on top of the tent.
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That's what it looks like to me also. That's pretty much what my own snow pile looks like after I've shoveled the driveway!
Possibly some of the people who discovered the tent took ice axes and shovels and beat the snow on top of the tent, in order to break it up into chunks and make it easier to remove? Again though, that seems reckless and uncaring of what might still be within.
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Great observation. I hadn't previously noticed that part. The snow on the tent appears to have been deliberately placed, rather than being the result of natural forces like wind or snowfall. One possibility is that the tent was relocated to its current position at the last minute, and snow was added to the top to make it look like it had been there all along. However, it's worth noting that this theory raises questions, as moving the tent would have required a significant amount of effort given that all of the group's belongings were inside.
Another possibility is that someone used the tent multiple times and removed the snow while using it to prevent it from getting too cold. Later, when it was time to leave and stage the scene for the search team, the person added snow to the tent to make it appear as though it had been covered by natural forces.
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One of many reasons I believe the tent was planted there to be found as part of the cover up is exactly that. the snow looks like it was shoveled onto the tent. nothing natural about that
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The tent was found on the 26th/27th of February. Those that found it say they dug the firm snow off the tent, they found , depending on which statement , things in various states.
The photo of the lumpy snow is at least a day, if not 2 days after the discovery of the tent on the 28th. After the inside of the tent of the tent had been looked at. (Here we can speculate who cut what and how they broke up the firm snow) .
We must also remember that it's 3 weeks after the night that the dp9 died. Within these three weeks, snow would have fallen or been blowed.
To summarize, the snow on top of that tent has already been broken up, the day before. There is also the possibility that those that first dug up the tent on the 26/27th , threw some snow back on the tent in case of wind.
What we see in the photo is after the discovery , not the moment of discovery.
@tenne , there are lots of real life experiments, use russian language in your searchs.
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The tent was found on the 26th/27th of February. Those that found it say they dug the firm snow off the tent, they found , depending on which statement , things in various states.
The photo of the lumpy snow is at least a day, if not 2 days after the discovery of the tent on the 28th. After the inside of the tent of the tent had been looked at. (Here we can speculate who cut what and how they broke up the firm snow) .
We must also remember that it's 3 weeks after the night that the dp9 died. Within these three weeks, snow would have fallen or been blowed.
To summarize, the snow on top of that tent has already been broken up, the day before. There is also the possibility that those that first dug up the tent on the 26/27th , threw some snow back on the tent in case of wind.
What we see in the photo is after the discovery , not the moment of discovery.
@tenne , there are lots of real life experiments, use russian language in your searchs.
I meant on this forum, where people who have never done anything even close to what the 9 were doing pretend to know what they are talking about
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The tent was found on the 26th/27th of February. Those that found it say they dug the firm snow off the tent, they found , depending on which statement , things in various states.
The photo of the lumpy snow is at least a day, if not 2 days after the discovery of the tent on the 28th. After the inside of the tent of the tent had been looked at. (Here we can speculate who cut what and how they broke up the firm snow) .
We must also remember that it's 3 weeks after the night that the dp9 died. Within these three weeks, snow would have fallen or been blowed.
To summarize, the snow on top of that tent has already been broken up, the day before. There is also the possibility that those that first dug up the tent on the 26/27th , threw some snow back on the tent in case of wind.
What we see in the photo is after the discovery , not the moment of discovery.
@tenne , there are lots of real life experiments, use russian language in your searchs.
I meant on this forum, where people who have never done anything even close to what the 9 were doing pretend to know what they are talking about
Who on this forum is pretending to know what they are talking about?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp0EdauLSgA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp0EdauLSgA)
Эксперимент Алексеенкова. Палатка при ветре за 1 сутки с 9 на 10 февраля. Можно представить, что будет с ветхой палаткой за месяц трепания на ветру..
Alyeksyeyenkov experiment from February 9 to 10. Tent in the wind for 1 day. Can you imagine what will happen to the tent in a month.
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Good video, Anna. That snow does look like you would expect wind-blown snow to look.
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The tent was found on the 26th.
This photo is the 28th of February.
(https://i.ibb.co/rZxqJSk/Dyatlov-pass-tent-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xM1wQ0h)
This photo shows snow dug up from around Rustem.
(https://i.ibb.co/r3HdH8F/Rustem-Slobodin-post-mortem-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NrKTKDt)
They had dug snow from the tent the days before the photo of the 28th and entered it. So the photo does not represent the tent as it was found , it shows the tent after 2 days of searchers ......searching .
I would speculate that the snow had been taken off or broken off(we can see the same effect of snow on rustems photo) . Then loosely thrown back on top on the night of the 27th to weigh down the tent for the night in case of wind. The photo of the 28th looks to be before midday, if I understand the orientation and shadows correctly, at least 4 of the hikers have been found by the time of this photo. A lot of work had been done. It would never look like fresh blown snow.
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That's what it looks like to me also. That's pretty much what my own snow pile looks like after I've shoveled the driveway!
Possibly some of the people who discovered the tent took ice axes and shovels and beat the snow on top of the tent, in order to break it up into chunks and make it easier to remove? Again though, that seems reckless and uncaring of what might still be within.
It is reported that they took an ice axe and skis to enter the tent, from the top. They had to check for bodies in the tent on the 26th . The snow was reported as firn.
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They had to check for bodies in the tent on the 26th . The snow was reported as firn.
Чтоб проверить наличие тел в палатке не обязательно было рубить палатку ледорубом.. Вход был открыт. У меня есть подозрение, что разрубить палатку - это было задание свыше. Иначе объяснить нельзя. И сам Шаравин не дает по этому поводу никаких объяснений.
To check the presence of bodies in the tent, it was not necessary to chop the tent with an ice pick.. The entrance was open. I have a suspicion that cutting the tent was a task from above. There is no other way to explain it. And Sharavin himself does not give any explanations about this.
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They had to check for bodies in the tent on the 26th . The snow was reported as firn.
Чтоб проверить наличие тел в палатке не обязательно было рубить палатку ледорубом.. Вход был открыт. У меня есть подозрение, что разрубить палатку - это было задание свыше. Иначе объяснить нельзя. И сам Шаравин не дает по этому поводу никаких объяснений.
To check the presence of bodies in the tent, it was not necessary to chop the tent with an ice pick.. The entrance was open. I have a suspicion that cutting the tent was a task from above. There is no other way to explain it. And Sharavin himself does not give any explanations about this.
Sharavin says a number of things that may contradict , however , regarding the snow on the tent, both Sharavin and Slobtsov , who discover the tent on the 26th of February say that there was hard snow on the tent. That they entered the tent and not from the entrance.
The entrance was blocked ,as we can see in the photos and as reported, 3/4 collapsed by the snow which was hard. It is not practical to enter a collapsed tent to Search for potential bodies , if not for the basic compromise of being on one's hands and knees to come face to face , or place ones hand on a dead person. Below is some of Sharavin and Slobtsov recollections.
In the following interview (MSh) is Sharavin.
https://dyatlovpass.com/sharavin-1
Quotes below.
– 11 –
YK: In addition, our UPI specialists assumed that there could be neutron radiation, i.e. neutron weapon testing is basically the same factors. Then we must assume that they were all already taken out of the tent. Cut and taken out. Here Korotaev even says that it is cut from the inside.
MSh: The fact that [the tent] was cut from inside we could see even before the [official] examination, while taking the tent apart.
YK: You take a knife stick and pull towards you...
MSh: Outside, it would have been thrust once and dragged, and there were several attempts, several cuts from the inside, such weak punctures in the tent fabric were observed and then only a cut. We found this when examining the section still in place, and then the examination confirmed this. This this is not a gap, so it goes obliquely of the fibers, and the gap is either vertically or horizontally, where it is weaker there. We cut down part of the tent with an ice ax, i.e. we cut from the top through the bottom. We did damage, you could say it was necessary .. we had to find out if there was somebody inside, but I think that it could be done differently, it wasn't necessary to cut the tent. We could remove the snow. By the way this was done before the footprints were found. After we cut down the tent, they began to inspect and saw the tracks of footprints.
AK: And you got into the tent through your hole or?
MSh: Yes, through your own, not through the entrance. We didn't even try to go through the entrance.
YK: There [the entrance], all the more, was covered with a sheet.
MSh: Maybe we would have behaved differently if the ice axe was not perched there at the entrance, the tent was encapsulated with firn snow, we saw the ax, we needed to get inside the tent, of course, we grabbed an ice axe and started chopping. We did not have an ax or even a knife. Because we carried nothing but dry rations.
YK: So on the surface [of the tent] that is drawn there in the case, part of it are your holes?
MSh: Yes of course. There are two slots obliquely and down, these holes were made with a knife, but on the ridge of the tent, in the center, for example, there is another big hole - we cut it. There, there’s still some sort of lost flap, this is what inflicted...
AK: There was no snow inside the tent?
MSh: Yes, there was no snow.
AK: Despite the holes and the wind?
MSh: The cut was on the leeward side, and so it fell, as it were, on the holes...
From SLOBTSOV WITNESS TESTIMONY sheet 298
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-298-300
The tent of Dyatlov group was discovered by our group on the afternoon of February 26, 1959.
When we approached the tent, they found out: the entrance of the tent came from under the snow, and the rest of the tent was under snow. Around the tent in the snow stood ski poles and spare skis - 1 pair. The snow on the tent was 15-20 cm thick, it was clear that the snow was fluffy on top of the tent, it was hard. ( the snow was accumulated by the wind on top of the tent, and then hardened by the cold into a crust - ed. note).
Near the entrance of the tent on the snow
an ice ax was stuck, on the canvas of the tent, in the snow lay a pocket flashlight, Chinese make, which, as it was subsequently established, belonged to Dyatlov. It was strange that while there was a layer of snow let say 5-10 cm thick under the flashlight, there was no snow on top of it, and it was snowed slightly on either side. I took the flashlight first and found that it was not turned on. When I turned on it lit. I did not notice that day, but then I heard from other people involved in the search that there was a trace of urine in the snow near the tent.
In the immediate vicinity of the tent there were no footprints. Approximately 15-20 m from the tent in the direction where the bodies were subsequently discovered, footprints of the people's feet coming from the tent were visible on the snow, and it was evident that the tracks were left by the feet of a person without shoes in felt boots (valenki). The tracks protruded above the surrounding surface of the snow, for near the tracks the snow was blown out by the wind.
From the tent in the direction of the wind, i.e. in the direction where there were traces of people's feet, at a distance of about 0.5-1 m, we found several slippers from different pairs, and ski caps and other small objects were scattered. I do not remember and did not pay attention to how many people were the footprints from, but it should be noted that the tracks were initially together, next to each other, and the distant tracks diverged, but now I don't remember how they parted.
On February 26, 1959, we removed the snow from over the tent and made sure that there were no people inside, and we didn't touch the items that were in the tent. I was with student Sharavin. The items were taken out of the tent on February 27 and 28, 1959, when student Brusnitsyn and other searchers were present.
back
When on 26.2.59 I looked in the tent I saw the following: the tent itself was torn, there was food in a bucket near the entrance, there was a liquid in a flask - alcohol or vodka, there were food supplies in bags at the feet, the blankets were unfolded, under the blankets spread out were quilted jackets, storm jackets, and under them backpacks were laid on the floor. At the entrance hung Slobodin's jacket, in whose breast pocket were found about 800 rubles. In the tent, apparently, a sheet was hung, which was torn and part of it protruded outward.
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Ziljoe writes:
The tent was found on the 26th.
This photo is the 28th of February.
Captain Chernyshev was interviewed by Lev Ivanov on March 11, 1959. He says:
In my group were: Captain Vlasov, Petty Officer Sidorov, Staff Sergeant Verhovskiy and a civilian Yablonsky. For all these comrades this wasn't their first time in the forest, they are all hunters and trackers. We took food supplies for 7 days.
The group task was to find traces of Dyatlov group. ... In the upper Vishera we were supposed to meet with Slobtsov group.
We flew out on 26.II-59 and landed in a designated area of the route. On the second day ( 27.II-59) a canister was dropped from a plane with change of plan. The information inside was that Dyatlov tent and two bodies were found in the area of the height "1079". We were given instructions to move towards heights "1079" and "880", we were 25 km from there. We didn't see any tracks the the area where we were dropped.
Approximately 4 pm on 27.II the helicopter found us, we boarded and landed in the area where Dyatlov tent was. There was a group of tents already Slobtsov, Karelin, as well as Maslennikov.
On this day Moiseev with dogs went out on a search and found the bodies of Kolmogorova and Dyatlov.
On the second day (28.II.59) were dispatched search groups, and I went with prosecutor Tempalov and up to 10 people to start the excavation of the tent.
The tent was found on the slope of the height "1079", 100-150 m north-east from the top. At first glance, the tent seemed snowbound, but when we looked at it closer, we saw that the tent entrance was supported by the central peg and was well fortified with ropes. The other edge were also kept at their poles, but because the middle of the tent was piled up with snow, and the slopes of the tents on the windward side were severely damaged, the edge had fallen and was under the snow.
It was impossible to get into the tent, as all of it was covered with snow, and the layout of the items inside was revealed only after digging it up. The tent was set properly. The snow was trampled, on the snow were lying the skis with their sliding surface up, on top of them was the floor of the tent. At the very bottom of the tent were laid jackets (on the side of the slope), empty backpacks were spread on the bottom. At the same side of the tent (the slope) each lay their
Captain Chernyshev, March 11, 1959, interviewed by Ivanov
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Ziljoe writes:
The tent was found on the 26th.
This photo is the 28th of February.
Captain Chernyshev was interviewed by Lev Ivanov on March 11, 1959. He says:
In my group were: Captain Vlasov, Petty Officer Sidorov, Staff Sergeant Verhovskiy and a civilian Yablonsky. For all these comrades this wasn't their first time in the forest, they are all hunters and trackers. We took food supplies for 7 days.
The group task was to find traces of Dyatlov group. ... In the upper Vishera we were supposed to meet with Slobtsov group.
We flew out on 26.II-59 and landed in a designated area of the route. On the second day ( 27.II-59) a canister was dropped from a plane with change of plan. The information inside was that Dyatlov tent and two bodies were found in the area of the height "1079". We were given instructions to move towards heights "1079" and "880", we were 25 km from there. We didn't see any tracks the the area where we were dropped.
Approximately 4 pm on 27.II the helicopter found us, we boarded and landed in the area where Dyatlov tent was. There was a group of tents already Slobtsov, Karelin, as well as Maslennikov.
On this day Moiseev with dogs went out on a search and found the bodies of Kolmogorova and Dyatlov.
On the second day (28.II.59) were dispatched search groups, and I went with prosecutor Tempalov and up to 10 people to start the excavation of the tent.
The tent was found on the slope of the height "1079", 100-150 m north-east from the top. At first glance, the tent seemed snowbound, but when we looked at it closer, we saw that the tent entrance was supported by the central peg and was well fortified with ropes. The other edge were also kept at their poles, but because the middle of the tent was piled up with snow, and the slopes of the tents on the windward side were severely damaged, the edge had fallen and was under the snow.
It was impossible to get into the tent, as all of it was covered with snow, and the layout of the items inside was revealed only after digging it up. The tent was set properly. The snow was trampled, on the snow were lying the skis with their sliding surface up, on top of them was the floor of the tent. At the very bottom of the tent were laid jackets (on the side of the slope), empty backpacks were spread on the bottom. At the same side of the tent (the slope) each lay their
Captain Chernyshev, March 11, 1959, interviewed by Ivanov
Yes, found on the 26th. Photo 28th. Is there a problem amashila?
(https://i.ibb.co/17JbxmL/Screenshot-20230330-210649.png) (https://ibb.co/ydBVJQX)
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Amashilu, are you disagreeing?
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Not me. Chernyshev.
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What's Chernyshev disagreeing with?
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I shall try and figure out what you are saying amashilu.
You have posted captain Cherryshev's interview. Yes? Captain Chernyshev's fits with everything that's gone before and the statements of Slobtsov and Sharavin?
I shall concentrate on the bold of the statements you supplied.
"We flew out on 26.II-59 and landed in a designated area of the route. On the second day ( 27.II-59) a canister was dropped from a plane with change of plan. The information inside was that Dyatlov tent and two bodies were found in the area of the height "1079". We were given instructions to move towards heights "1079" and "880", we were 25 km from there. We didn't see any tracks the the area where we were dropped."
He says everything as the others do. He was dropped off on part of the route, 25 km away from 1078 and 880 on the 26th. A message was dropped on the 27th, 2 bodies were found and the tent. That will be the 2 Yuri's.
Every thing adds up.
Approximately 4 pm on 27.II the helicopter found us, we boarded and landed in the area where Dyatlov tent was. There was a group of tents already Slobtsov, Karelin, as well as Maslennikov.
On this day Moiseev with dogs went out on a search and found the bodies of Kolmogorova and Dyatlov.
So on the 27th , the helicopter finds them at 4 pm and takes them to the searchers campsite , the searchers campsite is in the "area" of the tent but not the actual hikers tent. On the 27 th it is recorded that zina and Dyatlov are found. So from the canister dropped where he is informed that 2 bodies are found ( the 2 Yuri's) , he also finds out that zina and Igor have been found by end of the day. 27th.
On the 28th he goes to the tent with other search parties , from the base camp, close to 1079.
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Ziljoe says: "They had dug snow from the tent the days before the photo of the 28th and entered it. So the photo does not represent the tent as it was found , it shows the tent after 2 days of searchers ."
"... At 6 pm on February 26, ... a Dyatlov group tent was found and was not inspected due to the beginning of a violent blizzard. I gave the order not to touch the discovered tent.
"On February 27, we raised the landing groups from Mount Oyko-Chakur and Gumppokay and transferred to the valley of Auspiya river in the area of height 1079 to participate in the search of the hikers. From February 27 till February 29 we built a camp site in the upper sources of Auspiya river to search for deceased hikers."
—Ortyukov, G.S.
"On February 27, 1959 I was informed that one body was found on height 1079 also the tent of the hikers. I immediately flew by helicopter to height 1079. ...
On 28.02.59, in the presence of witnesses, I inspected the tent of the hikers, which was located 150 meters from the ridge of height 1079 ..."
—Tempalov, V.I.
So ... here are the facts: They had NOT "dug snow from the tent the days before the photo of the 28th and entered it," as Ziljoe says. The tent was found on the 26th and Ortyukov immediately gave orders not to touch it, as there was the "beginning of a violent blizzard". The next day, the 27th, focus changed suddenly and dramatically with the discovery of the first bodies. On the 28th, they turned back to the tent and, "in the presence of witnesses," it was explored. The photo was taken at the beginning of this initial exploration, as they were still digging the tent out. It still has much of the choppy snow on top and the huge pile-up of snow blocking the right-side.
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Ortyukov may have given the order but it would seem he gives it after Slobtsov and Sharavin have found the tent. The previous post where Sharavin and Slobtsov talk of what they did and took on the 26th explains this.
Sharavin goes on and explains more. They don't have texts or mobile phones remember. I don't believe they would not inspect the tent the minute they found it. I believe they had to travel back to the campsite to report what they had found and they took items.
The tent had been explored before Templelov, unofficially and with good intentions. .
Everyone is saying the truth from their perspective. So..... The snow on the tent had been moved prior to the photo that you talk about amashilu. There is no mystery.
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Well, I don't want to argue about this, so since it's obvious I'm right, I'll just stop now. lol2
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Well, I don't want to argue about this, so since it's obvious I'm right, I'll just stop now. lol2
I'm glad it's obvious you are right. There was no argument from my view point , just facts . Facts stop escalation to speculation.
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Ziljoe says: "They had dug snow from the tent the days before the photo of the 28th and entered it. So the photo does not represent the tent as it was found , it shows the tent after 2 days of searchers ."
So ... here are the facts: They had NOT "dug snow from the tent the days before the photo of the 28th and entered it," as Ziljoe says. The tent was found on the 26th and Ortyukov immediately gave orders not to touch it, as there was the "beginning of a violent blizzard". The next day, the 27th, focused changed dramatically with the discovery of the first bodies. On the 28th, they turned back to the tent and, "in the presence of witnesses," it was explored. The photo was taken at the beginning of this initial exploration, as they were still digging the tent out. It still has much of the choppy snow on top and the huge pile-up of snow blocking the right-side.
At what point do you not enter a snow covered tent when found , when you are part of a search team to find people alive or bodies?
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I have to agree, that it seems extremely suspicious that they didn’t enter the tent given they were there on a rescue mission.
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I have to agree, that it seems extremely suspicious that they didn’t enter the tent given they were there on a rescue mission.
From my interpretation, of the statements, they did enter the tent when it was first discovered. , On the 26th. Everything is written in the statements as the testimonies say in the case files and later interviews. Everyone is correct from thier own perspective. It is this fact that actually gives credibility to there being no cover up.
If there is a cover up , it's not from the students, helpers, searchers or those at the scene.
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This is a quote from Natalya Saharova, forensic expert (https://dyatlovpass.com/natalya-saharova-KP?rbid=18461), who examined the case in 2014.
I analyzed the available photographic materials. The tent for example. The snow lies in layers around, without marks. I assume that the area near the tent was deliberately covered with snow to hide the traces (shoes, wrestling, dragging, where the guys left the tent). With such an arrangement of snow on the tent, it is impossible to make linear cuts in the side panel - it must be stretched. That is, the cuts were made before the snow was piled up.
Apparently, the sequence was like this. First, the tent standing on the struts was cut, the actions near the tent were hidden under the snow thrown around, inside the tent was inspected using a flashlight (lying on a layer of snow), then the tent was covered with snow, which is why it sank, the flashlight was placed on top.
She is suggesting the scene was staged. I don't know why I haven't seen this report before. It is a fascinating read.
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Imagine a canopy outside a shop, it wasn't properly supported by all of its struts and heavy snow had collected on top and frozen, and then the winds picked up. Come the moment it collapsed onto the sidewalk you'd anticipate that the snow on the ground would be arranged in irregular blocks, not a pile of fluffy stuff, and that is what I am seeing over a collapsed tent, one which had no centre ridge support, and had only been held up by two end poles, one of which had snapped twice.
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This is a quote from Natalya Saharova, forensic expert (https://dyatlovpass.com/natalya-saharova-KP?rbid=18461), who examined the case in 2014.
I analyzed the available photographic materials. The tent for example. The snow lies in layers around, without marks. I assume that the area near the tent was deliberately covered with snow to hide the traces (shoes, wrestling, dragging, where the guys left the tent). With such an arrangement of snow on the tent, it is impossible to make linear cuts in the side panel - it must be stretched. That is, the cuts were made before the snow was piled up.
Apparently, the sequence was like this. First, the tent standing on the struts was cut, the actions near the tent were hidden under the snow thrown around, inside the tent was inspected using a flashlight (lying on a layer of snow), then the tent was covered with snow, which is why it sank, the flashlight was placed on top.
She is suggesting the scene was staged. I don't know why I haven't seen this report before. It is a fascinating read.
She has some valid points but for me , a lot of how the case unfolds , ties in with the myths.
The poor documentation and the photos do raise a question . The photos do not look like a formal crime seen investigation that we might imagine in our minds from what we see on TV.
If we try to understand the chronological events of the search and rescue , it can lead us to comprehending how things may have got into such a twisted knot.
The question I would like to ask is, was the case a criminal case from the start?.
I do not know how search and rescue cases are filed or documented in any country. Even in the UK with hikers that are found dead on the hills , I don't know if forensic style photos are taken and the location of every object is documented?.
The point being, was everything getting executed in the context of search and rescue for the Dyatlov group.....? ....... It would seem that it was.
There were at least 3 tourist groups in the area, possibly more all over the country as this is what students did, it was a popular activity all year round, there is nothing mysterious about their back packs, distance travelled, equipment, it's all a standard passtime and they were well experienced. One of the other groups got into trouble as they burned their tent, they continued their hike by making snow dens and on their return were recruited to join the search parties for the Dyatlov group.
As I understand it, several search groups were dropped off in various pre planned, logical search patterns. One being the final known destination, mt Oroten and they were to work backwards , another group to follow the route from the last known location and work forwards, plus other groups dropped off inbetween. Flights by planes and helicopters were utilised to see if anything can be seen , which I believe some trails could be observed, deer paths and possibly ski/sliegh trails .
Anyway, coming back to the tent and surrounding snow. The photo we see is the following day after its discovery. None of the witnesses report seeing footprints or signs of outsiders. Not one.
I don't fully understand what Natalya Saharova is implying. We can see that the searcher's were not sinking into snow leaving footprints. There had been considerable snow fall , or wind swept snow over the 3 weeks. The photo we have of the tent is after people had entered it. Natalya Saharova may be suggesting it was staged but she is working from the same resources as the rest of us.
I do not think it's impossible to make cuts in the tent if it's collapsed or otherwise.
Natalya Saharova believes it was murder and questions the nature of the investigation, lack of photos and interviews etc , which is a good and fair point.
However, this is why I ask the question ;was the case a criminal case from the start?
I think this question is important because it will determine how we view the sequence of events and why we are confused.
If we assume those in charge of the search and rescue were by all means , doing the logical standard procedures with no prior knowledge or suspicion of murder ,we can observe
1: they start to organise resources , search flights, start contacting locals/mansi and students at the gymnasium to search, sappers with mine detectors and sniffer dogs are requested and of course the military resources would be used in conjunction with all of the above.
2: they set up a base camp, clear trees so the helicopter can land with supplies .
3: the hikers tent is found, quickly searched by the untrained students that were given no instructions of protocol and some items are taken back to base camp that evening along with the information that there are no bodies. ( Possible extra cuts were made and excavation of snow on top of the tent during the initial finding of the tent) . On students return to base camp , Basecamp radios to lead investigator, lead investigator gives order to not touch anything . This request is too late as it is after the tent has been reported found. the tent site has been innocently searched.
4: following day, foot prints are found that lead down the slope, the priority is to find the hikers, hopefully alive. It is still a search effort at this point. The two Yuri's are found (and here we get one of the first myths that's over reported , that the hikers left the tent undressed and in their underwear. Although it's a truth at that moment in time, the two Yuri's were were found poorly dressed and in their under garments, the rest of their clothes were later to be found around the den area and perhaps used/shared by the other hikers) . Dyatlov and Zina are also quickly found but better dressed.
The tent is also 'officially' searched on that day and it is reported that some of the searcher's are affected by the news of the comrades death's. The radiograms add a bit to the confusion but I suspect that's down to word of mouth and delays in communication at the site, we have several separate localised search's occuring at the same time. This will be on the slope, at the ceder and the tent. There is initial mis Identity of one of the Yuri's , the transportation of the bodies to boot rock, probably speculation and gossip by all involved. There is a lot going on. We can read in later interviews by various witnesses that they were speculating all kind of ideas as to why the hikers left the tent.( This is when the first rumours would have started, none based on facts.)
5: Rustem is found two days later. Autopsies are carried out and inspection of the ripped tent , where it is then reported that some of the cuts in the tent suggest that it was cut from the inside. ( Side note: I question the lack of information regarding the state of the tent from when first discovered and packed up to the picture we have with all the cuts. It is in shreds by the time it is hung for the photo. You don't need to be a forensic expert to notice how badly damaged the tent is. Why this is not documented is another puzzle.)
6: 2 months go by until the ravine 4 are found with the most serious injuries.
The details and report about the tent being cut from the inside and the ravine 4 is important to the context to the initial search and how we perceive the investigation. These facts were found out after the initial search and rescue . Those in charge of the initial search did not have this information, they had no reason to think or believe that they should be documenting every single moment of the search as a potential murder scene. That in parallel with the fact that there were no injuries to the first 5 hikers bodies that would imply outsiders , or at least murder by human hands. We can argue that Rustem had a fractured skull but again, those doing the search would not know that information, they don't have any autopsy data to raise any suspicion. At that moment in time , all the effort is being put into missing tourists that they want to find.
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"The decision to initiate a criminal case was issued by V. Tempalov, the prosecutor of the city of Ivdel. This resolution was issued on February 26, 1959 and it states that the case was initiated in connection with the data on the discovery of the corpses of student hikers at the height 1079". So it is written in the introductory part of the resolution. (Povetkin)
The date of Feb. 26 has been called into question because the 26 looks to many folks like it was forged and it was originally February 6.
At any rate, I remember reading somewhere that because the searchers immediately suspected the Mansi of murdering the hikers, murder was their first assumption.
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"The decision to initiate a criminal case was issued by V. Tempalov, the prosecutor of the city of Ivdel. This resolution was issued on February 26, 1959 and it states that the case was initiated in connection with the data on the discovery of the corpses of student hikers at the height 1079". So it is written in the introductory part of the resolution. (Povetkin)
The date of Feb. 26 has been called into question because the 26 looks to many folks like it was forged and it was originally February 6.
At any rate, I remember reading somewhere that because the searchers immediately suspected the Mansi of murdering the hikers, murder was their first assumption.
I'm aware of that but I do wonder what the phrase "criminal case" means. We have had errors in translation and law. One being, death by violence in Russia doesn't mean murder.
Having tried our friend Google about the laws of search and rescue , I found this.
Russia
Edit
In Russia, Article 125 of the criminal code prohibits knowingly abandoning people who are in life- or health-threatening situations when said people cannot help themselves. However it binds only those who are either legally obligated to care for said people or who themselves have put said people into life or health threatening situation. The maximum penalty is 1 year in prison.[49]
Serbia
Edit
In Serbia, a citizen is required by law to provide help to anyone in need (after for example a major car accident) as long as providing help does not endanger him or her personally. Serbian criminal code Articles 126 and 127 state that should one abandon a helpless person and/or not provide aid to a person in need, one could receive a prison sentence of up to one year. If the person dies of injuries due to no aid having been provided by the bystander, a sentence up to 8 years in prison can be imposed.
I wonder if we are confusing the term criminal case in its simplest terms and assuming it's being addressed as a crime has taken place , where as it's actually being addressed as the potential of a criminal case if they don't at least try and help the missing hikers?
Maybe one of our Russian members could clarify?
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Povetkin says: "A criminal case is initiated only if there are signs of some kind of foul play, murder, negligence, treason, etc., provided for by a specific article of the Criminal Code."
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I want to go back a bit to where Ziljoe and I had a disagreement about the dates of the tent-finding. There is a lot of discrepancy regarding this, but I think here is a basic timeline, crudely accurate?
February 24 - Pashin and Cheglakov find the tent, but for whatever reason, do not attempt to go inside.
February 26 - Pashin and Cheglakov hint to other searchers which direction they should go in to find the tent. Slobtsov and Sharavin find the tent. It is covered with hard snow. There is an ice axe stuck outside the front entrance. They use the ice ax to cut into the snow on top of the tent and make some slashes in the fabric so they can peer inside (which Pashin and Cheglakov should have done) to see if there are any people in there. There are no people. Looking in through the cuts, they make a quick mental inventory, but do not go in. Ortyukov gives instructions to leave the tent alone until he can get there.
February 27 - Bodies are discovered and the focus moves away from the tent.
February 28 - Officials return to the tent and, with witnesses present, take photos and enter the tent. The only pictures that we have show the snow in a strange formation on top of one side of the tent, heavy and mounded, like snow that has been shoveled into place and then patted down with the back side of a shovel.
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I want to go back a bit to where Ziljoe and I had a disagreement about the dates of the tent-finding. There is a lot of discrepancy regarding this, but I think here is a basic timeline, crudely accurate?
February 24 - Pashin and Cheglakov find the tent, but for whatever reason, do not attempt to go inside.
February 26 - Pashin and Cheglakov hint to other searchers which direction they should go in to find the tent. Slobtsov and Sharavin find the tent. It is covered with hard snow. There is an ice axe stuck outside the front entrance. They use the ice ax to cut into the snow on top of the tent and make some slashes in the fabric so they can peer inside (which Pashin and Cheglakov should have done) to see if there are any people in there. There are no people. Looking in through the cuts, they make a quick mental inventory, but do not go in. Ortyukov gives instructions to leave the tent alone until he can get there.
February 27 - Bodies are discovered and the focus moves away from the tent.
February 28 - Officials return to the tent and, with witnesses present, take photos and enter the tent. The only pictures that we have show the snow in a strange formation on top of one side of the tent, heavy and mounded, like snow that has been shoveled into place and then patted down with the back side of a shovel.
There is no disagreement from my view point. There is only the reports and dates given by the the Dyatlov website.
I wholeheartedly agree there is a lot of discrepancy. I think I've mentioned it a few times along with others.
However , I appreciate your timeline . Pashin and Cheglakov are an oddity. It's speculation that you say they find the tent on the 24th, it has some merit but it is not fact..
Slobtsov and Sharavin did more than peer into the tent, they took stuff from the tent.there is no 'in' to the tent . It is collapsed at the discovery on the 26th. They either crawled inside the tent from holes they made or pealed it open with the cuts that were already made. One does not take stuff or alcohol with out checking the full tent for missing persons . They have to go in to the tent like crawling under a blanket or peel it open.
It's late in the afternoon that Slobtsov and Sharavin find the tent and there will be a delay to when Ortyukov received this information.
The tent has already been violated before he gives instruction not to touch it
I don't know where you get a a pile of snow patted down with the back side of a shovel....?.
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I don't know where you get a a pile of snow patted down with the back side of a shovel....?.
That is what it looks like to me, and I have read others see that also. That's all. Here is the section that looks like that, not like normal blown or fallen snow:
(https://i.ibb.co/F3XTrD9/snow.png) (https://ibb.co/tKzrGJS)
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This is not how the tent was found. Only the top part of it was peeking out from the snow.
This photo is how it looked like after it was dug out. Chunks of snow thrown all around the place by the searchers as they were removing it from on top of the tent.
So it's not normal blown or fallen snow. But that doesn't mean there was a government coverup and the snow was placed there to cover footprints.
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I think it would be obvious to those at the time if the snow was unusual . None of the witnesses speak of anything strange.
To me , the snow around the pole looks normal blown snow. If they dug snow to cover the tent or cover foot prints the there would be unusual holes from where they dug the snow to cover foot prints. Anyone doing this would also leave evidence. Not only that , there would be nothing suspicious about there being foot prints or marks being visible around the tent as the 9 hikers would be walking around the tent doing all sort of activities. There's no need to cover up foot prints where there was already 9 people.
The layers of snow show erosion. Over the whole winter season the snow levels and snow drifts will move. Even in 24 hours this will happen . So there was 3 weeks of snow, blown snow.
The torch for example could have been covered and exposed several times over three weeks.
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Snow on the tent:
there are a lot of clues, that those who investigated didn't realize ...that evidence is open to all to see, even Pashin has two days, that two days, Pashin and others left evidence..look very closely in the middle of the Tent area...trek marks...either snowmobile or ski????
(https://i.ibb.co/jHJNJWS/snowmobiletrackmarks-2023-06-11-4-01-45-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/t3LGLx9)
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Snow on the Tent...
another image ...
(https://i.ibb.co/PDFvHFs/snowmobiletracks2-2023-06-11-6-30-54-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/6Xr7Crc)
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Snow on the tent:
there are a lot of clues, that those who investigated didn't realize ...that evidence is open to all to see, even Pashin has two days, that two days, Pashin and others left evidence..look very closely in the middle of the Tent area...trek marks...either snowmobile or ski????
(https://i.ibb.co/jHJNJWS/snowmobiletrackmarks-2023-06-11-4-01-45-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/t3LGLx9)
I believe this photo was taken two days after the tent was first discovered. It is an important consideration when analysing the photo.
Firstly, we have to understand that whatever the snow on top of the tent was like , had been moved and the inside of the tent had been looked at. Secondly the first people at the tent said the used the axe to break the snow and possibly used a ski as a make shift shovel.
Unfortunately I don't think we can project anything on to this photo other than the tents rough location.
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Snow on the tent:
there are a lot of clues, that those who investigated didn't realize ...that evidence is open to all to see, even Pashin has two days, that two days, Pashin and others left evidence..look very closely in the middle of the Tent area...trek marks...either snowmobile or ski????
(https://i.ibb.co/jHJNJWS/snowmobiletrackmarks-2023-06-11-4-01-45-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/t3LGLx9)
I believe this photo was taken two days after the tent was first discovered. It is an important consideration when analysing the photo.
Firstly, we have to understand that whatever the snow on top of the tent was like , had been moved and the inside of the tent had been looked at. Secondly the first people at the tent said the used the axe to break the snow and possibly used a ski as a make shift shovel.
Unfortunately I don't think we can project anything on to this photo other than the tents rough location.
To add, the photo looks different or manipulated to the two I can find on this website. The upsidedown ski pole sits higher with relation to the white snow bank behind it.
Saying that I might have missed the photo in the archives.
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To check the presence of bodies in the tent, it was not necessary to chop the tent with an ice pick.. The entrance was open. I have a suspicion that cutting the tent was a task from above. There is no other way to explain it. And Sharavin himself does not give any explanations about this.
Donna Anna, stop, as one of your countrymen would say: chasing a cockroach around the piano. First of all, the entrance was obstructed by a snowdrift. You can see it Do in the photo. Secondly, Sharavin told that they did not want to climb into the tent through the entrance for fear of bumping into the completely dead deceased inside. Therefore they took an ingeniously simple decision - to tear off the roof of the tent and, if they were to meet the otherworldly, then in broad daylight and in a space suitable for a quick run. They tore off a little - three or four pieces which in the drawing by the expert Churkina look like two French windows in the wall of a Brazilian favela. What we see in the photo are the traces of their work. On some of the clumps you can even see the imprint of the seam reinforcing the joint between the two tents.
Thus, whoever and what has not yet written here, 100% of the truth will fall on what is written by Ziljoe
And the words of prosecutor Tempalov: "No one entered the tent before me" should be understood as an attempt to convince his conscience that he nevertheless instructed the search engines how to handle material evidence, and she (conscience, that is) simply forgot about it
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I don't know where you get a a pile of snow patted down with the back side of a shovel....?.
That is what it looks like to me, and I have read others see that also. That's all. Here is the section that looks like that, not like normal blown or fallen snow:
(https://i.ibb.co/F3XTrD9/snow.png) (https://ibb.co/tKzrGJS)
There is nothing special about this state of snow around the tent. Everything obeys well the laws of aerodynamics and snow deposition from the action of the wind.
This pile, which is marked with a red outline on your picture https://i.ibb.co/F3XTrD9/snow.png , arose from the transfer of snow from the north side, which is much rarer there than usual - from the west. But it is usually stronger and can bring a lot of snow in a short time. Theoretically, this is deposition behind a solid wall, roughly in this pattern:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CKLCipvMLRCYdP5Kje5MRtuxPYUao5Ui/view?usp=sharing
This is a typical case for such snow deposition.
If you look at the practical experiment created in 2014, everything completely coincides, both with what was in 1959 (as in your picture), and with what is drawn theoretically.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/101BvMysL4uQm1w3hZK8czMf4qitNYF9F/view
This is what it was just after the installation of a similar layout in February 2014,
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g6aWYv3sFHqS4Ze7ZG4_1-JEikeGR93j/view
And this is what we got after 3 weeks after that, in March 2014.
So, there is absolutely no surprise that there was such a pile, or how much or what quality of snow there is.