Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: trekker on March 23, 2021, 01:17:14 PM
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The tent had 5 long vertical cuts and many short horizontal cuts or tears. 5 vertical cuts were large enough to exit the tent. Cuts were quite evenly distributed to one side.
I’m figuring following possibilities:
-they were forced to make all those cuts. It rendered tent almost useless and in that environment drastically lowered chances of survival
-cuts were made orderly fashion. They didn’t try to sneak out from human threat. Sneaking out would have been obvious with one cut to back of the tent. They didn’t try to escape in panic and hurry. In that case there would have been cuts and tearing all over the tent, both sides and back of the tent.
-Their freedom of movement was propably blocked inside the tent, so they had to cut openings where they slept.
Possible cause of cutting and exiting might be collapsed snow or small slab avalanche above the tent.
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Those are very logical and reasonable conclusions based on the evidence at hand.
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I was surprized how close their storage (labaz) was from the tent. Almost as close as the cedar tree. Their best chances for survival was the storage, after the collapse. It makes perfect sense to descent quickly downhill to storage.
In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov’s warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and a mounting set.
Maybe Dyatlov decided to send two uninjured members (two Yuris) to storage to make fire beforehand for the rest of the group. Rest of the group left behind to dig out warm clothes and supplies from collapsed tent.
At the start two Yuris disoriented about 90 degrees to left and descended to cedar. They had same kind of disorienting to left earlier at the same day and got too high up Kholat Syakhl - magnetic anomaly or poor compass and bad visibility? It is very easy to get disoriented in the dark when you can travel rather quickly downhill.
At last two Yuris noticed they are disoriented and they can’t find storage. They made fire, climbed to cedar to signal rest of the group their whereabouts. Rest of the group descended to Two Yuris and they all perished there. Would they have survived, if they had descended correctly to the storage?
Edit: There were even firewood ready in the storage. Best chances for survival - food, firewood, medical supplies for injuries from collapse and at least two pairs of boots.
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There were two flashlights found at the scene. one at the tent, and the one further down the slope was still working when found. why would they not pick through the warm clothing at the tent using the flashlight rather than head down the slope, in the freezing cold, not properly dressed and why would they leave a working flashlight and keep going in the dark if that is why they left the tent?
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why would they not pick through the warm clothing at the tent using the flashlight rather than head down the slope, in the freezing cold, not properly dressed
If the tent really collapsed, it was very good assessment of the situation and leadership from Igor Dyatlov. If we assume that there was 50 cm of snow, that makes around 1000kg. Digging that amount of snow bare hands takes time. Descending to storage, say around 2 km downhill take 15-20 mins. So Dyatlov calculated they had maybe 1 hour before their performance start to drop drastically. He send two Yuris to find path to storage and make fire beforehand. Rest of the group have some 30 mins time to dig supplies and then they quicly descent to storage after two Yuris and there were fire ready. Please remember they had firewood ready at the storage.
why would they leave a working flashlight and keep going in the dark if that is why they left the tent?
To mark the path to storage for the rest of the group. It makes perfect sense, if they decided to follow 30 mins after digging the tent.
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so the two Yuri's left the collapsed tent using one flashlight and left it to illuminate the path and then did a meandering, if you look at the map that Teddy made, walk to the cedars, not a direct line BTW in the dark. Then the rest of them left their only flashlight at the tent to walk down to the cedar in the dark, using the the flashlight laying the path and then walked past it down to the cedar in the dark?
Is this what you are thinking?
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Then the rest of them left their only flashlight at the tent to walk down to the cedar in the dark, using the the flashlight laying the path and then walked past it down to the cedar in the dark?
Obviously they managed to get to the cedar. Didn’t they?
Why they missed the flashlight left marking the path? Maybe they had delay and battery was exhausted. Maybe they noticed two Yuris went wrong direction to almost certain death. What would you do in that situation? Leave two comrades missing and go to the storage or do you wait if they miraculously come back?
Two Yuris managed to make fire, they climbed 5 m to cedar, managed to signal their whereabouts and rest of the group descended to help comrades. Maybe that took considerable time and path marking light’s battery was exhausted already. But it is fact that they managed to get cedar.
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why would they not pick through the warm clothing at the tent using the flashlight rather than head down the slope, in the freezing cold, not properly dressed
If the tent really collapsed, it was very good assessment of the situation and leadership from Igor Dyatlov. If we assume that there was 50 cm of snow, that makes around 1000kg. Digging that amount of snow bare hands takes time. Descending to storage, say around 2 km downhill take 15-20 mins. So Dyatlov calculated they had maybe 1 hour before their performance start to drop drastically. He send two Yuris to find path to storage and make fire beforehand. Rest of the group have some 30 mins time to dig supplies and then they quicly descent to storage after two Yuris and there were fire ready. Please remember they had firewood ready at the storage.
why would they leave a working flashlight and keep going in the dark if that is why they left the tent?
To mark the path to storage for the rest of the group. It makes perfect sense, if they decided to follow 30 mins after digging the tent.
1. why would we assume 50 cm of snow on the tent when it was found "The north part was covered with 15-20 cm of snow. It was concluded from general appearance and density that it was not a result of an avalanche but blown by the wind"
2. As far as we can tell, they didn't dig anything out of the tent so why didn't they all leave together or do you think they took some stuff out of the tent and then left to go down to the storage. if so, why not their warm outer wear, boots etc
3. why would they leave a working flashlight sitting on top of the collapsed tent, on top of 10cm of snow, and walk down without it? It had to be turned on so it wasn't left on for them to have a beacon to use to come back to
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The tent had 5 long vertical cuts and many short horizontal cuts or tears. 5 vertical cuts were large enough to exit the tent. Cuts were quite evenly distributed to one side.
I’m figuring following possibilities:
-they were forced to make all those cuts. It rendered tent almost useless and in that environment drastically lowered chances of survival
-cuts were made orderly fashion. They didn’t try to sneak out from human threat. Sneaking out would have been obvious with one cut to back of the tent. They didn’t try to escape in panic and hurry. In that case there would have been cuts and tearing all over the tent, both sides and back of the tent.
-Their freedom of movement was propably blocked inside the tent, so they had to cut openings where they slept.
Possible cause of cutting and exiting might be collapsed snow or small slab avalanche above the tent.
The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something. And by the look of it they were scared to death of staying at the Tent. So it figures that they wanted to get away from the Tent very quickly, so quickly in fact that they didnt even stop to dress properly, thats how scared they were. And yet you say that they didnt try to escape in panic and hurry ! ? Think about it.
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I was surprized how close their storage (labaz) was from the tent. Almost as close as the cedar tree. Their best chances for survival was the storage, after the collapse. It makes perfect sense to descent quickly downhill to storage.
In the storage were nineteen items of food with a total weight of 55 kg. Also found were some medical supplies and Dyatlov’s warm outer boots, plus one pair of spare ski boots, a mandolin, a set of batteries and a lamp, and a mounting set.
Maybe Dyatlov decided to send two uninjured members (two Yuris) to storage to make fire beforehand for the rest of the group. Rest of the group left behind to dig out warm clothes and supplies from collapsed tent.
At the start two Yuris disoriented about 90 degrees to left and descended to cedar. They had same kind of disorienting to left earlier at the same day and got too high up Kholat Syakhl - magnetic anomaly or poor compass and bad visibility? It is very easy to get disoriented in the dark when you can travel rather quickly downhill.
At last two Yuris noticed they are disoriented and they can’t find storage. They made fire, climbed to cedar to signal rest of the group their whereabouts. Rest of the group descended to Two Yuris and they all perished there. Would they have survived, if they had descended correctly to the storage?
Edit: There were even firewood ready in the storage. Best chances for survival - food, firewood, medical supplies for injuries from collapse and at least two pairs of boots.
The Storage wasnt that close. The Dyatlov Group fled the Tent and made downhill towards the Forest and ended up near the Cedar Tree. This is what all the indications poiint to.
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why would they not pick through the warm clothing at the tent using the flashlight rather than head down the slope, in the freezing cold, not properly dressed
If the tent really collapsed, it was very good assessment of the situation and leadership from Igor Dyatlov. If we assume that there was 50 cm of snow, that makes around 1000kg. Digging that amount of snow bare hands takes time. Descending to storage, say around 2 km downhill take 15-20 mins. So Dyatlov calculated they had maybe 1 hour before their performance start to drop drastically. He send two Yuris to find path to storage and make fire beforehand. Rest of the group have some 30 mins time to dig supplies and then they quicly descent to storage after two Yuris and there were fire ready. Please remember they had firewood ready at the storage.
why would they leave a working flashlight and keep going in the dark if that is why they left the tent?
To mark the path to storage for the rest of the group. It makes perfect sense, if they decided to follow 30 mins after digging the tent.
So you think it was a good assessement of the situation by Igor ! ? Was it also a good idea to leave without being properly dressed ! ? Wouldnt it be more likely that Igor along with the others were in fear for their lives at some point and had no alternative but to leave the Tent very quickly.
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Then the rest of them left their only flashlight at the tent to walk down to the cedar in the dark, using the the flashlight laying the path and then walked past it down to the cedar in the dark?
Obviously they managed to get to the cedar. Didn’t they?
Why they missed the flashlight left marking the path? Maybe they had delay and battery was exhausted. Maybe they noticed two Yuris went wrong direction to almost certain death. What would you do in that situation? Leave two comrades missing and go to the storage or do you wait if they miraculously come back?
Two Yuris managed to make fire, they climbed 5 m to cedar, managed to signal their whereabouts and rest of the group descended to help comrades. Maybe that took considerable time and path marking light’s battery was exhausted already. But it is fact that they managed to get cedar.
More maybe's ! ? Doesnt really explain anything does it.
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The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something.
Fear is not only possible explanation why they exited the tent by that way. 5 evenly distributed neat cuts may be indication of collapsed snow wall or small avalanche. They got blocked so that only way was cut the tent where they slept and crawl out from the cuts.
So it figures that they wanted to get away from the Tent very quickly, so quickly in fact that they didnt even stop to dress properly, thats how scared they were.
If the reason was collapsed snow, it would have take quite long time to dig out the tent without shovels. Best chances of survival was descent to the storage. Distance to the storage was roughly same as to the cedar if you look at this map.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=40.0
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1. why would we assume 50 cm of snow on the tent when it was found "The north part was covered with 15-20 cm of snow. It was concluded from general appearance and density that it was not a result of an avalanche but blown by the wind"
That statement is unrealiable as you can see from this picture. Snow is not undisturbed wind blown snow. Searchers have done considerable digging before photo was taken and there is still lots of snow. The tent was 1 m high so there is much more snow in the front end. And why there was any snow in the tent if it had eroded other places so that even footprints were raised?
(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/nLe4lgJrYf1S_sd93STl8vrlzdM=/800x600/filters:no_upscale()/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/32/88/32881615-82e9-4616-98c4-9515e86e3f4b/dyatlov_pass_incident_02.jpg)
DPI Guru WAB commented in 2018 about digging the tent with ice axes. So it seems that there was more than 15-20 cm snow.
” in this question give Michael Sharavin who has found tent the first. In conversations at time 2009 … 2015 hi has explained that when they together with Boris Slobtsov have found tent. When they have started to dig out tent by ice axe. Ice axe has been in front and driven to forward rope of tent. As they did not know that is inside under snow, they intensively raked snow a beak of ice axe. There they have touched cloth of tent and have torn it. After that, when reconnaissance group assorted equipment about tent, cloth `s pieces were lost. He could not remember when it has occurred and as where them could carry away by wind or who that another took for other purposes.
Cheers,”
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=124.0
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so you are saying with that little bit of snow on the tent, it was impossible to get their warm clothing out? or did they quit digging when they could see the top of the tent?
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so you are saying with that little bit of snow on the tent, it was impossible to get their warm clothing out?
No, I am not talking about little bit of snow. Calculations in this study show that failed slab was 8.8m wide, 4.95 m long, 0.5m deep and 0.5m accumulated snow. Slab was not 1 m deep all along because it was upward thinning. That is quite lot of snow. Of course this is just calculations and we dont have exact parametres and evidence what really happened, but still this is according to laws of physics.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
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so you don't think this photo of the tent is how it was found by the searchers? because it would be easy to get warm clothing out of the tent as it is in the photo and they didn't.
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The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something.
Fear is not only possible explanation why they exited the tent by that way. 5 evenly distributed neat cuts may be indication of collapsed snow wall or small avalanche. They got blocked so that only way was cut the tent where they slept and crawl out from the cuts.
So it figures that they wanted to get away from the Tent very quickly, so quickly in fact that they didnt even stop to dress properly, thats how scared they were.
If the reason was collapsed snow, it would have take quite long time to dig out the tent without shovels. Best chances of survival was descent to the storage. Distance to the storage was roughly same as to the cedar if you look at this map.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=40.0
Collapsed snow ! ? Collapsed from what ! ? It wasnt an area where Avalanches occured.
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Collapsed snow ! ? Collapsed from what ! ? It wasnt an area where Avalanches occured.
Collapsed or failed slab. Calculations in this report matching with DPI parameters shows that slab is only 4.95 m x 8.8 m. Not exactly avalanche as most of us imagine, but still enough snow to bury tent and cause injuries.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
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If it buried the tent, why was the tent visible in the photo? The way the tent looks in the photo, the 9 could have easily gotten their warm gear out
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If it buried the tent, why was the tent visible in the photo? The way the tent looks in the photo, the 9 could have easily gotten their warm gear out
We can see from disturbed snow that searchers made digging before the photo was taken. There was 26 days before tent was found so eroding winds are factor also.
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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski
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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski
Good point, I was thinking exactly same. Force from snow slabs is calculated to cause moderate to severe, but not life threatening injuries (fig 5). Properly anchored ski hold upright or breaks. If the force would have been strong enough to break skis, they would be killed almost instantly. We can see that there is one broken ski pole, which is much weaker than ski. It was strong enough to break ski pole and ribs, but not enough to break properly anchored skis.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski
Good point, I was thinking exactly same. Force from snow slabs is calculated to cause moderate to severe, but not life threatening injuries (fig 5). Properly anchore ski stays put or breaks. If the force would have been strong enough to break skis, they would be killed almost instantly. We can se that there is one broken ski pole, which is much weaker. It was strong enough to break ski pole and ribs, but not properly anchored skis.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
The only part where this falls apart for me is the inclusion of the injuries at the tent site. With the injuries that Zolotaryev and Dubinina had, they would not have been able to walk the mile down to the cedar and on to the ravine. People *have* survived with extensive injuries but flail chest fractures with punctured organs are extremely difficult even under the best of circumstances. The extent of their injuries, I just do not think it was possible to them to then walk so far.
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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski
Good point, I was thinking exactly same. Force from snow slabs is calculated to cause moderate to severe, but not life threatening injuries (fig 5). Properly anchore ski stays put or breaks. If the force would have been strong enough to break skis, they would be killed almost instantly. We can se that there is one broken ski pole, which is much weaker. It was strong enough to break ski pole and ribs, but not properly anchored skis.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
The only part where this falls apart for me is the inclusion of the injuries at the tent site. With the injuries that Zolotaryev and Dubinina had, they would not have been able to walk the mile down to the cedar and on to the ravine. People *have* survived with extensive injuries but flail chest fractures with punctured organs are extremely difficult even under the best of circumstances. The extent of their injuries, I just do not think it was possible to them to then walk so far.
Agreed, it is higly doubtful they got severe thorax injuries and then walked down to forest. I think minor slab avalanche could be the cause to exit the tent. It prevented them to get supplies and warm clothes from the tent. Their best chances to survival was the storage, but they made navigation errror and descended to cedar and eventually died there. Major thorax injuries happened down at the forest.
Climbing to cedar is puzzling me. I explain myself they tried to communicate by means of light because they cut branches from cedar. To me such communication means split group.
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I like this theory. It explains the broken/cut ski pole found in the tent that I haven't read an explanation for yet.
I think the injuries could have happened at the tent actually. Maybe their broken ribs didn't immediately puncture internal organs, that may have happened later after a bad movement.
I think this might even explain the 8 tracks (and not 9). Maybe one of them - Thibo? - was so injured that he couldn't walk and they carried him down.
My contentions:- Isn't it strange that the most injured wore the most clothes? I don't think they would be the ones to survive longest, longer than the Yuris next to the fire.
- The standing skis that Tenne mentions above... And the fact that the tent didn't move. Don't you think in a slab avalanche scenario the tent would be moved? Most of the force is lateral.
Here's another version: Could it be that the avalanche only caught Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo? As they are the ones with the severe injuries but also the most clothes, so they might have been outside, smoking, talking, looking at the sky, something like that. And then a slab fails near them... The others would dig them out and decide that they need a heat source to warm them up, and maybe that is the reason to descend? This doesn't explain the cuts in the tent though.
By the way not all are cuts, I have also been considering that some are from the ice axe damage by searchers, some are tears along seams by the wind in the intervening month between the incident and the search... In fact the ones that are certain to be cuts are mostly horizontal, but still that the edges show tear does indicate that they used the hole to exit through.
Also, I don't know if you know this but basically you arrived at the same conclusion as the official Russian investigation last year.
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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski
Good point, I was thinking exactly same. Force from snow slabs is calculated to cause moderate to severe, but not life threatening injuries (fig 5). Properly anchored ski hold upright or breaks. If the force would have been strong enough to break skis, they would be killed almost instantly. We can see that there is one broken ski pole, which is much weaker than ski. It was strong enough to break ski pole and ribs, but not enough to break properly anchored skis.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
that makes sense
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- Isn't it strange that the most injured wore the most clothes? I don't think they would be the ones to survive longest, longer than the Yuris next to the fire.
Good point, it seems to me as selflesness, will to survive together and keep all comrades alive.
- The standing skis that Tenne mentions above... And the fact that the tent didn't move. Don't you think in a slab avalanche scenario the tent would be moved? Most of the force is lateral.
Yes, that needs explanation, propably they didn’t had fixed canvas floor on the tent so it was easy to move. Slab moved only few metres and velocity was low, 2 m/s. Nearest part of the snow just dropped down 0.5 metres by gravity (and snow mass anchored tent). Of course there was lateral movement over the tent otherwise they all had buried.
[/list]Here's another version: Could it be that the avalanche only caught Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo? As they are the ones with the severe injuries but also the most clothes, so they might have been outside, smoking, talking, looking at the sky, something like that. And then a slab fails near them... The others would dig them out and decide that they need a heat source to warm them up, and maybe that is the reason to descend? This doesn't explain the cuts in the tent though.
Good point. Another explanation could be the sleeping order. If some of them slept head toward uphill and others toward downhill, so thorax and head injuries occured to persons head toward downhill. There is short movies about the simulation in the end of this article.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
Short movie of the simulation:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
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- Isn't it strange that the most injured wore the most clothes? I don't think they would be the ones to survive longest, longer than the Yuris next to the fire.
Good point, it seems to me as selflesness, will to survive together and keep all comrades alive.
- The standing skis that Tenne mentions above... And the fact that the tent didn't move. Don't you think in a slab avalanche scenario the tent would be moved? Most of the force is lateral.
Yes, that needs explanation, propably they didn’t had fixed canvas floor on the tent so it was easy to move. Slab moved only few metres and velocity was low, 2 m/s. Nearest part of the snow just dropped down 0.5 metres by gravity (and snow mass anchored tent). Of course there was lateral movement over the tent otherwise they all had buried.
[/list]Here's another version: Could it be that the avalanche only caught Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo? As they are the ones with the severe injuries but also the most clothes, so they might have been outside, smoking, talking, looking at the sky, something like that. And then a slab fails near them... The others would dig them out and decide that they need a heat source to warm them up, and maybe that is the reason to descend? This doesn't explain the cuts in the tent though.
Good point. Another explanation could be the sleeping order. If some of them slept head toward uphill and others toward downhill, so thorax and head injuries occured to persons head toward downhill. There is short movies about the simulation in the end of this article.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
Short movie of the simulation:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
Going by the pictures, I personally don't believe there was an attached floor to the tent. I am pretty certain it was just a canvas tarp, and might be listed in the inventories. It would make more sense as a separate piece, as that would allow the weight of the tent to be broken up some for carrying.
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Collapsed snow ! ? Collapsed from what ! ? It wasnt an area where Avalanches occured.
Collapsed or failed slab. Calculations in this report matching with DPI parameters shows that slab is only 4.95 m x 8.8 m. Not exactly avalanche as most of us imagine, but still enough snow to bury tent and cause injuries.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
Well the Searchers who found the Tent didnt mention any thing of Avalanche or other type of Snow Incident, they said that there was Snow on the Tent.
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If it buried the tent, why was the tent visible in the photo? The way the tent looks in the photo, the 9 could have easily gotten their warm gear out
We can see from disturbed snow that searchers made digging before the photo was taken. There was 26 days before tent was found so eroding winds are factor also.
What about the Footprints ! ?
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Did they put the skis back up right as well when they found the tent? Because I would assume that an avalanche that buried a tent would also knock over the ski
Good point, I was thinking exactly same. Force from snow slabs is calculated to cause moderate to severe, but not life threatening injuries (fig 5). Properly anchore ski stays put or breaks. If the force would have been strong enough to break skis, they would be killed almost instantly. We can se that there is one broken ski pole, which is much weaker. It was strong enough to break ski pole and ribs, but not properly anchored skis.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
The only part where this falls apart for me is the inclusion of the injuries at the tent site. With the injuries that Zolotaryev and Dubinina had, they would not have been able to walk the mile down to the cedar and on to the ravine. People *have* survived with extensive injuries but flail chest fractures with punctured organs are extremely difficult even under the best of circumstances. The extent of their injuries, I just do not think it was possible to them to then walk so far.
Agreed, it is higly doubtful they got severe thorax injuries and then walked down to forest. I think minor slab avalanche could be the cause to exit the tent. It prevented them to get supplies and warm clothes from the tent. Their best chances to survival was the storage, but they made navigation errror and descended to cedar and eventually died there. Major thorax injuries happened down at the forest.
Climbing to cedar is puzzling me. I explain myself they tried to communicate by means of light because they cut branches from cedar. To me such communication means split group.
Minor slab avalanche ! ? In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.
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- Isn't it strange that the most injured wore the most clothes? I don't think they would be the ones to survive longest, longer than the Yuris next to the fire.
Good point, it seems to me as selflesness, will to survive together and keep all comrades alive.
- The standing skis that Tenne mentions above... And the fact that the tent didn't move. Don't you think in a slab avalanche scenario the tent would be moved? Most of the force is lateral.
Are you referring to the Head Injuries that probably killed some of the Group. In which case how did they end up a mile away ! ?
Yes, that needs explanation, propably they didn’t had fixed canvas floor on the tent so it was easy to move. Slab moved only few metres and velocity was low, 2 m/s. Nearest part of the snow just dropped down 0.5 metres by gravity (and snow mass anchored tent). Of course there was lateral movement over the tent otherwise they all had buried.
[/list]Here's another version: Could it be that the avalanche only caught Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo? As they are the ones with the severe injuries but also the most clothes, so they might have been outside, smoking, talking, looking at the sky, something like that. And then a slab fails near them... The others would dig them out and decide that they need a heat source to warm them up, and maybe that is the reason to descend? This doesn't explain the cuts in the tent though.
Good point. Another explanation could be the sleeping order. If some of them slept head toward uphill and others toward downhill, so thorax and head injuries occured to persons head toward downhill. There is short movies about the simulation in the end of this article.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
Short movie of the simulation:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
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The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something.
What was the cause of fear? We don’t have any evidence of any reasonable cause.
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Minor slab avalanche ! ? In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.
Sorry, english is not my native language, but in this report they use words ”release of a small snow slab”. Maybe my phrasing of minor slab avalance was totally wrong.
”Here, we show that—even though the occurrence of an avalanche at this location is unlikely under natural conditions—the combination of four critical factors allowed the release of a small snow slab directly above the tent.”
How much snow released in to the tent? Tent was around 8 squaremetres and if the snow was around 0.5m deep that is around 1500 kg. An we can see from simulation that slab didn’t fall entirely. If you try to dig, more snow will fall down to the tent. And please note, this is not animation, it is simulation based on calculations.
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
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The Dyatlov Group left the Tent because they feared something.
What was the cause of fear? We don’t have any evidence of any reasonable cause.
Of course we dont have any Evidence otherwise this Case would be wrapped up straight away. There were no other people at the Tent when the Dyatlov Group fled with no proper clothing or equipment. Seems like they feared something.
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Minor slab avalanche ! ? In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.
Sorry, english is not my native language, but in this report they use words ”release of a small snow slab”. Maybe my phrasing of minor slab avalance was totally wrong.
”Here, we show that—even though the occurrence of an avalanche at this location is unlikely under natural conditions—the combination of four critical factors allowed the release of a small snow slab directly above the tent.”
How much snow released in to the tent? Tent was around 8 squaremetres and if the snow was around 0.5m deep that is around 1500 kg. An we can see from simulation that slab didn’t fall entirely. If you try to dig, more snow will fall down to the tent. And please note, this is not animation, it is simulation based on calculations.
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs43247-020-00081-8/MediaObjects/43247_2020_81_MOESM4_ESM.mp4
Small Snow Slab ! ? Once again. They would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.
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Seems like they feared something.
But you can't provide any credible explanation. What cause of fear made them rip the tent and leave without proper clothing? Zero evidence of physical threat. Not even gradually increasing anxiety or fear (stalker behind them or infrasound) would have made them rip tent open (better use proper door) and escape to cold without proper clothing. Only explanation come to my mind is sound and I can't imagine any sound that cause 9 persons rip tent and escape instantly without proper clothing to almost certain death.
Other explanation is release of a small snow slab, which prevented collecting proper clothing.
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The Storage wasnt that close.
How distant was that storage? We all have same maps, so the distance is very easy to measure. Please provide your number?
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I have read the recent links posted here to the Russian forum where it's claimed candles, clothing pins etc. were found at the pass by members of the public (in the last few years).
According to the tent location based on those finds, the labaz was closer than the cedar.... But even according to the more traditional tent location indicated on maps on this site, the distance is about equal.
Minor slab avalanche ! ? In that case they would have been able to recover all their clothing and equipment. In fact they would have been able to gather up the Tent and go down to the Treeline.
Sorry, english is not my native language, but in this report they use words ”release of a small snow slab”. Maybe my phrasing of minor slab avalance was totally wrong.
”Here, we show that—even though the occurrence of an avalanche at this location is unlikely under natural conditions—the combination of four critical factors allowed the release of a small snow slab directly above the tent.”
How much snow released in to the tent? Tent was around 8 squaremetres and if the snow was around 0.5m deep that is around 1500 kg. An we can see from simulation that slab didn’t fall entirely. If you try to dig, more snow will fall down to the tent. And please note, this is not animation, it is simulation based on calculations.
I'm not an expert on snow or avalanches, thought I have seen more snow than I ever wanted.. but what this video seems to show is almost a block of ice. If we assume the raised footprints indeed existed, those can only be formed in powder snow. Avalanche can also occur in powder snow but that's not what this video shows...
And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
And lastly......... I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing they would sleep in a "head to toe" formation...... I have done that in a tent and it's very.... uncomfortable........... Just consider that they had no opportunity to shower for several days.....
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I'm not an expert on snow or avalanches, thought I have seen more snow than I ever wanted.. but what this video seems to show is almost a block of ice. If we assume the raised footprints indeed existed, those can only be formed in powder snow. Avalanche can also occur in powder snow but that's not what this video shows...
Yes, that is hard to grasp for me. To my understanding important points are:
-local topography is small depression with rather steep angle, 28 to 30 degrees
-weak, low friction layer of snow was due to local depression steep angle
-wind blown snow filled local depressions (also like in the ravine) and built uniform layer of snow, which was angled like terrain as a whole (lower than traditional avalanche threshold)
-Snow layer above weak layer was deep at the depression, but thin above depression
-Thin top doesn't leave deep and distinct crack line typical to slab avalanche, so it's hard to tell afterwards if any slab was released
-Everything is good as long as snow layer is uniform, this is most important, spontaneous avalanches never occur if layer is uniform
-If you disturb the uniform layer and make cut wide enough to the deep snow on depression, the layer lose support from below
-If you cut snow, layer is supported only from friction from weak layer and by thin layer above the local depression
-Slab could release immeadiately if the angles are steep enough, but in Dyatlov case angle was not and it didn't come down immediately as they was digging place for tent
-In windy conditions snow accumulated to cut (Wind slab) and increased load so that it overcome support from friction and upper thin layer
-basically it was delayed release of a small snow slab, not avalanche as most of us imagine avalance is
To me this situation is analogous in mechanism and scale to snow sliding from metal roof like in this picture. Metal roof is "weak layer" of low friction, snow is already broken free from top "thin layer" and supported only from below and friction of the metal roof. I wouldn't cut this snow and sleep under it in the cut.
(https://s3files.core77.com/blog/images/2014/02/0schneestops-001.jpg)
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
You've hit on an excellent point. There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958. That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident. It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome. It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
You've hit on an excellent point. There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958. That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident. It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome. It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.
Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
You've hit on an excellent point. There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958. That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident. It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome. It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.
Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.
I completely agree with you on the conspiracy and inefficient bureaucracy. Especially at this time when Khruschev was promoting decentralization but had not given regions authority to pick up the slack. It was way too confusing to everyone for there to be any grand conspiracy involving the higher ups, in my opinion. But because there was so much invested in promoting outdoor tourism, one bad incident would be a huge public relations disaster and nine dead, young hikers was a very bad incident!!!
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
You've hit on an excellent point. There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958. That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident. It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome. It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.
Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.
I completely agree with you on the conspiracy and inefficient bureaucracy. Especially at this time when Khruschev was promoting decentralization but had not given regions authority to pick up the slack. It was way too confusing to everyone for there to be any grand conspiracy involving the higher ups, in my opinion. But because there was so much invested in promoting outdoor tourism, one bad incident would be a huge public relations disaster and nine dead, young hikers was a very bad incident!!!
Totally agree with You. I have always said as a training instructor of FDF that orienteering skill is privilege of free citizen like 2nd amendment of US Constitution (this is nothing against the Soviet people, I think the group was exemplary of selflessness and comradeship). This is totally my personal speculation, but in my opinion they hadn't good orienteering skills. They did only under 2 km trek on the day before incident and they made navigation error for not going through pass but instead ascended too high up to Kholat Syakhl.
Personally my roughest experience trek like this was light infantry company march training above arctic circle in Finland roughly at the same time of year. In the excercise we were chased by the "enemy" and we had to trek some 80 km in time bit over 24 hours. We had around 40 kg backpacks plus all company equipment in sleds. O'boy we made minor mistakes in squad and platoon level and see all kinds of supernatural phenomenons grin1 But eventually we made it to the goal. The most crucial was orienteering skill. As a company we had excellent navigator (without GPS) and we made it. The excercise was two weeks long, I slept two days almost continuously after the march and excercise grin1.
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
You've hit on an excellent point. There was A youth tourism bureau created in 1958, also called "Sputnik," and the biathlon became an Olympic sport in 1958. That is all less than a year before the Dyatlov incident. It is my personal belief that this is why Khruschev was involved in the search outcome. It was bad PR when they were encouraging the sport.
Thank You for additional info. I have been all my career as an official in western country in Finland, but we have many common similarities to Russian bureaucracy (because we was part of Russia until 1917). I think official bureaucracy is inefficient and "stovepiped" from information sharing point of view, so that inefficiency and mistakes seems almost like conspiracy. I don't believe that in any case this was conspiracy of for example Soviet Army and KGB. Stovepiped bureaucracy was so strong, that such conspiracy was impossible (Soviet Army and KGB was different agencys). To me all officials and official work seems perfectly usual (stovepiped, bureucratic, inefficient) and people involved in this case honest. To me highest authority interest and state interest cause was threat to "lose face" in public opinion. That is exactly what we had in our country those times and maybe all countries had same kind of interests.
I completely agree with you on the conspiracy and inefficient bureaucracy. Especially at this time when Khruschev was promoting decentralization but had not given regions authority to pick up the slack. It was way too confusing to everyone for there to be any grand conspiracy involving the higher ups, in my opinion. But because there was so much invested in promoting outdoor tourism, one bad incident would be a huge public relations disaster and nine dead, young hikers was a very bad incident!!!
Totally agree with You. I have always said as a training instructor of FDF that orienteering skill is privilege of free citizen like 2nd amendment of US Constitution (this is nothing against the Soviet people, I think the group was exemplary of selflessness and comradeship). This is totally my personal speculation, but in my opinion they hadn't good orienteering skills. They did only under 2 km trek on the day before incident and they made navigation error for not going through pass but instead ascended too high up to Kholat Syakhl.
Personally my roughest experience trek like this was light infantry company march training above arctic circle in Finland roughly at the same time of year. In the excercise we were chased by the "enemy" and we had to trek some 80 km in time bit over 24 hours. We had around 40 kg backpacks plus all company equipment in sleds. O'boy we made minor mistakes in squad and platoon level and see all kinds of supernatural phenomenons grin1 But eventually we made it to the goal. The most crucial was orienteering skill. As a company we had excellent navigator (without GPS) and we made it. The excercise was two weeks long, I slept two days almost continuously after the march and excercise grin1.
That sounds brutal but what an experience!!!
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Seems like they feared something.
But you can't provide any credible explanation. What cause of fear made them rip the tent and leave without proper clothing? Zero evidence of physical threat. Not even gradually increasing anxiety or fear (stalker behind them or infrasound) would have made them rip tent open (better use proper door) and escape to cold without proper clothing. Only explanation come to my mind is sound and I can't imagine any sound that cause 9 persons rip tent and escape instantly without proper clothing to almost certain death.
Other explanation is release of a small snow slab, which prevented collecting proper clothing.
Without Evidence no one can provide a credible explanation. Thats obvious. But do you really think that a small snow slab would force the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge and go a mile not properly dressed in minus 20 degrees Centigrade or more ! ? That doesnt make sense to me.
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But do you really think that a small snow slab would force the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge and go a mile not properly dressed in minus 20 degrees Centigrade or more ! ? That doesnt make sense to me.
That was 1500 kg of snow and another 1500 kg coming down as they tried to dig the tent. Their skis was under the tent so they had to dig bare hands. My estimation is based roughly 8 m x 5 m triangular snow slab average thickness of 0.5 m.
If we look photographs of the tent, we can clearly see that the wall is missing when searchers found the tent. In photograph below we can see they are digging roughly 1 m deep place and wall to the tent.
(https://i.natgeofe.com/n/777e4ef7-ea28-4b83-b09d-b1b232c69e64/dyatlov-photos-12.jpg?w=636&h=431)
We cannot see such a wall in photograph below so the wall disappeared. Was the cause release of snow slab or wind?
(https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/nLe4lgJrYf1S_sd93STl8vrlzdM=/800x600/filters:no_upscale()/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/32/88/32881615-82e9-4616-98c4-9515e86e3f4b/dyatlov_pass_incident_02.jpg)
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1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?
In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?
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1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?
In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?
All very good questions.
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1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?
In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?
My calculation based 20 squaremetre slab, average thickness of 0.5 m. 10 cubic metres is roughly 3000-4000 kg. Velocity was so slow that when tent spot was filled, rest of the slab stay above the tent. So there was from hundreds of kilos to 1500 kg of snow in the tent. Because this wasn't really avalance (velocity about 2 m/s), snow was not like a cement, it was more fluffy and chunky so it was possible to crawl out of the snow. And of course when you are in the tent, snow doesn't lock your feet and arms because it cannot go between your body and arms, on between your feet. So you have a bit more freedom of movement in the tent.
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1500kg of snow distributed over a 8m x 5m triangle. I guess depends on the shape of the triangle... Is it fair to say that's 75kg / square meter?
In an avalanche scenario people usually can't free themselves and need someone else to dig them out. So how did they even get out from under the snow? Alternatively if it was not enough snow and they could dig themselves out, they could have stayed there more and also dug out warm clothes? Or were they afraid there's more snow to come? Then why walk downhill, right into the path of the potential next avalanche?
My calculation based 20 squaremetre slab, average thickness of 0.5 m. 10 cubic metres is roughly 3000-4000 kg. Velocity was so slow that when tent spot was filled, rest of the slab stay above the tent. So there was from hundreds of kilos to 1500 kg of snow in the tent. Because this wasn't really avalance (velocity about 2 m/s), snow was not like a cement, it was more fluffy and chunky so it was possible to crawl out of the snow. And of course when you are in the tent, snow doesn't lock your feet and arms because it cannot go between your body and arms, on between your feet. So you have a bit more freedom of movement in the tent.
Plausible.....
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
Yes, I knew that but was freaking out when I see this, 1700 units at the tent. If the units are milliradians, that would be over 90 degrees. But when looked closely, units are not related to angles and magnetic anomaly doesn't affect compass. Still they made systematic navigational errors at Kholat Syakhl. They navigated too much left and ended high up near the top when they should go right through the pass. At night they navigated too much left and ended to cedar, instead of the storage.
"Aleksander Alekseenkov, a researcher of the tragedy from Moscow, told about this during the annual Dyatlov group conference in Yekaterinburg, February 2, 2021. For many years in a row, twice a year (in summer and winter), he traveled to the Dyatlov Pass to conduct various experiments. "My expectations were justified: a magnetic anomaly was discovered a few hundred meters from the tent site, - said Aleksander Alekseenkov. - The gradient (spread) of the measurement was from several units to several tens of units, and in that place - right up to 1700 units, that is, the difference is several orders of magnitude.""
To me going to cedar instead of the storage is even greater mystery than reason to leave tent without proper clothing.
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There were two flashlights found at the scene. one at the tent, and the one further down the slope was still working when found. why would they not pick through the warm clothing at the tent using the flashlight rather than head down the slope, in the freezing cold, not properly dressed and why would they leave a working flashlight and keep going in the dark if that is why they left the tent?
The small number of flashlights baffles me. They were experienced hikers and they knew they would be spending many nights (dark nights) on this expedition. Why not each of them make sure they each have a flashlight. And what about batteries for the flashlights - I haven't seen batteries mentioned anywhere.
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
Yes, I knew that but was freaking out when I see this, 1700 units at the tent. If the units are milliradians, that would be over 90 degrees. But when looked closely, units are not related to angles and magnetic anomaly doesn't affect compass. Still they made systematic navigational errors at Kholat Syakhl. They navigated too much left and ended high up near the top when they should go right through the pass. At night they navigated too much left and ended to cedar, instead of the storage.
"Aleksander Alekseenkov, a researcher of the tragedy from Moscow, told about this during the annual Dyatlov group conference in Yekaterinburg, February 2, 2021. For many years in a row, twice a year (in summer and winter), he traveled to the Dyatlov Pass to conduct various experiments. "My expectations were justified: a magnetic anomaly was discovered a few hundred meters from the tent site, - said Aleksander Alekseenkov. - The gradient (spread) of the measurement was from several units to several tens of units, and in that place - right up to 1700 units, that is, the difference is several orders of magnitude.""
To me going to cedar instead of the storage is even greater mystery than reason to leave tent without proper clothing.
Interesting!!!!
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Their compasses were not so realiable. Do we have copies of photographs of their maps? How good and realiable the maps we? Did they have radio receiver for weather forecast or did they had barometer to forecast weather fronts and closing storms or were they almost blind in respect to possible storm fronts (ofc you can forecast something just looking at the sky)?
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And even if you look at typical injuries in avalanche victims, major chest injury or broken skull isn't one of them... unless the snow dislodged something hard and that hit Thibo on his head.
Yes, injuries were atypical to avalanche injuries. In this case victims were laying in fixed, solid floor (compressed snow and skis) like anvil.
I dont believe they got fatal injuries from this event. If we assume autopsy reports accurate, some injuries were fatal and would caused death in 20 minutes. To me, this delayed release of a small snow slab was decisive event to explain of exiting tent and leaving it without proper clothing, but not explanation of fatal injuries. Next decisive point was their navigation error to cedar instead of labaz.
How well Igor remembered their route without map? Where was his map, in the tent or with him? Could he remember correct directions without map and their tracks from day possibly buried in snow (terrain is quite monotonous and uneventful)? How good was Soviet orienteering training in those times? If I remember correct, compasses were also under some kind of state control or state owned. Compassess were not their own, they were allowed from the university. If I remember correct they had only wrist compassess, which I personally see notoriously inaccurate based on my practical experience.
I think (pure speculation) state didn't encourage individual orienteering skills because it was possibly useful skill in civil unrest and guerrilla warfare against the state but contrary to states will to harden citizens in programs like encourage youth to trekking demanding situations. Was this the reason for state involvement and interest to this case? They had encouraged touring without proper basic skills and training and this case was doing bad publicity for the state.
An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
Yes, I knew that but was freaking out when I see this, 1700 units at the tent. If the units are milliradians, that would be over 90 degrees. But when looked closely, units are not related to angles and magnetic anomaly doesn't affect compass. Still they made systematic navigational errors at Kholat Syakhl. They navigated too much left and ended high up near the top when they should go right through the pass. At night they navigated too much left and ended to cedar, instead of the storage.
"Aleksander Alekseenkov, a researcher of the tragedy from Moscow, told about this during the annual Dyatlov group conference in Yekaterinburg, February 2, 2021. For many years in a row, twice a year (in summer and winter), he traveled to the Dyatlov Pass to conduct various experiments. "My expectations were justified: a magnetic anomaly was discovered a few hundred meters from the tent site, - said Aleksander Alekseenkov. - The gradient (spread) of the measurement was from several units to several tens of units, and in that place - right up to 1700 units, that is, the difference is several orders of magnitude.""
To me going to cedar instead of the storage is even greater mystery than reason to leave tent without proper clothing.
Interesting!!!!
Their last leg was possibly first they had to rely on instrument navigation only without visibility. Previous days they followed rivers, streams and terrain contours in relatively good visibility. If those last picture are genuine, they had poor visibility and so it was no wonder they missed Dyatlov pass and ended high up in the mountain. They wouldn't have done that in good visibility even with malfuctioning compasses. I bet they didn't even know their exact location when they put up tent. Night descent from top was kind of instrumental navigation also because of darkness. So in the big picture those last photographs and end results are plausibly matching and there is no need to assume any outside threat, conspiracy, murder or staging of the tent. All was due to poor judgement and wrong decisions. To be sure they should have descent back to labaz when they got caught by storm and poor visibility.
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Keep in mind in all of this it's the middle of the night, very windy and snowy, visibility is very poor. you have three injured and you know you need to get to the woods where you have supplies asap. You are only going to take what you need. You can also come back the following day to get the rest, but to survive you must make it to the storage. This theory makes a lot of sense. The whole objective once out of the tent was not to get stuff out of the tent but to get to the storage to safety. I would present this, if this snow bank did in fact fall on the tent injuring some and forcing people to cut themselves out, don't you imagine it would play out very similar to what happened. The amount of snow on the tent when searchers find it is no big deal, it has mostly blown away.
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Keep in mind in all of this it's the middle of the night, very windy and snowy, visibility is very poor. you have three injured and you know you need to get to the woods where you have supplies asap. You are only going to take what you need. You can also come back the following day to get the rest, but to survive you must make it to the storage. This theory makes a lot of sense. The whole objective once out of the tent was not to get stuff out of the tent but to get to the storage to safety. I would present this, if this snow bank did in fact fall on the tent injuring some and forcing people to cut themselves out, don't you imagine it would play out very similar to what happened. The amount of snow on the tent when searchers find it is no big deal, it has mostly blown away.
Well I would want to be properly dressed for a start, it was probably at least minus 20 Degrees Centigrade. They know that the Forest is about a mile away.
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An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
Hmm where is this information from? Measurement by Aleksander Alekseenkov of a magnetic anomaly of "1700 units"? Which units?
I'm not an expert on most things related to the Dyatlov Pass incident at all but regarding this, I am pretty darn sure there is no place except close to the North and South Poles where compasses don't work. A "magnetic anomaly" will usually be due to ore deposits below ground or groundwater, or a magma chamber... even the most prominent ones will have no effect on a compass because they are thousands of times weaker than the Earth's magnetic field and mostly just shield it, rather than generate their own field. That would require something like flowing current or swirling molten metal...
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An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is a magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me a couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
Hmm where is this information from? Measurement by Aleksander Alekseenkov of a magnetic anomaly of "1700 units"? Which units?
I'm not an expert on most things related to the Dyatlov Pass incident at all but regarding this, I am pretty darn sure there is no place except close to the North and South Poles where compasses don't work. A "magnetic anomaly" will usually be due to ore deposits below ground or groundwater, or a magma chamber... even the most prominent ones will have no effect on a compass because they are thousands of times weaker than the Earth's magnetic field and mostly just shield it, rather than generate their own field. That would require something like flowing current or swirling molten metal...
You are correct; the anomaly doesn't effect compasses. I missed that in the mention of Alekseenkov.
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An interesting possibility, regarding navigation at the pass. Remember that there is magnetic anomaly there; compasses don't work there. Sorry, it took me couple of days to remember that, lol!!! If the group wanted to head to the storage and their compasses were acting wonky and visibility was low with the wind throwing snow around, could that be a plausible reason that they'd wind up at the cedar if they were trying to get to the storage?
Hmm where is this information from? Measurement by Aleksander Alekseenkov of a magnetic anomaly of "1700 units"? Which units?
Sorry, I don't have the ability read and respond to all forum posts yet, but if there is something I know well and can answer briefly and completely, I try to do so.
Manti, you are absolutely right ask these questions.
Back at the end of last summer we had conversation and the internet about this "anomaly."
Here are some summaries of that conversation
(if anyone is interested, here is the link in Russian https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/?x=read&razdel=17&tema=223&start=0 , post from 26.08.2020 04:34,):
1. Shura honestly and accurately did his job of measuring the magnetic field strength in the area where the tent was set up. There can be no complaints to him. And he honestly published all the results and got the interpretation in the form of graphs from specialist and check the value of the field strength.
2.Then followed the need realize these results in the form of physical quantities, their impact and practical application in this case.
3.All units were given in fractions and integers of nanoTesla per 1 meter of length, which means they have dimensions = 10 to the minus 9 degree or fractions and integers of billionths part of magnitude. The maximum strength value there was 1700 nTl/m or 1.7 microTesla per 1 meter.
4.A magnet from very strong sounding speaker (Russian magnetic alloy ЮН14ДК-25БА) has residual induction of 1.3 Tesla (according to the passport), so at distance of 1 meter the magnetic field strength will be 1.3 Tesla/m. If you consider that at distance of 4 meters or 12 ft (in fact even less) already has almost no effect on the compass needle (this cannot be detected by the simple eye). If you compare this to maximum = 1.7 µTl/m, it is about 6 orders of magnitude (1,000,000 times less) than near sounding speaker.
5.The result is that this "anomaly", which is 400 meters (~ 0.25 mi) to the southeast, could in no way affect the compass, even if it were used determine direction during all events. Even purely theoretically.
6.Strong "inflating" of the influence of this anomaly, can be an example of how you can make an elephant out from fly, without using genetic engineering. grin1
7.Shura understood it perfectly well himself, but he did his research not for that, but to be able estimate how much this change could affect winter thunderstorm, if it was there at the time.
I'm not an expert on most things related to the Dyatlov Pass incident at all but regarding this, I am pretty darn sure there is no place except close to the North and South Poles where compasses don't work. A "magnetic anomaly" will usually be due to ore deposits below ground or groundwater, or a magma chamber... even the most prominent ones will have no effect on a compass because they are thousands of times weaker than the Earth's magnetic field and mostly just shield it, rather than generate their own field. That would require something like flowing current or swirling molten metal...
There is no objection here either. There are three clarifications:
1.The compass does not work only on the Magnetic Poles, but they do not coincide with the geographical poles. And all the time change their position. Therefore, the angle between the direction to the Geographic North Pole and the direction of the magnetic arrow changes.
2.There are no appreciable deposits of magnetic ores in the area of the pass, so the compass behaves there as it does in the rest of the region on average. There are magnetic iron deposits on Mt. Chistop (this is 40 km or 25 mi to the south-south-east) and there are many anomalous phenomena associated with magnetism and electricity. This is the closest place with strong magnetic anomaly.
3. We have checked the effects on the compass needle at this location three times, by Polaris and GPS marks. Now there stable eastern magnetic declination of 19.5 degrees for at least 12 years.
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Thank you WAB for this detailed and scientific answer, much appreciated!
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Collapsed snow ! ? Collapsed from what ! ? It wasnt an area where Avalanches occured.
Collapsed or failed slab. Calculations in this report matching with DPI parameters shows that slab is only 4.95 m x 8.8 m. Not exactly avalanche as most of us imagine, but still enough snow to bury tent and cause injuries.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8#MOESM3
Well the Searchers who found the Tent didnt mention any thing of Avalanche or other type of Snow Incident, they said that there was Snow on the Tent.
They were also college idiots that ripped into the tent and started the decimation process.
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Of course... its also obvious they never frantically slashed their way outta the tent either.
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I can't understand that part... what if the Dyatlov group was inside the tent, frozen dead? And the searchers risk crushing them with an ice ax? Just one more thing about this whole case that seems to make no sense...
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I can't understand that part... what if the Dyatlov group was inside the tent, frozen dead? And the searchers risk crushing them with an ice ax? Just one more thing about this whole case that seems to make no sense...
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=205.0
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Thank you, now it makes sense!
Is there a list somewhere of "common myths" about the case like this one about the cuts and tears in the tent that might very well be due to it being dragged 700m by the searchers?
I suspect much of the oft-repeated facts of the case aren't, in fact, facts..
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I suspect much of the oft-repeated facts of the case aren't, in fact, facts..
I share your suspicion.
Is there a list somewhere of "common myths" about the case like this one about the cuts and tears in the tent that might very well be due to it being dragged 700m by the searchers?
Not that I know of... Come to think of it, that could be a thread topic of its own. I'll start one!
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Just where are the knives that did this to the tent? How many would it take to do all that damage? 3-4? Where are they? The "large knife" was left unused by the bread.. and the only other knife that I know of was a pocket knife one of the guys in the woods had.. And how long would it take you to do that with a single pocket knife..That tent is what, 10-12 feet long. And, what are those tears on the top right? No one could try to escape out of those cuts, so high up and horizontal. But, where are the knives? This doesnt look like a panicked situation to me..I dont think they cut their way out as believed they did.
The hikers didnt do this..
(https://i.ibb.co/4sfNmB0/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z85fnKt)
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Just where are the knives that did this to the tent? How many would it take to do all that damage? 3-4? Where are they? The "large knife" was left unused by the bread.. and the only other knife that I know of was a pocket knife one of the guys in the woods had.. And how long would it take you to do that with a single pocket knife..That tent is what, 10-12 feet long. And, what are those tears on the top right? No one could try to escape out of those cuts, so high up and horizontal. But, where are the knives? This doesnt look like a panicked situation to me..I dont think they cut their way out as believed they did.
The hikers didnt do this..
Its still a highly contentious issue about how the Cuts got made and by what and by whom. My first thoughts on reading of the Dyatlov Incident was that a Bear had attacked the Tent. But obviously as you get stuck into the matter it becomes less likely that that happened.
(https://i.ibb.co/4sfNmB0/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z85fnKt)
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Just where are the knives that did this to the tent? How many would it take to do all that damage? 3-4? Where are they? The "large knife" was left unused by the bread.. and the only other knife that I know of was a pocket knife one of the guys in the woods had.. And how long would it take you to do that with a single pocket knife..That tent is what, 10-12 feet long. And, what are those tears on the top right? No one could try to escape out of those cuts, so high up and horizontal. But, where are the knives? This doesnt look like a panicked situation to me..I dont think they cut their way out as believed they did.
The hikers didnt do this..
Its still a highly contentious issue about how the Cuts got made and by what and by whom. My first thoughts on reading of the Dyatlov Incident was that a Bear had attacked the Tent. But obviously as you get stuck into the matter it becomes less likely that that happened.
(https://i.ibb.co/4sfNmB0/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z85fnKt)
A moose ,maybe.. I wonder, do they have rabies like diseases there??
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if someone else did this to the tent.. I would think they would have done it from the inside.. Because the tent , from the outside, would be leaning away from them towards the peak. ..
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Look at the top left part of this photo.
This has modern editing / retouching artefacts. This is not a verbatim photo from 1959.
Has it been only "enhanced"? Or more? There are similar artefacts in the top middle part. And then the bottom right.
If you read the testimonies of the searchers, they describe one cut or tear. Whatever this is a photo of, might not even be the Dyatlov tent, it's also not one photo but several edited together in modern times (showing digital artefacts), several things were edited out of the photos (artefacts left by Photoshop "stamp tool" or similar, that is, duplicating an existing part of the photo and copying it repeatedly over another part, often to cover something). Even if the original photos showed the Dyatlov tent as it was examined... most of the damage was done after the tent was found.
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(https://i.ibb.co/0VFCHfx/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.png)
Some of the very obvious editing artefacts, also light is coming from different directions in different parts of the image...
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I do see some of the anomalies.. But that doesnt mean its fraudulent.. But troublesome, yes..
I dont think the damage was from moving the tent tho. They would have had to drag it fully opened, to do that.
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Just where are the knives that did this to the tent? How many would it take to do all that damage? 3-4? Where are they? The "large knife" was left unused by the bread.. and the only other knife that I know of was a pocket knife one of the guys in the woods had.. And how long would it take you to do that with a single pocket knife..That tent is what, 10-12 feet long. And, what are those tears on the top right? No one could try to escape out of those cuts, so high up and horizontal. But, where are the knives? This doesnt look like a panicked situation to me..I dont think they cut their way out as believed they did.
The hikers didnt do this..
Its still a highly contentious issue about how the Cuts got made and by what and by whom. My first thoughts on reading of the Dyatlov Incident was that a Bear had attacked the Tent. But obviously as you get stuck into the matter it becomes less likely that that happened.
(https://i.ibb.co/4sfNmB0/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z85fnKt)
A moose ,maybe.. I wonder, do they have rabies like diseases there??
A Moose ! ? Would make even more mess than a Bear, The Moose would stampede all over the place.
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I was thinking the tears i the tent could be from something with antlers. Something that wouldn't be interested in the meat they had sitting out
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Not a bad idea but moose shed antlers before winter and start growing them again only in spring. Female moose have no antlers.
Male reindeer also shed antlers for the winter but females don't.. So maybe a female reindeer was too curious, peeked into the tent and got stuck?
It's more "friendly" compared to a moose so maybe wouldn't cause the group to abandon the tent altogether though..
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Ahh.. Thank you. I ddnt know that.. City girl here okey1
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Not a bad idea but moose shed antlers before winter and start growing them again only in spring. Female moose have no antlers.
Male reindeer also shed antlers for the winter but females don't.. So maybe a female reindeer was too curious, peeked into the tent and got stuck?
It's more "friendly" compared to a moose so maybe wouldn't cause the group to abandon the tent altogether though..
And didnt leave any traces whatsoever ! ?
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He was politely correcting me.. Its called manners..
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Most likely outcome, in my mind, is a slab hitting the tent (in accordance with the science in the Nature article). The group cutting into the slope unfortunately aided this. The entrance and the boots (which were kept to the left of the entrance) were covered with snow.
They escape the tent. It's terrifying and uncomfoetable. Now they're exposed to extreme wind and cold on the slope. It's dark and loud, some people have minor injuries.
They can't readily access their boots due to the snow covering one side of the tent and they determine that it is safer to leave to the forest for fire and shelter as opposed to trying to salvage the tent or dig out their supplies. For starters it's too cold and windy to stay up on the slope and secondly they are worried about another impact.
From there, they leave and the rest is history. Hypothermia and being in the woods in the middle of horrendous weather accounts for the rest.
I think the serious injuries seen in the Ravine 4 were either due to a fall or the Ravine collapsing on them. Either way, the Ravine was directly tied to the injuries.
By the time the tent was discovered the snow that hit the tent has mostly blown away, however clumps are still there and that side of the tent is still buckled.
To me this theory is the most likely.
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There was no snow event. Any snow event theory is a modern day construct.. A fabrication made from whole cloth. It never happened. Sorry but, this is true. No one at the Dyatlov Pass, at that time, ever mentions a snow event. Period. And they would know
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There was no snow event. Any snow event theory is a modern day construct.. A fabrication made from whole cloth. It never happened. Sorry but, this is true. No one at the Dyatlov Pass, at that time, ever mentions a snow event. Period. And they would know
The tent was collapsed with large clumps of solid snow on top of it. The exit was collapsed, as was the area where the shoes were. The long period of time between the group dying and the tent being found ment the larger parts of the slide had eventually blown away. It wasn't an enormous amount of snow and it wasn't a conventional avalanche.
Rescuers immediately tampered with the tent and the area around the tent. Their testimony as to how they found the tent contradicts itself. Every different testimony of the individuals who found the tent is dramatically different to the other. Because of this, I trust modern science and physics more than their obviously shakey recollections - these rescuers made serious mistakes and by the time they realised this case required an actual investigation it was too late and crucial evidence had been tampered with or disappeared.
It is absolutely a possibility, even the recent Russian official investigation found it to be the most likely outcome.
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There was snow on the tent because it snowed.. Zena and Rustem were buried 10 inched deep.. The tent collapsed due to the weight of that snow. Again, NO ONE, at the time.. standing at the scene, on Feb. 27 1959 saw evidence of a snow event..
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Thats why the snow on the tent is crumbly .. not smooth..
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I don't even think we know what snow on the tent originally looked like. The photos are after the tent has been partially dug out. In my opinion, the very fact that the tent had to be "found" means it was mostly under snow. Smooth snow blending in with the surrounding snow. Otherwise it would have been visible from very far (if visibility is good... the photos show it was good.)
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They had troubles finding the tent because Igor didnt file his 'flight plan'..
And the weight of the snow on the tent was downward.. the skis/poles are still in place.. An avalanche or slab slide would have momentum forward, knocking them over..
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It looks like most posters on the forum develop a "pattern" in the type of reply they leave..
I am afraid to realize that I am developing one too..
I agree... (avalanche would have moved everything sideways). But.... always but...We don't really know if Igor filed his route plans or not. After all the sports club approved the trek based on something. Maybe he filed everything diligently and they just had really bad record keeping and lost it, and then tried to blame him?
After all they lied to the parents that the group is ok and on the way home when in fact they didn't know anything about where the group was.... so I would take anything the sports club said with a grain.
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Yeah, me too.. But you are the ever polite Manti grin1
Yes, I agree, there are probably many lies told about this by the officials.. for many reasons.. Lord knows, our government does the same..
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And the weight of the snow on the tent was downward.. the skis/poles are still in place.. An avalanche or slab slide would have momentum forward, knocking them over..
Whether or not a slab hit their tent is not proven, but what is proven is that if it did, the maths works out. You can say you don't think it happened, but you can't say it isn't possible. There is a reason why every actual investigation that examines this comes to this conclusion as being most likely. You can't argue with science. What they did to that specific slope in that specific sight with that specific wind could have absolutely led to a snow event.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8
I don't agree with every single thing said in this article, but you can't disagree with their mathematics.
Again, NO ONE, at the time.. standing at the scene, on Feb. 27 1959 saw evidence of a snow event..
You mean the people who slashed into the tent, ripped the tent, stole food and supplies from the tent, and dragged the tent 700metres to a helicopter before it was ever actually investigated with proper methodology made a mistake? That can't be true!
Most of the case files from this "investigation" wouldn't even be admissible in court. Almost every single one of the testimonies directly contradicts the next. It is evidently clear to me that most of the searchers were completely out of their depth and weren't even sure what they were dealing with. Whether it be people contaminating the site, omitting details, spreading rumours, forgetting they were present at giant events (like the discovery of the supply cache)... you can't take what they say as gospel. The reason "no theory fits" in this case is because the searchers made several giant mistakes and they artificially turned this event into a mystery.
I think the snow that hit the tent was a relatively small amount. It was enough to do damage, but it wasn't enough to push the tent off its base and slide it dramatically and it didn't hit the poles. I think it landed slab bang on or around the exit, it terrified the group (who were already terrified due to extreme wind), they ripped and slashed their way out and by the time they did that it was all over. Those who didn't have their footwear within an arms reach didn't have time to get to it.
Moving down to the tree line was probably the correct call. The group were seriously chancing fate by camping on the slope. All that needed to occur was a violent wind change and they were toast.
By the time people discovered the tent almost a month later, it had either blown away into small debris or been covered with fresh snow. The people who found the tent didn't know what they were dealing with. When they discovered the money still inside the tent they all started celebrating because that must have been proof the group were still alright. In short, they were never even looking for the very subtle evidence this slab would have left behind. I can't blame them. It was the 1950s and they didn't know what they were in for.
Had this event been investigated by modern, well trained alpine police and rescuers the thing would have been solved in a few days.
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What could have happened isnt science, dear. What could have happened was that a meteor fell from the sky and landed on them.... I mean, meteors strike the earth 100 times day.. Far more likely that a meteor struck them than a slab slide. There is no evidence of a snow event.
Also, the Mansi have been living in the mountains for tens of thousands of years.. If there was any snow event, they would know.. Hardly bumbling researchers..
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You can't argue with science.
...you can't disagree with their mathematics.
Well, you can, by its very nature science constantly evolves and you can and should argue it... otherwise we would still believe the earth is a flat disk with the Sun orbiting around it...
What that article does, is show that if a slab release did occur, it would have enough force to cause the observed injuries.
You can even argue with that as it greatly depends on snow density, moisture content, etc. And of course it assumed ideal conditions for a slab to form in the first place (an even layer of hoar forming below a denser upper layer. Does this happen on Kholat Syakhl? These scientists didn't collect any data on this).
But this is almost irrelevant to the case. If the a slab has enough force to fracture ribcages and skulls, would it not be also strong enough to break skis under the tent, break ski poles, crush the stove, etc?
You mean the people who slashed into the tent, ripped the tent, stole food and supplies from the tent,
They stole food from the tent? What did they steal and how do you know this?
Most of the case files from this "investigation" wouldn't even be admissible in court.
Which court? The courts of a different country that uses a different legal system, not to mention 60 years later? Or course they wouldn't be admissible.
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Found this article interesting and there's a photo of the tent I've not seen before. sorry, if you've already seen it, but thought I'd share it for anyone like me who hadn't. The tent appears to have a lot of small holes.
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26603.4/3618460/
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Most likely outcome, in my mind, is a slab hitting the tent (in accordance with the science in the Nature article). The group cutting into the slope unfortunately aided this. The entrance and the boots (which were kept to the left of the entrance) were covered with snow.
They escape the tent. It's terrifying and uncomfoetable. Now they're exposed to extreme wind and cold on the slope. It's dark and loud, some people have minor injuries.
They can't readily access their boots due to the snow covering one side of the tent and they determine that it is safer to leave to the forest for fire and shelter as opposed to trying to salvage the tent or dig out their supplies. For starters it's too cold and windy to stay up on the slope and secondly they are worried about another impact.
From there, they leave and the rest is history. Hypothermia and being in the woods in the middle of horrendous weather accounts for the rest.
I think the serious injuries seen in the Ravine 4 were either due to a fall or the Ravine collapsing on them. Either way, the Ravine was directly tied to the injuries.
By the time the tent was discovered the snow that hit the tent has mostly blown away, however clumps are still there and that side of the tent is still buckled.
To me this theory is the most likely.
Its one of the most unlikely Theories.
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Found this article interesting and there's a photo of the tent I've not seen before. sorry, if you've already seen it, but thought I'd share it for anyone like me who hadn't. The tent appears to have a lot of small holes.
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26603.4/3618460/ (https://www.kp.ru/daily/26603.4/3618460/)
I have the feeling that photo is one of those that was also used in the montage to create the one that is on this site.
It seems to match the left part of this composite photo
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg)
I cannot tell if there are multiple small holes or it's just dirt or crinkles on the fabric. Although on the right side it's more clear that there are several small cuts.
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Yes looks like it, Well spotted.
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So why did Rustem, Nick and Alex all have socks/gloves in their pockets and not put them on..
Because they were ordered to keep their hands over their heads??
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Rustem had one sock in his pocket but 4 on his feet. Many explanations... He may have felt he did not need to wear it, didn't know he had it (was already in his jacket pocket before the incident and he didnt know.... or he grabbed it and forgot).. hypothermia makes you stupid I have had before. I think most likely is he did not feel he needed one extra sock and then forgot about it due to other concerns. One extra sock would not have save him...
Nikolay was well dressed and did not die of cold. His gloves maybe where in his pocket so he could perform a task using dexterity, or he didn't feel he needed to wear them.
Aleksandr I see no evidence he had extra clothing in his pockets. I am reading the original autopsy in Russian maybe I miss it but i see nothing? He did have a jacket unbuttoned, not unusual for hypothermia. He may have felt hot when he died. Many different variables.
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About extra sockets, maybe the third pair didn't fit his feet once the first 2 were on ? grin1 When you're cold you don't want to compress your feet, it's even worst than having nothing.
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About extra sockets, maybe the third pair didn't fit his feet once the first 2 were on ? grin1 When you're cold you don't want to compress your feet, it's even worst than having nothing.
Yes but they could have put them on their hands..
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Rustem had one sock in his pocket but 4 on his feet. Many explanations... He may have felt he did not need to wear it, didn't know he had it (was already in his jacket pocket before the incident and he didnt know.... or he grabbed it and forgot).. hypothermia makes you stupid I have had before. I think most likely is he did not feel he needed one extra sock and then forgot about it due to other concerns. One extra sock would not have save him...
Nikolay was well dressed and did not die of cold. His gloves maybe where in his pocket so he could perform a task using dexterity, or he didn't feel he needed to wear them.
Aleksandr I see no evidence he had extra clothing in his pockets. I am reading the original autopsy in Russian maybe I miss it but i see nothing? He did have a jacket unbuttoned, not unusual for hypothermia. He may have felt hot when he died. Many different variables.
But, at some point, Rustem would have found it in his pocket..
Nick.. I dont think there could be any realistic explanation to not put his gloves on.. I think it means he died very early on..
Alex. You could be right.. I read off site and there is a lot of mis-info out there..
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Rustem had one sock in his pocket but 4 on his feet. Many explanations... He may have felt he did not need to wear it, didn't know he had it (was already in his jacket pocket before the incident and he didnt know.... or he grabbed it and forgot).. hypothermia makes you stupid I have had before. I think most likely is he did not feel he needed one extra sock and then forgot about it due to other concerns. One extra sock would not have save him...
Nikolay was well dressed and did not die of cold. His gloves maybe where in his pocket so he could perform a task using dexterity, or he didn't feel he needed to wear them.
Aleksandr I see no evidence he had extra clothing in his pockets. I am reading the original autopsy in Russian maybe I miss it but i see nothing? He did have a jacket unbuttoned, not unusual for hypothermia. He may have felt hot when he died. Many different variables.
When hiking in freezing conditions, it is common to put your wet gloves and socks and such inside the layers of your clothing to dry out without them freezing. Then they are wearable again the next day. They probably did not put them on that night because wet socks and gloves/mittens would have resulted in a quicker onset of frostbite.
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But, at some point, Rustem would have found it in his pocket..
I have already explained that he may have not even needed the sock. He was already wear four. The extra may not fit or compress too much. It may have been wet. He may not know he had a sock.
This is pointless anyway because one extra wet sock would not have made a difference! Rustik was well dress.
Nick.. I dont think there could be any realistic explanation to not put his gloves on..
Them being wet due to building the den may be a reason. Soaked thru gloves are not helpful.
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About the tent cut, we all assume they were made from inside.
I do believe ewpert when they say the knife was inside the tent.
But have you ever tried to cut a loose, thick fabrique ? Especially if you don't want to touch something inside ? You wont just pock the knife through, it's too loose to work well and you risk to make damage on the other side.
They might have use their knife from outside, but cutting inside-out direction, handing the knife that way :
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvTE6OAfF3mVOklwGQcfN6_VCKzevmNgqSkw&usqp=CAU)
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About the tent cut, we all assume they were made from inside.
I do believe ewpert when they say the knife was inside the tent.
But have you ever tried to cut a loose, thick fabrique ? Especially if you don't want to touch something inside ? You wont just pock the knife through, it's too loose to work well and you risk to make damage on the other side.
They might have use their knife from outside, but cutting inside-out direction, handing the knife that way :
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvTE6OAfF3mVOklwGQcfN6_VCKzevmNgqSkw&usqp=CAU)
this is exactly what I think. The rescue workers cut the tent open, what else could they have done, if they wanted to see inside, and were worried abaout their frineds? Of course one would take a knife or ice ax and cut it open to see what's inside, they said they did this. So the cuts they made LOOK a if they were made from inside because of the way they hold the knife. That's the only way to do it. You can't just cut a tent that is on the ground, but you have to put the knife first in and then lift the material up a bit so that the fabric comes off the ground , and then tear it pulling the knife toward yourself. Of course it looks like it was made inside.
So, what does this mean? Nothing much. But we can forget the theory of panic escape or smoke from stove. The tent probably was collapsed. But it still doesn't explain why they left without warm clothes to sure death.One does that only if a gun is put against their head, or if you are out of your mind, intoxicated, in delirium, etc.