Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sunny on March 26, 2021, 10:23:41 AM
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So one (drunk?) Mansi confessed to a man that they killed the hikers yeras ago. This story is on these pages to be found. Why do we not believe him? Why are we even discussing any other theories? No other theory answers every guestion, like the Mansi theory.
The Mansi even boasted about it. Hikers had gone and messed before the Mansi's holy place, where mansis had hidden their gold and furs, that were expensive to them. They probebly thought mistakenly thet the hikers had stolen them. Also they may have feared the hikers were about to go to their holy mountain and cause trouble and bad hunting luck to them. It doesn't even mean that the mountain they had put the tent was that holy mountain, but that mansis may have feared they were going to there later.
The hikers had one photo taken from the mansi holy hiding place. They had gone to look it closer. Big mistake.
The mansi said that their hunters hunted the hikers and gave them to their holy men who killed them.He said that they dropped a dope in to their tent.
Well, I believe the story may have been exaggerated a little bit like usually happens. I think the mansi hunters found the hikers, dropped the dope (that had some nerveagent) in to the tent, that forced the hikers out quickly, by cutting the tent. Then they were surrended by mansi hunters who forced them to leave the area immediately. They may have stayed by the tent to guard that the hikers aren't coming back. Then when they were killed by cold, they left, and made their ski marks disappear with branches etc. It is not difficult to do.
This theory is the best, we have confession, it explaines everything. Russian officials said mansis couldn't keep a secret, but I think they got really scared when russian officials made a big deal about it, and decided to shut up about it. Until one drunk man decided to boast about it.
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The evidence is entirely incosistent with homicide and drunk people are known to try and make themselves seem "bad" in front of friends at the local dive bars, but you can believe whatever you like, of course.
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So one (drunk?) Mansi confessed to a man that they killed the hikers yeras ago. This story is on these pages to be found. Why do we not believe him? Why are we even discussing any other theories? No other theory answers every guestion, like the Mansi theory.
The Mansi even boasted about it. Hikers had gone and messed before the Mansi's holy place, where mansis had hidden their gold and furs, that were expensive to them. They probebly thought mistakenly thet the hikers had stolen them. Also they may have feared the hikers were about to go to their holy mountain and cause trouble and bad hunting luck to them. It doesn't even mean that the mountain they had put the tent was that holy mountain, but that mansis may have feared they were going to there later.
The hikers had one photo taken from the mansi holy hiding place. They had gone to look it closer. Big mistake.
The mansi said that their hunters hunted the hikers and gave them to their holy men who killed them.He said that they dropped a dope in to their tent.
Well, I believe the story may have been exaggerated a little bit like usually happens. I think the mansi hunters found the hikers, dropped the dope (that had some nerveagent) in to the tent, that forced the hikers out quickly, by cutting the tent. Then they were surrended by mansi hunters who forced them to leave the area immediately. They may have stayed by the tent to guard that the hikers aren't coming back. Then when they were killed by cold, they left, and made their ski marks disappear with branches etc. It is not difficult to do.
This theory is the best, we have confession, it explaines everything. Russian officials said mansis couldn't keep a secret, but I think they got really scared when russian officials made a big deal about it, and decided to shut up about it. Until one drunk man decided to boast about it.
I dont have theory yet but this is the most rational explanation. The Mansi are the only know people on the mountain that night with enough manpower to overrun 9 Russia athletes. And there was Mansi items found at the scene..
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I think I remember reading somewhere that the Mansi had particular ways/rituals their holy men would follow if they did this. If so, would it fit with the injuries they had? No doubt someone has more knowledge on this. I have wondered if they maybe knew more about what happened, but felt they had to keep quiet.
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So one (drunk?) Mansi confessed to a man that they killed the hikers yeras ago. This story is on these pages to be found. Why do we not believe him? Why are we even discussing any other theories? No other theory answers every guestion, like the Mansi theory.
The Mansi even boasted about it. Hikers had gone and messed before the Mansi's holy place, where mansis had hidden their gold and furs, that were expensive to them. They probebly thought mistakenly thet the hikers had stolen them. Also they may have feared the hikers were about to go to their holy mountain and cause trouble and bad hunting luck to them. It doesn't even mean that the mountain they had put the tent was that holy mountain, but that mansis may have feared they were going to there later.
The hikers had one photo taken from the mansi holy hiding place. They had gone to look it closer. Big mistake.
The mansi said that their hunters hunted the hikers and gave them to their holy men who killed them.He said that they dropped a dope in to their tent.
Well, I believe the story may have been exaggerated a little bit like usually happens. I think the mansi hunters found the hikers, dropped the dope (that had some nerveagent) in to the tent, that forced the hikers out quickly, by cutting the tent. Then they were surrended by mansi hunters who forced them to leave the area immediately. They may have stayed by the tent to guard that the hikers aren't coming back. Then when they were killed by cold, they left, and made their ski marks disappear with branches etc. It is not difficult to do.
This theory is the best, we have confession, it explaines everything. Russian officials said mansis couldn't keep a secret, but I think they got really scared when russian officials made a big deal about it, and decided to shut up about it. Until one drunk man decided to boast about it.
The Mansi were interrogated by the KGB. The Mansi appear to be a peace loving people who are proud of their history and legends. One of those legends is of the Menk. The Mansi claim that many of their people have disappeared in the forests.
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There were 8,000 Mansi.. They cant account for all of them.. And some Mansi items were found at the scene..
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There were 8,000 Mansi.. They cant account for all of them.. And some Mansi items were found at the scene..
Do you think the Mansi are responsible?
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Possibly. They were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes..
I havent ruled out the government yet tho.. Or Alex and Simon up to something nefarious..
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Possibly. They were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes..
I havent ruled out the government yet tho.. Or Alex and Simon up to something nefarious..
Excellent, nefarious is a new word for me.
Yeah, I have problems with other people being involved due to the remoteness , logistics and the possibility that it would backfire on the attackers. The weather and environment would make it difficult and they would need some string motivation. Can't be ruled out though but it's down my list.
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The Mansi and other tribes lived up there.. and the government would surely be able to dress appropriately. The ringer here is the Russian nuclear scientists too.. Cant ignore that ! LOL
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Whats your theory?
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Whats your theory?
These incidents are not uncommon. One guy wrote a series of books on the subject ("Missing 411," though "Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite" was better). Have you read about the Chivrauy incident (about a dozen years later)? To me that is an example of even worse decision-making in a similar situation. The Dyatlov tent began to collapse (probably due to ice/heavy snow buildup), or they though it would collapse, so they cut themselves out, secured the tent so it wouldn't blow away (along with all their stuff), and calmly walked down to the tree line, thinking they could survive with a fire (the fire in fact was said to be quite robust, lasting an hour or two). One interesting question is if the idea of digging the "den" was the original plan or some sort of secondary one (the two guys who were dressed fairly well could have dug the den while the others started and got warmed up by the fire). The problem is that when you do a lot of work in the cold (with minimal clothing), then stop to warm up, you're going to do a lot of sweating, and then if your heat source can't be maintained or isn't sufficient, you are in deep trouble!
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The Mansi and other tribes lived up there.. and the government would surely be able to dress appropriately. The ringer here is the Russian nuclear scientists too.. Cant ignore that ! LOL
The Mansi lived 80-100 km away. They had settlements at Suevet Paul and the Bahtiyarovs had a settlement on the North Toshemka river. They hunted along the Ural ridges and herded reindeer there. While they were in the region, it is still a sizeable region. Saltydog has a theory that the Bahtiyarovs are guilty of killing the Dyatlov group, based on their hunting schedules from February. His is, in my opinion, the most credible of the Mansi theories. The Mansi were cleared of any involvement early on in the investigation. It was not of their nature, they did not have a holy site near the pass where the tent was found and they had no issues with Russians being around their areas. However, one of the Anyamovs referred to a group of "Ostyaks," near the North Toshemka, which some believe was a reference to the Bahtiyarovs (Ostyak is another name for Khanty, the other indigenous group in the region.) Khantys had a bit less live for the Russians, after a failed rebellion twenty years before. I'd say if the Dyatlov group were killed by other people, the Bahtiyarovs would be my prevailing suspects. However, we also need to remember there was no other evidence that put any other humans near the pass. No footprints of others, no sled tracks, or wide skis (the Dyatlov group had thinner skis whereas the Mansi used a wider ski.). The only article that could have belonged to a Mansi was a woven belt/garter item that was also used by soldiers and could have been Zolotaryov's and a previously built chum about a mile from the site. Although, if the snow den was already dug before the Dyatlov group got there, it could very well have been dug and used by the Mansi when hunting there at another point in time and the Dyatlovites then used it for shelter on the night they died, putting down clothes and fresh branch after leaving the tent.
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The Dyatlov tent began to collapse (probably due to ice/heavy snow buildup), or they though it would collapse, so they cut themselves out
This makes no sense. The tent had an entrance, nobody would cut themselves out, takes longer and ruins the tent..
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Its racist to say that the Mansi or any native type people arent capable of murder... anger or mental illness. People always over romanticize them.. as if they are Gods chosen people and are pure love.. BS.
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I am reading about their mythology here: https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/khanty-and-mansi-religion (https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/khanty-and-mansi-religion)
There is a mythical creature called the "Lozva Water Spirit". The Dyatlov group were found in the upper sources of the Lozva river... so much for it not being a sacred place...
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Yep.. and thats only one possible motivation..
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two things about this:
1. false confessions are a very real issue in investigations and why the police usually keep one key piece of evidence hidden from the public so they can weed out fake confessions. People say they did it because they are mentally ill and think they did, want the publicity, want to waste police time, the reasons are endless. So unless something is revealed in a "confession" that wasn't publically known and is confirmed as a detail, anyone can say anything. doesn't mean anything. could be true, could be a lie
2. I have been looking into the Mansi religion and it isn't a punitive religion like the ones we are most familiar with. I can't find anything to indicate they felt they had to kill the hikers. If anything, being in a sacred place would damage the soul? after death so they didn't have to.
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But you are only addressing one reason to attack them.. something sacred.. Could have many other things..
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I heard they are alcoholics.. maybe a drunken rage??? There are other possibilities..
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I heard they are alcoholics.. maybe a drunken rage??? There are other possibilities..
And saying they aren't violent by nature is racist, lol?!
If we go back and read the statements by the Russians who knew the Mansi families that were around the area, (taking off our blinders regarding what *we* think,) the overarching belief by those who worked with them and knew them was that they weren't the types to kill Russians. Much of their violence was more insular (statistically.) The people who knew them also stated outright that they had no sacred places near Dyatlov Pass and that they didn't practice their religion at that time.
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that's because I can't see a group of Mansi, drunk enough to risk bringing down the Soviet government's wrath on them, skiing out of a warm place to miles away to kill a group. If this was in town? or close to their camp? maybe? but being that drunk the odds are they would pass out and die on the way to kill the group. Plus a group of drunks would leave a lot of evidence they were there, drunks do that and would take valuable items.
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that's because I can't see a group of Mansi, drunk enough to risk bringing down the Soviet government's wrath on them, skiing out of a warm place to miles away to kill a group. If this was in town? or close to their camp? maybe? but being that drunk the odds are they would pass out and die on the way to kill the group. Plus a group of drunks would leave a lot of evidence they were there, drunks do that and would take valuable items.
This. All of this.
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The fact remains that they were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes. They can never be eliminated.
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And saying they aren't violent by nature is racist, lol?! thumb1
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Yes.. its one of those "those people" statements..
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In your mind, obviously yes.
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It also implies that it must have been White people..also racist.
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The fact remains that they were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes. They can never be eliminated.
Prove they were on the mountain that night.
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Yes.. its one of those "those people" statements..
It is a study in statistics. Look at the statistics of the time; the Mansi were much less likely to be involved in violence against Russian peoples than they were to be involved in insular violence. It is not a racist statement, it is statistical trend. One of my grad degrees is in the field of criminology (a study of crime trends.) This is what I do; i look at crime trends. I am speaking of statistics, not bias.
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There was a guy that was a God fearing church goer.. Volunteered at the church.. Family man.. wife and children.. good job..
He was also the serial killer.. BTK.
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I heard they are alcoholics.. maybe a drunken rage??? There are other possibilities..
Its a bit of generalised statement Dona. I'm sure you didn't mean it as it sounds.
There are only humans. We are all the same.
Plus said alcoholics left alcohol in the tent .
By your logic we can conclude that if the Mansi did the murder they are not alcoholics as they did not take the alcohol ....or.....if they are alcoholics they did not commit the murder, otherwise they would have taken the alcohol from the tent and skied back to their yurt, all be it ,not in a straight line....
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I heard they are alcoholics.. maybe a drunken rage??? There are other possibilities..
Its a bit of generalised statement Dona. I'm sure you didn't mean it as it sounds.
There are only humans. We are all the same.
Plus said alcoholics left alcohol in the tent .
By your logic we can conclude that if the Mansi did the murder they are not alcoholics as they did not take the alcohol ....or.....if they are alcoholics they did not commit the murder, otherwise they would have taken the alcohol from the tent and skied back to their yurt, all be it ,not in a straight line....
Not sure what you mean..I didnt mean it..
Yes, we are all the same.. Thats my point..
You could also ask why they didnt steal anything..
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If you accuse or eliminate a person of a crime based on their race.. You are a racist.. Hello! Whaaaaaaat?
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If you accuse or eliminate a person of a crime based on their race.. You are a racist.. Hello! Whaaaaaaat?
*sigh* You have completely missed the point, intentionally or not, and seem unwilling to find i. I don't think there is an any response at this point that is going to add productivity to the discussion. Nice to have met you.
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No, I dont think I am missing anything here.. What I do know is that there 2 pieces of evidence found at the scene, both connected to Mansi. The strap and the military leg warmer.. An investigator stated that when he went to talk to them, he noticed many of the Mansi were wearing the leg warmers.. They are, no doubt, found all over the mountain.. they travel the mountain and would find them in their travels.. Thats 2 pieces of evidence..at the scene.. and you eliminate them.. unfairly.
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Yes.. its one of those "those people" statements..
It is a study in statistics. Look at the statistics of the time; the Mansi were much less likely to be involved in violence against Russian peoples than they were to be involved in insular violence. It is not a racist statement, it is statistical trend. One of my grad degrees is in the field of criminology (a study of crime trends.) This is what I do; i look at crime trends. I am speaking of statistics, not bias.
Not to mention that the government is hardly going to cover up a murder of 9 people, who made a point (real or not) of announcing their trip was in celebration of the government, by a minority tribe. They would go in and wipe them out and the Mansi knew it.
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Or... the government is covering for them as they dont know which of them did it and they would know of the wrath that would fall upon them by the Russian people if they found out they did it..
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Or maybe the Mansi handled it internally and they government accepted that..
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Its racist to say that the Mansi or any native type people arent capable of murder... anger or mental illness. People always over romanticize them.. as if they are Gods chosen people and are pure love.. BS.
What are you talking about ! ?
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The fact remains that they were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes. They can never be eliminated.
How do you know that the Mansi were on the Mountain at the same time as the Dyatlov Group ! ?
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There was a guy that was a God fearing church goer.. Volunteered at the church.. Family man.. wife and children.. good job..
He was also the serial killer.. BTK.
You are talking rubbish.
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The fact remains that they were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes. They can never be eliminated.
How do you know that the Mansi were on the Mountain at the same time as the Dyatlov Group ! ?
They were investigated.. they would not have done that if they werent..
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There was a guy that was a God fearing church goer.. Volunteered at the church.. Family man.. wife and children.. good job..
He was also the serial killer.. BTK.
You are talking rubbish.
The point was you cant always go by statistics... Sometimes a mold wont fit..ie. BTK.. Ted Bundy the family man and Law Student..
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The fact remains that they were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes. They can never be eliminated.
How do you know that the Mansi were on the Mountain at the same time as the Dyatlov Group ! ?
They were investigated.. they would not have done that if they werent..
The Mansi were Investigated because they are the nearest Tribe to the area where the Dyatlov Group met their demise. Not because they were on the Mountain.
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There was a guy that was a God fearing church goer.. Volunteered at the church.. Family man.. wife and children.. good job..
He was also the serial killer.. BTK.
You are talking rubbish.
The point was you cant always go by statistics... Sometimes a mold wont fit..ie. BTK.. Ted Bundy the family man and Law Student..
Every Case is different. And the Dyatlov Case is one of the most extraordinary so we need to be extra careful in our analysis.
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There was a guy that was a God fearing church goer.. Volunteered at the church.. Family man.. wife and children.. good job..
He was also the serial killer.. BTK.
You are talking rubbish.
The point was you cant always go by statistics... Sometimes a mold wont fit..ie. BTK.. Ted Bundy the family man and Law Student..
Every Case is different. And the Dyatlov Case is one of the most extraordinary so we need to be extra careful in our analysis.
Yes, and look at ALL options..
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Ok, I hear what you say but are you aware of the Stalin and Khrushchev purges to stop bear rites and mansi practises. The mansi were selected for ostracism but it just dove their rites and ceremonies underground, so as to speak.
There has been comments re the Holy mountains of the mansi and they answered the questions truthfully the way they were put to them in interrogation. Ortorten and 1079 are not holy mountains. Yet they were not asked if there were other holy mountains close by such as Hoi Eckwa yet this is conveniently left out and forgotten and all Bahtiyarov and russian statements only address the issue of the holy mountain in the Upper Vizhay river!
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Possibly. They were the only known people on the mountain that night that could overrun 9 Russian athletes..
I havent ruled out the government yet tho.. Or Alex and Simon up to something nefarious..
What do you mean by “they were on the mountain that night”?
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There was a guy that was a God fearing church goer.. Volunteered at the church.. Family man.. wife and children.. good job..
He was also the serial killer.. BTK.
You are talking rubbish.
The point was you cant always go by statistics... Sometimes a mold wont fit..ie. BTK.. Ted Bundy the family man and Law Student..
Every Case is different. And the Dyatlov Case is one of the most extraordinary so we need to be extra careful in our analysis.
Yes, and look at ALL options..
Well I think that there are plenty of options to look at in this Forum.