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Author Topic: The Missing Photographs  (Read 1799 times)

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July 19, 2020, 05:58:26 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
There is already a Topic on the Cameras, and also certain Photos, but what about the Missing Photographs.  While walking in a small Forest near where I live, on Saturday, I started thinking about the last Photos that any of the Dyatlov Group took.  We dont know exactly the time scale from leaving the Tent till all of their deaths.  But by all accounts it could have been longer than an hour.  You can do a lot in an hour.  You can compose yourself and take plenty of Photographs.  They may well have taken more Photos.  But for some reason those Photos went Missing.  Now of course we are told that some film was found but that it was water damaged.  But film can be submerged in water for a long time and survive especially in lower temperatures.  What happened to that film  ?  !
DB
 

July 22, 2020, 02:02:04 PM
Reply #1
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beak


I agree about the film. I used to develop 35mm films myself in the 90's and know a little bit about them. The same as Zol's book which had nothing at all written in it (allegedly). Clean up operation. This is why LD's tongue is so interesting because you have to ask who did that and why? (assuming the mass in the stomach is correct.) Who would have the will and the time to do something as appalling as that? Extreme anger or punishment (or just plain psychotic behavior) can be the only answer for that. Maybe when facing certain death she was becoming even more outspoken than usual(?). It's the only clue that a clean up is unlikely to have tampered with. Unless one of the people she encountered (argued with) along the way said "bring me her tongue". Maybe the rest of the group were just collateral damage. This would also explain why they pitched the tent to provide a vantage point AWAY from the tree line. She clearly wasn't happy about something. It seems they also didn't light a fire that night (would have given away their position). Whatever the case - they clearly were not preparing for the following day in a nominal fashion. I also haven't read much about the Blinov group who I would have thought were of great interest in all of this.
 

July 22, 2020, 03:05:58 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I agree about the film. I used to develop 35mm films myself in the 90's and know a little bit about them. The same as Zol's book which had nothing at all written in it (allegedly). Clean up operation. This is why LD's tongue is so interesting because you have to ask who did that and why? (assuming the mass in the stomach is correct.) Who would have the will and the time to do something as appalling as that? Extreme anger or punishment (or just plain psychotic behavior) can be the only answer for that. Maybe when facing certain death she was becoming even more outspoken than usual(?). It's the only clue that a clean up is unlikely to have tampered with. Unless one of the people she encountered (argued with) along the way said "bring me her tongue". Maybe the rest of the group were just collateral damage. This would also explain why they pitched the tent to provide a vantage point AWAY from the tree line. She clearly wasn't happy about something. It seems they also didn't light a fire that night (would have given away their position). Whatever the case - they clearly were not preparing for the following day in a nominal fashion. I also haven't read much about the Blinov group who I would have thought were of great interest in all of this.

Thats an interesting point you raise about NOMINAL.  Position of Tent.   2 of the Group on guard preparing for the night.  Cameras to hand but what happened was so dramatic and clearly scary that they all fled the Tent ASAP. Maybe they did get to take photos on the way down to the Treeline  !  ?
DB
 

July 22, 2020, 03:45:53 PM
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beak


You also have the issue that Bienko Slavik was replaced by Zol at the last minute. This upset the girls. If the facts are correct then "Zol" was dug up 2-3 times for DNA testing over the years and there was no match to is cousins. "Zol" was described as someone who popped up here and there then moved on in 24 hours. What kind of person has the will and funds etc to accomplish that?(james bond?) The camera may have been placed around the neck of "a body" in the ravine to make it seem as though it was "Zol". If so : who WAS that person with the camera in the ravine? And where did the real "Zol" go? If he was fully clothed (he was on guard) then it would be easy for him (with his experience) to pick them off then wait for the conditions to weaken them and finish them. But why? Or was he just a psychopath? If his body wasn't the one in the ravine there where did he go next? What else did he do over the following decades? Why did Dyatlov not share his route plans with the others? That is  irregular because if something happens to him then the others need to know where they going or how to get back. Same as the golden rule that you ALWAYS carry your own kit (incase the person carrying yours falls off a mountain). The whole thing is weird - from the very start and ALL of the way through from day 1.

Or - more chilling - all of this is what he meant when he said "the whole world will know about this". A psychopath  -  and all of this was his intended outcome.(Psychopaths can be quite charming when they need to be though.) And he got to stick around and watch the world agonise over what might have happened.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 04:09:45 PM by beak »
 

July 22, 2020, 06:24:10 PM
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hoosiergose


@Beak
You have shared a very interesting & thought provoking concept-
I have always thought that Semyon (aka Sasha) was the odd man out and perhaps his presence is key to solving this mystery. I still say that this event has homicide written all over it.
IMHO - this was a cold calculated killing.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 06:32:53 PM by hoosiergose »
 

July 23, 2020, 03:23:48 AM
Reply #5
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beak


"semyon" , "alexander" or "sasha". There's a tonne of stuff here >> http://russiantours.online/semen-zolotarev about him and all of the preparations for the Dyatlov trip but I haven't had time to read it all yet. I will read it all though because I've been curious about the composition of the group since first hearing about this whole thing.
 

July 23, 2020, 03:36:24 AM
Reply #6
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Nigel Evans


I agree about the film. I used to develop 35mm films myself in the 90's and know a little bit about them. The same as Zol's book which had nothing at all written in it (allegedly). Clean up operation. This is why LD's tongue is so interesting because you have to ask who did that and why? (assuming the mass in the stomach is correct.) There's no proof that she had blood in her stomach. The autopsy didn't say that. Who would have the will and the time to do something as appalling as that? Extreme anger or punishment (or just plain psychotic behavior) can be the only answer for that. Maybe when facing certain death she was becoming even more outspoken than usual(?). It's the only clue that a clean up is unlikely to have tampered with. Unless one of the people she encountered (argued with) along the way said "bring me her tongue". Maybe the rest of the group were just collateral damage. This would also explain why they pitched the tent to provide a vantage point AWAY from the tree line. She clearly wasn't happy about something. It seems they also didn't light a fire that night (would have given away their position). Whatever the case - they clearly were not preparing for the following day in a nominal fashion. I also haven't read much about the Blinov group who I would have thought were of great interest in all of this.
 

July 23, 2020, 03:41:23 AM
Reply #7
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Nigel Evans


You also have the issue that Bienko Slavik was replaced by Zol at the last minute. This upset the girls. If the facts are correct then "Zol" was dug up 2-3 times for DNA testing over the years and there was no match to is cousins. Not so - https://dyatlovpass.com/zolotaryov-exhumation-3 "Zol" was described as someone who popped up here and there then moved on in 24 hours. What kind of person has the will and funds etc to accomplish that?(james bond?) The camera may have been placed around the neck of "a body" in the ravine to make it seem as though it was "Zol". If so : who WAS that person with the camera in the ravine? And where did the real "Zol" go? If he was fully clothed (he was on guard) then it would be easy for him (with his experience) to pick them off then wait for the conditions to weaken them and finish them. But why? Or was he just a psychopath? If his body wasn't the one in the ravine there where did he go next? What else did he do over the following decades? Why did Dyatlov not share his route plans with the others? That is  irregular because if something happens to him then the others need to know where they going or how to get back. Same as the golden rule that you ALWAYS carry your own kit (incase the person carrying yours falls off a mountain). The whole thing is weird - from the very start and ALL of the way through from day 1.

Or - more chilling - all of this is what he meant when he said "the whole world will know about this". A psychopath  -  and all of this was his intended outcome.(Psychopaths can be quite charming when they need to be though.) And he got to stick around and watch the world agonise over what might have happened.
 

July 23, 2020, 05:00:38 AM
Reply #8
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beak


OK - thanks. I hadn't read that yet. I'll need to get someone else to read it for me because I don't know much about DNA matching etc.
 

July 23, 2020, 09:50:24 AM
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MDGross


Or he might have been just a regular guy. At the time he joined the Dyatlov expedition, Zolotaryov worked as a tour guide in the area. He needed one difficult, winter hike to attain the highest certification for a skier/hiker. He could then become a full-time expedition leader, which would pay more. He was not a student at the university like all the others, so it isn't odd that no one had met him. He very well could have been a valuable addition, since he was a skilled and experienced skier/hiker.
 

July 23, 2020, 10:55:36 AM
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RidgeWatcher


Or he might have well been a plant. I have always had my suspicions about Semyon. Don't forget the name change.

Zolotaryov made Lyuda uneasy: she suspected that he felt used to being in charge, and wondered if that might be a problem. The fact that the group now included one leader aged 23 and one aged 37 could cause some tension.

 On the day of their departure January 23, she wrote in her diary: "At first, no one wanted him in the group because he’s complete stranger, but then we got over it and he’s coming. We couldn’t just refuse to take him."

Everyone knew that the inclusion of this stranger in the group had been orchestrated by the local Communist Party Committee. Fellow student Valentin Bogomolov recalls how eager Zolotaryov was to finish the trek as soon as possible, giving the impression he was in a big hurry to perform some other duty afterwards.


If everyone knew, then I would like to know what else they knew, what else were they not able to write about in their journals, knowing they would have to be turned in for credit. Personally I find it somewhat strange that in all the hikers, on all the tours, in all the places, with a limited population in the Ural region why hadn't any of the Dyatlov or even the Blinov hikers come across Semyon, previously?

Did Semyon have a rendezvous with a member in the Blinov group?
 

July 23, 2020, 02:44:07 PM
Reply #11
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
"semyon" , "alexander" or "sasha". There's a tonne of stuff here >> http://russiantours.online/semen-zolotarev about him and all of the preparations for the Dyatlov trip but I haven't had time to read it all yet. I will read it all though because I've been curious about the composition of the group since first hearing about this whole thing.

Well now that you have brought it up, Iam going to have another look at what is known about the individual Members of the Dyatlov Group. Starting with, SEMYON ALEKSANDROVICH ZOLOTARYOV (SASHA), the oldest of the Group.
DB
 

July 23, 2020, 03:24:29 PM
Reply #12

eurocentric

Guest
@Beak
You have shared a very interesting & thought provoking concept-
I have always thought that Semyon (aka Sasha) was the odd man out and perhaps his presence is key to solving this mystery. I still say that this event has homicide written all over it.
IMHO - this was a cold calculated killing.


I only recently learned of this mystery, and it has obviously remained an enduring mystery because no single theory ticks every box. But I do recall the first thing I thought was this will be like The Ten Little Indians, or rather 9 because one dropped out. And my initial gut instinct was what was this older man doing with a younger group cramping their style, and also wondered if the one who dropped out returned to kill them.

When you read of this tragedy it's presented as though all the hikers were a tightly-knit group who knew each other well, all shown posing for smiling photo's, and this works towards making the reader imagine an outside force, natural or man, could be the only explanation for destroying this bond.

But then you read the diaries, and discover things like these:

Lyuda's diary 25/1/59 -  The mood after the movie greatly improved. Igor Dyatlov was unrecognizable. He tried to dance, and even started singing: "O Jackie Joe"

Zina's diary 28/1/59  - ...I mended the tent. We lay down to sleep. Igor was rude the whole evening, I just couldn't recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove.

'Unknown' diary 30/1/59 - Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. Nick Thibault changed his clothes. He began to write a diary. The law is that until all the work is done, do not approach the fire. And so they had a long argument, of who will sew the tent. Finally K. Tibo gave up and took a needle. Lyuda remained seated. And we sewed the hole (and there were so many that there was enough work for all except two attendants and Lyuda. Guys are terribly outraged.

Again on 30/1/59 - ...Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket. He cursed a lot.

And most portentous of all, earlier on 26th: Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell.

So a bit of an atmosphere, bickerings, mood swings until someone is unrecognisable, refusals to do work, not really operating as a team.

As regards Semyon, who coincidentally dies on his 38th birthday, and appears to be the only one carrying a camera at his death, he was one of two fully-clothed, which is taken to mean he was outside, and his empty bladder means he must've been urinating. But equally he may have been fully-clothed inside the tent because the stove was off, it was unpacked. 

What if the others were somehow made to remove their clothing in the unheated tent, to induce hypothermia. Possibly after an assault or two he cuts his way out because he couldn't get past the others and unbutton the flap, and since he won't be staying he doesn't care about the future use of the tent, and slashing it renders it uninhabitable overnight. However this theory is flawed because he would have taken their clothing to guarantee their deaths.

If this madman was then on the loose, possibly shouting threats, they wouldn't feel it worthwhile attempting to stitch the tent in the wind, dark and snow, it isn't a building they could barricade themselves in, and he'll probably arrive to damage it further, so they evacuate. You'd still anticipate they'd take basic clothing though, and the madman should still have the knife used to cut the tent with which to stab people, so I'm not buying into this entirely, just speculating through a whodunnit theory.

It's assumed they all 'calmly' walk down to the cedars together, from 9 sets of prints, but equally the killer among them could have followed their trail, adding his footprints, and one set is said to meander and return to the line.

At the cedars they would look for firewood, and this would allow individual attacks, until they weakened and the fire started to die down, and as a result hypothermia killed two of them there.

Interesting too that at autopsy Igor Dyatlov's bladder was fit-to-burst with a litre of urine, not something normally associated with hypothermia. I'd speculate he had a urinary/bladder problem, and if his bladder was overloaded then apart from sweating, his kidneys would struggle to continue excreting toxins out of his bloodstream and his blood pressure may rise, changing his behaviour. This doesn't automatically cast him as a killer, but it might explain his changing moods, as recorded.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 12:01:20 AM by eurocentric »
 

July 23, 2020, 05:12:24 PM
Reply #13
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beak


@eurocentric : I agree with loads of that. I feel I've some reading and re-reading to do about "Zol", his DNA stuff and the 100g "mass" in the stomach of LD.
I've been rightly corrected by a DPI Guru on here (rightly so because there's no room for getting what "facts" there actually are wrong). I'll be reading the lengthy stuff I've found elsewhere (http://russiantours.online/dyatlov-group-campaign)over the weekend (time permitting) since I'm also curious about the initial "makeup" of the group which that stuff apparently considers.

My initial feeling is that there is an uneasy mix of nuclear lab workers, an older and unfamiliar WW2 vet, a leader who won't share  the route details and a guy (Yuri) who pulls out as soon as the wilderness beckons, 2 uneasy girls and arguments with another (Blinov) group (LD). NOT a good start. Towards the end then I think several things may have acted on the outcome along with potential clean up activities and evidence tampering. No wonder it's confusing.

One of the problems with enigmas like this  is that "facts" that don't fit in with a persons "mental model" of something often get relegated or just discounted - but shouldn't be. This mental process/failure is exactly what led to the Kegworth air disaster (1989). "Cognitive bias" and "Cognitive dissonance".

The trouble with this is that there so few reliable/concrete facts to go on. This is why I prefer to start with "facts" that either couldn't or wouldn't be tampered with.

The only thing that I know for sure is that I would be very uneasy to proceed with this journey given what was evident from the diary entries before they even set out on foot/ski. Maybe this was Yuri's (RIP 2013) real problem. I've seen some youtubes of people trying to replicate their journey but that's utterly pointless because what needs to be replicated is the actual group members and their knowledge/thoughts/feelings/objectives and that simply isn't possible. Some of the youtubers just seek to make money out of it (which is VERY irritating in the extreme).
 

July 24, 2020, 01:39:27 AM
Reply #14
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sparrow


beak.

I agree with you totally. We need to start with the known facts and build on those.

euorcentric was right about there being some problems among various hikers.  I am therefore wondering if they also did not have some problems (arguments) on the night
they died.  It would explain some of the injuries and  maybe why they were not found together. We are all humans, including them, so it seems rational to maybe think that on that night, as the reality of their situation sunk in, there were some arguments.
 

July 25, 2020, 07:06:57 AM
Reply #15
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MDGross


Some time ago, I did imagine a scenario in which the CIA snuck Zolotaryov out of the Soviet Union and planted an impostor, who was a CiA operative carrying secret info. When the Dyatlov group reached the village on the other side of the pass, which was to be their turn-around point, the impostor would pass the info to another CIA operative. But the KGB got wind of the plan, and tracked the group down by helicopter. The flash of bright light on the last photo of Zolotaryov's camera could be of helicopter search lights. The KGB then had the group march down to the forest and let nature do the rest. Completely imagined, there is no proof of any kind.
Under the Freedom of Information Act, I did, however, ask the CIA for any information they might have on Zolotaryov. I was informed in a lot of legal jargon that it was none of my business.
 

July 25, 2020, 05:36:38 PM
Reply #16
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Some time ago, I did imagine a scenario in which the CIA snuck Zolotaryov out of the Soviet Union and planted an impostor, who was a CiA operative carrying secret info. When the Dyatlov group reached the village on the other side of the pass, which was to be their turn-around point, the impostor would pass the info to another CIA operative. But the KGB got wind of the plan, and tracked the group down by helicopter. The flash of bright light on the last photo of Zolotaryov's camera could be of helicopter search lights. The KGB then had the group march down to the forest and let nature do the rest. Completely imagined, there is no proof of any kind.
Under the Freedom of Information Act, I did, however, ask the CIA for any information they might have on Zolotaryov. I was informed in a lot of legal jargon that it was none of my business.

It seems an awful lot of trouble to carry out a simple pass the secret job. There must be so many easier and just as secure ways of doing so. I think the missing Photographs were of something  completely unrelated to expionage.
DB