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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Injuries  (Read 2493 times)

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December 09, 2020, 04:18:31 PM
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GKM


Anthony Beaver is a historian and has written what is regarded among scholars as the preeminent book on the battle of Stalingrad. In 1942 as the Red Army was planning their counter offensive several companies of Siberian troops were called up and being trained very secretly. Their commander had them dig deep trenches and ordered the soldiers to lay in them after which T34 tanks were driven over them. Done as encouragement to make certain the soldiers dug their trench deep. This was called "ironing". I am certainly not suggesting there were tanks anywhere nearby, not by any means, but the 3 injuries that were fatal could have been caused by a pressure equal to the "ironing" method. Merely food for thought. A massive amount of pressure. But how this pressure occurred to those 3 souls I have no idea.

December 09, 2020, 04:34:35 PM
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sarapuk

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Anthony Beaver is a historian and has written what is regarded among scholars as the preeminent book on the battle of Stalingrad. In 1942 as the Red Army was planning their counter offensive several companies of Siberian troops were called up and being trained very secretly. Their commander had them dig deep trenches and ordered the soldiers to lay in them after which T34 tanks were driven over them. Done as encouragement to make certain the soldiers dug their trench deep. This was called "ironing". I am certainly not suggesting there were tanks anywhere nearby, not by any means, but the 3 injuries that were fatal could have been caused by a pressure equal to the "ironing" method. Merely food for thought. A massive amount of pressure. But how this pressure occurred to those 3 souls I have no idea.

This idea of Military vehicles having crushed some of the Dyatlov group has been mentioned in other parts of this Forum. Such vehicles would have left traces not just tracks but also oil etc.
DB

December 09, 2020, 05:07:42 PM
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GKM


I  did not intend this post to suggest I supported military equipment on the slope. It was meant only as an example of the different types of pressure that could cause such injuries. I will not post a theory until I have one that supports all the "facts" , little as those "facts " are.

December 09, 2020, 05:23:30 PM
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marieuk


this is a very interesting point.  I'm still reading my way through the forum, but wondered if it was possible for an expert to tell if the rib fractures were caused by one event or multiple events?  At least if we knew for sure it would rule some things out I guess.  apologies in advance if this has already been asked/answered. 

December 10, 2020, 02:13:04 PM
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sarapuk

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this is a very interesting point.  I'm still reading my way through the forum, but wondered if it was possible for an expert to tell if the rib fractures were caused by one event or multiple events?  At least if we knew for sure it would rule some things out I guess.  apologies in advance if this has already been asked/answered.

The original Autopsies should have told us more, but unfortunately they leave a lot to be desired. We have photos and we have descriptions but its impossible to say for certain how the Rib injuries occurred just by looking at the photos and descriptions we were given.
DB

December 10, 2020, 05:30:07 PM
Reply #5
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marieuk


this is a very interesting point.  I'm still reading my way through the forum, but wondered if it was possible for an expert to tell if the rib fractures were caused by one event or multiple events?  At least if we knew for sure it would rule some things out I guess.  apologies in advance if this has already been asked/answered.

The original Autopsies should have told us more, but unfortunately they leave a lot to be desired. We have photos and we have descriptions but its impossible to say for certain how the Rib injuries occurred just by looking at the photos and descriptions we were given.

thanks sarapuk.  i'm too squeamish to look at the photos, but have read some bits of the autopsy reports. 

December 11, 2020, 02:52:47 AM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Anthony Beaver is a historian and has written what is regarded among scholars as the preeminent book on the battle of Stalingrad. In 1942 as the Red Army was planning their counter offensive several companies of Siberian troops were called up and being trained very secretly. Their commander had them dig deep trenches and ordered the soldiers to lay in them after which T34 tanks were driven over them. Done as encouragement to make certain the soldiers dug their trench deep. This was called "ironing". I am certainly not suggesting there were tanks anywhere nearby, not by any means, but the 3 injuries that were fatal could have been caused by a pressure equal to the "ironing" method. Merely food for thought. A massive amount of pressure. But how this pressure occurred to those 3 souls I have no idea.


Some important features of the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

1. Their breast cages had suffered major force.

2. The broken ribs were not accompanied with injuries to their limbs.

From 1) and 2) we can infer this:

- The broken ribs could not have been caused by a fall, even if the slope had been sufficiently steep to allow a high impact. If there is a fall, the unfortunates do rarely if ever fall on their ribs with no damage to the face or limbs.

- The broken ribs could not have been caused by an avalanche, because there were demonstrably no traces of avalanches in the area and the terrain did not allow for any avalanche. Moreover, it would have been improbable that only the rib cages were damaged with no similar pressure damage to the face and limbs. So these crushed rib cages could not have been caused by avalanches.

- Any vehicle which were run over them would have severely damaged the limbs, and not only parts of the rib cages would have been affected. In addition, such heavy vehicles would have left deep tracks - whereas ski tracks made by the attackers would have been completely erased between February 2 and February 26.

Therefore, Dubinina and Zolotaryov must have been killed as a result of being subjected to very hard blows. Such blows might very well be delivered by trained close combat specialists who know that repeated blows with the elbow (or perhaps a rifle butt) to the rib cage will kill the victims by internal bleeding and/or cardiac arrest. The pattern of injury found in these two victims seem compatible with one or two attackers holding the victim upright in a fixed position while another attacker deliver the lethal blows. Be that as it may, there is nothing to indicate that they were run over by any form of vehicle.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 02:57:08 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

December 11, 2020, 05:40:29 AM
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GKM


Yes, I have to agree. You make some excellent points in all your post. I lean toward  murder but still cannot commit to it 100 percent. I cannot, however, see these "murders" as a government operation. Alas I can make no better argument.

December 11, 2020, 07:24:06 AM
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Star man

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How can a trained expert in combat ensure that the all the ribs break at their weakest point using repeated blows.

Regards

Star man

December 11, 2020, 08:21:46 AM
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mk


Quote from: Star man
How can a trained expert in combat ensure that the all the ribs break at their weakest point using repeated blows.
I'm not sure if I understand it right, but I think that this is one of the basic problems with the injuries.  Dubinina and Zolotaryov both had more than one rib that was broken in two places.  As I understand it, this is called a flail chest because it leaves a section of ribs "floating free"--that are not connected to other ribs.  It seems that ribs only break this way in unusual circumstances.  Generally, the rib will break first at its weakest point.  After that, when force is applied, the rib will keep giving way at the broken place.  It seems, from what I've read here, that in order for a rib to break in two distinct points the pressure must be instantaneous,  exceedingly strong, and applied in a specific way.  Being hit by a car is one way this happens.  It can also happen if someone falls from a good height while they are unconscious.  (If they are conscious, they usually have broken limbs as they try to break their fall.)  There are a few good posts on here about flail chests; I'll try to find and link them.

ETA: Star man, were these your own calculations I'm thinking of?  Seems like I remember your doing some study about the chest injuries and various possibilities.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 08:34:46 AM by mk »

December 11, 2020, 03:29:42 PM
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Star man

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Quote from: Star man
How can a trained expert in combat ensure that the all the ribs break at their weakest point using repeated blows.
I'm not sure if I understand it right, but I think that this is one of the basic problems with the injuries.  Dubinina and Zolotaryov both had more than one rib that was broken in two places.  As I understand it, this is called a flail chest because it leaves a section of ribs "floating free"--that are not connected to other ribs.  It seems that ribs only break this way in unusual circumstances.  Generally, the rib will break first at its weakest point.  After that, when force is applied, the rib will keep giving way at the broken place.  It seems, from what I've read here, that in order for a rib to break in two distinct points the pressure must be instantaneous,  exceedingly strong, and applied in a specific way.  Being hit by a car is one way this happens.  It can also happen if someone falls from a good height while they are unconscious.  (If they are conscious, they usually have broken limbs as they try to break their fall.)  There are a few good posts on here about flail chests; I'll try to find and link them.

ETA: Star man, were these your own calculations I'm thinking of?  Seems like I remember your doing some study about the chest injuries and various possibilities.

Yes.  I did analyse the chest injuries and my conclusion is pretty much what you have outlined.  I think WAB did a more detailed analysis than I did.  It does appear that the chest injuries were caused by a massive blow at high speed, equivalent to a fall from 3 to 4 metres.  To put it into perspective, for a human to inflict the same injury and apply the same impulse to the chest, they would need to be capable of knocking a person 3 to 4 metres vertically into the air.  Know anyone who can do that?  Another option would be to drop a very heavy boulder onto them from about 2 metres, say 150kg to 300kg.  It might be possible for several people to do that.

Regards

Star man

December 11, 2020, 07:52:36 PM
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RidgeWatcher


I worked in Trauma Surgery, more or less for over twenty years. Even in traumas you don't see it very much. When you do see it you know you are in for a ride because the underlying damage to the coronary structures and pericardial sac along with the lungs almost always is going to be compromised. These days with all the air bags you see it less than say when your chest hits a steering wheel directly on, at over 30mph.
I am not sure how Semyon's nor Lyuda's flail chest happened but I have a difficult time thinking it happened by falling 12 feet onto some boughs on top of the snow. I have always had a hard time seeing this. When you do see flail chest there is almost always a visual malformation of the chest and skin surface with signs of trauma and it is very painful with the patients most likely in shock. The last 20-30 minutes for those two had to be horrifying, terrifying if they were conscious. Out there in the cold I have a hard time believing that anyone could cause this with a weapon unless Semyon and Lyuda were being held down or held against a tree.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 02:09:54 PM by RidgeWatcher »

December 12, 2020, 02:57:25 AM
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Star man

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I worked in Trauma Surgery, more or less for over twenty years. Even in traumas you don't see it very much. When you do see it you know you are in for a ride because the underlying damage to the coronary structures and pericardial sac along with the lungs almost always is going to be compromised. These days with all the air bags you see it less than say when your chest hits a steering wheel directly on, at over 30mph.
I am not sure how Semyon's nor Lyuda's flail chest happened but I have a difficult time thinking it happened by falling 12 feet onto some boughs on top of the snow. I have always had a hard time seeing this. When you do see flail chest there is almost always a visual malformation of the chest and ski surface signs of trauma and it is very painful with the patients most likely in shock. The last 20-30 minutes for those two had to be horrifying, terrifying if they were conscious. Out there in the cold I have a hard time believing that anyone could cause this with a weapon unless Semyon and Lyuda were being held down or held against a tree.

Agreed.  Would have to fall onto hard objects like large boulders.  I can’t see any human wielded weapon causing these injuries either.

Regards

Star man

December 12, 2020, 02:35:12 PM
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RidgeWatcher


Flail chest would mean that either Semyon and Lyuda were injured where they were found or they were carried there, most likely from the Cedar tree area.

"The most dangerous aspect of flail chest is that there are now razor sharp bone ends directly over their lungs. Those sharp bone segments are moving against the natural movement of the chest, which essentially equates to having knives grating around in your chest cavity every time you breathe. You’re going to want to address that. Don’t press on it unless you’re sure their heart has stopped. If it has, you’re not going to do any additional damage anyway, so you may as well give it a try. If you’re unsure if it’s flail chest, but they’ve got the symptoms that make you suspect it; treat it as flail chest until proven otherwise".

If they were conscious they were having difficulty breathing and would probably have a difficult time answering any questions. This is a long shot but Lyuda may have been placed in her awkward stream position to alleviate her pain??? while she was still conscious but in shock.

Could the Dyatlov students know how to take care of this in the field? Semyon, from his war experience, had seen flail chest, I am sure. Lyuda had been shot by accident on another outing.

Warning: Not for the Squeamish, this is an in hospital patient with flail chest, I am only presenting this to show how incapacitated they would be down by the Cedar and the Ravine.



December 12, 2020, 04:44:35 PM
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sarapuk

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Anthony Beaver is a historian and has written what is regarded among scholars as the preeminent book on the battle of Stalingrad. In 1942 as the Red Army was planning their counter offensive several companies of Siberian troops were called up and being trained very secretly. Their commander had them dig deep trenches and ordered the soldiers to lay in them after which T34 tanks were driven over them. Done as encouragement to make certain the soldiers dug their trench deep. This was called "ironing". I am certainly not suggesting there were tanks anywhere nearby, not by any means, but the 3 injuries that were fatal could have been caused by a pressure equal to the "ironing" method. Merely food for thought. A massive amount of pressure. But how this pressure occurred to those 3 souls I have no idea.


Some important features of the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov:

1. Their breast cages had suffered major force.

2. The broken ribs were not accompanied with injuries to their limbs.

From 1) and 2) we can infer this:

- The broken ribs could not have been caused by a fall, even if the slope had been sufficiently steep to allow a high impact. If there is a fall, the unfortunates do rarely if ever fall on their ribs with no damage to the face or limbs.

- The broken ribs could not have been caused by an avalanche, because there were demonstrably no traces of avalanches in the area and the terrain did not allow for any avalanche. Moreover, it would have been improbable that only the rib cages were damaged with no similar pressure damage to the face and limbs. So these crushed rib cages could not have been caused by avalanches.

- Any vehicle which were run over them would have severely damaged the limbs, and not only parts of the rib cages would have been affected. In addition, such heavy vehicles would have left deep tracks - whereas ski tracks made by the attackers would have been completely erased between February 2 and February 26.

Therefore, Dubinina and Zolotaryov must have been killed as a result of being subjected to very hard blows. Such blows might very well be delivered by trained close combat specialists who know that repeated blows with the elbow (or perhaps a rifle butt) to the rib cage will kill the victims by internal bleeding and/or cardiac arrest. The pattern of injury found in these two victims seem compatible with one or two attackers holding the victim upright in a fixed position while another attacker deliver the lethal blows. Be that as it may, there is nothing to indicate that they were run over by any form of vehicle.

On the contrary. A fall could have caused such injuries. But it would have had to have been a fall from a significant height. Higher than at the Ravine. The injuries could also have been caused by something crushing them.
DB

December 12, 2020, 04:47:59 PM
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sarapuk

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I worked in Trauma Surgery, more or less for over twenty years. Even in traumas you don't see it very much. When you do see it you know you are in for a ride because the underlying damage to the coronary structures and pericardial sac along with the lungs almost always is going to be compromised. These days with all the air bags you see it less than say when your chest hits a steering wheel directly on, at over 30mph.
I am not sure how Semyon's nor Lyuda's flail chest happened but I have a difficult time thinking it happened by falling 12 feet onto some boughs on top of the snow. I have always had a hard time seeing this. When you do see flail chest there is almost always a visual malformation of the chest and skin surface with signs of trauma and it is very painful with the patients most likely in shock. The last 20-30 minutes for those two had to be horrifying, terrifying if they were conscious. Out there in the cold I have a hard time believing that anyone could cause this with a weapon unless Semyon and Lyuda were being held down or held against a tree.

Do you think its possible that the injuries could have been caused by a fall from a much greater height than was at the Ravine  ? 
DB

December 19, 2020, 11:15:25 AM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


On the contrary. A fall could have caused such injuries. But it would have had to have been a fall from a significant height. Higher than at the Ravine. The injuries could also have been caused by something crushing them.


No, it could not.

A fall would not affect the breast cage without any damage to the limbs or face.

December 19, 2020, 11:20:31 AM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Agreed.  Would have to fall onto hard objects like large boulders.  I can’t see any human wielded weapon causing these injuries either.


Trust me, trained close combat specialists can crush even skulls with elbow strikes. Special forces operators know this, and they know how to crush a human body in order to cause internal bleeding, shock, and death.

It is also fully possible that a rifle butt was used.

Either way, there is no problem crushing a human breast cage.

It is fully conceivable that one or two attackers held their victims, while another dealt the deadly blows.

December 19, 2020, 02:24:19 PM
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sarapuk

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On the contrary. A fall could have caused such injuries. But it would have had to have been a fall from a significant height. Higher than at the Ravine. The injuries could also have been caused by something crushing them.


No, it could not.

A fall would not affect the breast cage without any damage to the limbs or face.

Well say someone fell from a building onto a concrete floor. You could then suggest that damage to other parts of the body would be evident. But a fall onto snow is another matter.
DB

December 19, 2020, 02:26:28 PM
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sarapuk

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Agreed.  Would have to fall onto hard objects like large boulders.  I can’t see any human wielded weapon causing these injuries either.


Trust me, trained close combat specialists can crush even skulls with elbow strikes. Special forces operators know this, and they know how to crush a human body in order to cause internal bleeding, shock, and death.

It is also fully possible that a rifle butt was used.

Either way, there is no problem crushing a human breast cage.

It is fully conceivable that one or two attackers held their victims, while another dealt the deadly blows.

And presumably they clinically removed the eyes and tongue. And left no footprints or other traces.
DB

December 20, 2020, 02:59:03 PM
Reply #20
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RidgeWatcher


I have watched enough videos of Shaolin Monks to fully accept that they could cause any harm possible. It is the wide, evenly distributed forceful impact that would cause flail chest syndrome. Think like a steering wheel. Think like a halibut and not a salmon causing this injury. The ribs were build to move, they take a rib fracture fairly easy, fracturing at one point, the cartilage that attaches the ribs to the other bone structures is built for flexing, obviously. The ribs tend to fracture in splinters and pieces, they have nowhere to go but into the chest tissue.

A martial arts kick to the rib cage would fracture, most likely, under 3 ribs. The definition for flail chest is 3 or more, free floaters. If they had been in explosions it would be obvious, they tend to rearrange body parts and melt them into other body parts, it would be visually obvious with shredded and/or melted skin edges.

Simple Geometry comes to mind: 1 point determines a point, 2 points determine a line and 3 points determine a plain. Flail chest is a 3 or 4 point injury.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 07:04:49 PM by RidgeWatcher »

December 20, 2020, 04:36:53 PM
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Star man

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I have watched enough videos of Shaolin Monks to fully accept that they could cause any harm possible. It is the wide, evenly distributed forceful impact that would cause flail chest syndrome. Think like a steering wheel. Think like a halibut and not a salmon causing this injury. The ribs were build to move, they take a rib fracture fairly easy, fracturing at one point, the cartilage that attaches the ribs to the other bone structures is built for flexing, obviously. The ribs tend to fracture in splinters and pieces, they have nowhere to go but into the chest tissue.

A martial arts kick to the rib cage would fracture, most likely, under 3 ribs. The definition for flail chest is 3 or more, free floaters. If they had been in explosions it wold be obvious, they tend to rearrange body parts and melt them into other body parts, it would be visually obvious with shredded and/or melted skin edges.

Simple Geometry cones to mind: 1 point determines a point, 2 points determine a line and 3 points determine a plain. Flail chest is a 3 or 4 point injury.

I agree again.  Although an explosion that generates a wind blast could cause them to be thrown against something, and without burns.  Like a distant nuclear detonation and wind blast. 

Regards

Star man

April 10, 2021, 09:59:39 AM
Reply #22
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Dona


They were all lying down when injured.. and they would not have been lying down  in the snow prior to injuries.. They had to have still been in the tent.




April 11, 2021, 03:17:26 AM
Reply #23
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Manti


Ok but this opens a whole new "can of worms"...

What would crush them in the tent on the slope? No trees around. Did a rocket fall on them?


If the tent was instead in the forest, then it, and the bodies, must have been moved by someone. Including lifting the fallen tree from the bodies. Very elaborate and expensive operation and what is the motive?

April 11, 2021, 06:27:17 AM
Reply #24
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Dona


I dont know but, the bodies are evidence and this is what they are   showing..

Why would they all be laying down in the snow, side by side.. Exhaustion from the walk from the tent.. Possibly.. Then, a tree suddenly fell on them.. Is that plausible?

That position that Nick is in looks like a relaxed position to me.. like he is sleeping.. I dont think he would be in that position if a gun was pointed at him..or resting in 20 degree below 0 weather.

And maybe they were able to move the tree off their friends.. Judging from the  5 inch bruise on Nicks arm,   I would assume that was the width of the tree or object that hit him.. So, not so big. Maybe thats why they are so beat up  their hands all scraped up etc,, trying to get the tree off them..

 I dont know

April 11, 2021, 07:06:59 AM
Reply #25
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Dona


He could also be lying on his side with his head on his arm.. But that  gives the same problems . And that the object could be larger..or smaller..lol

Nooo that cant be right...  his head has a sharp injury.. His arm wouldn't cave his head in.. turn his skull into rice krispies..

April 11, 2021, 04:39:06 PM
Reply #26
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Dona


Maybe they DID move the tent..

There is no camp fire at the tent, that I know of.. How did they eat dinner? Any food they carried would have been frozen solid.

Wouldnt it?

April 12, 2021, 11:21:49 AM
Reply #27
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Manti


Yes just started a thread about that a few days ago... there was half-eaten pork loin found in the tent and somehow they must have defrosted it. Campfire or stove, neither was used on the slope, so either some other method (Jean Daniel Reuss has an idea here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=900.msg15435#msg15435 ), or the tent wasn't originally on the slope, which I'm still reluctant to accept but maybe....

April 12, 2021, 11:58:13 AM
Reply #28
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Dona


Possibly... but its just a guess.. Might also  have been  warmers for hands  and feet etc..

But there  is  the footprints info too..

Why didnt Zena et al., retrace their own footprints back to the tent.. Maybe because they didnt make them.

April 12, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
Reply #29
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Dona