Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: MDGross on February 05, 2023, 12:17:30 PM
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The autopsy report points out these injuries to Slobodin:
• on left side of skull - fracture of the frontal bone
• hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles on both sides of the skull
• right eye bruise on upper eyelid with hemorrhage into underlying tissue
• bruises on the knuckles of both hands.
At first glance, these are injuries from a fight. He was knocked down and his head struck a rock causing a fracture. Or maybe a punch caused his head to strike a tree.
The temporalis muscles are just above the jaw, these muscles open and close your jaw. So being struck in both jaws could cause hemorrhaging.
He was also struck above the right eye, which caused a bruise and hemorrhaging.
The knuckles on every finger (except the thumb) were bruised on both hands. So Slobodin punched something.
In terms of just plain toughness, Rustem was the alpha male of the group. He was exceptionally fit (he had been a long-distance runner) and probably the most accomplished skier. And very courageous - in 1958 he and his father hiked through a mountainous area, where people of Russian descent would most likely be killed if the locals found them. IF the Dyatlov group was attacked by outsiders, Rustem would have been the first one to try and protect them.
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Beaten about the head and face in a fist fight. Those injuries certainly are not consistent with a slab slip. They might suggest internal strife in the group or attack from without. Rustem and others were facing the tent when they fell. If it was a fight within the group, it would be about loyalty, sexual tension, hallucination or unnecessary risk. From without it was from aggressors or a fallen object.
If a slab slide did happen and everyone retreated to the woods, could a slip and fall on exposed rock cause the cause instead?
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I think the knuckles of the fingers can become bruised due to crawling on hardened snow on all fours, when one's feet become too frostbitten to be able to stand...
As for the head injuries, I've always thought the frontal bone fracture and temporalis muscle injuries could be from the same cause, but maybe this is not correct. Doesn't this muscle extend over the sides of the frontal bone?
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Yes, hitting his head against a rock could explain the skull fracture. But eight bruised knuckles could only result from striking something. Not necessarily a person, maybe he was out of his head and punched a tree. in considering Rustem's personality and character, I just think that in the face of a threat from outsiders, he would not try to slip off in the dark. He would stand and fight.
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I agree that Rustem would not quail before a threat.I think it is easy to attribute his hurts to an altercation, but when he fell in death, was he running to or from a battle?
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There was a thread by a man who claimed his late father confessed shortly before death to flying a hunting group out there at night and they ended up hunting the hikers after Rustem floored a hunter for suggesting the girls join the hunters inside their tent. The hikers went on to fall like flies in the cold, while the hunters survived, and had time to sweep 1079 for tracks and shell casings. An artifact, a hikers knife, had been kept in a box under the father's bed for decades. He couldn't go public as his mother was still alive, but invited applications for the film rights to an e-mail address.
I have to confess I have a hard time imagining Rustem as a he-man, a hang loose long distance runner, physically resilient, yes. It can only be based on a subjective opinion, but I believe I've studied the photo's more than most and from his kinesics throughout his life and on this hike he just doesn't look the type to be aggressive. The only reference there seems to be suggesting he 'knew how to handle himself' is the story of him and his father on a hike together in what is described as though it was bandit country.
Because I believe the hikers may have been poisoned and suffered seizures, I could suggest that Rustem collapsed face down into the snow, and suffered an earlier seizure which caused a head injury. Falling onto your muzzle, even in snow, without breaking your fall could cause facial bruising. Do it onto a hard floor and it would break your nose. Convulsing on the ground, repeatedly grinding your face into the snow, could cause all manner of scratches. Some hikers had them to their upper eyelids, and Igor's left underarm was covered in scratches.
As an example, the British popstar Professor Green has recently had another epileptic fit and fell face forward alone at home blacking his eye and grinding grazes into his cheek from several minutes of convulsions. It's taken him a while to recover. A previous fit saw him fracture 3 vertebrae in his neck.
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Eurocentric, your latest post is interesting. Those hunters who were rutting did a good job of policing their brass, since none has been found. I suppose a hunter must have his trophy, er knife, but I'd think the other hunters, deep in their musk, would object. All in all, it would be great fodder for a movie; guns,girls the great outdoors and murder most foul!
The story needs some serious vetting up in here!
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The autopsy report points out these injuries to Slobodin:
• on left side of skull - fracture of the frontal bone
• hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles on both sides of the skull
• right eye bruise on upper eyelid with hemorrhage into underlying tissue
• bruises on the knuckles of both hands.
I took a look at the injuries sustained by the other hikers and there is a bit of over lap for those injuries. I wasn't sure the best way for me to put it into a readable format so the injury is followed by the initials of the hiker and the number corresponding to the autopsy diagram. At times the wording was different but pointing to the exact same spot so I grouped it (rightly or wrongly) where I thought it could be
back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purpleYK07
metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. ID13
brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal jointsZK07
bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles)RS07
maybe in this group
detachment of the 2 cm epidermis on the back of his left handYK11
left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruisesID14
__________________________________________________________-
Diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscleYK02
dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminenceZK01
multiple fractures to the temporal bone, with extensions to the frontal and sphenoid bones, the close up of the fractures to the skull is shown on the pictureNTB01 (R SIDE)
hemorrhages in the temporalis musclesRS01 9(R &L)
fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)RS12 (L SIDE)
damaged tissues around left temporal bone, size 4x4 cmLD02
bruise around left temporal boneYK03
_________________________________________________________________________________________
minor abrasions on the upper eyelidsID02
dark red abrasion on the upper eyelidsZK03
brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissuesRS04
__________________________________________________________________________________
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Slobodin was walking towards the tent with Igor and Zina. The unknown Power has captured Igor. In this situation, Slobodin and Zina started walking fast. They were running now. In fact, Slobodin was running. Slobodin might even have run farther. Because he was a runner. But she didn't want to leave Zina behind. After all, she was a woman. It's left behind. The unknown Force dealt him a blow from behind on his left temple. He fell to the ground very fast and stayed there. The bruises on his hands were probably caused by him covering himself with his hands to protect his head and torso as he fell to the ground. Because he had fallen too fast, and he defended himself with his hands. This caused the bruise. Then he wanted to get up, but he couldn't. Yes, she was the bravest in the group with Igor and Zina. They were brave and hardworking. But they also kill before they reach the tent! May Allah forgive them and put them in Paradise. Amine
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And the proof that Rustam was running is the ice where he died. So slobodin was running and sweating. And when he died, the ground below was frozen with sweat.
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On another thread I opined that Rustem ( and others) were found heading away from the forest on a path parallel to the cache. The were aligned in the direction of the tent. Rustem was alive when he fell was evidenced by ice formation. This implies that there was a purpose to their travel. It implies they were trying to get to the tent. It means, by definition, the tent was on 1079 all along. It implies the tent both had something worth getting and that getting to it was a possibility. Common sense dictates that the trio going back to the tent would not be able to outrun a determined attacker. Even making a defensive stand can be ruled out in favor of covering distance. It appears that the survivors did not stop, strip or otherwise attend to their fallen comrade. Rather, it was a struggle to the end to regain the tent and its resources.
Therefore, the cause of Rustem's injuries for me is secondary to understanding the unknown compelling force. Occams razor applied to this situation leads me to conclude a bad windstorm drove the hikers downhill and the Russian winter soared noone.
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[quote author=GlennM link=topic=1378.msg22010#msg22010
Therefore, the cause of Rustem's injuries for me is secondary to understanding the unknown compelling force. Occams razor applied to this situation leads me to conclude a bad windstorm drove the hikers downhill and the Russian winter soared noone.
[/quote]
Достаточно посмотреть на посмертные фото Рустема - как становится ясно, что он погиб в драке. Драке с ликвидаторами.
It is enough to look at the posthumous photos of Rustem - as it becomes clear that he died in a fight. A fight with the liquidators.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lz6WTpj/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/5KSRCjB/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phMLNKJ)
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[quote author=GlennM link=topic=1378.msg22010#msg22010
Therefore, the cause of Rustem's injuries for me is secondary to understanding the unknown compelling force. Occams razor applied to this situation leads me to conclude a bad windstorm drove the hikers downhill and the Russian winter soared noone.
Достаточно посмотреть на посмертные фото Рустема - как становится ясно, что он погиб в драке. Драке с ликвидаторами.
It is enough to look at the posthumous photos of Rustem - as it becomes clear that he died in a fight. A fight with the liquidators.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lz6WTpj/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/5KSRCjB/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phMLNKJ)
[/quote]
What do these photos show? What about the others? Where are the signs of a fight?
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[quote author=GlennM link=topic=1378.msg22010#msg22010
Therefore, the cause of Rustem's injuries for me is secondary to understanding the unknown compelling force. Occams razor applied to this situation leads me to conclude a bad windstorm drove the hikers downhill and the Russian winter soared noone.
Достаточно посмотреть на посмертные фото Рустема - как становится ясно, что он погиб в драке. Драке с ликвидаторами.
It is enough to look at the posthumous photos of Rustem - as it becomes clear that he died in a fight. A fight with the liquidators.
[/quote]
You are using photo's of Rustem before he thawed out, where his frozen face looks very different, and it might look as if he had severe swelling from being repeatedly beaten. When he had thawed out he looked very different.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Rustem-Slobodin-post-mortem-15.jpg
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Rustem-Slobodin-post-mortem-16.jpg
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What do these photos show? What about the others? Where are the signs of a fight?
О, да! Никаких следов драки нет.. Рустем скончался тихо и мирно, просто замерз от плохой погоды.
Oh, yes! There are no signs of a fight.. Rustem died quietly and peacefully, just froze from bad weather.
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You are using photo's of Rustem before he thawed out, where his frozen face looks very different, and it might look as if he had severe swelling from being repeatedly beaten. When he had thawed out he looked very different.
Думаю, что неразмороженные фото с явными признаками драки, синяками под глазами, гематомами лица, сжатыми кулаками, выраженной ненавистью в лице - есть подлинные, первичные фото без фотошопа.
I think that unfrozen photos with obvious signs of a fight, bruises under the eyes, facial bruises, clenched fists, expressed hatred in the face - there are genuine, primary photos without Photoshop.
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You are using photo's of Rustem before he thawed out, where his frozen face looks very different, and it might look as if he had severe swelling from being repeatedly beaten. When he had thawed out he looked very different.
Думаю, что неразмороженные фото с явными признаками драки, синяками под глазами, гематомами лица, сжатыми кулаками, выраженной ненавистью в лице - есть подлинные, первичные фото без фотошопа.
I think that unfrozen photos with obvious signs of a fight, bruises under the eyes, facial bruises, clenched fists, expressed hatred in the face - there are genuine, primary photos without Photoshop.
Many that died by freezing have clenched fists. Where's the expressed hatred in the face? Unfrozen shows lots of things. My frozen chicken in my freezer looks different when it's thawed ????
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Many that died by freezing have clenched fists. Where's the expressed hatred in the face? Unfrozen shows lots of things. My frozen chicken in my freezer looks different when it's thawed ????
Я предполагаю, что фото размороженного Рустема не совпадают с изначальной фото. Где разбитый нос?? Где отек лица?? Где гематома на пол лица??
I assume that the photos of the defrosted Rustem do not match the original photo. Where's the broken nose?? Where is the swelling of the face?? Where is the hematoma on the floor of the face??
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Many that died by freezing have clenched fists. Where's the expressed hatred in the face? Unfrozen shows lots of things. My frozen chicken in my freezer looks different when it's thawed ????
Я предполагаю, что фото размороженного Рустема не совпадают с изначальной фото. Где разбитый нос?? Где отек лица?? Где гематома на пол лица??
I assume that the photos of the defrosted Rustem do not match the original photo. Where's the broken nose?? Where is the swelling of the face?? Where is the hematoma on the floor of the face??
Why do the photos of the defrosted Rustem Rustem not match original photo.
You have written a book and presented the photos of Rustem as evidence of fighting. I will ask you to be thorough in evidence based practice,.that is to give ten examples of bodies frozen by hypothermia and , or violence suffered by the hands of other people. ( Ten is a small and yet still not conclusive but for the exercise, ten will do) that show conclusively that Rustem suffered fighting injuries from the photos that you submit. I want all variables, pathologist reports and evidence.
As you ask or state?
Where's the broken nose?? Where is the swelling of the face?? Where is the hematoma on the floor of the face??
I ask you , Where's the broken nose?? Where is the swelling of the face?? Where is the hematoma on the floor of the face??
Please expand with your evidence regarding the photo.
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I have posted this link before below and it has graphic images that some members may find upsetting. Warning., Containes images of dead bodies that some viewers may find distressing .
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6474461/
There is also a good explanation of the complication of death by hypothermia, including, marks to the skin , paradoxical undressing, tunneling etc etc.
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You are using photo's of Rustem before he thawed out, where his frozen face looks very different, and it might look as if he had severe swelling from being repeatedly beaten. When he had thawed out he looked very different.
Думаю, что неразмороженные фото с явными признаками драки, синяками под глазами, гематомами лица, сжатыми кулаками, выраженной ненавистью в лице - есть подлинные, первичные фото без фотошопа.
I think that unfrozen photos with obvious signs of a fight, bruises under the eyes, facial bruises, clenched fists, expressed hatred in the face - there are genuine, primary photos without Photoshop.
Many that died by freezing have clenched fists. Where's the expressed hatred in the face? Unfrozen shows lots of things. My frozen chicken in my freezer looks different when it's thawed ????
Stop buying them from Tesco, all of theirs has been in a fight.
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Many that died by freezing have clenched fists. Where's the expressed hatred in the face? Unfrozen shows lots of things. My frozen chicken in my freezer looks different when it's thawed ????
Я предполагаю, что фото размороженного Рустема не совпадают с изначальной фото. Где разбитый нос?? Где отек лица?? Где гематома на пол лица??
I assume that the photos of the defrosted Rustem do not match the original photo. Where's the broken nose?? Where is the swelling of the face?? Where is the hematoma on the floor of the face??
All I can see in the defrosted photo is a mildly bloodied nose, a cut to his left cheekbone and what is either blood or dirt to his right cheek. The patholgist will find and list more detail, but photographically there isn't much to suggest he had been beaten up, and at no point did he ever suggest Rustem's nose was broken.
In fact quite the opposite: "The bridge of the nose is straight." Sheet 97, line 9.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-95-103?lid=1
Mother Nature, collapse, and the agonal stages of death can all acount for that.
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Rustem was warm when he fell the last time. He was oriented to the tent, not the forest,nor the cache. His body therefore was not planted and the tent was on 1079 , just where it was found. His injuries are not going to reveal why he left the tent. His injuries hint at what he and others suffered once they left the tent. It is of secondary importance. He and others wanted to get to the tent because the previous threat was gone. What was it? Stormy weather.
.
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Everyone is warm when they fall for the last time:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/59eb601f2aeba56e54f2636a/1608100982422-3LGW2DMSDDD9KYSXJR8I/Stages+of+Hypothemia)
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You are using photo's of Rustem before he thawed out, where his frozen face looks very different, and it might look as if he had severe swelling from being repeatedly beaten. When he had thawed out he looked very different.
Думаю, что неразмороженные фото с явными признаками драки, синяками под глазами, гематомами лица, сжатыми кулаками, выраженной ненавистью в лице - есть подлинные, первичные фото без фотошопа.
I think that unfrozen photos with obvious signs of a fight, bruises under the eyes, facial bruises, clenched fists, expressed hatred in the face - there are genuine, primary photos without Photoshop.
Many that died by freezing have clenched fists. Where's the expressed hatred in the face? Unfrozen shows lots of things. My frozen chicken in my freezer looks different when it's thawed ????
Stop buying them from Tesco, all of theirs has been in a fight.
True story lol4
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So funny, I blew a milk bubble out of my nose!
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[quote author=GlennM link=topic=1378.msg22010#msg22010
Therefore, the cause of Rustem's injuries for me is secondary to understanding the unknown compelling force. Occams razor applied to this situation leads me to conclude a bad windstorm drove the hikers downhill and the Russian winter soared noone.
Достаточно посмотреть на посмертные фото Рустема - как становится ясно, что он погиб в драке. Драке с ликвидаторами.
It is enough to look at the posthumous photos of Rustem - as it becomes clear that he died in a fight. A fight with the liquidators.
(https://i.ibb.co/Lz6WTpj/2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/5KSRCjB/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phMLNKJ)
[/quote]
How quick you die to remain with fist ? I always thought that when you are knocked out or die the muscles first relax and maintaining hand in fist looks so odd here. Like he has frozen in a frame of a second .
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Igor Dyatlov also died with his fists clenched, a pugilistic pose which can happen during the agonal stages of death, and also due to tetany or strychnine poisoning where the back will arch, and we have a much better look at his metacarpals on the slab than Rustem's and none of the skin is broken.
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The injuries are of secondary importance. Of primary importance was the direction which he and others lay. Of primary importance is the layer of melt ice beneath him. These primary pieces of information demonstrate he was alive when he fell the last time. He could have walked toward the forest or toward the cache, but he walked toward the tent. This was his final conscious act.The tent was therefore on 1079 at elevation 880.
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This is a better explanation than I can do. I have translated this for ease. From forensic examination.
With a long stay of the corpse in conditions of low temperature (below 0 ° C), tissue freezing occurs. It is superficial and complete. Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation. When cracking the bones of the skull, post-mortem ruptures can occur, the skin in the area of which is saturated with hemolyzed blood, which can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury. Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold). In other cases, the “wedging” of the freezing brain into the large occipital foramen occurs (if there is no headdress, and the neck is wrapped in a scarf), while the divergence of the seams is not observed.
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Dam the lack of editting . I sent this before I had finished.
This is a better explanation than I can do. I have translated this for ease. From forensic examination.
With a long stay of the corpse in conditions of low temperature (below 0 ° C), tissue freezing occurs. It is superficial and complete. Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation. When cracking the bones of the skull, post-mortem ruptures can occur, the skin in the area of which is saturated with hemolyzed blood, which can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury. Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold). In other cases, the “wedging” of the freezing brain into the large occipital foramen occurs (if there is no headdress, and the neck is wrapped in a scarf), while the divergence of the seams is not observed.
A case study below.
Mr. N., aged 18, froze to death in a field during a snowstorm. His body was found 26 days later.
The posture of the corpse is typical of death from cold - the head and torso are slightly tilted forward, the arms are bent and the fists are located below the chin, the legs are slightly bent at the knee and hip joints.
There were many small brown-red abrasions and scratches on the face and back of the hands. No other damage was found on external examination.
In the soft integuments of the occipital and adjoining parts of the parietal region on the right, there are two moderate hemorrhages 3 × 4 cm. On the bones of the cranial vault, from the right parietal tubercle to a point located 2 cm above the outer end of the left superciliary arch, there is an arcuate fissure with uneven edges 17 cm long, the bulge of which was, on the left, slightly below the upper temporal line. The greatest width of the crack was 0.1 cm. The thickness of the bones along the crack was 0.3–0.4 cm. There were no additional cracks along the edge of the inner bone plate. There were no hemorrhages in the soft tissues along the crack.
According to the crack, there were ruptures of the dura mater: 0.7 cm long, 2.5 cm and ... cm long, separated by narrow bridges.
to continue
Diagnosis of the postmortem origin of cracks in the bones of the skull can be difficult, especially in the presence of significant putrefactive changes.
In this case, the following were taken into account: the localization of the crack, the remoteness and insignificance of hemorrhages in the soft tissues of the head, the absence of additional damage to the inner plate of bones along the edges, cracks and hemorrhages in the surrounding tissues in the presence of ruptures of the dura mater.
This led to the conclusion that an isolated crack in the bones of the cranial vault arose posthumously, due to the freezing of the corpse.
I would say it's similar to Rustem injuries
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By all indications, Rustem died in a fight: his face is completely covered with a hematoma. 2 cracks in the skull, traces of dried blood are visible from the hole in the nose. Hemorrhage under the bones of the skull, the brain looks like a shapeless mass. These injuries were sustained during life.
On the face - dog bites (?) and traces of dog claws??
(https://i.ibb.co/ncFD4Tt/image.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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photos for comparison
(https://i.ibb.co/Wc3kjpr/image.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/WBSX2BR/1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Hi Anna
Which photo is this? When did Rustem get two cracks in the skull? I don't see dog bites unfortunately and I definitely can't see the brain.?
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There were probably not the same dogs that took exception to exiting the helicopter.
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How someone can suggest a man had a broken nose, a bite to his face and his brain was a shapeless mass, just from looking at an old photo is a bigger mystery than the DPI itself. The pathologist would make these observations if they applied, but significantly, he did not.
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Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color
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Which photo is this? When did Rustem get two cracks in the skull? I don't see dog bites unfortunately and I definitely can't see the brain.?
А я не вижу в Рустеме человека мирно замерзшего из-за плохой погоды.
I don't see Rustem as a person peacefully frozen due to bad weather.
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Yes, there is a bite mark in the photo. But there is only the upper jaw bite. No lower jaw bites??? However, bites must have both upper and lower jaw bites. Or did the dog have no lower jaw teeth? Or how does it bite? Assassins didn't need dogs to kill them either. They just had to have weapons. And the dog reveals the presence of assassins from afar. And dogs are useless if tracking isn't necessary. And they reveal your presence. So the dog version is a very remote possibility.
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Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color
Hi Anna, could you give the link for this quote?
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And dogs are useless if tracking isn't necessary. And they reveal your presence. So the dog version is a very remote possibility.
The liquidators need dogs so that tourists cannot escape. Zina, Igor, and Krivonischenko have dog bites.
(https://i.ibb.co/f2P5TGJ/3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/n1cfBjT/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wQWC74T)
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Hi Anna, could you give the link for this quote?
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-slobodina-rustema
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Hi Anna, could you give the link for this quote?
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-slobodina-rustema
Ziljoe, she's just quoting from Slobodin's autopsy report (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-95-103?rbid=17743). However, she's not quoting Teddy's translation of same, to which I link in the preceding sentence.
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Thank you again RMK, your more useful than Google!
The reports do not talk about dog bites Anna. Plus the brain being a shapeless mass is nothing to do with an attack.
Rustem only has one fracture.
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There is a science experiment which dramatically proves the point. A hollow iron ball can be filled with water, sealed and frozen. It will break, loudly.
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The reports do not talk about dog bites Anna. Plus the brain being a shapeless mass is nothing to do with an attack.
Yes, the medical examiner does not write anything about dog bites. Don't forget, he wasn't independent, although he tried to write the truth. The presence of dogs on the pass is my unique research, which was included in the book ©, which explains the many lacerations on the hands and faces. And this proves the presence of outsiders during the tragedy. And proves the criminal version. The military, of course, had fighting dogs.
Please refer to my name when repeating the material. ©
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There is a science experiment which dramatically proves the point. A hollow iron ball can be filled with water, sealed and frozen. It will break, loudly.
Why didn't the other guys' skulls burst under the same conditions? Why is Thibault's skull smashed into meat?! Because there was a "BATTLE AT CEDAR" with liquidators who carried out the order to freeze tourists.©
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There is a science experiment which dramatically proves the point. A hollow iron ball can be filled with water, sealed and frozen. It will break, loudly.
Why didn't the other guys' skulls burst under the same conditions? Why is Thibault's skull smashed into meat?! Because there was a "BATTLE AT CEDAR" with liquidators who carried out the order to freeze tourists.©
Read this Anna.
With a long stay of the corpse in conditions of low temperature (below 0 ° C), tissue freezing occurs. It is superficial and complete. Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation. When cracking the bones of the skull, post-mortem ruptures can occur, the skin in the area of which is saturated with hemolyzed blood, which can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury. Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold). In other cases, the “wedging” of the freezing brain into the large occipital foramen occurs (if there is no headdress, and the neck is wrapped in a scarf), while the divergence of the seams is not observed.
The link to the above.
http://www.medical-enc.ru/sudmed/obshhee-ohlazhdenie-2.shtml
In this part, it explains what can happen by logical science.
"Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation."
The brain and fluids expand when freezing forcing the skull to crack or fracture.
"can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury"
This means it can be mistaken that injuries happened when the individual was alive
"Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through"
In this part it explains that it happens when the neck freeze's first, before glaciation (freezing) of the brain. It so happens that Rustems neck was exposed whilst he was wearing a hat , his hat will be an insulator to heat loss, thus allowing the fluids in the neck to freeze first. The ice bed was recorded under Rustem which again evidences that he died where he was found.
Mr. N., aged 18, froze to death in a field during a snowstorm. His body was found 26 days later.
The posture of the corpse is typical of death from cold - the head and torso are slightly tilted forward, the arms are bent and the fists are located below the chin, the legs are slightly bent at the knee and hip joints.
There were many small brown-red abrasions and scratches on the face and back of the hands. No other damage was found on external examination.
In the soft integuments of the occipital and adjoining parts of the parietal region on the right, there are two moderate hemorrhages 3 × 4 cm. On the bones of the cranial vault, from the right parietal tubercle to a point located 2 cm above the outer end of the left superciliary arch, there is an arcuate fissure with uneven edges 17 cm long, the bulge of which was, on the left, slightly below the upper temporal line. The greatest width of the crack was 0.1 cm. The thickness of the bones along the crack was 0.3–0.4 cm. There were no additional cracks along the edge of the inner bone plate. There were no hemorrhages in the soft tissues along the crack.
According to the crack, there were ruptures of the dura mater: 0.7 cm long, 2.5 cm and ... cm long, separated by narrow bridges.
There were no hemorrhages in the substance of the brain and under its membranes. The brain retained its appearance only on the surface, while its main substance inside turned into a easily soiled spreading mass without a putrid odor
Histological examination of the brain revealed multiple small voids of round, oval and irregular shape, spasmodic vessels, in places with hemolyzed blood. From the side of other internal organs, no pathology was found. There were no Vishnevsky spots on the gastric mucosa.
Diagnosis of the postmortem origin of cracks in the bones of the skull can be difficult, especially in the presence of significant putrefactive changes.
In this case, the following were taken into account: the localization of the crack, the remoteness and insignificance of hemorrhages in the soft tissues of the head, the absence of additional damage to the inner plate of bones along the edges, cracks and hemorrhages in the surrounding tissues in the presence of ruptures of the dura mater.
This led to the conclusion that an isolated crack in the bones of the cranial vault arose posthumously, due to the freezing of the corpse.
The link to the above the case study.
https://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1693
( I give all give all credit to Igor B )
@Anna, the other guy's skulls didn't burst as they didn't freeze the same way. Hope the above helps. It gives us a plausible explanation.
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" ... The brain and fluids expand when freezing, forcing the skull to crack or fracture."
I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system. afraid7
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The divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to the glaciation of the brain matter occur in cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold).
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Zina had 2 warm hats and no scarves. The skull is intact.
Rustem was not wearing a hat (according to the medical examiner), there was no scarf. Slobodin, in addition to a crack in the skull, has discrepancies in the bones of the skull. Look at Rustem's posthumous photo - he was killed in a fight, beaten, bitten by dogs.
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" ... The brain and fluids expand when freezing, forcing the skull to crack or fracture."
I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system. afraid7
For you amashilu thanky1 obviously this is the extreme
https://youtu.be/t5mdZD00POs
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The divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to the glaciation of the brain matter occur in cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold).
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Zina had 2 warm hats and no scarves. The skull is intact.
Rustem was not wearing a hat (according to the medical examiner), there was no scarf. Slobodin, in addition to a crack in the skull, has discrepancies in the bones of the skull. Look at Rustem's posthumous photo - he was killed in a fight, beaten, bitten by dogs.
It's not an exact science Anna. You like using photos , Rustem is wearing a hat where they find his body. There is no evidence of dogs or being bitten, as for a fight there is no direct evidence.
Zina's neck was covered by her clothing/hood and it doesn't happen everytime. Read the links. It explains that caution must be given when assuming cause of injuries. Things aren't always what they seem.
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The elephant in the room is that if you wish to escape from soldiers with their barking dogs, you recede into the woods, not climb onto a barren slope day or night. Dogs, and even their handlers are smarter than that.
If a DPI researcher thinks the hits he and others recieved were from assassins, then follow the money. Someone spent and someone earned money. There is a paper trail.
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I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system. afraid7
Water is really unusual in that it expands when it transitions from liquid to solid state (really, it starts to expand as it cools from 4°C to 0°C).
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The elephant in the room is that if you wish to escape from soldiers with their barking dogs, you recede into the woods, not climb onto a barren slope day or night. Dogs, and even their handlers are smarter than that.
If a DPI researcher thinks the hits he and others recieved were from assassins, then follow the money. Someone spent and someone earned money. There is a paper trail.
1. от собак не убежать! Ребята бросились к кедру и какое-то время спасались на кедре. Но пришлось спуститься. Думаю, Зина осталась на кедре и кедр ее спас. Она погибла последней от замерзания.
2.насчет денег вы правы на все 100!!!! Свердловская власть со страшной силой боялась потерять свою денежную должность!! Если бы в УПИ повторилась конференция 56 или туристы сбежали на запад (как было указано в ЛОЖНЫХ доносах - то Кириленко потерял бы должность и деньги и власть и карьеру!! Я об этом много раз повторяла!!!
1. there is no getting away from dogs! The guys rushed to the cedar and for a while escaped on the cedar. But they had to go down. I think Zina stayed on cedar, and cedar saved her. She died last from freezing.
2. you are 100% right about the money!!!! The Sverdlovsk authorities were terribly afraid of losing their money position!! If UPI had repeated the conference 56 or the tourists had fled to the west (as indicated in the FALSE denunciations - then Kirilenko would have lost his position, money, power and career!! I've said it many times!!!
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about money.
The head of the Sverdlovsk region Kirilenko in 1962 rose to the very top of power in Moscow, in the Kremlin.
Being old, he didn't want to retire. Quote from Kirilenko: "I fought for my place every day until the last!!" He didn't want to be ordinary, poor and disenfranchised. Kirilenko's words are underlined in the screenshot.
(https://i.ibb.co/kgJstmD/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DbLHYx)
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Кириленко А П. - в 1959 году - глава Свердловского обкома. Отвечал за все, что творилось в его области.
Kirilenko A. P. - in 1959 - the head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee. He was responsible for everything that was happening in his area.
(https://i.ibb.co/TM8mQ9Y/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CK7hjRm)
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I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system. afraid7
Water is really unusual in that it expands when it transitions from liquid to solid state (really, it starts to expand as it cools from 4°C to 0°C).
Just amazing. I feel like I should have known that, but I was probably sleeping in physics class when the subject came up.
Does brain tissue act the same as water? I know there is "some percentage" of water in the brain, but is there enough to make the whole brain expand and crack when freezing?
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Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color
Context is everything. You have been posting photo's of Rustem's frozen face to suggest that he had been so badly beaten that he was unrecognisable. You then suggested he had a broken nose, which he didn't. You've suggested he had a bite to his face, and any pathologist would identify such a wound as a bite, even if they sometimes cannot determine if it was human or animal. And then you're trying to imply that Rustem's head was so badly caved in that his brain was an unshapen mass, physically brain damaged, beaten to a pulp.
The pathologist didn't find this, it is true that he recorded the lack of shape (in English it's translated as an unformed mass, which means broadly the same thing) but the pathologist also describes the rest of Rustem's skull as intact, apart from his fracture so external impact cannot explain that. Some of the other hikers had brain tissues described as a jelly-like mass, this is because the brain soon turns to mush after death, and this was 3 weeks on, it doesn't mean they were all beaten about the head with a KGB baseball bat to mishapen their brains - which is implicitly what you are trying to suggest.
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Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color
Context is everything. You have been posting photo's of Rustem's frozen face to suggest that he had been so badly beaten that he was unrecognisable. You then suggested he had a broken nose, which he didn't. You've suggested he had a bite to his face, and any pathologist would identify such a wound as a bite, even if they sometimes cannot determine if it was human or animal. And then you're trying to imply that Rustem's head was so badly caved in that his brain was an unshapen mass, physically brain damaged, beaten to a pulp.
The pathologist didn't find this, it is true that he recorded the lack of shape (in English it's translated as an unformed mass, which means broadly the same thing) but the pathologist also describes the rest of Rustem's skull as intact, apart from his fracture so external impact cannot explain that. Some of the other hikers had brain tissues described as a jelly-like mass, this is because the brain soon turns to mush after death, and this was 3 weeks on, it doesn't mean they were all beaten about the head with a KGB baseball bat to mishapen their brains - which is implicitly what you are trying to suggest.
The brain expansion is in the links in this post . Forensic science.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1378.msg22258#msg22258
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You have been posting photo's of Rustem's frozen face to suggest that he had been so badly beaten that he was unrecognisable. You then suggested he had a broken nose, which he didn't. You've suggested he had a bite to his face, and any pathologist would identify such a wound as a bite, even if they sometimes cannot determine if it was human or animal. And then you're trying to imply that
1. I assumed that Rustem died in a fight, because the photo speaks eloquently about it: the face is swollen, a hematoma on the face, a swollen eye.
2. I assumed that Rustem had dog bites on his face. If you disagree, then explain the origin of these serious wounds.
3. I did not assume, but I read in the forensic medical examination that there are traces of blood from the nasal openings. About a broken nose – these are your fantasies.
4. I did not assume, but I read in the forensic medical examination that there is a crack in the skull, plus the divergence of the skull bones.
5. I did not assume from the photo, but I read in the forensic medical examination that. the brain has the form of a shapeless mass.
My opinion: Rustem died resisting the liquidators.
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You have been posting photo's of Rustem's frozen face to suggest that he had been so badly beaten that he was unrecognisable. You then suggested he had a broken nose, which he didn't. You've suggested he had a bite to his face, and any pathologist would identify such a wound as a bite, even if they sometimes cannot determine if it was human or animal. And then you're trying to imply that
1. I assumed that Rustem died in a fight, because the photo speaks eloquently about it: the face is swollen, a hematoma on the face, a swollen eye.
2. I assumed that Rustem had dog bites on his face. If you disagree, then explain the origin of these serious wounds.
3. I did not assume, but I read in the forensic medical examination that there are traces of blood from the nasal openings. About a broken nose – these are your fantasies.
4. I did not assume, but I read in the forensic medical examination that there is a crack in the skull, plus the divergence of the skull bones.
5. I did not assume from the photo, but I read in the forensic medical examination that. the brain has the form of a shapeless mass.
My opinion: Rustem died resisting the liquidators.
You are the "truther" who fantasises that the KGB would take seriously rumours a group of young hikers were going to defect from central Russia during a perilous winter hike, and with only several week's worth of food, and so they headed out there to brutally murder them all in a kangaroo court. To bolster this you look for any evidence of attack, and if you cannot find it you will manufacture it.
In post 17, unless a translation error, you mentioned Rustem's broken nose. That's why I quoted the pathologist stating his nose was straight. He would see the blood and manipulate the nose with his fingers to see if it was fractured. He did not have access to x-ray.
Elsewhere you've suggested, in order to explain the difference between the frozen and unfrozen appearance of Rustem, that the unfrozen photo's have been doctored with Photoshop, that they do not match the originals. But they are taken from the resources at this site, and they will originate from the Hibina files.
When a man is found dead with his face in the snow his face will have snow and any crud stuck to it, and when his body has thawed and perhaps his face has been wiped over, he will look very different and what may have appeared as a bite will have gone. This, logically, is why the autopsy does not mention any bite.
You've then implied that Rustem's brain was found to be an unshapen mass because he had been beaten about the head, as if his skull caved in all over and his brain was pulped. Rustem had one fracture to his skull, and haemorrhage to his temporal muscles on either side. This is what the pathologist said of Rustem's skull:
"There is a bone fracture from the left temporal bone along the direction of the upper forward area of the lobular bone with dehiscence of 0.1 cm and a length of up to 6 cm. The fracture is 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture. In addition to this, there is a discrepancy in the joint temporal-parietal suture on the left and right /post-mortem/. The dura mater is bluish in color, and its vessels are slightly filled with blood. There was 75 cm3 of bloody liquid under the dura mater. The pia is cloudy and red green in color. The brain matter appears as an unformed mass that is green red in color with undifferentiated contours of the ventricles, as well as the white and grey matter. In the upper area of the left pyramid there is hemorrhaging under the left bone plate with a size of 0.3 x 0.4 cm. The bones of the skull base are whole."
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From my understanding, there is swelling from freezing, the eyes will bulge and since his brain had froze and the been thawed, the consistency of the brain matter will have changed. As per case studies of frozen people and hypothermia. These are some facts that we do know occur .
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Rustem has definitely fallen!!! The question that interests us is what made him drop??? It is unlikely that a person will fall by himself and stay there. Something must have knocked it down. The most logical answer is that the coercive force hits Him from behind on his left temple and He falls to the ground very quickly! Of course, a human can do that too. But if a human did that, he would have to shoot again to make sure he was dead. But there is only one hit. No continuation. This excludes the human element.
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Rustem has definitely fallen!!! The question that interests us is what made him drop??? It is unlikely that a person will fall by himself and stay there. Something must have knocked it down. The most logical answer is that the coercive force hits Him from behind on his left temple and He falls to the ground very quickly! Of course, a human can do that too. But if a human did that, he would have to shoot again to make sure he was dead. But there is only one hit. No continuation. This excludes the human element.
Leaving an unconscious person not dressed for the elements would do that as well, especially out in the middle of no where. If the person was an expert, they would know it was a killing blow, so they didn't need to shoot them.
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Rustem has definitely fallen!!! The question that interests us is what made him drop??? It is unlikely that a person will fall by himself and stay there. Something must have knocked it down. The most logical answer is that the coercive force hits Him from behind on his left temple and He falls to the ground very quickly! Of course, a human can do that too. But if a human did that, he would have to shoot again to make sure he was dead. But there is only one hit. No continuation. This excludes the human element.
Leaving an unconscious person not dressed for the elements would do that as well, especially out in the middle of no where. If the person was an expert, they would know it was a killing blow, so they didn't need to shoot them.
The odds of a master martial artist going there are very, very low. And even if he's gone, he can't be 100% sure he's dead. So no matter how skilled you are, you can't be sure that a person dies with a single hit. After 10 minutes, he may revive and move into the forest(?) This is a small possibility. That's why the blow to Zina's back, which broke her spine, must have been done. So that he could never get up and run away again... He wanted to make sure that whatever killed them was dead
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The discussion of "how" Rustem died must be taken with other evidence to determine "why" he died (or why he had to die). We understand that all man to man violence can only be inferred, not proven. We understand that weather related conditions and post morten changes can also be inferred, with strong clinical evidence. However, the elephant in the room is still why he and others were out there at all. After 60 years, we are no closer to the truth. That said, the one constant in the entire mystery is the Russian winter, not Mansi, not geologists, nor military, nor convicts. I believe the hikers were driven from their tent to find warmth and shelter. They were afraid. Afraid of infra sound, aerial detonation, manor beast, no. I think it was a weather induced tragedy precipitated by a slab slide.
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After 60 years, we are no closer to the truth. That said, the one constant in the entire mystery is the Russian winter, not Mansi, not geologists, nor military, nor convicts.
lol2 Russian Russian winter is terrible to the inhabitants of California or Miami, the French army of Napoleon Russian winter was deadly scary.. Russian Russian tourists who grew up in the Urals and regularly went on harsh hikes, the Russian winter could not serve as a reason for mass death.
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Суровая РУССКАЯ ЗИМА HARSH RUSSIAN WINTER
(https://i.ibb.co/94Y56JT/3486fe15f5e2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/J78FVQp/26f8b5fde4ea.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/).
(https://i.ibb.co/mbv6fdg/2512f85942d3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjdTIukT_Ns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjdTIukT_Ns)
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More about how the harsh Russian winter could ruin tourists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaMhKdAylfY&t=45s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaMhKdAylfY&t=45s)
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I think the fundamental difference here is one of time. Some people enjoy the shock of an icy dip in the water. A very few spend years learning how to monitor their core temperature and endure periods of cold. I am impressed by both. The DP9 were not in this elite company. They worked and studied within buildings and they dressed warmly when outside. It is arguable some cut clothes from others to keep warm in a losing battle with the elements. Most significantly, their exposure to the Russian winter was measured in days, not minutes.
The human bravery that is demonstrated by extreme challenges is a testament to the human spirit. It makes life more than just daily existence. However, it is the element of risk inherent in the activities that is compelling. In some challenges, either side can retire from the challenge by " tapping out". Not so with Nature. When the DP9 left the tent on 1079, they had three choices. They were: (1) stay (2) make for the woods (3) make for the cache. Each choice is a race against time. They chose option 2, but underestimated both the cold and the distance. It was a harsh game with dire consequences.