Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tim on January 18, 2020, 06:17:28 AM
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It’s pretty clear that this theory has to start by determining why they left their belongings..This logical approach Is usually dismissed because any theory that has mentioned,a snow slide, has been contaminated. However no one has brought to light that gale force winds could easily have moved a section of snow gravity could not have on it's own. It stands to reason that this may have happened. After the first cave in they had to cut themselves out, once they were out, the wind pushed the remaining section of snow wall onto the tent burying the needed supplies to survive. Dressed only in tent clothes. THEY ARE NOW ON DEATHS CLOCK. They can barely hear each other and their hands are starting to freeze trying to dig out there supplies. 10 minuets have gone by and they are feeling the effects of exposure. Now a decision has to be made because they need heat immediately, not gloves or boots, They have matches, they are traveling as fast as they can against the wind, this is not a purposeful slow decent....After a few weeks the raised footprints emerge and the snow on the tent has been blown away......I know this may seem far fetched, but it is not as far fetched as other theories....This explains why they left without their gear...Note: This was a bad tent in always need of repair...they had to make sure the tent was protected from the high winds that were starting..and they were well dressed to do this, Someone even snapped a couple of photos of this....no worries...This is a logical theory and not an emotional theory...but it still could be wrong which would not surprise me...
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It's a fair scenario. Given there are many alternative assumptions, can it fit in the missing tongue and the need to climb five metres up a rugged tree? I think there is merit in this scenario you describe. Would they really beat the life out of each other? Possible. But one of them must therefore survived the battle Royale and died of the cold.
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Right when you leave off from your original theory a new one emerges causing you to go back to it as I just did with Holmgren's theory. I always have said that the Hikers built an additional snow wall for added protection and two of the hiker's went out to the bathroom and unintentionally dislodged it onto the tent, explaining the chunks of snow found on the tent. Retreat to the tree line ,build a fire, and asses the tent in the day time. Holmgren said" they put snow on the tent from keeping it from blowing away and return in the morning" Logical. Either they fought at the shelter because of a disagreement to leave at such a late hour or at the cedar tree to where they punched out Igor for putting them in this situation... The snowpack, water intrusion and gravity I have always said caused the crushing injuries, Holmgren nailed it by saying their snow wall collapsed onto them creating a snap shot of their deaths...It was hard to go against the reports, but I think this is a more likely ending to this mystery. The Holmgren documentary is amazing and plausible.
Why retreat to the tree line without your shoes and outer clothing?
Regards
Star man
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It's a fair scenario. Given there are many alternative assumptions, can it fit in the missing tongue and the need to climb five metres up a rugged tree? I think there is merit in this scenario you describe. Would they really beat the life out of each other? Possible. But one of them must therefore survived the battle Royale and died of the cold.
With respect to the possibility that their injuries were caused by the collapsing snow in the den you make a good point. If they were crushed under the snow, how would scavengers be able to get at them to take eyes and tongue?
Regards
Star man
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Excellent point, Considering the human body is 96% water, and having a continuous supply of water flowing , plus , the time in the water, eyes ,tounge and skin ( Soft Tissues)don't stand a chance against the elements..I'm a termite inspector, we also list wood destroying organisms ,such as fungus, left unchecked will turn a 2x4 into mush until the water source is corrected...I believe the other bodies left exposed were picked at by critters.. It was an amazing revelation to me that ,Holmgren ,made the Incredible revelation that Luda was climbing back into the snow cave right when it collapsed...Then the bodies slid around with the snow pact and eventually into the stream..
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Holmgrens theory about the wind lacks one important clue, Holmgren says and I’m paraphrasing, the wind and the extreme temperature was destroying the tent. Then they would not of needed to of cut the tent. What I have always contended was there was a protective snow wall cave-in which would make one think of an avalanche.
When it collapsed it hurt and stunned them which makes sense, this is where the knives were taken out and the tent was cut...A interesting note that always gets over looked was the tent was modified to make it twice the size...This tent was never intended to be up on the mountain,exposed to Gale force winds...This was a substandard tent, “ Full of holes and tares that always needed amending....
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Precisely, why leave anything of life saving value behind.? They panicked and gambeled on making it to the trees.. Essentially they swam to far away from thier life boat..Referring back to the tent photo, there are chunks of snow sitting on the tent that can be measured against other objects. The two photos of them digging out a place to set up the tent shows a difference in elevation. Meaning the exterior snow pack is higher than the interior floor of the tent which makes it a faulty grade. Which one needs to stay out of the gale force winds. Extra snow may have been added to the exterior snow pack for extra protection..This snow could of slipped off and onto the tent causing the bruising to Zinas side and minor head injuries.The bodies absorbed the brunt of this slide protecting any objects laying around from being crushed. This happened all in one split second, they were covered and exposed to the deadly wind....sorry for the long winded answer...
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We've been discussing this on the Gravity wind thread for several weeks? Granted it's gone off topic...
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Any number of theories have merit. None are perfect (then we wouldn't be having this discussion, right?). They all have important gaps. But I support the idea of a gale force wind (see the Gravity Wind thread) that was forceful enough to dislodge the tent (at least that's what the group believed). The tent was hardly secure, having been tied to skis and ski poles. The group needed more protection immediately, and so their ill-fated trek to the trees below. A snow wall in front of the tent is a new twist and maybe it was built. But if it collapsed onto the tent, wouldn't the base remain in place and be visible to those who came to look for the group? And if you're going to take the time and trouble to build a snow wall, why not just pack everything up and move down to the trees in the first place?
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Absolutely correct about they needed protection immediately, Holmgren says “ they covered the tent with snow to secure it from blowing away, The photo shows chunks of snow on the tent, even Josh Gates pointed this out. For sure it would not be a conventional snow wall...Observe the 2 photos of them digging out the tent, the exterior snow pack , where the skis and backpacks are located are higher than the interior of the tent floor causing a natural wall.. What’s never been reported, to my knowledge, are the skis that have been stuck into the ground, may have inadvertently fractured a snow slab the tourists never realized was there that, eventually crashed down on top of them.. My eye is telling me that the photos of them digging out the area to set up Their tent, is not, the same area where they found the tent , Unless the tourist happened upon a false wall of snow that eventually slipped..then the gale force wind blew Most of that wall away....Even though this theory could be ridiculous, but I agree with you wholeheartedly on your theories.
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Holmgren doesn't explain why they left the tent without dressing for the journey, particularly without their valenki = felt boots.
The first test of any DPI theory is that it has to explain why they fled the tent half dressed and felt unable to return to collect more clothing.
Any theory that can't is a non starter, a dud, nada.
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Some theories require so many steps to happen before the group even leaves the tent. For example, the exploded missile theory requires that a missile be fired on the night of Feb. 1 during a limited window of time. Then, in the vast expanse of Siberia, it has to fly nearly over the heads of the group. Then it has to explode at just the right time and height. Otherwise the missile fuel would be dispersed or fall harmlessly to the ground. If some sort of documentation can ever be found to at least confirm the launch and path of the missile, this explanation might very be what happened.
I like much simpler explanations such as something happened with the tent. A sudden movement of snow like Tim says may have panicked the group into believing that they were about to slide down the slope along with their tent. Or a sudden snow hurricane led them to think that their tent, coats, shoes, etc. were about to blow away. How rational can anyone be under such brutal weather? They're not thinking about coats, gloves and boots; they're thinking about surviving whatever sudden, potentially deadly occurrence they faced.
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Precisely, why leave anything of life saving value behind.? They panicked and gambeled on making it to the trees.. Essentially they swam to far away from thier life boat..Referring back to the tent photo, there are chunks of snow sitting on the tent that can be measured against other objects. The two photos of them digging out a place to set up the tent shows a difference in elevation. Meaning the exterior snow pack is higher than the interior floor of the tent which makes it a faulty grade. Which one needs to stay out of the gale force winds. Extra snow may have been added to the exterior snow pack for extra protection..This snow could of slipped off and onto the tent causing the bruising to Zinas side and minor head injuries.The bodies absorbed the brunt of this slide protecting any objects laying around from being crushed. This happened all in one split second, they were covered and exposed to the deadly wind....sorry for the long winded answer...
What about Rustem's boot. This is a key clue. He grabbed and put one boot on then dashed out of the tent leaving the other behind. Why would he do this? If he had time for one boot, why not put the other on too?
One other thing. There are reports that a jacket was found about 10 metres from the tent. What was it doing there? If they took it from the tent why then drop it?
Just some further factors for you to think about.
Regards
Star man
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Some theories require so many steps to happen before the group even leaves the tent. For example, the exploded missile theory requires that a missile be fired on the night of Feb. 1 during a limited window of time. Then, in the vast expanse of Siberia, it has to fly nearly over the heads of the group. Then it has to explode at just the right time and height. Otherwise the missile fuel would be dispersed or fall harmlessly to the ground. If some sort of documentation can ever be found to at least confirm the launch and path of the missile, this explanation might very be what happened.
I like much simpler explanations such as something happened with the tent. A sudden movement of snow like Tim says may have panicked the group into believing that they were about to slide down the slope along with their tent. Or a sudden snow hurricane led them to think that their tent, coats, shoes, etc. were about to blow away. How rational can anyone be under such brutal weather? They're not thinking about coats, gloves and boots; they're thinking about surviving whatever sudden, potentially deadly occurrence they faced.
The hikers were experienced and would know the risks of leaving the tent without shoes, boots or cold weather clothing. They would know that leaving the way they did was suicide and would have not left without their gear if they thought there was any way they could retrieve it safely. Whatever the reason they left they thought their lives were in immediate and significant danger. Also see previous post about Rustem's one boot and the jacket found not far from the tent.
Regards
Star man
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There is a remote possibility the other boot could not be located in the chaos because, like other items, they were buried under snow that made its way into the tent. The rescuers made it sound like they were expecting guests for tea, The lack of clothing on the hikers is the evidence snow had made its way into parts of the tent, covering their clothes. A choice had to be made immediately, stay at the tent, dig out the clothes, shake the snow off, put the articles back on, find the needle and thread, thread the needle, sew the tent ,then remove the snow from within the tent in gale force winds. Why were there not photos of the interior of the tent when first discovered.? Show me pictures of the chocolate, the boots that were just out in the open or placed neatly in a corner. We humans cannot equate gale force winds in deadly sub zero weather. It only takes minutes to die without adequate clothing.
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There is a remote possibility the other boot could not be located in the chaos because, like other items, they were buried under snow that made its way into the tent. The rescuers made it sound like they were expecting guests for tea, The lack of clothing on the hikers is the evidence snow had made its way into parts of the tent, covering their clothes. A choice had to be made immediately, stay at the tent, dig out the clothes, shake the snow off, put the articles back on, find the needle and thread, thread the needle, sew the tent ,then remove the snow from within the tent in gale force winds. Why were there not photos of the interior of the tent when first discovered.? Show me pictures of the chocolate, the boots that were just out in the open or placed neatly in a corner. We humans cannot equate gale force winds in deadly sub zero weather. It only takes minutes to die without adequate clothing.
Sharavin states there was no snow in the tent when they looked inside.
You kind of make my point. In a gale with freezing conditions you have little time. Therefore leaving without your shoes and clothing is suicide. Why would you do it?
Regards
Star man
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Let me put it another way, is it possible for a tent with gaping holes, that a human can step through, left exposed for weeks in the mountains and not have any snow residuals accumulated on the inside of it? . We know that only a gale force wind can allow for the making of a raised footprint which means the winds did not die down anytime soon...On the face value of it, Sharavins statement is inconsistent given the condition the tent was left in. If I fill an ice tray half way and put it in the freezer and then ask someone to see if there are any ice cubes left in the tray and they only look in and not pull the tray out they wont see that there are cubes but only half full. Bad example, but my line of thinking is why wouldn't Sharavin at least say that there was a light dusting of snow because its impossible for there not have been any snow which is misleading and conjures up images of them sitting around having, hot chocolate, which was impossible because the stove wasn't set up.. Best ,Tim
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Some years back I did a very crude example showing the difference of height elevations. These photos do not match up to where the tent was found.
(https://i.ibb.co/yV276Pz/1455177503.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/VL54xNy/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D1T2YbX)
(https://i.ibb.co/nn29ssR/12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JyLVRRC)
error 45 iphone 6 (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/fdsQzHz/938555.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yxQRrR)
truth poem (https://poetandpoem.com/truth)
I realize that the first photo was the wrong photo, it has been altered, my apologies. thanks
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Let me put it another way, is it possible for a tent with gaping holes, that a human can step through, left exposed for weeks in the mountains and not have any snow residuals accumulated on the inside of it? . We know that only a gale force wind can allow for the making of a raised footprint which means the winds did not die down anytime soon...On the face value of it, Sharavins statement is inconsistent given the condition the tent was left in. If I fill an ice tray half way and put it in the freezer and then ask someone to see if there are any ice cubes left in the tray and they only look in and not pull the tray out they wont see that there are cubes but only half full. Bad example, but my line of thinking is why wouldn't Sharavin at least say that there was a light dusting of snow because its impossible for there not have been any snow which is misleading and conjures up images of them sitting around having, hot chocolate, which was impossible because the stove wasn't set up.. Best ,Tim
Why would Sharavin lie about the snow in the tent? I think he suggests that the damaged side of the tent was covered by the good side preventing snow getting in.
Regards
Star man
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Another potential problem with the den collapse causing the injuries or slow compression due to the buildup of snow: Kolevatov was found embracing Semyon. Kolevatov did not have significant chest trauma. How can this be explained?
Thibo’s head injury is a significant but localised injury. I don’t think a snow collapse or snow pressure could explain such a localised injury?
Regards
Star man
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Totally makes sense if it were under normal winter conditions, but I can see that if the Gale force winds forced the good side down it would stay down..good point.
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In regards to the injuries to the 4 in the den. Much like a tornado which leaves the whole neighborhood destroyed and left a few houses untouched. Given where each person in the den was situated everyone sustained a different injury...In the one photo that was generated in blue by an outside company. The above photo looking down on the four shows the three men with Luda on the rocks, My very first impression was because there is that space in-between the men I originally thought that the men died first and Luda crawled over them because they were dead and served no more useful porpoise in conserving heat. But now after reading Holmgrens theory, it appears that Luda left the den to go to the bathroom and on her way back in it collapsed on half of her.,Like a melting glacier, it moves grinding up whatever lies in it's path. It was this image alone when reading Holmgrens theory that got me away from the murder theory...again...What would say to, if he was trying to write in the diary, it would that mean that there was some day light in order to see what he was writing and the disaster struck.
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We've been discussing this on the Gravity wind thread for several weeks? Granted it's gone off topic...
New Members should read up on ALL the older posts etc, otherwise its going to get very repetitive.
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Another potential problem with the den collapse causing the injuries or slow compression due to the buildup of snow: Kolevatov was found embracing Semyon. Kolevatov did not have significant chest trauma. How can this be explained?
Thibo’s head injury is a significant but localised injury. I don’t think a snow collapse or snow pressure could explain such a localised injury?
Regards
Star man
It's explained on my ravine deaths thread?
(https://i.ibb.co/vQm149h/IMG-20190327-212302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnfrMpB)
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Interesting theory, I'll need to absorb this.
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I still struggle with the concept of a snow den. The tent was placed in an area that had been dug out in daylight by nine well dressed and equipped people working as a team with the prospect of dinner. Fast forward several hours and there are no longer nine, they are poorly dressed and have no equipment. It just isn't possible for them to dig bare handed deep enough to create an ice wall that could fall on them.
Also if they left the tent but not under armed guard, why not head for the cache as a starting point for initial assembly and situation assessment.
My apologies if I am in the wrong thread. I am new to this forum and forums generally. And i have a windows 10 phone.
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Struggles are part of this process. Simply the Photos show they were setting up next to an elevated surface for protection and there is snow on that elevated surface. Because the tent was in poor condition and was two tents sewn together it was never meant for the slopes and out in the open, they added more snow and compacted it because this is what you do. Mountaineering 101. See the two photos of them setting up the tent. No worries and someone is taking photos..Eventually to much snow accumulated on the wall, with the gale winds and gravity it only one section of the wall dislodged . After they had cut themselves out, the other section of the wall collapsed cutting off access to the tent. The decision to go to the trees and start a fire was quick or they would of never made it to the forest if they spent to much time at the tent...This may be wrong but its the first logical answer that I have read to why they left the tent. But I have changed my mind before.
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I still struggle with the concept of a snow den. The tent was placed in an area that had been dug out in daylight by nine well dressed and equipped people working as a team with the prospect of dinner. Fast forward several hours and there are no longer nine, they are poorly dressed and have no equipment. It just isn't possible for them to dig bare handed deep enough to create an ice wall that could fall on them.
Also if they left the tent but not under armed guard, why not head for the cache as a starting point for initial assembly and situation assessment.
My apologies if I am in the wrong thread. I am new to this forum and forums generally. And i have a windows 10 phone.
Not so, they cut the poles that formed the den bed with a knife, so they had a knife to cut blocks of snow, poles to dig with and cloth to carry away spoil. Some pieces were discarded on the top of the ravine snow as they would have been soaking wet after use and of no use as covers for seats.
The cache was further away and probably impossible to reach in the dark. Plus it offered no advantage. Just lots of food a pair of skis and a mandolin. In the missile theory they had a good plan, head for the forest, light a fire, leave a flashlight as a beacon on a ridge and hopefully return sooner rather than later. But something went wrong and three didn't make it (probably blinded) and Yuri k arrived burnt. Yuri D stayed in the tree calling out to the lost three until hypothermia got him, Yuri k having already died of shock. Then they extinguished the fire (according to the rescue group there was no reason for it not to continue burning so the assumption is it was extinguished) and setup the den. Semyon was found holding his notebook and pen so it's plausible that they survived there until dawn until something crushed them presumed to be a tracked vehicle.
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Some interesting food for thought. Am i right in saying you refer to ski poles that we're cut? Perhaps grabbed on the way out of the tent. I assumed from the"den" photo the four sitting areas were pine cones/branches on thicker branches. A bit like a small raft you would lash together.
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I might add the image of a yeti chasing them only to be met with the sweet sounds of a mandolin would be fairly pythonesque.
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Some interesting food for thought. Am i right in saying you refer to ski poles that we're cut? Perhaps grabbed on the way out of the tent. I assumed from the"den" photo the four sitting areas were pine cones/branches on thicker branches. A bit like a small raft you would lash together.
No the "poles" were cut from saplings near the den (so they had a knife). The remnants being clearly visible to the rescuers. The poles formed the base of the raft on which the seats were built from twigs finished with scraps of cloth. N.B. the construction of the raft is to some extent conjecture because it was found in a wrecked condition due to the snow in the ravine having "travelled" (obeying gravity like a glacier does). The case files state that the bodies were found 6 metres downstream from the den but some rescuers (Askenadzi) dispute this stating it was 1metre.
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I might add the image of a yeti chasing them only to be met with the sweet sounds of a mandolin would be fairly pythonesque.
Essential expedition equipment - "Music to serenade a killer yeti, Vol 1 - 10" .
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Thanks. That's a helpful description and explanation. Therefore with enough time and determined effort a den could have been fashioned to act as a shelter /hide
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If only they had chosen a double bass instead.
In all seriousness though, is there much truth in the finding of the military puttee or has this been explained? The den/gulley report contained reference to at least one. Would this be something a group member would wear as part of their gear?
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Thanks. That's a helpful description and explanation. Therefore with enough time and determined effort a den could have been fashioned to act as a shelter /hide
They had an expert at hand in Semyon and Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket suggesting he was warm enough, suggesting they were in the den.
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If only they had chosen a double bass instead.
In all seriousness though, is there much truth in the finding of the military puttee or has this been explained? The den/gulley report contained reference to at least one. Would this be something a group member would wear as part of their gear?
It did exist but hasn't been explained. Could be a perfectly innocent piece of kit of course that one of the group carried. Yudin couldn't have known about every item carried by every member.
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So a collapsed den could be a scenario. Two by the tree die of cold, and two of the three found on the slope also die of cold. That leaves one on the slope with the unexplained head injury, Rustem. Was he going up or down.
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So a collapsed den could be a scenario. Two by the tree die of cold, and two of the three found on the slope also die of cold. That leaves one on the slope with the unexplained head injury, Rustem. Was he going up or down.
Lets take Rustem first. He suffered head injuries and internal bleeding. Whatever the cause of this, it implies some very rough activity. Maybe he fell, maybe he was attacked. Whatever it was it doesn't fit with (imo) with his cap being perfectly in place on his head! Surely someone put it there as a kindness after his trauma forced him to lie down? Also whether Rustem died of cold or internal bleeding is an open question imo.
Yuri D died of cold but whether Yuri K did is imo open. Hypothermia is slow shutting down and i don't see that fitting with holding skin in your mouth for many minutes.
Igor clearly died of cold (full bladder) but Zinaida is less certain imo.
It's a good fit with the missile theory that Zinaida, Igor and Rustem had lost vision to some extent.
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Assuming they weren't at gun point during the tent exit - perhaps a missile explosion or even ice wall collapse. Had they gone to the cache, they would have had a mandolin to burn, spare valenki boots size 41, and spare skis to wear with the boots. As well as what ever materials were covering the goods. Someone could have gone for help at first light. If they pooled all their Remaing stuff, someone could have survived till morning and skied out. They may have died trying. Yes they had nothing to gain by going to the cache but everything to lose.
The cache was the only place for many miles in any direction that had any familiarity, and hope.
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Assuming they weren't at gun point during the tent exit - perhaps a missile explosion or even ice wall collapse. Had they gone to the cache, they would have had a mandolin to burn, spare valenki boots size 41, and spare skis to wear with the boots. As well as what ever materials were covering the goods. Someone could have gone for help at first light. If they pooled all their Remaing stuff, someone could have survived till morning and skied out. They may have died trying. Yes they had nothing to gain by going to the cache but everything to lose.
The cache was the only place for many miles in any direction that had any familiarity, and hope.
You definitely do not leave your valenki behind because of an ice wall collapse.
They were quite familiar with the forest and it was much nearer. So it was the best plan get down there and build a big fire. There is no wind in the shelter of the forest so no windchill. Lots of fuel for the fire (although much of it green sapling wood, hence the preference for the cedar).
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The main website also refers to fire wood (chopped), medical supplies and a torch being located in the labaz or cache. Surely a better start than nothing. Perhaps they were disorientated and went in search of the cache but entered the wrong tree line. Some diagrams show the cedar equidistant from the tent as potential cache locations. This, climb the cedar and look for your stuff. Also socks logged in the cache as items.
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Maybe a map like this is part of the problem :-
(https://i.ibb.co/72S0DgY/Dyatlov-Pass-map.png) (https://ibb.co/V2LkGHj)
The location of the tent is incorrect. It's actually close to the white cross on the left hand side of "Kolmogorova". That white cross is approx 1 mile to the cedar.
Look how near the tree line is and the shelter of the forest from wind chill.
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I'm not sure the plan was to build a fire large enough to keep everyone warm. Seems like it was built in some haste in an effort to keep Yuri D and Yuri K alive. The wound to Slobodin's head is hard to understand. Could he have fallen going down or back up the slope and struck his head on a rock just under the snow?
And I've always been confused about why Dyatlov's coat was found outside the tent? Was he forced to remove it? In the chaos of leaving the tent, did one of the others get it inadvertently wrapped around his or her foot or leg? Did Dyatlov remove it himself because of some type of contamination or danger?
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I'm not sure the plan was to build a fire large enough to keep everyone warm. Seems like it was built in some haste in an effort to keep Yuri D and Yuri K alive. The wound to Slobodin's head is hard to understand. Could he have fallen going down or back up the slope and struck his head on a rock just under the snow?
And I've always been confused about why Dyatlov's coat was found outside the tent? Was he forced to remove it? In the chaos of leaving the tent, did one of the others get it inadvertently wrapped around his or her foot or leg? Did Dyatlov remove it himself because of some type of contamination or danger?
It’s unlikely that Rustem’s head Injury was caused by a fall. He has two directly opposite injuries in the temple region. One is more significant than the other. It is more likely that they were caused by some kind of confrontation. If he had fallen it is more likely that an injury would appear on the back or front of the skull. Two directly opposite is very unlikely.
Dyatlov’s jacket. Did he grab it while leaving the tent and then drop it again for some reason? It’s unlikely he took it off of his own free will. Strangely Rustem only had time to put on a single boot too. Question : is there a pattern there and what does it tell us?
I think you may be correct about the purpose of the fire. That would explain why the fire was hot enough to burn them, but not enough to keep them alive.
Interestingly, the shape of Thibo’s depressed fracture is identical to the shape of the ball of a thumb. A large apes thumb. Also Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries are consistent with being attacked by a large ape. Am not saying there are not other explanations but it is interesting.
Regards
Star man
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Thoughts on torches? One in the cache, the spare. One near the tent switched off but batteries had juice remaining & one half way down the slope switched on but flat batteries. Were there any other light sources other than flames/fire? If not, does anyone have any experience or suggestions how they could achieve what they did outside of the tent, cold and confused? Small cedar tree fire to light sticks with sections of ripped clothes ignited and wrapped on stick end perhaps.
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Thoughts on torches? One in the cache, the spare. One near the tent switched off but batteries had juice remaining & one half way down the slope switched on but flat batteries. Were there any other light sources other than flames/fire? If not, does anyone have any experience or suggestions how they could achieve what they did outside of the tent, cold and confused? Small cedar tree fire to light sticks with sections of ripped clothes ignited and wrapped on stick end perhaps.
It is full of snow. In other words, the snow provides some kind of light. But they still had to get the flashlights. Because it is only two reasons not to get the flashlights in the dark. 1. Either they could not think of taking the horror of the event. 2. There was an unnatural glow around. If the incident occurred during the day, lanterns should be bought considering the night. Or, according to a third option, it is normal for young people not to get the lanterns as they cannot even take their shoes from the tent. But they wore Semyon and Tibo shoes, and they also wore their outerwear. Why did they not take the flashlights (?) Because the lanterns are so vital and important as shoes in a cold dark night. I think there was an artificial light source that illuminated the surroundings.
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As much as I remain unconvinced about that, it would explain quite alot. There are vast numbers of "how did they" questions during this incident but the more thought you lend to this, you really start to wonder just how they managed to do anything constructive in total near darkness.
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I want to think they fell in a ravine/den but isn’t it one of the oddities that it was dug and they weren’t in it?
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Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster. After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air. Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape. The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger.
Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow while in a blizzard with no outer clothing or shoes, gloves etc. They had two choices and neither of them were good. Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed. Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands) would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment.
During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured. The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope. But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong.
It's not a bad theory. Simple and credible.
Regards
Star man
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Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster. After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air. Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape. The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger. So when did they cut the slits along the whole length of the apex of the tent? If it was before why? If it was after then if they had enough space to cut those slits they must have had enough space to collect clothing/footwear?
Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow like digging out a den? while in a blizzard with no outer clothing or shoes, gloves etc. but plenty of ski poles? They had two choices and neither of them were good. Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed. Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands) would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment.
During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured. The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope. But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong. There is little wind in the forest. Contrast the snow covering the two Yuris (1-3cm) with the snow covering Rustem and Zinaida (60-80cm?)
It's not a bad theory. Simple and credible.
Regards
Star man
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Monty, very good questions about the tongue,
Lets start at the labaz, The decision to leave so late in the day was no doubt met with some heated resistance from other members of the party. On the journey up the side of the mountain they are not making good time at all. The other members are even getting angrier, but no sense in shouting the wind will drowned them out.
After the accident at the tent the two Yuri's run ahead to start a fire. When they find how close they actually are to the forest they are now even angrier for Igor to even put them in harms way when they could of waited till first light.
When they finally are all together, fists are thrown directed at Igor for this putting everyone in this situation. In a matter of minuets the girls now screaming get the situation under control.
No one knows what training the medical examiner has in frozen body burning and pooling of blood. easily to see on a hot day in July but maybe not so much in a frozen thawed out body. False positive.
The tongue, The human body is 96% water, and when it has blood and oxygen pumping through it ,though still fragile, can endure a lot. When it is not functioning and is dead it starts to disintegrate.
Luda even though very strong woman, her tongue was very delicate, no match from pressure and continuous water flowing basically through her body now. The tongue is carved out neatly by the water and skin and eyes break down and get removed by the flowing water. Water and wind over century's have carved out the grand canyons and have smoothed out solid rock formations.
The examiner doing his best read the evidence correctly as he saw it but it was incorrect in many ways. A 2020 examination would contradict many of the original findings. Flesh and bone when soft and under pressure will easily break and disappear. The way all suffering the effects of hypothermia. On a normal winter day this would be easily survivable and would make for a good story around the campfires to come.
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Monty, very good questions about the tongue,
Lets start at the labaz, The decision to leave so late in the day was no doubt met with some heated resistance from other members of the party. On the journey up the side of the mountain they are not making good time at all. The other members are even getting angrier, but no sense in shouting the wind will drowned them out. Not so, from the group diary, the decision to camp on the ridge was made the day before on the 31st Jan. - https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary
After the accident at the tent the two Yuri's run ahead to start a fire. When they find how close they actually are to the forest they are now even angrier for Igor to even put them in harms way when they could of waited till first light.
When they finally are all together, fists are thrown directed at Igor for this putting everyone in this situation. In a matter of minuets the girls now screaming get the situation under control.
No one knows what training the medical examiner has in frozen body burning and pooling of blood. easily to see on a hot day in July but maybe not so much in a frozen thawed out body. False positive.
The tongue, The human body is 96% water, and when it has blood and oxygen pumping through it ,though still fragile, can endure a lot. When it is not functioning and is dead it starts to disintegrate.
Luda even though very strong woman, her tongue was very delicate, no match from pressure and continuous water flowing basically through her body now. The tongue is carved out neatly by the water and skin and eyes break down and get removed by the flowing water. Water and wind over century's have carved out the grand canyons and have smoothed out solid rock formations.
The examiner doing his best read the evidence correctly as he saw it but it was incorrect in many ways. A 2020 examination would contradict many of the original findings. Flesh and bone when soft and under pressure will easily break and disappear. The way all suffering the effects of hypothermia. On a normal winter day this would be easily survivable and would make for a good story around the campfires to come.
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Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster. After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air. Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape. The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger. So when did they cut the slits along the whole length of the apex of the tent? If it was before why? If it was after then if they had enough space to cut those slits they must have had enough space to collect clothing/footwear?
Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow like digging out a den? while in a blizzard with no outer clothing or shoes, gloves etc. but plenty of ski poles? They had two choices and neither of them were good. Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed. Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands) would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment.
During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured. The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope. But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong. There is little wind in the forest. Contrast the snow covering the two Yuris (1-3cm) with the snow covering Rustem and Zinaida (60-80cm?)
It's not a bad theory. Simple and credible.
Regards
Star man
There were only three cuts in the case filed that indicate they were made from inside. It's possible the other cuts at the top were made by the search party. Even with ski poles it's unlikely they would be able to remove enough snow before they would lose ability to use their hands.
There is no evidence that a proper den was made. It's unlikely it was a proper den.
Although the wind in the forest would be reduced, it is likely that there would be a fair breeze and significant wind chill.
I'm not ruling out other theories, I'm just saying that Tim's theory is credible. Yes the injuries are strange, but not impossible to explain by natural events.
Regards
Star man
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Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster. After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air. Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape. The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger. So when did they cut the slits along the whole length of the apex of the tent? If it was before why? If it was after then if they had enough space to cut those slits they must have had enough space to collect clothing/footwear?
Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow like digging out a den? while in a blizzard with no outer clothing or shoes, gloves etc. but plenty of ski poles? They had two choices and neither of them were good. Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed. Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands) would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment.
During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured. The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope. But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong. There is little wind in the forest. Contrast the snow covering the two Yuris (1-3cm) with the snow covering Rustem and Zinaida (60-80cm?)
It's not a bad theory. Simple and credible.
Regards
Star man
There were only three cuts in the case filed that indicate they were made from inside. It's possible the other cuts at the top were made by the search party. Even with ski poles it's unlikely they would be able to remove enough snow before they would lose ability to use their hands.
There is no evidence that a proper den was made. It's unlikely it was a proper den.
Although the wind in the forest would be reduced, it is likely that there would be a fair breeze and significant wind chill.
I'm not ruling out other theories, I'm just saying that Tim's theory is credible. Yes the injuries are strange, but not impossible to explain by natural events.
Regards
Star man
Greetings, good fencing with you. The basis for the theory is that Semyon and Nicolai are outside to relieve themselves and push over a snow wall? So we have two well dressed fit men (Nicolai had gloves) with lots of old fashioned ski poles made of bamboo, metal rings attached with straps and a gale force wind which means that to move snow you just have to throw it up into the air and the wind will do the rest. And this "credible" theory is that these two fit well dressed young men cannot move enough snow to allow someone to get back into the tent and retrieve clothing/footwear? How high was this snow wall, 10metres?
There is every evidence that someone made a snow den. The poles were cut nearby, there are fragments of clothing dropped in the snow near the site presumably to be used as seats. There is the clothing associated with the four seat positions that Yudin never challenged as not belonging to the group. They had the expert in Semyon. The rescue party believe that the fire indicated it had been extinguished. There is every indication that they put out the fire and moved to the den, probably built by just Semyon and Nicolai.
1-3cm of snow in 3 weeks is not an indicator of a "fair breeze" imo. More like no breeze. They were ok by the fire and imo the decision to abandon the fire and go underground hints at the same reason that forced them from the tent and prevented a return and singed the young trees at the treeline - noxious chemical vapours.
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Things can get quickly out of control in the conditions they were camping. I don’t necessarily think that it was caused by a snow wall collapse, but possibly a very localised snow slide resulting from destabilising the snow by digging an area for the tent. If there was a snow slide that partially buried the tent with over a tonne of snow then after getting everyone out they would have had minutes to make a decision. While the two well dressed people attempted to dig out the tent the others would quickly become cold and have less chance of survival.
I’m not sure everyone understands how precarious a situation they were in. They were totally dependent on their tent for survival and they pitched in a very risky area.
Even if they had dug out the tent it is likely that those with poor clothing would be suffering the effects of hypothermia and they would still not have a whole tent because they had damaged it when trying to get out. Their hands would become useless very quickly as made clear from Krivo’s frustration in biting his own finger.
Saying that the theory like most others is not without its flaws and questions. Such as why was there a jacket and sneakers not far from the tent.
Regards
Star man
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Things can get quickly out of control in the conditions they were camping. I don’t necessarily think that it was caused by a snow wall collapse, but possibly a very localised snow slide resulting from destabilising the snow by digging an area for the tent. This snow slide didn't disturb the signs of urination? The alpine experts that inspected the tent so no signs of a slide? If there was a snow slide that partially buried the tent with over a tonne of snow then after getting everyone out they would have had minutes to make a decision. While the two well dressed people attempted to dig out the tent the others would quickly become cold and have less chance of survival. So why not leave the well dressed pair up there to dig out the snow and bring everything down when achieved? Why couldn't they return.
WHY DID THEY FLEE THE TENT AREA AND NOT GO BACK EVEN IF WELL DRESSED?
I’m not sure everyone understands how precarious a situation they were in. They were totally dependent on their tent for survival and they pitched in a very risky area.
Even if they had dug out the tent it is likely that those with poor clothing would be suffering the effects of hypothermia and they would still not have a whole tent because they had damaged it when trying to get out. Their hands would become useless very quickly as made clear from Krivo’s frustration in biting his own finger.
Saying that the theory like most others is not without its flaws and questions. Is there a more flawed theory? It's simply the least credible imo. Such as why was there a jacket and sneakers not far from the tent.
Regards
Star man
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Things can get quickly out of control in the conditions they were camping. I don’t necessarily think that it was caused by a snow wall collapse, but possibly a very localised snow slide resulting from destabilising the snow by digging an area for the tent. This snow slide didn't disturb the signs of urination? The alpine experts that inspected the tent so no signs of a slide? If there was a snow slide that partially buried the tent with over a tonne of snow then after getting everyone out they would have had minutes to make a decision. While the two well dressed people attempted to dig out the tent the others would quickly become cold and have less chance of survival. So why not leave the well dressed pair up there to dig out the snow and bring everything down when achieved? Why couldn't they return.
WHY DID THEY FLEE THE TENT AREA AND NOT GO BACK EVEN IF WELL DRESSED?
I’m not sure everyone understands how precarious a situation they were in. They were totally dependent on their tent for survival and they pitched in a very risky area.
Even if they had dug out the tent it is likely that those with poor clothing would be suffering the effects of hypothermia and they would still not have a whole tent because they had damaged it when trying to get out. Their hands would become useless very quickly as made clear from Krivo’s frustration in biting his own finger.
Saying that the theory like most others is not without its flaws and questions. Is there a more flawed theory? It's simply the least credible imo. Such as why was there a jacket and sneakers not far from the tent.
Regards
Star man
Much of the snow was scoured away by the wind, hence the raised foot prints. The traces of urine may have been further away from the stent than the slide.
The tent was covered in snow when found so there must have been localised drifting that could have masked any traces of a slide.
They probably did intend to return in the morning when it was light and the weather had improved, but they didn't long enough to complete their plan and the injuries added complexity to their plight.
The theory would explain the cuts in the tent and how they were made - cutting through the seemed would take time. You would not do this if you were looking for a quick escape.
I think it's a simple and credible theory.
Regards Star man
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If seven people can get out and a tent pole stays erect then one well dressed person with gloves and a ski pole can get back in. You don't walk a mile in -15C/-20C plus huge windchill in your socks instead.
Regards.
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Fair point. Perhaps the two well dressed hikers had already left the scene?
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If seven people can get out and a tent pole stays erect then one well dressed person with gloves and a ski pole can get back in. You don't walk a mile in -15C/-20C plus huge windchill in your socks instead.
Regards.
Ok that is a good challenge to the theory. If the front of the tent was still standing and accessible then they should have been able to retrieve more gear. The shoes/boots were piled up toward the front of the tent they should have been able to retrieve more of them.
Regards
Star man
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If seven people can get out and a tent pole stays erect then one well dressed person with gloves and a ski pole can get back in. You don't walk a mile in -15C/-20C plus huge windchill in your socks instead.
Regards.
Ok that is a good challenge to the theory. If the front of the tent was still standing and accessible then they should have been able to retrieve more gear. The shoes/boots were piled up toward the front of the tent they should have been able to retrieve more of them.
Regards
Star man
kewl1 but a correction, the valenki were found (were you would expect) at the foot of their "beds". Only the ski boots were in the corner.
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I might add the image of a yeti chasing them only to be met with the sweet sounds of a mandolin would be fairly pythonesque.
Many a true word is said in jest as they say. If Man was transported back millions of years on planet Earth he would encounter the most amazing creatures that would make a so called Yeti look tame by comparison. Creatures so scary that they could esaily have come from the imagination of any Science Fiction creator. Except its a FACT. Such creatures did exist.