Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => The stove => Topic started by: Nezza on September 25, 2019, 10:34:58 PM
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In the satirical leaflet found in the tent called 'Evening Otorten',the stove is twice mention. Once asking comically whether 9 people can get by on one stove and a blanket.The other statement is of kolmogorova and doroshenko 'setting a world record' on stove assembly. Its suggested that this document was created on the fateful night of Febuary 1st.
I think that the stove was assembled that night,it was used, and was the reason why the dyatlov group members left the tent in such a weird state of CONFUSION.Think about out it. If the group seriously had no intentions of using the stove,then why would they take it with them on their more tiring final days of the treck,why not leave it in the cache with the other supplies?
Even the packed up disassembled stove could be culprit to smouldering wood embers that can release the odourless,colourless and tasteless gas of carbon monoxide into the tent as they all sleep? Awaking in the night in total darkness with a pounding headache and extremely confused. Its only once they have trekked into oblivion without proper clothing or protection,that that effects from the poisoning begin to subside and their logical actions and desire to survive now kicks in. Although they are now a mile from their tent in near darkness and feeling the full effects from the brutal elements.....
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It’s a simple explanation. But the stove had not been assembled and from what I understand there was no evidence it had been used. They were supposed to spend some cold nights as a part of the level 3 certificate.
One last issue with the stove theory - why would there be so much secrecy around the stove?
Regards
Star man
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It’s a simple explanation. But the stove had not been assembled and from what I understand there was no evidence it had been used. They were supposed to spend some cold nights as a part of the level 3 certificate.
One last issue with the stove theory - why would there be so much secrecy around the stove?
Regards
Star man
I don't think its down to secrecy but more to do with being over looked as a legitimate theory which explains why 9 hikers would leave the safety of the tent ,then try to return to it later like they know their survival depends upon it.Even with a criteria need for their certification,i dont thin they refrain from using it if the conditions were that bad,its not like there is anyone around to see them use it
I like this theory as it should be easily testable ,much more so than other theories. With a set up replica tent and replica stove...it would be interesting to see if smouldering wood can infact create enough carbon monoxide to create disorientation with near lethal levels of the gas. to my knowledge,its never been tested for,which is pretty annoying as it should be easily disprovable if its not the culprit.
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The point I was trying to make but badly is: why would there be so much secrecy over an accident involving a stove? Also why introduce a 3 year ban on travel to the area?
Regards
Star man
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The point I was trying to make but badly is: why would there be so much secrecy over an accident involving a stove? Also why introduce a 3 year ban on travel to the area?
Regards
Star man
The soviet union would apply secrecy to any situation that might make them look incompetent. Since they couldn't fully discover what the deciding factor in the incident was,i would be unthinkable for them to allow a group out a few weeks later and possibly have the same thing happen again.So they basically swept it under the rug and took steps to see that it doesn't happen again.
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The point I was trying to make but badly is: why would there be so much secrecy over an accident involving a stove? Also why introduce a 3 year ban on travel to the area?
Regards
Star man
The soviet union would apply secrecy to any situation that might make them look incompetent. Since they couldn't fully discover what the deciding factor in the incident was,i would be unthinkable for them to allow a group out a few weeks later and possibly have the same thing happen again.So they basically swept it under the rug and took steps to see that it doesn't happen again.
I think you are being to harsh on the USSR. Why would that particular State be any different to any other ! ? And also a faulty stove is hardly likely to drive all those young people out to their certain deaths. They would have made an attempt to get back into the tent rather than walk a mile in extreme weather conditions.
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In the satirical leaflet found in the tent called 'Evening Otorten',the stove is twice mention. Once asking comically whether 9 people can get by on one stove and a blanket.The other statement is of kolmogorova and doroshenko 'setting a world record' on stove assembly. Its suggested that this document was created on the fateful night of Febuary 1st.
I think that the stove was assembled that night,it was used, and was the reason why the dyatlov group members left the tent in such a weird state of CONFUSION.Think about out it. If the group seriously had no intentions of using the stove,then why would they take it with them on their more tiring final days of the treck,why not leave it in the cache with the other supplies?
Even the packed up disassembled stove could be culprit to smouldering wood embers that can release the odourless,colourless and tasteless gas of carbon monoxide into the tent as they all sleep? Awaking in the night in total darkness with a pounding headache and extremely confused. Its only once they have trekked into oblivion without proper clothing or protection,that that effects from the poisoning begin to subside and their logical actions and desire to survive now kicks in. Although they are now a mile from their tent in near darkness and feeling the full effects from the brutal elements.....
Hello
If carbon dioxide escapes, there is a simple solution: come out of the tent and flip it over. Then the CO2 is dispersed and they can take their belongings.
They were certainly not disoriented; after escaping from the tent, they went in coordinated way down the slope to the forest.
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In the satirical leaflet found in the tent called 'Evening Otorten',the stove is twice mention. Once asking comically whether 9 people can get by on one stove and a blanket.The other statement is of kolmogorova and doroshenko 'setting a world record' on stove assembly. Its suggested that this document was created on the fateful night of Febuary 1st.
I think that the stove was assembled that night,it was used, and was the reason why the dyatlov group members left the tent in such a weird state of CONFUSION.Think about out it. If the group seriously had no intentions of using the stove,then why would they take it with them on their more tiring final days of the treck,why not leave it in the cache with the other supplies?
Even the packed up disassembled stove could be culprit to smouldering wood embers that can release the odourless,colourless and tasteless gas of carbon monoxide into the tent as they all sleep? Awaking in the night in total darkness with a pounding headache and extremely confused. Its only once they have trekked into oblivion without proper clothing or protection,that that effects from the poisoning begin to subside and their logical actions and desire to survive now kicks in. Although they are now a mile from their tent in near darkness and feeling the full effects from the brutal elements.....
This is the only theory that explains all the elements of the evidence. You can easily find evidence of carbon monoxide poisoning due to wood burning stoves on the internet. The Mayo Clinic lists the symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning as follows: Dull headache, Weakness, Dizziness, Nausea or vomiting, Shortness of breath, Confusion, Blurred vision, Loss of consciousness.
A state of confusion, dizziness, blurred vision etc could explain why the tent was cut from the inside in a confused attempt to exit. This also could explain the slow or non-panic walking down the hill. There would be no reason to run and some may have been near unconscious so moving very slowly.
So is there evidence they used the stove? From my understanding weather and temperature conditions were extreme on the night of February 1,2. They set-up their tent in the open, no trees or shelter from the wind. I believe it's possible that the wind became too violent for the exhaust pipe of the stove, so they decided to bring in the exhaust pipe and essentially partially pack the stove together leaving hot embers in the stove to continue to help heat the inside of the tent which in turn caused the concentration of carbon monoxide in the tent.
(https://i.ibb.co/TBnFHkZ/Dyatlov-pass-tent-1958-03.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C5XTnzq)
I know some testimony says the stove was in its case and not being used, but is it possible they only assumed that because it had been disassembled? Testimony from V. L. Lebedev states the following:
"There were many items in the tent. Near the entrance of the tent, which seems to have been opened, lay the stove inside its case. The pipes of the latter were inside the stove, which indicates that the stove was not attempted to be taken out , lit although outside the tent on the rear end end in the snow I found a log, undoubtedly intended for the stove."
I speculate how complete the stove was put away and if there may have been ashes inside. One thing we can all agree on is that the testimonies from the various searchers have many inconsistencies and can not be totally relied upon for accuracy, especially when it comes to the stove being used. I can easily see one assuming they didn't use the stove because the exhaust pipes were stacked next to the stove.
The group members with the most severe injuries (mostly broken ribs and fractured skull) can be explained by them falling through a layer of icy snow that had covered part of the ravine, falling to the bottom of the ravine which could have been very hard, even with rocks as it was later found out to be a water flow area for melting snow. I think it's likely two of them fell together one body landed on the other exacerbating the injuries and Dubinina may have fallen on the rock where her body was found with many broken ribs. They believe she died very quickly after those injuries . Lastly, I think the radiation on the 3 pieces of clothing can be adequately explained by the work environments of the 2 group members who owned the clothing.
Brad
Edit added 6/10/20:
After additional reading especially through the notebooks in the case files and interviews with the first searchers to find the tent, I'm more convinced (but not completely) that the group likely did not use the stove before the event that led them outside. Thus, I have become more interested in hurricane or katabatic winds or essentially high winds as an explanation. The initial searchers leaned toward this explanation noting hurricane as the likely explanation in their notes. The wind blew the bodies down the hill and a few of them were attempting to return to the tent in a straight line to the tent. They noted that their only problem with this theory was why didn't the wind take at least some of their belongings from inside the tent down the hill with them. I might add also, why didn't such a powerful wind break or dislodge any of the ski poles that were stuck around the tent. I will head to the katabatic wind section for more discussion.
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The point I was trying to make but badly is: why would there be so much secrecy over an accident involving a stove? Also why introduce a 3 year ban on travel to the area?
Regards
Star man
The soviet union would apply secrecy to any situation that might make them look incompetent. Since they couldn't fully discover what the deciding factor in the incident was,i would be unthinkable for them to allow a group out a few weeks later and possibly have the same thing happen again.So they basically swept it under the rug and took steps to see that it doesn't happen again.
I think you are being to harsh on the USSR. Why would that particular State be any different to any other ! ? And also a faulty stove is hardly likely to drive all those young people out to their certain deaths. They would have made an attempt to get back into the tent rather than walk a mile in extreme weather conditions.
@ Sarapuk - again you have shown your lack of knowledge & understanding- Carbon Monoxide poisoning causes severe to profound confusion, not to mention a number of other very debilitating medical issues.
Google it and see for yourself - your phenomenal level of incompetence precedes you Sir
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The point I was trying to make but badly is: why would there be so much secrecy over an accident involving a stove? Also why introduce a 3 year ban on travel to the area?
Regards
Star man
The soviet union would apply secrecy to any situation that might make them look incompetent. Since they couldn't fully discover what the deciding factor in the incident was,i would be unthinkable for them to allow a group out a few weeks later and possibly have the same thing happen again.So they basically swept it under the rug and took steps to see that it doesn't happen again.
I think you are being to harsh on the USSR. Why would that particular State be any different to any other ! ? And also a faulty stove is hardly likely to drive all those young people out to their certain deaths. They would have made an attempt to get back into the tent rather than walk a mile in extreme weather conditions.
@ Sarapuk - again you have shown your lack of knowledge & understanding- Carbon Monoxide poisoning causes severe to profound confusion, not to mention a number of other very debilitating medical issues.
Google it and see for yourself - your phenomenal level of incompetence precedes you Sir
Well I dont resort to insulting other Members on this Forum. People who resort to such measures have usually lost the argument anyway. So if you want to make comments, keep the insulting bits out of it. If Carbon Monoxide Poisoning was the cause of the Dyatlov Group abandoning their Tent in the way that they did, it must have been one hell of a dosage. And why no signs in the bodies in the Autopsies ! ?
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Hi, I am Estonian and our ancesters lived in the farmhouses without chimneys. They kiln-dried grain, smoke helped to cure grain from pests. Their houses were often full of smoke, but they had learned to live with it. And that`s why Estonian folkore is full of fairys, elves, ghosts etc. Some scientists think that living in that kind of houses caused mild carbon monoxide poisoning sometimes, which in turn caused hallucinations.
I noticed that Dyatlov had self-constructed stove. That alone doesn`t sound good, even today there are carbon monoxide poisoning accidents due to amateur stove building or repairing. Maybe the stove or it`s chimney leaked carbon monoxide and other gases. For the second, I read from diary that they sewed the hole in the tent. Maybe that hole worked as a last ventilation hole and when it was closed, the poisoning become possible.
So maybe they got mild carbon monoxide poisoning, some of them saw "ghost", then panic broke out and they run outside. As far as I know the carbon monoxide wont leave your blood so easily even in fresh air, so the "ghost" didn`t disappear and people run futher, then some of them falled and got injuries.
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Hi, I am Estonian and our ancesters lived in the farmhouses without chimneys. They kiln-dried grain, smoke helped to cure grain from pests. Their houses were often full of smoke, but they had learned to live with it. And that`s why Estonian folkore is full of fairys, elves, ghosts etc. Some scientists think that living in that kind of houses caused mild carbon monoxide poisoning sometimes, which in turn caused hallucinations.
I noticed that Dyatlov had self-constructed stove. That alone doesn`t sound good, even today there are carbon monoxide poisoning accidents due to amateur stove building or repairing. Maybe the stove or it`s chimney leaked carbon monoxide and other gases. For the second, I read from diary that they sewed the hole in the tent. Maybe that hole worked as a last ventilation hole and when it was closed, the poisoning become possible.
So maybe they got mild carbon monoxide poisoning, some of them saw "ghost", then panic broke out and they run outside. As far as I know the carbon monoxide wont leave your blood so easily even in fresh air, so the "ghost" didn`t disappear and people run futher, then some of them falled and got injuries.
Hell and welcome. Apparently the Stove wasnt used on the night of the Incident. Also no trace of any kind of poisoning in any of the bodies.
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I think, in general, its believed that they didnt use the stove that night..
But, you have a point. That 90 degree angle on the vent pipe is worrisome.
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Hi, I am Estonian and our ancesters lived in the farmhouses without chimneys. They kiln-dried grain, smoke helped to cure grain from pests. Their houses were often full of smoke, but they had learned to live with it. And that`s why Estonian folkore is full of fairys, elves, ghosts etc. Some scientists think that living in that kind of houses caused mild carbon monoxide poisoning sometimes, which in turn caused hallucinations.
Yes, I was in Estonia, and I got to know a little bit about the old way of life of that people. This is characteristic of neighboring countries as well. This method of heating, of course, has its disadvantages, but the constant mild carbon monoxide poisoning was detrimental to the conditions and life expectancy of the people. I understand what you are talking about, but let's deal with the events that interest us.
I noticed that Dyatlov had self-constructed stove. That alone doesn`t sound good, even today there are carbon monoxide poisoning accidents due to amateur stove building or repairing. Maybe the stove or it`s chimney leaked carbon monoxide and other gases. For the second, I read from diary that they sewed the hole in the tent. Maybe that hole worked as a last ventilation hole and when it was closed, the poisoning become possible.
No, starting with this paragraph, I must begin to correct your misconceptions.
1.The furnace they had was homemade. It was a 40 x 40 x 60 cm (15.5 x 15.4 x 23 in) iron box with grate for burning wood and door on the front side. The pipe came out the back side and ran horizontally. The pipe exited the tent through special sleeve made of asbestos, it is mineral fabric made of special natural material. This was done so that the fabric of the tent could not catch fire. Such design of the stove and its installation in the tent has many disadvantages, according to modern concepts, but it was much used at that time for such trips.
2.In the practice of similar trips there was no case that someone was poisoned by carbon monoxide for many reasons. For example, because such tents with the atmosphere have very good exchange of air, as well as because the large temperature difference gives good draft, which is controlled by the duty officer additionally.
3. It is not the task of the forum evaluate this design and application, because we should only deal with what happened to Dyatlov's group, not analyze the equipment.
4.The reason for sewing up the hole that is written about in the diary is very simple. Before this trip, the students were taking exams for their course, and they did not have time prepare the tent well. They got it from their club almost the night before they left, so they had fix it up inside the trip. This hole has no effect on ventilation, if only because they were constantly opening and closing the tent entrance when they were inside and this added to the ventilation as well. It is impossible for large amount of carbon monoxide accumulate in such tent. This is not room with blank walls that have no ventilation to the outside air. They were more afraid that the tent might catch fire.
So maybe they got mild carbon monoxide poisoning, some of them saw "ghost", then panic broke out and they run outside.
I have encountered carbon monoxide buildup on several occasions while traveling. It was only a small concentration (it was well perceived when breathing) but it was only in hunters' huts, where the stationary stove had a poor draft and noticeably smoky. In shawl stoves this is practically uncommon.
Therefore, such reason to run away almost naked for 1.5 km (0.95 mi) is unreal. In such a case (if there was carbon monoxide after all) they would have stopped immediately near the tent, in plenty of good air.
As far as I know the carbon monoxide wont leave your blood so easily even in fresh air, so the "ghost" didn`t disappear and people run futher, then some of them falled and got injuries.
No, this is not the case. Indeed, carbon monoxide dissolves in the blood and blocks part of the surface of person's lungs. But it causes severe mental depression and reluctance move. The condition in the head resembles fog, but the person is very restricted in movement while doing so.
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3. It is not the task of the forum evaluate this design and application, because we should only deal with what happened to Dyatlov's group, not analyze the equipment.
Says who? You?
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3. It is not the task of the forum evaluate this design and application, because we should only deal with what happened to Dyatlov's group, not analyze the equipment.
Says who? You?
What are you talking about. The whole point of a Forum like this is to analyse whatever we can.
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Agreed.. But..That wasnt me saying that.. I was quoting WAB who rudely said that to the newbie..
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Agreed.. But..That wasnt me saying that.. I was quoting WAB who rudely said that to the newbie..
Well I believe analysis is important for anything to do with this Mystery.
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I agree..
Farewell, Alo.. "We hardly knew ye"
Tsk.
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3. It is not the task of the forum evaluate this design and application, because we should only deal with what happened to Dyatlov's group, not analyze the equipment.
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Says who? You?
Yes, I said that.
What is the essence of the complaint?
What is said here that is wrong?
Could you please state it point by point?
They had this particular stove, so there is no point in discussing others. Even if they were better than this one.
I could say a lot of things that were better than theirs, but we shouldn't go off topic.
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Agreed.. But..That wasnt me saying that.. I was quoting WAB who rudely said that to the newbie..
What did you mean by this statement?
Please give me a full quote!
And I want know who you consider as "newbie"?
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Let it go..
But there is a reason there are no new posters here..
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Let it go..
But there is a reason there are no new posters here..
I'm with Dona on this. I like Dona's questions. She / he, raises many awkward points, some may have been answered in the past but Dona is exploring this forum in a new way that personally I like. Took me a while to adapt but it is refreshing.
I'm on the Wolverine concept come avalanche or the winds. Next would be WABs infra sound but not seen any evidence for that. ...
Murder or KGB next but I can't see that due to the remote area.
Yeti, big foot, aliens .....nope
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Thank-You!
( I didnt see that coming grin1)
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Thank-You!
( I didnt see that coming grin1)
In-between your high intellect you have a tiny bit of humour lol4
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Yeah but it doesnt always come across well on the internet :)
Poor Loose Cannon is still pissed off.. But then, he isnt called Loose Cannon for nuthin' :)
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Let it go..
But there is a reason there are no new posters here..
I'm with Dona on this. I like Dona's questions. She / he, raises many awkward points, some may have been answered in the past but Dona is exploring this forum in a new way that personally I like. Took me a while to adapt but it is refreshing.
I'm on the Wolverine concept come avalanche or the winds. Next would be WABs infra sound but not seen any evidence for that. ...
Murder or KGB next but I can't see that due to the remote area.
Yeti, big foot, aliens .....nope
Yes Dona brings something different to this Forum. Not everyone agrees that what he or she brings is any good though.
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Its good.. maybe some just dont like or agree.. People are oddly sensitive regarding their personal theories..
They were lying down when they were injured. Evidence doesnt lie.. and the bodies tell their own stories..
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Let it go..
But there is a reason there are no new posters here..
I'm with Dona on this. I like Dona's questions. She / he, raises many awkward points, some may have been answered in the past but Dona is exploring this forum in a new way that personally I like. Took me a while to adapt but it is refreshing.
I'm on the Wolverine concept come avalanche or the winds. Next would be WABs infra sound but not seen any evidence for that. ...
Murder or KGB next but I can't see that due to the remote area.
Yeti, big foot, aliens .....nope
Yes Dona brings something different to this Forum. Not everyone agrees that what he or she brings is any good though.
Yeh, but I would guess that it could be said about all of us. We haven't found an explanation and many have been on this forum for years.
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Typically, when someone disagrees with you here, you get statements like...
Yeah, but what about ______________?
Or..
That cant be because ________________!
Yet he decides to do a "drive by" assault with a snide remark..then heads for the hills
Who does that?? And why..
Is my opinion any worse than anyone elses? I mean, I have heard so doosies here.. Right?
Well people are who they are..Some better than others.
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Let it go..
But there is a reason there are no new posters here..
I'm with Dona on this. I like Dona's questions. She / he, raises many awkward points, some may have been answered in the past but Dona is exploring this forum in a new way that personally I like. Took me a while to adapt but it is refreshing.
I'm on the Wolverine concept come avalanche or the winds. Next would be WABs infra sound but not seen any evidence for that. ...
Murder or KGB next but I can't see that due to the remote area.
Yeti, big foot, aliens .....nope
Yes Dona brings something different to this Forum. Not everyone agrees that what he or she brings is any good though.
Yeh, but I would guess that it could be said about all of us. We haven't found an explanation and many have been on this forum for years.
We wont find an explanation without more Evidence. We can only put forward Theories or suggestions
and then of course its back to the Evidence quandary.
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We do know that the stove was NOT used. It was not needed. Although the tent was doubled up (two tents created into one) the need for a stove with 9 people was not needed. Just by the body heat, there was no need to set it up. 4 people per tent, and you have 9, it was pretty warm in there already. Matter of fact, I would not be surprised if a small door (like a doggie door) was created to let fresh air in because it was so warm. Canvas tents have a tendency to warm up quick being that warm air has nowhere to go.
As an aside, my father owned a canvas tent from the 1960's (big) and it warmed up quite quick. Opening a window was a MUST just to circulate the air in 30 degree weather.
As for carbon monoxide poisoning, The stove was not needed, it was found not used at all. Not even set up. Did they go crazy from their own breathing? You gotta doubt that because everyone but TWO people were inside the tent when the chaos happened.
No stove. No lack of air. Something happened that they could not control.
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Opening a window was a MUST just to circulate the air in 30 degree weather.
If this is Celsius then of course, but then it has no relevance to the Dyatlov Pass incident. If Fahrenheit, are you serious? Even buildings insulated to modern standards need heating if you want it to be warm inside in 30F (-1C) weather.
The tent was not "doubled up" as in double layer, it was extended to make it bigger. It was a single layer of canvas, I hope somehow waterproofed, otherwise it's completely useless but we don't even know if that was the case or not..