Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nigel Evans on October 08, 2018, 06:04:28 AM

Title: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 08, 2018, 06:04:28 AM
Hi there it's been awhile.

I thought i'd introduce a new theory, hope this is the correct place on the site for it.

The theory explains why they fled the tent so quickly, were forced to stay away, Doroshenko's foaming mouth, the orange skin of some team members and some aspects of Chivruay.

It's all about the tent containing toxic levels of nitrogen dioxide gas.
The problem with NO2 is that on contact with mucous membranes it slowly converts into nitric acid which has life threatening consequences. Note the slowly bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide_poisoning
"Nitrogen dioxide is sparingly soluble in water and on inhalation, it diffuses into the lung and slowly hydrolyzes to nitrous and nitric acid which causes pulmonary edema and pneumonitis leading to the inflammation of the bronchioles and pulmonary alveolus resulting from lipid peroxidation and oxidative stress.[25] "

Also - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid
"Concentrated nitric acid stains human skin yellow due to its reaction with the keratin. These yellow stains turn orange when neutralized"

So the theory is that the members of the tent suffered strong exposure to NO2. This forced them to cut openings in the tent for ventilation before giving up and cutting open the tent to escape. Then they had no choice but to abandon the tent and head to the forest to seek shelter.

Subsequently Doroshenko died early of pulmonary edema and some members of the party demonstrated orange skin at their funerals.

So where did the NO2 come from?  There are two possibilities both of which rely on the fact that the level base for the tent was produced by cutting down through the snow layer to the ground below (or close enough).

1. A curious version of silo fillers disease. The layer of snow was trapping NO2 build up from the decaying grass (silage) possibly over a wide area of the mountain. Cutting through the snow to pitch the tent "took the stopper out of the bottle" and the tent slowly filled with a toxic level of NO2.

2. Atmospheric microwaves. One of the strongest theories to explain ball lightning (and perhaps the golden orbs known to frequent the region) is microwave energy. - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/periodically-i-hear-stori/
A by product of microwave energy is the production of ozone and nitrogen oxides including NO2. Now if these gas molecules are ionised and the mountain has the correct polarity then the gas molecules will tend to descend to earth by electrical attraction. But not if the mountain is covered by an insulating blanket of snow. However if you pierce this insulating blanket (with a tent) then the above electrical attraction will be focused on a very small area greatly concentrating the gases.

NO2 is heavier than air so it follows that if there was a slight gradient or more across the floor of the tent then there would be the "unlucky end" where the gas would build up the worst. This offers an explanation for Doroshenko's early death - he was sat/lying at this worst position and suffered the most exposure. Have a look at this photo - https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-funerals-9-march-1959-36.jpg under maximum zoom and do you agree that Yuri's face is significantly darker than Zina's? It would fit with this theory that he suffered the worst exposure and died quickly. The nitric acid conversion in his lungs being slow enough to permit him to make his way down the mountain before he died. This also helps explain perhaps why Igor was vomiting but others weren't.

Another photo supporting the NO2 theory imo is the morgue photo of Lyudmila. Notice the area of the chin is completely white from being protected by tight clothing but that there is a graduating scale of light/dark on the forehead to the scalp were vapour would partially stain the skin under a hood.

CHIVRUAY

I don't know a lot about this event but reading the article on this site the following caught my eye :-
1. The darkening of the skin of those that died in the Northern Urals is identical to those that died in the Chivruay tragedy.
Enter the NO2 theory...

2. "The remaining five, hoping that the scouts would return soon, spread out the tent and lay down on top of it. They could not pitch up the tent because of the strong wind.".
I would suggest that the five that lay on top of the tent had become incapacitated (like Doroshenko) and had to be left whilst the others sought help and they didn't seek shelter within the tent (pitched or even unpitched) because they recognised that the interior of the tent had poisoned them earlier so they thought it was safer to lie on it rather than in it even thought inside would afford much more shelter.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 08, 2018, 10:21:04 PM
Glad you made it Nigel, I enjoy reading your theories and explanations.

All interesting things to ponder, but I have the feeling you don't actually believe gas escaping from beneath the snow caused by fermentation of organic substances 'grass' to be a feasible possibility.  I am under the assumption you have already calulated most if not all readers will reach form the same option and subsequently be left only with the option of 'Ball Lightening' as a source for the gas. 

I would argue that 'if' they were poisoned with 'any' gas substance, there can be multiple other sources of the gas, all having nothing to do with BL.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 09, 2018, 05:03:47 AM
Hi there.

I'm open minded about the source of the gas but it's true that high winds in a snowstorm create good electrical conditions and of course BL is a solution for the ravine deaths.

But i think the NO2 is the one to beat given that it fits well with the DPI also explains some unusual features of Chivruay (also high winds 50m/s!).
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 09, 2018, 05:20:36 AM
Just for rocket fuel or silo theory fans. Nitrogen tetroxide is relevant to both.... :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_tetroxide#Use_as_a_rocket_propellant
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on October 09, 2018, 01:41:27 PM
Nitrogen Dioxide and  similar gases are highly unlikely to be the reason that the Dyatlov Group left their Tent and left behind the means of survival.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on October 09, 2018, 02:27:16 PM
Nitrogen Dioxide and  similar gases are highly unlikely to be the reason that the Dyatlov Group left their Tent and left behind the means of survival.

Perhaps, but please articulate a reason as to why.  Its easy for someone to simply post a blanketing statement within every thread/theory they dont subscribe to, but adding more detail or explaining why you think/believe what you do can actually lend credit to your opinion. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 10, 2018, 12:36:15 AM
>sarapuk

As LC says what are your reasons?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on October 10, 2018, 03:03:40 PM
Apologies, you are correct, I should at least add a little by way of my reasoning.  NO2 is a common pollutant usually formed by burning fossil fuels, including coal, oil and gas. People usually have to worry about nitrogen dioxide over a long period of time at low levels — for instance, from gas stoves at home. Prolonged exposure can lead to coughing and wheezing.  Exposure to high concentrations may be fatal. So surely any contact with NO2 at the Tent wouldnt have resulted in all the subsequent actions of the Dyatlov Group. NO2 wouldnt affect their brains to the extent that all subsequent actions follow on. In other words if they got out of their tent because of this gas poisoning they would still be able to gather their senses and collect all their gear , instead of heading off down hill half naked without their gear, which of course is what they did, by all accounts.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 11, 2018, 02:27:22 AM
@sarapuk.

Yes you make a good point, even if forced to suddenly exit the tent due to acrid gas, why not hold your nose and return to collect stuff particularly footwear, Dyatlov's jacket pushed into a hole and the second flashlight on the outside of the tent?

But i don't think you're considering the right scale for this. Forget low level pollution etc and think more like WW1 soldiers in a mustard gas attack. Except this one is coming out of the sky or out of the ground. If the NO2 has had time to affect the lungs (conversion into nitric acid) then the same applies to the eyes.

Two other things that come to mind for the microwave theory is that the electrical potential could be lighting up the tent with St Elmo's fire and they could be hearing a loud noise like the sound of chains.

But it's a good point whatever it was forced them to get out and then stay away.


Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on October 11, 2018, 01:14:49 PM
Well I suppose that if it was a WW1 type of event then gas of some kind would most likely get them out of the Tent. But what about the other things that followed. Are the other things isolated events or part of the one event  !  ?  If they are part of the one event then gas can not explain the serious injuries that some of the group suffered.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 11, 2018, 01:51:04 PM
Gas contamination could explain why the "returning three" were so tightly grouped later on. Their lung function being reduced to the extent that their cardio vascular systems couldn't handle the uphill effort. However Rustem had internal bleeding like Semyon and Lyudmila so he wasn't going far anyway. Of course the ravine four died from some form of high energy trauma difficult to connect with gas :).
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on October 14, 2018, 04:10:13 PM
But can we say for sure that those 3 were returning to the Tent  ! ?  Maybe thats for another Topic such as sequence of events. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 15, 2018, 03:55:00 AM
"Returning 3" is just to identify that group, but it's a good assumption that they were the last ones to live.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on October 15, 2018, 01:20:57 PM
Why is it a good assumption that they were the last ones to live  !  ?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on October 15, 2018, 11:05:25 PM
Because it fits the facts the best. Rustem was in the returning 3 group but had a similar (but milder) injury to the ravine 4 (chest trauma).
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on October 16, 2018, 03:27:30 PM
Well I suppose as an assumption of facts it could work both ways ie they could be going up or down the slope, no way of knowing for sure. Those injuries to Rustem Slobodin's head were serious injuries.  Any way I think this can be better discussed in the SEQUENCE OF EVENTS TOPIC.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 10, 2018, 04:16:08 AM
What was odd about the area where Rustem’s body was found was a stream which ran down the mountainside and led into a large open area of shallow water which had a weird gigantic crust of ice across the top of it. It was not a single flat sheet of ice, rather it was a hexagonal, honeycomb type of texture. Each of the honeycomb shapes had dips in it which had a red colour in the middle of it. Alexey the Officer said to me that he was not sure what caused the red colour in the middle of the hexacomb shapes. The red had soaked into the ice and Alexey said it could be caused by the red berries that came down with the water while one or two people said it could have been caused by chemicals. It was obviously worth investigating because one of the many theories in relation to the deaths concerned the presence of dangerous chemicals in the area. Someone mentioned rocket fuel but it was not immediately apparent how it would have got on top of the ice and there was an awful lot of the red marking over the whole sheet of ice which measured roughly 18 to 21metres (60 to 70 feet) long and about 65 metres (20ft) across.

****, Keith. Journey to Dyatlov Pass: An Explanation of the Mystery (pp. 49-50). Keith ****. Kindle Edition.

NO2 is a reddish brown colour.. Just saying.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: CalzagheChick on November 13, 2018, 07:22:59 PM
What's up with the hexagonal/honeycomb ice?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 14, 2018, 10:57:36 AM


Ice crystals are naturally hexagonal and can get quite big.
(https://i.imgur.com/KRslOsS.jpg)

N.B. that photo came from Mt Erebus in Antarctica which is the world's most southerly volcano and warm air heats the interior of ice caves.  So maybe microwaves are involved?.... Pity we don't have some photos from the DP and he didn't collect some samples for testing.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 23, 2018, 09:02:39 AM
I have an explanation for the hexagons with red centres, see watermelon snow - http://thescienceexplorer.com/nature/sastrugi-penitentes-and-sun-cups-10-weird-things-you-don-t-know-about-snow
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 04, 2018, 03:07:16 AM
http://www.strangehistory.net/2014/03/08/russian-fireball-weirdness-1663/
Note the mention of - "the water seemed to be covered with rust under the reddish light", a good fit for NO2 vapour condensing on the surface?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 04, 2018, 09:55:44 AM
How about.... no.   Does that fit?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 04, 2018, 10:23:59 AM
How about.... no.   Does that fit?
No.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 04, 2018, 10:40:47 AM
 lol1

 okey1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 04, 2018, 10:51:01 AM
 thanky1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Jacques-Emile on December 05, 2018, 06:41:59 PM
Unfortunately, a fine idea is cut down by meager fact.
NO2 did not exist.  Below 21C it becomes liquid N2O4. At -11C dinitrogen tetroxide freezes rock-hard.
Unless one posits relativistic phonon supersymmetry or such gobbledygook, NO2 is only useful as a bludgeon in these temperatures.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 06, 2018, 01:13:26 AM
Unfortunately, a fine idea is cut down by meager fact.
NO2 did not exist.  Below 21C it becomes liquid N2O4. At -11C dinitrogen tetroxide freezes rock-hard.
Unless one posits relativistic phonon supersymmetry or such gobbledygook, NO2 is only useful as a bludgeon in these temperatures.
Yes i've just made that point on Star man's thread. But within a volume of microwave energy things would warm up? And this would raise the temperature of the snow closer to it's melt point (>-11C) allowing the formation of sastrugi and of footsteps that lasted for weeks? I would favour a mist/aerosol.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 06, 2018, 01:52:36 AM
Also ozone - BP -112C could keep them away from the tent.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Jacques-Emile on December 06, 2018, 05:05:17 AM
Also ozone - BP -112C could keep them away from the tent.
And immediately bleach the tent white. Why are we playing this silly game? What's next, reindeer farts?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 06, 2018, 05:56:26 AM
What's next, reindeer farts?
At last a half decent contribution from you to solving this mystery. I'll give you 2 / 10 for effort.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 06, 2018, 07:08:10 AM
Also ozone - BP -112C could keep them away from the tent.
And immediately bleach the tent white. Why are we playing this silly game? What's next, reindeer farts?

Welp, there goes the ozone - BP -112C  idea.     clap1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 06, 2018, 07:29:59 AM
Also ozone - BP -112C could keep them away from the tent.
And immediately bleach the tent white. Why are we playing this silly game? What's next, reindeer farts?

Welp, there goes the ozone - BP -112C  idea.     clap1
It would depend on the ozone concentration and waxing/proofing of the canvas..... and it could weaken the fabric resulting in tearing in the wind....  thanky1
But ozone isn't a key factor in the narrative, NO2 has to be there to explain the orange skin and foaming mouth. It could be dissolved in an aerosol/mist from microwave warming which would melt the atmospheric snow/graupnel which would mean that the nitric acid was already forming. They could have been breathing a vinegar mist.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 06, 2018, 10:22:01 AM
But....  there is already an explanation for the orange skin.    explode1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 06, 2018, 10:47:06 AM
But....  there is already an explanation for the orange skin.    explode1
Remind me.


Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Jacques-Emile on December 08, 2018, 08:05:28 AM
Finally, we have a person on the board to evaluate others' opinions!  Congratulations!
Since you are taking this position, I suggest that you use Karl Popper's philosophy of the evaluation of scientific hypotheses. (See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/ ) 
A summary:
Quote
Popper accordingly repudiates induction and rejects the view that it is the characteristic method of scientific investigation and inference, substituting falsifiability in its place. It is easy, he argues, to obtain evidence in favour of virtually any theory, and he consequently holds that such ‘corroboration’, as he terms it, should count scientifically only if it is the positive result of a genuinely ‘risky’ prediction, which might conceivably have been false. For Popper, a theory is scientific only if it is refutable by a conceivable event.
If you use Popper's logic, the suggestion that NO2 is present as a gas in the tent is subject to the refutation that NO2 cannot exist as a gas at these temperatures.  Application of Popper's rules to a hypothesis is most certainly indeed a half decent contribution to solving this mystery in refuting a false hypothesis.
Anyone, of course, may extend the hypothesis with further conditions, such as the presence of a mechanical device to manufacture warm NO2 gas in the tent.  Yes, of course, that overcomes this refutation by temperature.  One can continue to apply bandages to one's proposals to cover the wounds placed by reality.
For my friends who wish to submit hypotheses for your evaluation, I suggest that we not be lazy.  We should try to come up with ideas that are not instantly refutable by scientific principles present at the site at that time.  This also includes irrefutable propositions like the Vaviaga, the Fallen Angels, the Ball of Ligtning.  These cannot be refuted using science.  Popper suggests that the irrefutable cannot be scientific.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 08, 2018, 09:25:17 AM
Finally, we have a person on the board to evaluate others' opinions!  Congratulations!
Q. Who was it that asked - "Why are we playing this silly game?". dance1
Wrt the content of your post referring to the bp of NO2 - you are omitting the possibility of a transient situation where a microwave field upstream in the wind (perhaps as photographed by Semyon) heats the air and said NO2 which then passes across the tent. I like the idea that this plume is electrically attracted to earth through the tent but it's not a key feature of the narrative just a nice to have, ditto ozone. The plume raises the temperature of the surrounding snow, creating the conditions for sastrugi, persistent footsteps and a hot spot. It's even possible that this plume was hot enough that they quickly exited the tent to escape the heat.... It would fit with this narrative that the plume is relatively narrow so that the group stand nearby and consider their options and also that Semyon and Nikolai escape it's effects.

As for Popper, the goal here is not to construct scientific theories but to create plausible narratives that can survive (sensible) criticism.


Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Jacques-Emile on December 08, 2018, 11:51:59 AM
You do realize that what you just posted is nonsense, no? Microwave bands don't just appear like brooms in the Sorcerer's Apprentice?!
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 08, 2018, 12:08:24 PM
You do realize that what you just posted is nonsense, no? Microwave bands don't just appear like brooms in the Sorcerer's Apprentice?!
Bands? Brooms?
You accept that microwaves create NO2 yes?So why can't that NO2 blow downwind as a plume?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Jacques-Emile on December 08, 2018, 04:34:19 PM
You do realize that what you just posted is nonsense, no? Microwave bands don't just appear like brooms in the Sorcerer's Apprentice?!
Bands? Brooms?
You accept that microwaves create NO2 yes?So why can't that NO2 blow downwind as a plume?
So that is how they warmed up their cocoa?  And they all walked down the hill in search of an electrical plug for extension cord?  I suppose so.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 09, 2018, 02:51:31 AM

So that is how they warmed up their cocoa?  And they all walked down the hill in search of an electrical plug for extension cord?  I suppose so.



My purpose for posting here is to try and develop a plausible narrative for the DPI.
What's yours?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 09, 2018, 02:12:40 PM
NO2 plume filmed from plane? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTB3mk7oBTw

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 09, 2018, 03:04:19 PM
Must be......  A piloted fireball. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 10, 2018, 04:48:04 AM
Here's another - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR2cn_fZRbQ
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 10, 2018, 05:17:47 AM


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/
"While the boiling point of nitrogen dioxide is 21.15 °C, in normal ambient conditions its low partial pressure in the atmosphere (908 mmHg at 25 °C) prevents condensation so that it exists in the air in its gaseous form."
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 10, 2018, 07:15:57 AM


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/
"While the boiling point of nitrogen dioxide is 21.15 °C, in normal ambient conditions its low partial pressure in the atmosphere (908 mmHg at 25 °C) prevents condensation so that it exists in the air in its gaseous form, has a sharp/shinny point on one end, has an expanding vapor trail, and flies through the air similar to a rocket."

Fixed it for ya.    wink1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 10, 2018, 07:33:57 AM


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK138707/)
"While the boiling point of nitrogen dioxide is 21.15 °C, in normal ambient conditions its low partial pressure in the atmosphere (908 mmHg at 25 °C) prevents condensation so that it exists in the air in its gaseous form, has a sharp/shinny point on one end, has an expanding vapor trail, and flies through the air similar to a rocket."

Fixed it for ya.    wink1
Ever helpful. kewl1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 10, 2018, 09:25:04 AM
Humans are strange.  Fun starts at 0:30


https://youtu.be/pQu3pqOtMa8
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 10, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
I looked very hard but couldn't see a sharp shiny point..   dance1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Jacques-Emile on December 10, 2018, 10:30:54 AM
So what?  The kinetics of condensation from NO2 to N2O4 are relatively slow.  So what?  You're still invoking majick.  I do not see why you are enjoying trolling this board so much with garbage.  Please continue, I will not read your submissions.  Looking up WHO Guidelines for Indoor Air Quality for chemical kinetics is just ignorant.

If you want to find out about the kinetics N2O4 first order it is here: https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/inchi/InChI=1S/N2O4/c3-1(4)2(5)6 and about NO2 the condensation kinetics second order are here: https://kinetics.nist.gov/kinetics/ReactionSearch?r0=10102440&r1=10102440&r2=0&r3=0&r4=0&p0=10544726&p1=0&p2=0&p3=0&p4=0&expandResults=true&
If this is still magick to you and I'm absolutely sure it is, ask a real chemist what is going on, don't go looking up crap on Internet.  This is why people think Dyatlov mystery is stupid because of absurd postings.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 10, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
If nitrous oxide (N2O) was also a component of this plume then they could be affected by laughing gas... = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide)
Then you've got an explanation for a lack of judgement and collecting various injuries :-"Exposure to nitrous oxide causes short-term decreases in mental performance, audiovisual ability, and manual dexterity.[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide#cite_note-25) These effects coupled with the induced spatial and temporal disorientation could result in physical harm to the user from environmental hazards."
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 10, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
So what?  The kinetics of condensation from NO2 to N2O4 are relatively slow.  So what?  You're still invoking majick.  I do not see why you are enjoying trolling this board so much with garbage.  Please continue, I will not read your submissions.  Looking up WHO Guidelines for Indoor Air Quality for chemical kinetics is just ignorant.

If you want to find out about the kinetics N2O4 first order it is here: https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/inchi/InChI=1S/N2O4/c3-1(4)2(5)6 (https://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/inchi/InChI=1S/N2O4/c3-1(4)2(5)6) and about NO2 the condensation kinetics second order are here: https://kinetics.nist.gov/kinetics/ReactionSearch?r0=10102440&r1=10102440&r2=0&r3=0&r4=0&p0=10544726&p1=0&p2=0&p3=0&p4=0&expandResults=true& (https://kinetics.nist.gov/kinetics/ReactionSearch?r0=10102440&r1=10102440&r2=0&r3=0&r4=0&p0=10544726&p1=0&p2=0&p3=0&p4=0&expandResults=true&)
If this is still magick to you and I'm absolutely sure it is, ask a real chemist what is going on, don't go looking up crap on Internet.  This is why people think Dyatlov mystery is stupid because of absurd postings.
I welcome arguing these points with you but just throwing links at me isn't making an argument.

The plume under discussion could be above 20C (well above). Condensation is not critical path.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 10, 2018, 05:33:39 PM
Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact.  But whats the point of this theory  !  ?  It doesnt go any way to explaining the sequence of events and the various injuries on the bodies.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 11, 2018, 01:15:08 AM
Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact.  But whats the point of this theory  !  ?  It doesnt go any way to explaining the sequence of events and the various injuries on the bodies.
It explains :-
Why they left the tent.
Why they stood in a line some distance from the tent.
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.
Why the footsteps were so persistent (powder doesn't behave like that).
Why Yuri D had foam on his cheek.
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin. It also provides an explanation for Chivruay.

It fits in with the electro magnetic phenomena narrative that explains the ravine injuries as from impact/crushing from ball lightning rollers - Ivanov's fire orbs.
It also gives a plausible reason (nitrous oxide) for some very bad decision making and an injury profile resulting from increased clumsiness.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 11, 2018, 04:36:19 AM
Here's another plume. Although i think the tadpole theory is a bit wild myself. Whatever next broomsticks? Mugs of cocoa? Sharp pointy rockets?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tadpole-shaped-ufo-filmed-flying-13437661
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 11, 2018, 07:17:53 AM
Quote
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.

Wild Speculation with zero corroborating evidence. 


Quote
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin

Prove it.    nose1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 11, 2018, 07:46:56 AM
Quote
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.

Wild Speculation with zero corroborating evidence. 


Quote
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin

Prove it.    nose1

Shavarin stated they had to dismount from their skis approaching the tent because the snow was too rough (and hard) to ski over? The hot spot is there for all to see. But there are none so blind as those that will not dance1


You should try and read articles on this site they're quite informative...

https://dyatlovpass.com/funerals-1959?lid=1#12may (https://dyatlovpass.com/funerals-1959?lid=1#12may)Witness testimony of Rimma Kolevatova given on April 14 (Case files pages 270-272 (https://dyatlovpass.com/redirect.php?lid=1&pid=18160)).
This is before the body of her brother was found. "I was present at all the funerals of the group. Why were their faces and hands all so dark brown?
Recollection of relatives and eyewitnesses at the funeral, given almost fifty years after the tragedy, mention the dark orange color of the skin, reminiscent of the color of bricks. Though unusual, nothing of this was recorded in the official records of the autopsies. At that time, all photography was black and white, so there are no color pictures of the dead. Some say that only the exposed skin was darker in color, that the skin under their clothes what could be seen (it was Zina family member who witnessed this), was not so unnaturally colored.


N.B. no record of this was made at autopsies because the skin hadn't darkened at this point the bodies had been frozen and this would retard the nitric acid - keratin reaction which gives the dark orange brown colour.(n.b. here i'm making some assumptions, i'm not a biochemist). Compare the morgue photo of Yuri D and Zina with the funeral shots. The pathologist didn't record it because he didn't see it.

From Lyudmila's post mortem -

The skin of the face is of yellowish brown colour.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. Again from a non biochemist  - the nitric acid had enough time to take effect including warming in the spring thaw. Note her white chin on the morgue photo, protective scarf? Chin pushed in snow at point of death resulting in dilution of NO2/nitric acid?


Q.E.D.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 11, 2018, 02:19:42 PM
https://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/935792/ufo-invasion-sighting-alien-evidence
Forget the first video, look at the photos underneath.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 11, 2018, 03:28:14 PM
Space junk.   What goes up, must come down.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 11, 2018, 03:40:17 PM
But the young woman, who has not been named, said the object did not fly through the sky.
Instead the witness said she picked up her camera to film the object as it motionlessly chugged out the smoke before vanishing into the sky.
She told 20 Minuten: “The object with the tail just stood in the sky and it did not move for two or three minutes.”
The object then rapidly reared back into life and “turned to the right and disappeared” the witness recounted.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 11, 2018, 05:11:24 PM
But the young woman, who has not been named, said the object did not fly through the sky.
Instead the witness said she picked up her camera to film the object as it motionlessly chugged out the smoke before vanishing into the sky.
She told 20 Minuten: “The object with the tail just stood in the sky and it did not move for two or three minutes.”
The object then rapidly reared back into life and “turned to the right and disappeared” the witness recounted.

Do I need to repost the vid with dumb idiots going stupid thinking the aliens are invading the planet simply because their inbreed azz cant tell the dif between a rocket and a piloted fireball?   If you believe everything crazed morons say, I have a bridge to sell you.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 12, 2018, 02:14:56 AM
But the young woman, who has not been named, said the object did not fly through the sky.
Instead the witness said she picked up her camera to film the object as it motionlessly chugged out the smoke before vanishing into the sky.
She told 20 Minuten: “The object with the tail just stood in the sky and it did not move for two or three minutes.”
The object then rapidly reared back into life and “turned to the right and disappeared” the witness recounted.

Do I need to repost the vid with dumb idiots going stupid thinking the aliens are invading the planet simply because their inbreed azz cant tell the dif between a rocket and a piloted fireball?   If you believe everything crazed morons say, I have a bridge to sell you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyh-JpWdGmQ
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 12, 2018, 02:15:40 AM
Here's one in infra red from the Chilean Navy. https://nypost.com/2017/01/09/chilean-navy-admits-it-cant-explain-ufo/
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 12, 2018, 06:57:04 AM
Notice how the exhaust plume expands behind them as they travel.  Why are you wasting everyones time with this high altitude nonsense?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 12, 2018, 07:50:52 AM
Notice how the exhaust plume expands behind them as they travel.  Why are you wasting everyones time with this high altitude nonsense?
Notice how the exhaust plume expands behind them as they travel. 
Tadpoles have large heads and tapered tails?
Why are you wasting everyones time with this high altitude nonsense?Because they fit my narrative. The DP group were unlucky and pitched their tent in what later was to become part of one of these plumes. N.B. the last example - 20 Minuten is at low altitude and is rising steeply because it is hot. My narrative has it that something similar flattened in strong winds covered the area of the tent softening the snow and forced them out of the tent with noxious fumes possibly leaving them intoxicated.
These videos and photos are key to supporting this narrative.
Otherwise you'd think i was crazy.... tongue2
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 12, 2018, 08:52:56 AM
Quote
forced them out of the tent with noxious fumes possibly leaving them intoxicated.

Cant believe Im saying this, but I agree.

Quote
These videos and photos are key to supporting this narrative.

 Showing UFO vids of something exiting/entering earths atmosphere cooking off a gas thats only visible in the infrared spectrum isnt going to prove your theory that BL (the god particle) was a decisive factor in anything that happened in 1959.   
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 12, 2018, 09:12:31 AM
Quote
forced them out of the tent with noxious fumes possibly leaving them intoxicated.

Cant believe Im saying this, but I agree. Hey!  lol2

Quote
These videos and photos are key to supporting this narrative.

 Showing UFO vids of something exiting/entering earths atmosphere cooking off a gas thats only visible in the infrared spectrum isnt going to prove your theory that BL (the god particle) was a decisive factor in anything that happened in 1959. But the objects are stationery and it is the plumes that are streaming away in the wind? Or even changing direction in the wind? But the source of the plume is always stationery (in the wind)? Because it's an electro magnetic object and unaffected by wind speed....
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Monika on December 12, 2018, 10:31:37 PM
Quote
forced them out of the tent with noxious fumes possibly leaving them intoxicated.

Cant believe Im saying this, but I agree.

I do not think they were intoxicated. It does not match their behavior. After their escape from the tent, they went towards the woods upright and without falling on snow, at their footprints the body contour or hand were not found, so they did not fall on the way. And I know how difficult is going in a deep snow and how easy it can be for you to topple. And their next activity was rational, they set up a fire, they built the den (even without gloves!), all the time they were conscious and act without panic. When someone is intoxicated, it takes a long time for the body to be recovered.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 13, 2018, 03:41:18 AM
Quote
forced them out of the tent with noxious fumes possibly leaving them intoxicated.

Cant believe Im saying this, but I agree.

I do not think they were intoxicated. It does not match their behavior. After their escape from the tent, they went towards the woods upright and without falling on snow, at their footprints the body contour or hand were not found, so they did not fall on the way. And I know how difficult is going in a deep snow and how easy it can be for you to topple. And their next activity was rational, they set up a fire, they built the den (even without gloves!), all the time they were conscious and act without panic. When someone is intoxicated, it takes a long time for the body to be recovered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLycRSuHSAs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLycRSuHSAs)

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 13, 2018, 03:44:51 AM
If you watch the video all the way through she demonstrates how clumsy she can get. Now you have an explanation for how he fell out of the tree.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Monika on December 13, 2018, 06:02:26 AM
If you watch the video all the way through she demonstrates how clumsy she can get. Now you have an explanation for how he fell out of the tree.

Yes, but the others were all right. And were able such super-human acting as build the den without gloves and poorly dressed.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 13, 2018, 07:21:03 AM
If you watch the video all the way through she demonstrates how clumsy she can get. Now you have an explanation for how he fell out of the tree.

Yes, but the others were all right. And were able such super-human acting as build the den without gloves and poorly dressed.
The others had a number of abrasions, cuts etc sufficiently serious to be held up as "combat injuries".
There is speculation that the den was too well constructed and is part of the "military accident coverup theory" or that they discovered a mansi hunter shelter.
Nikolai had gloves not sure about Semyon.Assuming they built it they clearly had knives for cutting the sticks that made the floor of the den. So it's not hard to create tools to help construct it. Just a sharp pole would help you dig out the interior.
The rescuers noted that they had used a lot of matches to light the fire. There's something about that fact that talks to me. That suggests foolishness. They would have had a finite number of matches for the trip. They'd lit a few fires by then, so had all the experience necessary to get it right with just a few attempts.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on December 13, 2018, 12:15:25 PM
If you watch the video all the way through she demonstrates how clumsy she can get. Now you have an explanation for how he fell out of the tree.

Yes, but the others were all right. And were able such super-human acting as build the den without gloves and poorly dressed.
The others had a number of abrasions, cuts etc sufficiently serious to be held up as "combat injuries".
There is speculation that the den was too well constructed and is part of the "military accident coverup theory" or that they discovered a mansi hunter shelter.
Nikolai had gloves not sure about Semyon.Assuming they built it they clearly had knives for cutting the sticks that made the floor of the den. So it's not hard to create tools to help construct it. Just a sharp pole would help you dig out the interior.
The rescuers noted that they had used a lot of matches to light the fire. There's something about that fact that talks to me. That suggests foolishness. They would have had a finite number of matches for the trip. They'd lit a few fires by then, so had all the experience necessary to get it right with just a few attempts.

Nigel,  the clumsiness may be explained by the cold.  I remember the time I was skiing and made the mistake of not putting my gloves on before I got the chair lift.  My gloves were clipped together and by the time I got off at the top of the mountain I couldn't unclip them, because My hands were so cold I had no dexterity or strength left in my fingers. Also it was quite windy.  That might explain why it took so many matches to light fire.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 13, 2018, 02:00:38 PM
Nigel,  the clumsiness may be explained by the cold.  I remember the time I was skiing and made the mistake of not putting my gloves on before I got the chair lift.  My gloves were clipped together and by the time I got off at the top of the mountain I couldn't unclip them, because My hands were so cold I had no dexterity or strength left in my fingers. Also it was quite windy.  That might explain why it took so many matches to light fire.Well it's one of the many ambiguous details of the DPI that could be made to suit different narratives but i just get a feeling that it points at untypical foolish behaviour. Nicolai had gloves so he could have used the matches, why light a fire in the wind? Why not find better shelter or build a barrier even out of snow to shelter starting the fire? Why climb a tree anyway?

Imo the "nitrous oxide theory" puts the Otorten News thing in a new light. This is believed to be the last thing they wrote on the evening they died :-
From the Otorten Evening News, Issue 1, 1 February 1959: SCIENCE Lately in scientific circles there has been a very lively debate about the existence of Yeti. According to the latest data, the snowmen live in the northern Urals, in the area of the Otorten Mountain. PHILOSOPHY Ski hikers and love. Philosophical seminar every day in the tent main building, and these lectures will be given by Dr Tibeaux Ph.D., and Dubinina (MA in love science). TECHNICAL NEWS Hiking sledge – very good for riding in trains, in the car, and on a horse. But not really any good for transportation of loads over the snow. For further information please turn to the main constructor Kolevatov. Fun puzzles. Is it possible to warm nine ski hikers with one blanket? SPORTS The team of radio experts, consisting of Doroshenko and Kolmogorova, set a new world record in contesting how fast they could put together pieces of the stove. The record is one hour, two minutes, and 27 seconds.


The diaries display a completely different style of recording the day, very factual statements, recording the terrain, group interaction, arguments or disagreements. The day before Igor says :-We started fire with logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a  piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.But on the following evening on a ridge in piercing winds without a warm stove and probably in damp clothes they're in a party mood having fun, perhaps even being silly...Apparently they hadn't touched the vodka.
Nitrous oxide?

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Monika on December 13, 2018, 10:31:00 PM
Nigel,  the clumsiness may be explained by the cold.  I remember the time I was skiing and made the mistake of not putting my gloves on before I got the chair lift.  My gloves were clipped together and by the time I got off at the top of the mountain I couldn't unclip them, because My hands were so cold I had no dexterity or strength left in my fingers. Also it was quite windy.  That might explain why it took so many matches to light fire.Well it's one of the many ambiguous details of the DPI that could be made to suit different narratives but i just get a feeling that it points at untypical foolish behaviour. Nicolai had gloves so he could have used the matches, why light a fire in the wind? Why not find better shelter or build a barrier even out of snow to shelter starting the fire? Why climb a tree anyway?

Imo the "nitrous oxide theory" puts the Otorten News thing in a new light. This is believed to be the last thing they wrote on the evening they died :-
From the Otorten Evening News, Issue 1, 1 February 1959: SCIENCE Lately in scientific circles there has been a very lively debate about the existence of Yeti. According to the latest data, the snowmen live in the northern Urals, in the area of the Otorten Mountain. PHILOSOPHY Ski hikers and love. Philosophical seminar every day in the tent main building, and these lectures will be given by Dr Tibeaux Ph.D., and Dubinina (MA in love science). TECHNICAL NEWS Hiking sledge – very good for riding in trains, in the car, and on a horse. But not really any good for transportation of loads over the snow. For further information please turn to the main constructor Kolevatov. Fun puzzles. Is it possible to warm nine ski hikers with one blanket? SPORTS The team of radio experts, consisting of Doroshenko and Kolmogorova, set a new world record in contesting how fast they could put together pieces of the stove. The record is one hour, two minutes, and 27 seconds.


The diaries display a completely different style of recording the day, very factual statements, recording the terrain, group interaction, arguments or disagreements. The day before Igor says :-We started fire with logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a  piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.But on the following evening on a ridge in piercing winds without a warm stove and probably in damp clothes they're in a party mood having fun, perhaps even being silly...Apparently they hadn't touched the vodka.
Nitrous oxide?

When you mentioned the last entry in the diary, it was done the day before the mystery event happened (31.1). I wonder why they did not write anything in the diary just that day when it happened. Every day they wrote something there, but nothing on that day. And why did not they used the stove on that day ? (maybe the strong wind did not allow them to used it, the chimney pipe was stick out of the tent)
In any case, we have no record of what state of mind were they on that day when it happened.

As you wrote: “The diaries display a completely different style of recording the day, very factual statements, recording the terrain, group interaction, arguments or disagreements”. The explanation may be that they were already approaching the goal of the whole expedition, only a few days were behind them and they began to deal with it seriously. It was not a fun party! They had a serious duty, and it cost some money, a certain amount of money was even provided by the tourist club at the University. That's why they probably started to record properly in the diary But why did not they do that on that critical day, that's a mystery.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 14, 2018, 01:41:59 AM
And why did not they used the stove on that day ? (maybe the strong wind did not allow them to used it, the chimney pipe was stick out of the tent)The tent had two erection modes, narrow base and high roof when sheltered from the wind, low roof and wide base in exposed places. The stove was only lit in the high roof mode as it was slung below it.

Yes no entries in the diaries that evening but someone wrote the Ortorten News... It's all ambiguous of course and can support multiple narratives but there's something about that Dutch girl's behaviour that resonates for me with the DP story. The Ortorten News, leaving the tent, decision to go to the forest, wasting lots of valuable matches, climbing a tree, falling out of a tree.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on December 14, 2018, 02:19:54 PM
Nigel,  the clumsiness may be explained by the cold.  I remember the time I was skiing and made the mistake of not putting my gloves on before I got the chair lift.  My gloves were clipped together and by the time I got off at the top of the mountain I couldn't unclip them, because My hands were so cold I had no dexterity or strength left in my fingers. Also it was quite windy.  That might explain why it took so many matches to light fire.Well it's one of the many ambiguous details of the DPI that could be made to suit different narratives but i just get a feeling that it points at untypical foolish behaviour. Nicolai had gloves so he could have used the matches, why light a fire in the wind? Why not find better shelter or build a barrier even out of snow to shelter starting the fire? Why climb a tree anyway?

Imo the "nitrous oxide theory" puts the Otorten News thing in a new light. This is believed to be the last thing they wrote on the evening they died :-
From the Otorten Evening News, Issue 1, 1 February 1959: SCIENCE Lately in scientific circles there has been a very lively debate about the existence of Yeti. According to the latest data, the snowmen live in the northern Urals, in the area of the Otorten Mountain. PHILOSOPHY Ski hikers and love. Philosophical seminar every day in the tent main building, and these lectures will be given by Dr Tibeaux Ph.D., and Dubinina (MA in love science). TECHNICAL NEWS Hiking sledge – very good for riding in trains, in the car, and on a horse. But not really any good for transportation of loads over the snow. For further information please turn to the main constructor Kolevatov. Fun puzzles. Is it possible to warm nine ski hikers with one blanket? SPORTS The team of radio experts, consisting of Doroshenko and Kolmogorova, set a new world record in contesting how fast they could put together pieces of the stove. The record is one hour, two minutes, and 27 seconds.


The diaries display a completely different style of recording the day, very factual statements, recording the terrain, group interaction, arguments or disagreements. The day before Igor says :-We started fire with logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is  hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a  piercing  wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.But on the following evening on a ridge in piercing winds without a warm stove and probably in damp clothes they're in a party mood having fun, perhaps even being silly...Apparently they hadn't touched the vodka.
Nitrous oxide?

You're right about the diaries And the evening Otorten.  It does seem a bit out of character when compared with some of the writing in the diaries.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 17, 2018, 06:09:21 AM
Another sighting of a large aerial object, note orange brown with black stripes. NO2 changes colour depending in temperature, reddish brown at ambient temps, and blacker at hotter temps. Black stripes suggesting a wavelike structure (nodes/antinodes)?
Or something else of course...

http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/bow-hunter-captured-strange-ufo-in.html
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 18, 2018, 10:26:56 PM
Ever thrown something in the air and had a buddy take a picture of it?   

Try it sometime. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 19, 2018, 12:23:39 AM
I'm not sure about the black arrow on the left.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 20, 2018, 02:02:30 PM
Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact.  But whats the point of this theory  !  ?  It doesnt go any way to explaining the sequence of events and the various injuries on the bodies.
It explains :-
Why they left the tent.
Why they stood in a line some distance from the tent.
Why the area around the tent was covered in sastrugi and the hot spot.
Why the footsteps were so persistent (powder doesn't behave like that).
Why Yuri D had foam on his cheek.
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals.Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin. It also provides an explanation for Chivruay.

It fits in with the electro magnetic phenomena narrative that explains the ravine injuries as from impact/crushing from ball lightning rollers - Ivanov's fire orbs.
It also gives a plausible reason (nitrous oxide) for some very bad decision making and an injury profile resulting from increased clumsiness.


No it doesnt explain why they left the tent. Thats speculation.
No it doesnt explain why they stood in a line some distance from the tent. Thats speculation.
Why the area around the tent was covered in SASTRUGI  ! ? and the HOT SPOT  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
Why the footsteps were so persistent  [ POWDER DOESNT BEHAVE LIKE THAT ]  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
Why Yuri D had foam on his cheek  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
It also provides an explanation for Chivruay  !  ?  Thats another case with its own possibilities. Wheres the real comparison.
It fits in with the electro magnetic phenomena narrative that explains the ravine injuries as from impact  / crushing from ball lightning rollers - Ivanovs fire orbs  !  ?  HIGHLY UNLIKELY.
It also gives a plausible reason [ nitrous oxide ] for some very bad decision making and an injury profile resulting from increased clumsiness  !  ?  EXTREME COLD could also be a plausible reason. The threat from some UNKNOWN FORCE could also be a plausible reason. There are other candidates for the plausibility reason.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 20, 2018, 02:29:09 PM

No it doesnt explain why they left the tent. Thats speculation.
All the narratives are speculation based on plausible explanations?

No it doesnt explain why they stood in a line some distance from the tent. Thats speculation.Ditto

Why the area around the tent was covered in SASTRUGI  ! ? and the HOT SPOT  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
The hot spot appears on the relevant photo? You must have seen it? The rescue team reported the sastrugi.

Why the footsteps were so persistent  [ POWDER DOESNT BEHAVE LIKE THAT ]  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?Yes anyone who has walked over powder at -15C knows it doesn't compress like that. The snow has to be closer to it's melting point.

Why Yuri D had foam on his cheek  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?It's part of the official record?

Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?Yes people who attended the funeral talked about it 50 years later when interviewed. The black and white photos support this, but they're in black and white...

Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?Yes from her morgue photo and the autopsy report.

It also provides an explanation for Chivruay  !  ?  Thats another case with its own possibilities. Wheres the real comparison.
The Chivruay bodies had yellow skin.
It fits in with the electro magnetic phenomena narrative that explains the ravine injuries as from impact  / crushing from ball lightning rollers - Ivanovs fire orbs  !  ?  HIGHLY UNLIKELY.Not when a state prosecutor (who when interviewed worked as a barrister) says "it must of been the fire orbs". That narrows down the probability somewhat. What's your explanation for his thinking? He was mad? Delusional? Both he and his superior stated that the supporting material was confiscated and they were ordered to invent an explanation as an accident.

It also gives a plausible reason [ nitrous oxide ] for some very bad decision making and an injury profile resulting from increased clumsiness  !  ?  EXTREME COLD could also be a plausible reason. The threat from some UNKNOWN FORCE could also be a plausible reason. There are other candidates for the plausibility reason.Absolutely, it's a feature of the DPI that most of the evidence (that we have) is ambiguous and can support several narratives. However the man who saw ALL the evidence said, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs. He repeated it 7 times in the Leninsky Put interview. So you have two choices. Either he was crazy or his opinion is based on convincing evidence we don't have.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 20, 2018, 03:34:53 PM

No it doesnt explain why they left the tent. Thats speculation.
All the narratives are speculation based on plausible explanations?

No it doesnt explain why they stood in a line some distance from the tent. Thats speculation.Ditto

Why the area around the tent was covered in SASTRUGI  ! ? and the HOT SPOT  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?
The hot spot appears on the relevant photo? You must have seen it? The rescue team reported the sastrugi.

Why the footsteps were so persistent  [ POWDER DOESNT BEHAVE LIKE THAT ]  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?Yes anyone who has walked over powder at -15C knows it doesn't compress like that. The snow has to be closer to it's melting point.

Why Yuri D had foam on his cheek  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?It's part of the official record?

Why Yuri D and Zina had dark orange faces at their funerals  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?Yes people who attended the funeral talked about it 50 years later when interviewed. The black and white photos support this, but they're in black and white...

Why Lyudmila had a yellow brown face but a white chin  !  ?  Do we have the EVIDENCE ?Yes from her morgue photo and the autopsy report.

It also provides an explanation for Chivruay  !  ?  Thats another case with its own possibilities. Wheres the real comparison.
The Chivruay bodies had yellow skin.
It fits in with the electro magnetic phenomena narrative that explains the ravine injuries as from impact  / crushing from ball lightning rollers - Ivanovs fire orbs  !  ?  HIGHLY UNLIKELY.Not when a state prosecutor (who when interviewed worked as a barrister) says "it must of been the fire orbs". That narrows down the probability somewhat. What's your explanation for his thinking? He was mad? Delusional? Both he and his superior stated that the supporting material was confiscated and they were ordered to invent an explanation as an accident.

It also gives a plausible reason [ nitrous oxide ] for some very bad decision making and an injury profile resulting from increased clumsiness  !  ?  EXTREME COLD could also be a plausible reason. The threat from some UNKNOWN FORCE could also be a plausible reason. There are other candidates for the plausibility reason.Absolutely, it's a feature of the DPI that most of the evidence (that we have) is ambiguous and can support several narratives. However the man who saw ALL the evidence said, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs, fire orbs. He repeated it 7 times in the Leninsky Put interview. So you have two choices. Either he was crazy or his opinion is based on convincing evidence we don't have.

You mean all your narratives are speculation.
The Hot Spot yes I have seen a photo but its difficult to say.
Not sure what you state is actually EVIDENCE regarding the footprints in the snow.
Yuri D foam on face EVIDENCE but doesnt state cause.
Yes I know people have talked about the ORANGE FACES but what about the OFFICIAL RECORD.
Lyudmila's face colour that could be explained by decompostion  !  ?
Yellow skin could be caused by decomposition ! ?
I wouldnt trust any Barrister at any time. And State Prosecutors also can leave a lot to be desired.
Iam not saying that the State prosecutor was CRAZY, just that I wouldnt TRUST WHAT HE STATED. But he may well have been correct regarding some kind of aerial phenomenon, which he described as FIRE ORBS, but may have been something else.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 21, 2018, 03:34:10 AM

You mean all your narratives are speculation.Everyone's narrative is speculation?

The Hot Spot yes I have seen a photo but its difficult to say.
Not sure what you state is actually EVIDENCE regarding the footprints in the snow.At least one expedition to the DP has tried to recreate the footsteps in cold powder and the wind blows them away within 24 hours.
Yuri D foam on face EVIDENCE but doesnt state cause.It's this speculation thingy again.

Yes I know people have talked about the ORANGE FACES but what about the OFFICIAL RECORD.The narrative is that the morgue photos and the pathologist's report don't show the dark orange faces because the reaction took place slowly mainly after the autopsies. Hence the pathologist didn't record them.

Lyudmila's face colour that could be explained by decompostion  !  ?
Yellow skin could be caused by decomposition ! ?It's possible but it would be all over? Not just the face and with a white chin?

I wouldnt trust any Barrister at any time. And State Prosecutors also can leave a lot to be desired.
For a practicing barrister to say "it must have been the fire orbs" is perhaps showing some character and regard for the truth...

Iam not saying that the State prosecutor was CRAZY, just that I wouldnt TRUST WHAT HE STATED. But he may well have been correct regarding some kind of aerial phenomenon, which he described as FIRE ORBS, but may have been something else.It could part of some elaborate coverup of course, in concert with his superior but my narrative chooses to believe them.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on December 22, 2018, 04:01:33 PM

You mean all your narratives are speculation.Everyone's narrative is speculation?

The Hot Spot yes I have seen a photo but its difficult to say.
Not sure what you state is actually EVIDENCE regarding the footprints in the snow.At least one expedition to the DP has tried to recreate the footsteps in cold powder and the wind blows them away within 24 hours.
Yuri D foam on face EVIDENCE but doesnt state cause.It's this speculation thingy again.

Yes I know people have talked about the ORANGE FACES but what about the OFFICIAL RECORD.The narrative is that the morgue photos and the pathologist's report don't show the dark orange faces because the reaction took place slowly mainly after the autopsies. Hence the pathologist didn't record them.

Lyudmila's face colour that could be explained by decompostion  !  ?
Yellow skin could be caused by decomposition ! ?It's possible but it would be all over? Not just the face and with a white chin?

I wouldnt trust any Barrister at any time. And State Prosecutors also can leave a lot to be desired.
For a practicing barrister to say "it must have been the fire orbs" is perhaps showing some character and regard for the truth...

Iam not saying that the State prosecutor was CRAZY, just that I wouldnt TRUST WHAT HE STATED. But he may well have been correct regarding some kind of aerial phenomenon, which he described as FIRE ORBS, but may have been something else.It could part of some elaborate coverup of course, in concert with his superior but my narrative chooses to believe them.

Nigel,  what about a chemical weapon test.  Rather than a nerve agent maybe some kind of noxious gas like NO2?  Then the rest of your theory would be more credible. Have you ever thought about the chemical weapon option?

My top candidates are

1. a weapon test possibly nuclear, but could be chemical
2. Murder
3. Infrasound and group induced panic
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 22, 2018, 07:11:50 PM

You mean all your narratives are speculation.Everyone's narrative is speculation?

The Hot Spot yes I have seen a photo but its difficult to say.
Not sure what you state is actually EVIDENCE regarding the footprints in the snow.At least one expedition to the DP has tried to recreate the footsteps in cold powder and the wind blows them away within 24 hours.
Yuri D foam on face EVIDENCE but doesnt state cause.It's this speculation thingy again.

Yes I know people have talked about the ORANGE FACES but what about the OFFICIAL RECORD.The narrative is that the morgue photos and the pathologist's report don't show the dark orange faces because the reaction took place slowly mainly after the autopsies. Hence the pathologist didn't record them.

Lyudmila's face colour that could be explained by decompostion  !  ?
Yellow skin could be caused by decomposition ! ?It's possible but it would be all over? Not just the face and with a white chin?

I wouldnt trust any Barrister at any time. And State Prosecutors also can leave a lot to be desired.
For a practicing barrister to say "it must have been the fire orbs" is perhaps showing some character and regard for the truth...

Iam not saying that the State prosecutor was CRAZY, just that I wouldnt TRUST WHAT HE STATED. But he may well have been correct regarding some kind of aerial phenomenon, which he described as FIRE ORBS, but may have been something else.It could part of some elaborate coverup of course, in concert with his superior but my narrative chooses to believe them.

A narrative is not speculation if it includes real evidence.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 23, 2018, 07:08:35 AM
A narrative is not speculation if it includes real evidence.
The NO2 narrative fits the evidence better than other?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 23, 2018, 07:02:46 PM
A narrative is not speculation if it includes real evidence.
The NO2 narrative fits the evidence better than other?

Well you said it,  i e,  FITS THE EVIDENCE.  In other words it is not the EVIDENCE.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 24, 2018, 04:15:55 AM
A narrative is not speculation if it includes real evidence.
The NO2 narrative fits the evidence better than other?

Well you said it,  i e,  FITS THE EVIDENCE.  In other words it is not the EVIDENCE.
No the narrative attempts to explain the evidence ....?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on December 24, 2018, 09:40:00 AM
Quote
The hot spot appears on the relevant photo? You must have seen it? The rescue team reported the sastrugi.

Fake news. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 25, 2018, 05:51:22 PM
A narrative is not speculation if it includes real evidence.
The NO2 narrative fits the evidence better than other?

Well you said it,  i e,  FITS THE EVIDENCE.  In other words it is not the EVIDENCE.
No the narrative attempts to explain the evidence ....?

What EVIDENCE  !  ?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 26, 2018, 06:00:51 AM
All the DPI evidence fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 26, 2018, 04:26:31 PM
All the DPI evidence fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.

Can you be SPECIFIC about the EVIDENCE  !  ?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 27, 2018, 05:10:25 AM
All the DPI evidence fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.

Can you be SPECIFIC about the EVIDENCE  !  ?
I'm not going to repeat myself, see my post #83.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 27, 2018, 05:16:20 AM

You mean all your narratives are speculation.Everyone's narrative is speculation?

The Hot Spot yes I have seen a photo but its difficult to say.
Not sure what you state is actually EVIDENCE regarding the footprints in the snow.At least one expedition to the DP has tried to recreate the footsteps in cold powder and the wind blows them away within 24 hours.
Yuri D foam on face EVIDENCE but doesnt state cause.It's this speculation thingy again.

Yes I know people have talked about the ORANGE FACES but what about the OFFICIAL RECORD.The narrative is that the morgue photos and the pathologist's report don't show the dark orange faces because the reaction took place slowly mainly after the autopsies. Hence the pathologist didn't record them.

Lyudmila's face colour that could be explained by decompostion  !  ?
Yellow skin could be caused by decomposition ! ?It's possible but it would be all over? Not just the face and with a white chin?

I wouldnt trust any Barrister at any time. And State Prosecutors also can leave a lot to be desired.
For a practicing barrister to say "it must have been the fire orbs" is perhaps showing some character and regard for the truth...

Iam not saying that the State prosecutor was CRAZY, just that I wouldnt TRUST WHAT HE STATED. But he may well have been correct regarding some kind of aerial phenomenon, which he described as FIRE ORBS, but may have been something else.It could part of some elaborate coverup of course, in concert with his superior but my narrative chooses to believe them.

Nigel,  what about a chemical weapon test.  Rather than a nerve agent maybe some kind of noxious gas like NO2?  Then the rest of your theory would be more credible. Have you ever thought about the chemical weapon option?

My top candidates are

1. a weapon test possibly nuclear, but could be chemical
2. Murder
3. Infrasound and group induced panic


A man made version of no2 would be best explained as rocket fuel. But rocket fuel or weapon versions of the narrative would be too transient. The high winds would disperse the gas too quickly.  High winds producing microwaves would be persistent and is the better theory.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 27, 2018, 03:02:04 PM
All the DPI evidence fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.

Can you be SPECIFIC about the EVIDENCE  !  ?
I'm not going to repeat myself, see my post #83.

Ok. I see what you are getting at.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 27, 2018, 03:11:11 PM
All the DPI evidence fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.
Might fit the theory. You can not say with absolute certainty that all the Dyatlov Pass Incident EVIDENCE fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 28, 2018, 02:37:01 AM
Might fit the theory. You can not say with absolute certainty that all the Dyatlov Pass Incident EVIDENCE fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.
Yes i can. Maybe we have a different understanding of what "fit" means in this context.
Strictly speaking it's the NO2 + N2O theory, nitrogen dioxide and nitrous oxide can explain all the evidence wrt the DPI except for the ravine injuries.

Now about the ravine injuries....
One of the theories to explain them is as i have already discussed - ball lightning rollers. This would be a fit on two counts (1) it explains Ivanov's obsession with "fire orbs". (2) the source of these would be from the same electro magnetic processes that explain the NO2/N2O and which imo were photographed by Semyon.

But it occurs to me that there is another theory concerning nitrous oxide....


Nitrous oxide (N2O) is heavier than air and has a boiling point of -90C and is of course heavily intoxicating to the extent that you can lose control of your limbs.

Now if the gas is unaffected by the cold and is heavier than air and is being produced at the top of the hill, it follows that it will obey gravity and travel down the hill.


Q. And what is at the bottom of this particular hill?

A. The ravine....

Q. And where is there a concentration of bodies?
A. In the ravine....

So maybe there is a theory here. The heavier than air N2O gas would end up in the ravine and displace most/all of the air creating a much higher concentration. So anyone near it's edge could suffer sudden and complete loss of control and fall into the ravine. Maybe one after the other like lemmings going over a cliff... So the first to fall would be injured by the second, the third would injure the first and second etc. The argument against the "falling theory" has been that people instinctively would put their hands out to protect themselves and hence you would need to see appropriate injuries (broken hands/arms/legs) for the theory to hold but N2O allows us to consider them falling without that control, like unconscious dummies landing on top of each other. This helps explain why some pathologists consider the injury profile to be from more than one event. Semyon's exhumation discovered that the pathologist had missed a fractured shoulder blade and he must have been lying on his back when his chest was crushed?
So here's a narrative.
They decide to build a den in the ravine which results in the discovered work.They go for a walk maybe to collect more branches/twigs etc.Up to this point the N2O concentration has been minimal.Now it strengthens and displaces all the air in the ravine and at the side/edge.The group return through the forest perhaps walking closely in single file.
As they reach the ravine edge they suffer immediate loss of control and fall in landing on top of each other. It could be that they slide down a steep slope picking up speed and momentum before reaching the actual drop.
The first to fall suffer the worst injuries, the last to fall the least which could include "combat injuries". Rustem has a fractured skull and internal bleeding that will cause him to give up relatively soon. Nicolai's head has been pushed into the ice so hard one side of the skull has caved in.
Now the N2O clears as it continues flowing down the ravine under gravity.There are only three able bodied survivors, Zina, Igor and Rustem.They lay the dead and injured in a row to assist them and try and conserve heat. As members die clothing is moved to the living. This includes scavenging from the 2 Yuris.
It is decided that they must try and retrieve more clothing/blankets etc from the tent if the injured have any chance. Semyon is still conscious and attempting to make notes.Zina and Rustem start the uphill journey. However Rustem cannot handle it and lies down in the snow. Zina adjusts his cap and heads off. However she has been affected by the NO2 -> nitric acid reaction and her cardio vascular abilities are much reduced to the extent that she has to crawl to try and continue until the crawling comes to a halt and she succumbs to the cold.
Igor waits for their return which never happens. Eventually he makes his way back but he to is affected by the NO2 and hasn't the strength for the incline. The lack of cardio vascular ability of the "returning three" explains the close grouping, they are all found within 300 metres of each other. Presumably as the incline steepens.

So now the NO2/N2O theory explains all the DPI evidence, every single item....


 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1 loco1




Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 28, 2018, 06:10:15 PM
Might fit the theory. You can not say with absolute certainty that all the Dyatlov Pass Incident EVIDENCE fits the NO2 theory except for the ravine injuries.
Yes i can. Maybe we have a different understanding of what "fit" means in this context.
Strictly speaking it's the NO2 + N2O theory, nitrogen dioxide and nitrous oxide can explain all the evidence wrt the DPI except for the ravine injuries.

Now about the ravine injuries....
One of the theories to explain them is as i have already discussed - ball lightning rollers. This would be a fit on two counts (1) it explains Ivanov's obsession with "fire orbs". (2) the source of these would be from the same electro magnetic processes that explain the NO2/N2O and which imo were photographed by Semyon.

But it occurs to me that there is another theory concerning nitrous oxide....


Nitrous oxide (N2O) is heavier than air and has a boiling point of -90C and is of course heavily intoxicating to the extent that you can lose control of your limbs.

Now if the gas is unaffected by the cold and is heavier than air and is being produced at the top of the hill, it follows that it will obey gravity and travel down the hill.


Q. And what is at the bottom of this particular hill?

A. The ravine....

Q. And where is there a concentration of bodies?
A. In the ravine....

So maybe there is a theory here. The heavier than air N2O gas would end up in the ravine and displace most/all of the air creating a much higher concentration. So anyone near it's edge could suffer sudden and complete loss of control and fall into the ravine. Maybe one after the other like lemmings going over a cliff... So the first to fall would be injured by the second, the third would injure the first and second etc. The argument against the "falling theory" has been that people instinctively would put their hands out to protect themselves and hence you would need to see appropriate injuries (broken hands/arms/legs) for the theory to hold but N2O allows us to consider them falling without that control, like unconscious dummies landing on top of each other. This helps explain why some pathologists consider the injury profile to be from more than one event. Semyon's exhumation discovered that the pathologist had missed a fractured shoulder blade and he must have been lying on his back when his chest was crushed?
So here's a narrative.
They decide to build a den in the ravine which results in the discovered work.They go for a walk maybe to collect more branches/twigs etc.Up to this point the N2O concentration has been minimal.Now it strengthens and displaces all the air in the ravine and at the side/edge.The group return through the forest perhaps walking closely in single file.
As they reach the ravine edge they suffer immediate loss of control and fall in landing on top of each other. It could be that they slide down a steep slope picking up speed and momentum before reaching the actual drop.
The first to fall suffer the worst injuries, the last to fall the least which could include "combat injuries". Rustem has a fractured skull and internal bleeding that will cause him to give up relatively soon. Nicolai's head has been pushed into the ice so hard one side of the skull has caved in.
Now the N2O clears as it continues flowing down the ravine under gravity.There are only three able bodied survivors, Zina, Igor and Rustem.They lay the dead and injured in a row to assist them and try and conserve heat. As members die clothing is moved to the living. This includes scavenging from the 2 Yuris.
It is decided that they must try and retrieve more clothing/blankets etc from the tent if the injured have any chance. Semyon is still conscious and attempting to make notes.Zina and Rustem start the uphill journey. However Rustem cannot handle it and lies down in the snow. Zina adjusts his cap and heads off. However she has been affected by the NO2 -> nitric acid reaction and her cardio vascular abilities are much reduced to the extent that she has to crawl to try and continue until the crawling comes to a halt and she succumbs to the cold.
Igor waits for their return which never happens. Eventually he makes his way back but he to is affected by the NO2 and hasn't the strength for the incline. The lack of cardio vascular ability of the "returning three" explains the close grouping, they are all found within 300 metres of each other. Presumably as the incline steepens.

So now the NO2/N2O theory explains all the DPI evidence, every single item....


 This is a confusing theory to say the least. May be its time to move on. You have no proof any way.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 29, 2018, 03:04:05 AM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....



Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on December 30, 2018, 10:18:59 AM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on December 30, 2018, 01:29:22 PM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.


Yes his theory is the one to beat.


I'm happy to debate his theory but i wont be moving on from it.


He and the Central Committee saw some evidence (hidden from us) that made them act in the way they did.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 02, 2019, 04:59:04 PM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.


Yes his theory is the one to beat.


I'm happy to debate his theory but i wont be moving on from it.


He and the Central Committee saw some evidence (hidden from us) that made them act in the way they did.

So if they saw some evidence that made them act in the way they did, how can we know what that evidence was  !  ? 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 03, 2019, 02:25:16 AM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.


Yes his theory is the one to beat.


I'm happy to debate his theory but i wont be moving on from it.


He and the Central Committee saw some evidence (hidden from us) that made them act in the way they did.

So if they saw some evidence that made them act in the way they did, how can we know what that evidence was  !  ?


Because in the 1990s (when he was no longer afraid for his life in speaking out) he said it must have been the fire orbs.


So a question for you. Where do you think he got that evidence from? For fire orbs?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 04, 2019, 07:38:25 AM
Quote
So now the NO2/N2O theory explains all the DPI evidence, every single item....

Except of course why they left the tent to begin with in a calm/orderly fashion, and how the piloted fireball 'got' the 2 Yuris.     nose1

One major thing here I believe you to be overlooking......  wind.  It will easily disperse/dilute and thin out any and all gasses.  You seem to be under the impression this environment was like a controlled lab in which no wind etc exists.  In order for this gas plume to travel taking the path of least resistance provided by gravity and maintain any significant density, you will need....... no wind.

Secondly,  If this gas plume was toxic enough to kill smog ingesting tobacco smoking humans, you bet your azz the entire width and breadth of the plume would kill every single living varmint and insect.  Where is the path of death carved out by this thing?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 04, 2019, 07:40:30 AM
Quote
So a question for you. Where do you think he got that evidence from? For fire orbs?

Let us be clear.....

Ivanov the incompetent said it was PILOTED FIRE BALLS
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 04, 2019, 08:01:45 AM
NO wind


https://youtu.be/YEPNYRD09es
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 04, 2019, 08:28:44 AM
Quote
So now the NO2/N2O theory explains all the DPI evidence, every single item....

Except of course why the left the tent to begin with in a calm/orderly fashion, and how the piloted fireball 'got' the 2 Yuris.     nose1
Happy New Year!  loco1 They didn't leave the tent in an orderly fashion? No footwear, Rustem only wearing one boot? Doesn't seem orderly to me...  dance1
Once they had got some distance from the tent Shavarin says that they seem to have stood in a (orderly) line. It all fits with the narrative. The plume changed direction in the wind and enveloped the tent, they have to immediately escape to better air, then they stand and consider their options. Perhaps Yuri D attempted to return and died for it.
My narrative doesn't have piloted fireballs that get the 2 Yuris.

One major thing here I believe you to be overlooking......  wind.  It will easily disperse/dilute and thin out any and all gasses.  You seem to be under the impression this environment was like a controlled lab in which no wind etc exists.  In order for this gas plume to travel taking the path of least resistance provided by gravity and maintain any significant density, you will need....... no wind.
No the narrative is that the (high) winds were from the West so the eastern side below the ridge would be more sheltered. There can still be wind, although it's my understanding that there would be little wind by the cedar.

Secondly,  If this gas plume was toxic enough to kill smog ingesting tobacco smoking humans, you bet your azz the entire width and breadth of the plume would kill every single living varmint and insect.  Where is the path of death carved out by this thing?Do you recall that an unusual number of dead birds were found?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 04, 2019, 08:32:08 AM
NO wind


https://youtu.be/YEPNYRD09es (https://youtu.be/YEPNYRD09es)
Yes my N2O theory for the ravine has it that it filled up with N2O (right up to the tops of the trees) displacing the breathable air. Then they fell in on top of each other without attempting to break their falls with their arms. Alexander goes in head first?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 04, 2019, 08:32:24 AM
Quote
Do you recall that an unusual number of dead birds were found?

More fake news....  Your referring to a picture of the search crew holding birds they killed for.... dinner.    bat1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 04, 2019, 08:36:20 AM
Quote
Yes my N2O theory for the ravine has it that it filled up with N2O (right up to the tops of the trees) displacing the breathable air.

And... for this to happen as you say, there would need to be little to no wind.

Does this look like a no-wind situation to you?

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-32.jpg)


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-12.jpg)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 04, 2019, 10:03:48 AM
Quote
Do you recall that an unusual number of dead birds were found?

More fake news....  Your referring to a picture of the search crew holding birds they killed for.... dinner.    bat1


Now if only the local people gave the hill a suitable name, something like "Dead Mountain" that would fit my theory perfectly....
 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 04, 2019, 10:04:57 AM
Quote
Yes my N2O theory for the ravine has it that it filled up with N2O (right up to the tops of the trees) displacing the breathable air.

And... for this to happen as you say, there would need to be little to no wind.

Does this look like a no-wind situation to you?

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-32.jpg)


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-12.jpg)


Definitely a some wind situation...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 04, 2019, 10:26:17 AM
Quote
Do you recall that an unusual number of dead birds were found?

More fake news....  Your referring to a picture of the search crew holding birds they killed for.... dinner.    bat1


Now if only the local people gave the hill a suitable name, something like "Dead Mountain" that would fit my theory perfectly....
 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1

More fake news folks....    The mountain got its name because there is no game or vegetation in which to hunt/gather.  Not because Piloted Fire Balls chase/kill everything living there.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 04, 2019, 01:07:42 PM
Quote
Do you recall that an unusual number of dead birds were found?

More fake news....  Your referring to a picture of the search crew holding birds they killed for.... dinner.    bat1


Now if only the local people gave the hill a suitable name, something like "Dead Mountain" that would fit my theory perfectly....
 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1

More fake news folks....    The mountain got its name because there is no game or vegetation in which to hunt/gather.  Not because Piloted Fire Balls chase/kill everything living there.


Or occasional doses of poison gas.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 04, 2019, 02:23:17 PM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.


Yes his theory is the one to beat.


I'm happy to debate his theory but i wont be moving on from it.


He and the Central Committee saw some evidence (hidden from us) that made them act in the way they did.

So if they saw some evidence that made them act in the way they did, how can we know what that evidence was  !  ?


Because in the 1990s (when he was no longer afraid for his life in speaking out) he said it must have been the fire orbs.


So a question for you. Where do you think he got that evidence from? For fire orbs?
 

But where is the evidence for the so called 'Fire Orbs'  !  ?  Lights seen in the sky do not mean that they were 'Fire Orbs'. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 04, 2019, 02:30:00 PM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.


Yes his theory is the one to beat.


I'm happy to debate his theory but i wont be moving on from it.


He and the Central Committee saw some evidence (hidden from us) that made them act in the way they did.

So if they saw some evidence that made them act in the way they did, how can we know what that evidence was  !  ?


Because in the 1990s (when he was no longer afraid for his life in speaking out) he said it must have been the fire orbs.


So a question for you. Where do you think he got that evidence from? For fire orbs?
 

But where is the evidence for the so called 'Fire Orbs'  !  ?  Lights seen in the sky do not mean that they were 'Fire Orbs'.
Unbelievable.....
 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 07, 2019, 02:11:36 PM
Move on? I'm building on the #1 theory for the DPI, Ivanov's fire orbs.


He saw all the evidence.....

Presumably  #1  means number one theory.  Well I suppose thats debatable. Any way we dont know for certain whether or not Ivanov did see all the evidence.


Yes his theory is the one to beat.


I'm happy to debate his theory but i wont be moving on from it.


He and the Central Committee saw some evidence (hidden from us) that made them act in the way they did.

So if they saw some evidence that made them act in the way they did, how can we know what that evidence was  !  ?


Because in the 1990s (when he was no longer afraid for his life in speaking out) he said it must have been the fire orbs.


So a question for you. Where do you think he got that evidence from? For fire orbs?
 

But where is the evidence for the so called 'Fire Orbs'  !  ?  Lights seen in the sky do not mean that they were 'Fire Orbs'.
Unbelievable.....
 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1 bang1

Unbelievable is not the answer to the question  !  ?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 08, 2019, 04:22:59 PM
Hi there.

I'm open minded about the source of the gas but it's true that high winds in a snowstorm create good electrical conditions and of course BL is a solution for the ravine deaths.

But i think the NO2 is the one to beat given that it fits well with the DPI also explains some unusual features of Chivruay (also high winds 50m/s!).

Hi Nigel,

I am glad that you are open minded about the source of the no2. Also as I stated a while ago I like your lateral thinking even if it seems a bit off piste.  Reading through all of these posts has certainly given me a smile.

Anyway, as you may know I am not fixed on any particular theory yet, and am open to all ideas.  However one of the ideas I have been looking into is the military accident as per the topic I set up a while ago, although as presented there the theory is not really substantiated in any way.

It is interesting though that my investigation has led me independently to the possibility that the Dyatlov group were overcome by nitrogen dioxide gas.  However, the source is not ball lightning, so let's see how open minded you are about it?

Anyway, let's go back to the military accident. In my hypothesis on the night of 1st Feb 1959, it is possible that the military had chosen this area to test a low yield nuclear device.  Possibly a neutron bomb, possibly a trigger for a hydrog bomb.

On the night, the group set up camp probably had a meal and where settling in for the night.  I believe that at some point they noticed some strange activity going on in the sky.  I believ Semyon grabbed his camera and accompanied by several others went outside to observe and take some pictures.  Shot 1 of Semyons camera which is the only legible photo that was made available shows a large bright object filling the top left of the photo with 3 heads at the bottom of the shot.  This may have been the first detonation.  It may have been the only detonation too, but I doubt it.  A 1kt low yield device produced lethal radiation up to 1.2 km.  there would have been a shock wave but the over pressure would only be less than 5psi and not capable of causing significant injury to people, but it would have been a surprise nonetheless.  Next comes the wind blast.  This could have been up to 330m/s almost sonic speeds, but probably less where they were, but this could have picked some of them up and knocked them flying.  They could easily have picked up some significant injuries.

So nuclear device creates a fire ball.  This could easily have been up to about 500 metres in diameter.  A fire ball of 500m would be visible from 70km away as a fire orb about the size of the moon.  Obviously would depend on visibility etc that night.

Now comes the bit you may be interested in:

The 500m fire ball is mainly made of what? Yes - its nitrogen dioxide.  Pretty much all of the oxygen available in the fire ball could be converted into nitrogen dioxide.  This would be of very high concentration - of the order of 200,000 ppm no2.  Now even if this were diluted down it woulld still give about 40 cubic kilometres of gas with an LD50 concentration within an hour or two of exposure. (these are base on rough calculations).

So what happens to this fire ball of no2 gas.  Well the mushroom cloud and column would rise, possibly up to several thousand feet under normal STP conditions.  But this mushroom cloud is in a very very cold environment.  The cloud would cool very rapidly.  The No2 would condense into an aerosol, and maybe even freeze into tiny solid dust like particles.  No2 is heavier than air and certainly liquid droplets or solid dust will be much heavier, and the mushroom cloud and column could start to collapse back to the ground.  Kind of like pyro clastic flow from a volcano.  Is also possible that the air surrounding the no2 would still be relatively warm, being from a giant cooling fire ball.

Anyway, if the Dyatlov group were down wind of the cloud which would now be hugging the landscape like giant patch of foggy dust or as an aerosol they would be in big trouble.  It would certainly prompt them to vacate the tent and move down the slope away from the toxic dust/gas mixture if they were physically able to after the wind blast had hit them.

Kholat Syakhl may have been like the gates of Hades on 1st Feb 1959.  Would not have been a nice place to be.  Heat flash, lethal radiation, shock waves, hurricane force wind blasts, lethal cloud of radiative toxic no2 fog and to top it all off - lethal sub zero temperatures.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 09, 2019, 09:21:04 AM
Just to build on my post above I have done a slightly more technical analysis of Semyon’s photo (shot 1).  Assuming the photo was taken outside the tent. Towards the bottom of the photo there are three heads these are fairly level so assume camera was held level.  At the same level of the heads you can just make out the ground with significant contrast suggesting that above the ground level is the sky.  The angle of this ground is slightly sloping but quite level suggesting that the camera is pointing up the slope. I think the slope angle was about 30 degrees.  The large bright object that fills the left of the image appears to be about 10 degrees of arc on the sky. For a 500 metre fire ball that would place it about 2 to 3 km from the tent over the top and just behind Kholat Syakhl.  From what I have read on this forum the wind direction that night was down the slope roughly toward the cedar tree. That would put the Dyatlov group down wind of the fire ball and in line with a collapsing cloud of noxious NO2. 

The cloud being much heavier than air would form a blanket moving over the top of the mountain and around its sides.

The group in an attempt to escape this made their way down the slope.  If the toxic cloud hugged the ground like a blanket it would be worth looking for somewhere high that you could climb to get breathable air.  The cedar tree was a high spot.  Climb 5 metres to avoid cloud and hang on for as long as you can until cloud dispersed.  Maybe the cloud was too much for some of them and they fell.

By the time the cloud disperses some of the group have severe hypothermia. Now we need to build a fire to save their lives.  But it’s too late.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 09, 2019, 09:58:07 AM
Only issue is.... 

This picture

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg)



Is a blown up and highly manipulated section of this picture...

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-frame-34-hi-res.jpg)


And THAT picture wasn't taken by anyone of the Dyatlov group.

https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy?lid=1#zolotoryovcamera

Quote
The technician in the crime lab was given a camera with a film inside which he has to develop and give back to the investigators. Old cameras have film in a cartridge, the camera makes a photo by (1) pressing the shutter and then (2) using the film advance lever to draw next blank frame from the cartridge. Some people do (2) right after (1), some do (2) right before the the shot. The technician has no way of knowing if the camera is in position (1) or (2). Rewinding the film is only possible in position (1). The technician can either use the film advance lever which will not work if the camera is in position (2) or press the shutter which will not work if the camera is in position (1). Pushing the lever too hard can damage the film. Usually the lab technicians pressed the shutter and if doesn't go off then the film can be rewinded. If it does go off then the film can also be rewinded but the there is one last technological photo which captures whatever is in front at that particular moment - wall, ashtray, table, papers, and a lot of unidentifiable objects nearly always out of focus. The shutter of Krivonischenko's camera was cocked, so the notorious photo №34 came to life. Initially this frame was not presented in the investigation as pаrt of the film, and it should have remained that way, because introducing it at a later time inflated even further the monstrous significance that this photo is gaining.



Please read this in its entirety

https://dyatlovpass.com/frame-34
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 09, 2019, 10:08:11 AM
Now that your familiar with that......  Behold the proof this was the LAST picture taken on this particular roll of film.

The negatives in order they were taken left/right top/bottom.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-film1.jpg)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 09, 2019, 10:53:27 AM
Hi there.

I'm open minded about the source of the gas but it's true that high winds in a snowstorm create good electrical conditions and of course BL is a solution for the ravine deaths.

But i think the NO2 is the one to beat given that it fits well with the DPI also explains some unusual features of Chivruay (also high winds 50m/s!).

Hi Nigel,

I am glad that you are open minded about the source of the no2. Also as I stated a while ago I like your lateral thinking even if it seems a bit off piste.  Reading through all of these posts has certainly given me a smile.

Anyway, as you may know I am not fixed on any particular theory yet, and am open to all ideas.  However one of the ideas I have been looking into is the military accident as per the topic I set up a while ago, although as presented there the theory is not really substantiated in any way.

It is interesting though that my investigation has led me independently to the possibility that the Dyatlov group were overcome by nitrogen dioxide gas.  However, the source is not ball lightning, so let's see how open minded you are about it?

Anyway, let's go back to the military accident. In my hypothesis on the night of 1st Feb 1959, it is possible that the military had chosen this area to test a low yield nuclear device.  Possibly a neutron bomb, possibly a trigger for a hydrog bomb.

On the night, the group set up camp probably had a meal and where settling in for the night.  I believe that at some point they noticed some strange activity going on in the sky.  I believ Semyon grabbed his camera and accompanied by several others went outside to observe and take some pictures.  Shot 1 of Semyons camera which is the only legible photo that was made available shows a large bright object filling the top left of the photo with 3 heads at the bottom of the shot.  This may have been the first detonation.  It may have been the only detonation too, but I doubt it.  A 1kt low yield device produced lethal radiation up to 1.2 km.  there would have been a shock wave but the over pressure would only be less than 5psi and not capable of causing significant injury to people, but it would have been a surprise nonetheless.  Next comes the wind blast.  This could have been up to 330m/s almost sonic speeds, but probably less where they were, but this could have picked some of them up and knocked them flying.  They could easily have picked up some significant injuries.

So nuclear device creates a fire ball.  This could easily have been up to about 500 metres in diameter.  A fire ball of 500m would be visible from 70km away as a fire orb about the size of the moon.  Obviously would depend on visibility etc that night.

Now comes the bit you may be interested in:

The 500m fire ball is mainly made of what? Yes - its nitrogen dioxide.  Pretty much all of the oxygen available in the fire ball could be converted into nitrogen dioxide.  This would be of very high concentration - of the order of 200,000 ppm no2.  Now even if this were diluted down it woulld still give about 40 cubic kilometres of gas with an LD50 concentration within an hour or two of exposure. (these are base on rough calculations).

So what happens to this fire ball of no2 gas.  Well the mushroom cloud and column would rise, possibly up to several thousand feet under normal STP conditions.  But this mushroom cloud is in a very very cold environment.  The cloud would cool very rapidly.  The No2 would condense into an aerosol, and maybe even freeze into tiny solid dust like particles.  No2 is heavier than air and certainly liquid droplets or solid dust will be much heavier, and the mushroom cloud and column could start to collapse back to the ground.  Kind of like pyro clastic flow from a volcano.  Is also possible that the air surrounding the no2 would still be relatively warm, being from a giant cooling fire ball.

Anyway, if the Dyatlov group were down wind of the cloud which would now be hugging the landscape like giant patch of foggy dust or as an aerosol they would be in big trouble.  It would certainly prompt them to vacate the tent and move down the slope away from the toxic dust/gas mixture if they were physically able to after the wind blast had hit them.

Kholat Syakhl may have been like the gates of Hades on 1st Feb 1959.  Would not have been a nice place to be.  Heat flash, lethal radiation, shock waves, hurricane force wind blasts, lethal cloud of radiative toxic no2 fog and to top it all off - lethal sub zero temperatures.
I would struggle with the idea that there would be military testing so close to populated areas when there is the whole of Northern Siberia to use = google Tsar Bomba.

I think the NO2 theory - "acrid gas forcing them to immediately exit the tent and dark orange brown hands and faces developing after the morgue photos" is probably the one to beat. Now as for the source of the NO2, well i like an explanation that explains Ivanov's fire orbs but there are other sources such as rocket fuel which incidentally could include nitrous oxide - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide_fuel_blend as well as NO2 derived from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_tetroxide.
Both theories allow for the extended production of nitrogen oxides over a lengthy period (crashed rocket leaking fuel over time). However the electro magnetic  theory has the advantage that it would create a lot of hot air and this seems to fit the facts very well, sastrugi, hot spot, persistent footsteps, lack of frostbite, compacted snow in ravine. Also the crashed rocket theory needs a huge an immediate cleanup operation unless it gets buried in the snow - possible but rockets tend to be rather big.... So imo the electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 09, 2019, 11:07:48 AM
Quote
dark orange brown hands and faces developing after the morgue photos

Fake news.    bat1     This is something completely unverified and undocumented as having any basis in fact.

Besides......  morgue makeup artist.  Prove me wrong. 


Quote
electro magnetic  theory has the advantage that it would create a lot of hot air and this seems to fit the facts very well, sastrugi, hot spot, persistent footsteps, lack of frostbite,

Oh for the love of Sam Houston.....  where do I even begin?  All of these false fact have been debunked, but yet you regurgitate them as being true factual evidence.  You want them to be true, I get it, but you need to stop asserting wild unsubstantiated conjecture as facts. It does a great disservice to the community and misleads unsuspecting readers. 


Quote
Also the crashed rocket theory needs a huge an immediate cleanup operation unless it gets buried in the snow - possible but rockets tend to be rather big.... So imo the electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.

More BS.....   A rocket could have landed MILES away from the tourist in which there would be nothing on-site to hide or cleanup/remove.  This is neither here, nor there because you haven't provided any evidence that Piloted Fire Balls caused this to begin with. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 09, 2019, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from Nigel Evans  [[  I think the NO2 theory - "acrid gas forcing them to immediately exit the tent and dark orange brown hands and faces developing after the morgue photos" is probably the one to beat. Now as for the source of the NO2, well i like an explanation that explains Ivanov's fire orbs but there are other sources such as rocket fuel which incidentally could include nitrous oxide - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide_fuel_blend as well as NO2 derived from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_tetroxide.
Both theories allow for the extended production of nitrogen oxides over a lengthy period (crashed rocket leaking fuel over time). However the electro magnetic  theory has the advantage that it would create a lot of hot air and this seems to fit the facts very well, sastrugi, hot spot, persistent footsteps, lack of frostbite, compacted snow in ravine. Also the crashed rocket theory needs a huge an immediate cleanup operation unless it gets buried in the snow - possible but rockets tend to be rather big.... So imo the electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.  ]]


It is incorrect to suggest that one theory is better than another when so much evidence is missing etc. Therefore it is incorrect to say that your electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.
 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 09, 2019, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from Nigel Evans  [[  I think the NO2 theory - "acrid gas forcing them to immediately exit the tent and dark orange brown hands and faces developing after the morgue photos" is probably the one to beat. Now as for the source of the NO2, well i like an explanation that explains Ivanov's fire orbs but there are other sources such as rocket fuel which incidentally could include nitrous oxide - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide_fuel_blend (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide_fuel_blend) as well as NO2 derived from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_tetroxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_tetroxide).
Both theories allow for the extended production of nitrogen oxides over a lengthy period (crashed rocket leaking fuel over time). However the electro magnetic  theory has the advantage that it would create a lot of hot air and this seems to fit the facts very well, sastrugi, hot spot, persistent footsteps, lack of frostbite, compacted snow in ravine. Also the crashed rocket theory needs a huge an immediate cleanup operation unless it gets buried in the snow - possible but rockets tend to be rather big.... So imo the electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.  ]]


It is incorrect to suggest that one theory is better than another when so much evidence is missing etc. Therefore it is incorrect to say that your electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.
What evidence is missing?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 09, 2019, 01:59:38 PM
All of it.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 09, 2019, 02:34:07 PM
Now that your familiar with that......  Behold the proof this was the LAST picture taken on this particular roll of film.

The negatives in order they were taken left/right top/bottom.


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-film1.jpg)

Hi LC,

I had a look at those links.  I couldn't really see anything that suggested that zolotoryevs photo 1 was a blown up section of frame 34?  I have read them before but didn't recal that.  I am looking in the wrong spot?

The section that ai had read that prompted me to reference Semyon's photo 1 was this:



Here follows an excerpt from Keith **** "Journey to Dyatlov Pass: An Explanation of the Mystery":
The “Zolotarev strip” of film had ten frames in it and the cut edge matched the previous strip which had 17 frames. This previous strip of 17 frames covered pictures that Zolotarev had taken in earlier days. Both strips were free from emulsion damage but there was a small section of underdeveloped film on the ten frame strip due to the layers of film getting stuck together in the developing tank. The most glaring item to begin with, in the examination of Zolotarev’s film, was that nine frames were missing. There should have been a total of 36 frames but the two strips only had a total of 27 frames. So where were the missing nine frames? Whilst the dedicated conspiracy theorist can look for any evidence that points to a cover up of some kind, it could have been that the remaining strip or strips of nine frames had been lost. This is quite possible as there seemed to have been no formal cataloging of all the items. Valentin Yakimenko felt that these missing frames contained important information and may have been “withheld” for that reason. The fact that these nine frames may have contained potentially important information will shortly be demonstrated because on the face of it, Zolotarev was taking pictures outside the tent that night (1/ 2 February 1959) right up to the last moment before whatever event caused the tragedy started.
First photo looks like a shot of a very large and intensely bright object above the heads of three of the group members. This I can see. The rest of the interpretations of the shots are in the realm of psychic photography.
Psychic Photography
The frames are shown in the appendix of British author and researcher Keith **** 2nd book "Journey to Dyatlov Pass". Valentin Yakimenko, who was a fellow student to the Dyatlov group and a member of the rescue team, presented at the Ural Federal University at the annual Dyatlov Conference 2015 examination of the films in the group cameras. He claims Zolotaryov grabbed his camera to take a picture of some lights in the sky. According to Yakimenko two of the negatives seem to depict a section of rocket or plane which may have broken off after a failed military experiment of possibly a two stage rocket launch.
Yakimenko says that the film was scrawled with Zolotaryov's name while non of the other films was tagged or labeled. We only lately speculate about the authorship of the photos on the films, so the fact that the only camera that was found on somebody's body was good enough reason to inscribe it. I don't think that reasons to allude there was special attention to that particular film.
"These photographs are a clear indication, of fallen angel/higher level demonic involvement, several of which, appear to capture, a partial physical manifestation, of a higher level, shape shifting demon... Yakimenko describes some of the photos as having 'A small, but very bright object', or being 'A bright little dot', which is typical of fallen angels and/or higher level demons, manifesting in orb form, that people mistakenly refer to as aliens or UFOs." Author Cora Hull Fallen Angels Exposed.
 

1 - Three heads

2 - Woven mesh

3 - Lynx

4 - Horn

5 - Jaws

6 - Mushroom with a face

7 - Eagle 1 Light

8 - Eagle 2 light

9 - Chicken

10 - Plane 1

11 - Plane 2
Please note that the images above, besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo.
 


Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 09, 2019, 03:09:35 PM
Hi there.

I'm open minded about the source of the gas but it's true that high winds in a snowstorm create good electrical conditions and of course BL is a solution for the ravine deaths.

But i think the NO2 is the one to beat given that it fits well with the DPI also explains some unusual features of Chivruay (also high winds 50m/s!).

Hi Nigel,

I am glad that you are open minded about the source of the no2. Also as I stated a while ago I like your lateral thinking even if it seems a bit off piste.  Reading through all of these posts has certainly given me a smile.

Anyway, as you may know I am not fixed on any particular theory yet, and am open to all ideas.  However one of the ideas I have been looking into is the military accident as per the topic I set up a while ago, although as presented there the theory is not really substantiated in any way.

It is interesting though that my investigation has led me independently to the possibility that the Dyatlov group were overcome by nitrogen dioxide gas.  However, the source is not ball lightning, so let's see how open minded you are about it?

Anyway, let's go back to the military accident. In my hypothesis on the night of 1st Feb 1959, it is possible that the military had chosen this area to test a low yield nuclear device.  Possibly a neutron bomb, possibly a trigger for a hydrog bomb.

On the night, the group set up camp probably had a meal and where settling in for the night.  I believe that at some point they noticed some strange activity going on in the sky.  I believ Semyon grabbed his camera and accompanied by several others went outside to observe and take some pictures.  Shot 1 of Semyons camera which is the only legible photo that was made available shows a large bright object filling the top left of the photo with 3 heads at the bottom of the shot.  This may have been the first detonation.  It may have been the only detonation too, but I doubt it.  A 1kt low yield device produced lethal radiation up to 1.2 km.  there would have been a shock wave but the over pressure would only be less than 5psi and not capable of causing significant injury to people, but it would have been a surprise nonetheless.  Next comes the wind blast.  This could have been up to 330m/s almost sonic speeds, but probably less where they were, but this could have picked some of them up and knocked them flying.  They could easily have picked up some significant injuries.

So nuclear device creates a fire ball.  This could easily have been up to about 500 metres in diameter.  A fire ball of 500m would be visible from 70km away as a fire orb about the size of the moon.  Obviously would depend on visibility etc that night.

Now comes the bit you may be interested in:

The 500m fire ball is mainly made of what? Yes - its nitrogen dioxide.  Pretty much all of the oxygen available in the fire ball could be converted into nitrogen dioxide.  This would be of very high concentration - of the order of 200,000 ppm no2.  Now even if this were diluted down it woulld still give about 40 cubic kilometres of gas with an LD50 concentration within an hour or two of exposure. (these are base on rough calculations).

So what happens to this fire ball of no2 gas.  Well the mushroom cloud and column would rise, possibly up to several thousand feet under normal STP conditions.  But this mushroom cloud is in a very very cold environment.  The cloud would cool very rapidly.  The No2 would condense into an aerosol, and maybe even freeze into tiny solid dust like particles.  No2 is heavier than air and certainly liquid droplets or solid dust will be much heavier, and the mushroom cloud and column could start to collapse back to the ground.  Kind of like pyro clastic flow from a volcano.  Is also possible that the air surrounding the no2 would still be relatively warm, being from a giant cooling fire ball.

Anyway, if the Dyatlov group were down wind of the cloud which would now be hugging the landscape like giant patch of foggy dust or as an aerosol they would be in big trouble.  It would certainly prompt them to vacate the tent and move down the slope away from the toxic dust/gas mixture if they were physically able to after the wind blast had hit them.

Kholat Syakhl may have been like the gates of Hades on 1st Feb 1959.  Would not have been a nice place to be.  Heat flash, lethal radiation, shock waves, hurricane force wind blasts, lethal cloud of radiative toxic no2 fog and to top it all off - lethal sub zero temperatures.
I would struggle with the idea that there would be military testing so close to populated areas when there is the whole of Northern Siberia to use = google Tsar Bomba.

I think the NO2 theory - "acrid gas forcing them to immediately exit the tent and dark orange brown hands and faces developing after the morgue photos" is probably the one to beat. Now as for the source of the NO2, well i like an explanation that explains Ivanov's fire orbs but there are other sources such as rocket fuel which incidentally could include nitrous oxide - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide_fuel_blend as well as NO2 derived from - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinitrogen_tetroxide.
Both theories allow for the extended production of nitrogen oxides over a lengthy period (crashed rocket leaking fuel over time). However the electro magnetic  theory has the advantage that it would create a lot of hot air and this seems to fit the facts very well, sastrugi, hot spot, persistent footsteps, lack of frostbite, compacted snow in ravine. Also the crashed rocket theory needs a huge an immediate cleanup operation unless it gets buried in the snow - possible but rockets tend to be rather big.... So imo the electro magnetic theory is the one to beat.

Would have been "a blast" for the lads who fuelled up the rockets with nitrous oxide.  I would certainly use an anaesthetic substance  capable of impairing people's judgement whilst they were working with the missile arsenal as a fuel.  whacky1

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 09, 2019, 05:24:16 PM
Quote
Hi LC,

I had a look at those links.  I couldn't really see anything that suggested that zolotoryevs photo 1 was a blown up section of frame 34?  I have read them before but didn't recal that.  I am looking in the wrong spot?

#1

Burn the book?


#2

Its not zolotoryevs photo.


#3

All you have to do is look at the picture. You will see the  "3 heads" at the bottom right.  This is a lighter version from the negative.  Its also in the link I gave you.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-34.jpg

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-frame-34-02.jpg)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 09, 2019, 11:44:20 PM
Quote
Hi LC,

I had a look at those links.  I couldn't really see anything that suggested that zolotoryevs photo 1 was a blown up section of frame 34?  I have read them before but didn't recal that.  I am looking in the wrong spot?

#1

Burn the book?


#2

Its not zolotoryevs photo.


#3

All you have to do is look at the picture. You will see the  "3 heads" at the bottom right.  This is a lighter version from the negative.  Its also in the link I gave you.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-34.jpg

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-frame-34-02.jpg)

Ok I can see what you are getting at.  Do you know if there is a proper breakdown of where this photo was debunked?

The idea I presented doesn’t in itself require that photo as supporting evidence but it does mean further investigation to try to identify further evidence. At the moment it’s seems to be the strongest option I have got.

So I take it that you don’t think Keith McCloskeys book is worthy?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 03:27:47 AM
Would have been "a blast" for the lads who fuelled up the rockets with nitrous oxide.  I would certainly use an anaesthetic substance  capable of impairing people's judgement whilst they were working with the missile arsenal as a fuel.  whacky1
Fortunately the refuelling guys don't have access to the launch button! The military showing some intelligence for a change.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 03:38:08 AM
All of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncbEucjsNFU
"Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here. Why can't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change"
Magic.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 10, 2019, 04:26:29 AM
If the DPI incident was the result of a nuclear test. Then there is a more simple and compelling argument that would place detonation point over the top of Kholat Syakhl and up wind of the tent without the need for photographic evidence and it’s this:

If there was a large fire ball and mushroom cloud nearby that threatened your life, then the logical thing to do would be to run away from it in the opposite direction.  The Dyatlov group went down the slope in the same direction as the wind.  So if the cause was a nuclear device then it must have been up wind somewhere over the top of the mountain?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 05:34:00 AM
If the DPI incident was the result of a nuclear test. Then there is a more simple and compelling argument that would place detonation point over the top of Kholat Syakhl and up wind of the tent without the need for photographic evidence and it’s this:

If there was a large fire ball and mushroom cloud nearby that threatened your life, then the logical thing to do would be to run away from it in the opposite direction.  The Dyatlov group went down the slope in the same direction as the wind.  So if the cause was a nuclear device then it must have been up wind somewhere over the top of the mountain?
Actually the logical thing to do would be to run away in a direction perpendicular to the wind....
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 06:36:00 AM
If you guys want to discuss photos then imo the big ones are the plane photos :-

My narrative has it that Plane 2 is a self illuminating object lighting up the side of the mountain and the wind blown snow between. Plane 1 is upside down as displayed on this website.

Also the theory that this film is simply displaying water damage would seem to be negated by Eagle which is a very close fit for the meteorologist's report "A light surrounded by a mist".


So the big question is - given that the nitrogen oxide theory has a natural explanation (microwaves) and a man made explanation (rocket fuel) what are Plane1 and 2 photos of?


My narrative has it that they of a natural object very similar to the Quebec ufo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujGL8QT0lVY

N.B. it's best to watch this with frequent use of the play / pause button :)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 10, 2019, 08:19:30 AM
If the DPI incident was the result of a nuclear test. Then there is a more simple and compelling argument that would place detonation point over the top of Kholat Syakhl and up wind of the tent without the need for photographic evidence and it’s this:

If there was a large fire ball and mushroom cloud nearby that threatened your life, then the logical thing to do would be to run away from it in the opposite direction.  The Dyatlov group went down the slope in the same direction as the wind.  So if the cause was a nuclear device then it must have been up wind somewhere over the top of the mountain?
Actually the logical thing to do would be to run away in a direction perpendicular to the wind....

You mean they should run Pependicular to the fire ball?  But aren’t they 300 metes from the summit of a mountain? Where would that take them?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 10, 2019, 08:43:31 AM
Quote
Ok I can see what you are getting at.  Do you know if there is a proper breakdown of where this photo was debunked?

The idea I presented doesn’t in itself require that photo as supporting evidence but it does mean further investigation to try to identify further evidence. At the moment it’s seems to be the strongest option I have got.

So I take it that you don’t think Keith McCloskeys book is worthy?


Breakdown?  Debunked?

The book is wrong, and we know its wrong because the exposure in question did not come from Zolotoryov's camera... it came from Krivonischenko's camera.  To be exact..... these are the negatives, and you can clearly see it is the LAST exposure of the roll.

Its also a stubborn fact the "3 heads" image is a manipulated version of the lower right section of that very same exposure.  We also know how that exposure was created, and it does not involve fantastical tails of piloted fireballs or anything of the sort. The dyatlov group did not snap that picture.  Perhaps go back and read the link I provided? 


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-film1.jpg)



Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 10, 2019, 08:48:48 AM
I see we are back on the Quebec foil balloon horse that got away.   lol1



Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 10, 2019, 08:55:22 AM
All of it.


"Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here. Why can't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change"
Magic.

If you want to keep posting the same boring part of your favorite movie as if to imply I am one character and you are another....  Two can play that game.   



https://youtu.be/Em4-DyiAB2A
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 09:24:49 AM
You mean they should run Pependicular to the fire ball?  But aren’t they 300 metes from the summit of a mountain? Where would that take them?
No if the wind was from the southwest and downwind was to the northeast then moving northwest would take them along the ridge? Which is assumed to be the intention for their journey to Ortorten the following day.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-Pass-map.png)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 09:25:34 AM


If you want to keep posting the same boring part of your favorite movie as if to imply I am one character and you are another....  Two can play that game.   



https://youtu.be/Em4-DyiAB2A (https://youtu.be/Em4-DyiAB2A)
Now now keep your hat on.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 10, 2019, 09:31:20 AM
I see we are back on the Quebec foil balloon horse that got away.   lol1
Negative waves....
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 10, 2019, 02:27:20 PM
If the DPI incident was the result of a nuclear test. Then there is a more simple and compelling argument that would place detonation point over the top of Kholat Syakhl and up wind of the tent without the need for photographic evidence and it’s this:

If there was a large fire ball and mushroom cloud nearby that threatened your life, then the most INSTINCTIVE thing to do would be to run away from it in the opposite direction.  The Dyatlov group went down the slope in the same direction as the wind.  So if the cause was a nuclear device then it must have been up wind somewhere over the top of the mountain?

Minor modification made.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 11, 2019, 11:36:42 AM
If the DPI incident was the result of a nuclear test. Then there is a more simple and compelling argument that would place detonation point over the top of Kholat Syakhl and up wind of the tent without the need for photographic evidence and it’s this:

If there was a large fire ball and mushroom cloud nearby that threatened your life, then the most INSTINCTIVE thing to do would be to run away from it in the opposite direction.  The Dyatlov group went down the slope in the same direction as the wind.  So if the cause was a nuclear device then it must have been up wind somewhere over the top of the mountain?

Minor modification made.

This theory is highly unlikely. Nuclear Explosion  !  ?  Fire Ball etc  !  ?  If a Fire Ball was that close to them then they would have had very serious injuries indeed. If it was some distance away then they would have had the time and inclination to gather there essential kit to survive.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 11, 2019, 04:03:44 PM
If the DPI incident was the result of a nuclear test. Then there is a more simple and compelling argument that would place detonation point over the top of Kholat Syakhl and up wind of the tent without the need for photographic evidence and it’s this:

If there was a large fire ball and mushroom cloud nearby that threatened your life, then the most INSTINCTIVE thing to do would be to run away from it in the opposite direction.  The Dyatlov group went down the slope in the same direction as the wind.  So if the cause was a nuclear device then it must have been up wind somewhere over the top of the mountain?

Minor modification made.

This theory is highly unlikely. Nuclear Explosion  !  ?  Fire Ball etc  !  ?  If a Fire Ball was that close to them then they would have had very serious injuries indeed. If it was some distance away then they would have had the time and inclination to gather there essential kit to survive.

Your assumption is reasonable on the face of it. 

Look up neutron bomb on Wikipedia.  All of my research is pretty much based on this vast database.  A low yield weapon is far from the massive devastating bombs one would normally imagine.  We are talking about an air burst that as long as you are more than 500 metres away is initially survivable.  More than 1 to 2 km away and it could be survived full stop.  This type of weapon is on the same scale as large conventional audinance.  would have still been scary though. 

I am still not convinced it was a nuclear device being tested myself.

My current line of thinking is that if it was a low yield device, then the detonation would have been just over on the other side of the summit of the mountain.  About 2 to 3 km up wind at an altitude of 200m from the ground ( optimum height of air burst for 1kt device).  This would mean that the tent would have good shielding from the thermal heat flash and ionising radiation.  The shock waveoverpressure would have been scary but not life threatening and the hurricane wind blast could have caused some minor injuries to those standing outside or in the tent.  I initially thought that the direct effects of the bomb could have caused the panic and some of the injuries, but I now realise that it could have been something else.  I am currently investigating this scenario.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 11, 2019, 04:46:36 PM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 11, 2019, 06:36:09 PM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#

I think we could fill the Dyatlov Pass Forum with references to such photos and movies. In fact there must be thousands of such photos and movies over the last 60 years.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 11, 2019, 07:27:25 PM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#

Did this one swoop down and chase people around a mountain attacking several times at several locations? 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 12, 2019, 12:39:43 AM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/# (http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#)

I think we could fill the Dyatlov Pass Forum with references to such photos and movies. In fact there must be thousands of such photos and movies over the last 60 years.


I wish it was true. In fact these events are rare and photos and videos of them rarer again. But with smart phones and the internet they are starting to appear.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 12, 2019, 12:41:22 AM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/# (http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#)

Did this one swoop down and chase people around a mountain attacking several times at several locations?


You're confusing the NO2 theory with the fire orb theory.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 12, 2019, 01:52:15 AM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/# (http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#)

Did this one swoop down and chase people around a mountain attacking several times at several locations?


You're confusing the NO2 theory with the fire orb theory.

Orange orb look like sun light that has just managed to sneak its way through a small gap in some dense dark clouds.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 12, 2019, 05:34:42 AM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/# (http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#)

Did this one swoop down and chase people around a mountain attacking several times at several locations?


You're confusing the NO2 theory with the fire orb theory.

Orange orb look like sun light that has just managed to sneak its way through a small gap in some dense dark clouds.


Curious that it's always the same colours white/orange/black.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 12, 2019, 12:57:07 PM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/# (http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#)

Did this one swoop down and chase people around a mountain attacking several times at several locations?


You're confusing the NO2 theory with the fire orb theory.

Or, I know your Piloted Fireball theory is now based on it creating NO2, and NO2 welp...... 

Quote
Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 12, 2019, 12:59:26 PM
Yet another report of an white/black/orange ufo...
http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/# (http://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/2-see-triangular-ufo-with-orange-plume-above-it/#)

Did this one swoop down and chase people around a mountain attacking several times at several locations?


You're confusing the NO2 theory with the fire orb theory.

Orange orb look like sun light that has just managed to sneak its way through a small gap in some dense dark clouds.

Looks to me like what I see looking at dark clouds through my dining room window when the kitchen light is on behind me.   
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 19, 2019, 05:21:20 AM
A fire orb with an orange plume....
http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/unknown-red-sphere-like-object.html (http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/unknown-red-sphere-like-object.html)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 19, 2019, 12:51:04 PM
A fire orb with an orange plume....
http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/unknown-red-sphere-like-object.html (http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/unknown-red-sphere-like-object.html)

How many people did this one chase down to kill, and how many times at how many locations?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 19, 2019, 01:55:21 PM
A fire orb with an orange plume....
http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/unknown-red-sphere-like-object.html (http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/11/unknown-red-sphere-like-object.html)

How many people did this one chase down to kill, and how many times at how many locations?
325 plus or minus a significant number possibly like 325...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 19, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
That's a guess btw.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 19, 2019, 06:10:53 PM
Did it actually kill people?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 19, 2019, 07:07:29 PM
Did it actually kill people?


Why is this relevant to the DPI?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 19, 2019, 09:56:32 PM
Bingo?

 whacky1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 20, 2019, 05:02:18 AM
Bingo?

 whacky1
@LooseLogic - i am reinforcing the premise of this thread that electro magnetism is known to create nitrogen oxides, by posting photographic evidence of other events that fit this premise. Given their altitude it is unlikely that these other events would result in casualties.
 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1 quiet1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 20, 2019, 06:07:34 AM
Perhaps you can check out the forum rules.  In particular, rule 8.

8. Trolling(name calling/bullying/pushing buttons) won't be tolerated. A fun razzing is one thing, but taunting is another.

In addition, this is general discussion under 'theories' of the DP Forum.   So I would expect your 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' has something to do with the death of 9 hikers within Russia 1959.  Asking if these atmospheric phenomena you presume to be genuine has killed anyone and if so, how many people etc, is 100% relevant and on-topic. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 20, 2019, 06:31:32 AM
Perhaps you can check out the forum rules.  In particular, rule 8.
8. Trolling(name calling/bullying/pushing buttons) won't be tolerated. A fun razzing is one thing, but taunting is another.
I'm all for online rules and staying within them.
In addition, this is general discussion under 'theories' of the DP Forum.   So I would expect your 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' has something to do with the death of 9 hikers within Russia 1959.  Asking if these atmospheric phenomena you presume to be genuine has killed anyone and if so, how many people etc, is 100% relevant and on-topic.
.
The theory is that Yuri D died directly from NO2 inhalation and NO2 is one of the very few explanations for the orange brown hands and faces seen at the funeral..
 This theory is also a fit for the Chivruay event, which afaik has no other explanation.
.
It also explains why the hill is given the name "Dead Mountain"..
It explains the sastrugi and persistent footsteps and provides a theory for the ravine deaths..And of course the big one is it explains why they left the tent so quickly..Including N2O in the theory provides a fit for :-."Ortorten News".Wasted matches.Deciding to climb a tree and then falling out of it..Afaik this is the best theory for the DPI...Also can i suggest that 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' is taunting and contravenes Rule 8....   declare1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 20, 2019, 06:22:54 PM
Quote
Also can i suggest that 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' is taunting and contravenes Rule 8....   

No, short-handing with bork bork, bla bla, or etc etc is in no way shape or form a violation of rule #8.  Trolling/taunting the staff with immature hashtags names however is, especially when unprovoked.  If you go back and read my post, I only asked a simple and very basic question.   
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 21, 2019, 12:58:50 AM
Quote
Also can i suggest that 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' is taunting and contravenes Rule 8....   

No, short-handing with bork bork, bla bla, or etc etc is in no way shape or form a violation of rule #8.  Trolling/taunting the staff with immature hashtags names however is, especially when unprovoked.  If you go back and read my post, I only asked a simple and very basic question.
It's good to know your bork borks from your bla blas...
Moving on.
The NO2 theory also explains why after exiting the tent they appear to have stood for awhile some distance away. It explains the enlarged aortas and the close grouping of the returning three. It explains Semyon's photos, it explains Ivanov's fire orbs.

It's the one to beat...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 21, 2019, 02:30:23 PM
Quote
Also can i suggest that 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' is taunting and contravenes Rule 8....   

No, short-handing with bork bork, bla bla, or etc etc is in no way shape or form a violation of rule #8.  Trolling/taunting the staff with immature hashtags names however is, especially when unprovoked.  If you go back and read my post, I only asked a simple and very basic question.
It's good to know your bork borks from your bla blas...
Moving on.
The NO2 theory also explains why after exiting the tent they appear to have stood for awhile some distance away. It explains the enlarged aortas and the close grouping of the returning three. It explains Semyon's photos, it explains Ivanov's fire orbs.

It's the one to beat...

How can you say for certain that they stood for a while some distance from the Tent  !  ?  How can you be certain that it explains the enlarged aortas  !  ?  How can you be certain that it explains Semyons photos  !  ?    How can you be certain that it explains Ivanovs alleged so called Fire orbs  !  ? 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 21, 2019, 02:34:13 PM
Piloted Fireballs to be exact.   lol1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 22, 2019, 03:45:39 AM
Quote
Also can i suggest that 'Nitrogen turns to bork bork' is taunting and contravenes Rule 8....   

No, short-handing with bork bork, bla bla, or etc etc is in no way shape or form a violation of rule #8.  Trolling/taunting the staff with immature hashtags names however is, especially when unprovoked.  If you go back and read my post, I only asked a simple and very basic question.
It's good to know your bork borks from your bla blas...
Moving on.
The NO2 theory also explains why after exiting the tent they appear to have stood for awhile some distance away. It explains the enlarged aortas and the close grouping of the returning three. It explains Semyon's photos, it explains Ivanov's fire orbs.

It's the one to beat...

How can you say for certain that they stood for a while some distance from the Tent  !  ?  How can you be certain that it explains the enlarged aortas  !  ?  How can you be certain that it explains Semyons photos  !  ?    How can you be certain that it explains Ivanovs alleged so called Fire orbs  !  ? 
I can't be certain. But the theory has an explanation for these things (unlike most theories which can't explain half of them...).
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 05:44:27 AM
Heck, I can come up with a theory about Smurfs that explains everything, but that wouldn't make it true.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 22, 2019, 05:51:17 AM
Heck, I can come up with a theory about Smurfs that explains everything, but that wouldn't make it true.
Plausible theory...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 22, 2019, 11:36:39 AM
Nigel. You say and I quote  ''I can't be certain. But the theory has an explanation for these things (unlike most theories which can't explain half of them...).''  Thats fair enough, but would still not be enough to convince a JURY in a Court Of Law in England, thats for sure. The Jury would struggle with the notion of FIRE ORBS ie what exactly are they  1 ?  Still no scientific definition.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 22, 2019, 12:33:10 PM
Nigel. You say and I quote  ''I can't be certain. But the theory has an explanation for these things (unlike most theories which can't explain half of them...).''  Thats fair enough, but would still not be enough to convince a JURY in a Court Of Law in England, thats for sure. The Jury would struggle with the notion of FIRE ORBS ie what exactly are they  1 ?  Still no scientific definition.
Ball lightning attracts theories from eminent physicists...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 01:22:02 PM
And incompetent investigators. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 22, 2019, 01:43:36 PM
And incompetent investigators.
Who presented evidence to the Central Committee of the Soviet Union that convinced them to take highly unusual steps, confiscating evidence, ordering a coverup. Okishev thought it was a unique situation without any parallel.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 01:48:20 PM
Really?

Awesome....  show me this evidence or proof he submitted anything other then the case files we are all familiar with. 

Its a loosing argument when you have to fabricate events.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 22, 2019, 01:52:16 PM
Really?

Awesome....  show me this evidence or proof he submitted anything other then the case files we are all familiar with. 

Its a loosing argument when you have to fabricate events.
You know perfectly well that Ivanov and Okishev state that the evidence was confiscated?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 01:57:23 PM
Quote
confiscating evidence, ordering a coverup

Your right....  The paranoid Russians of 1959 would never do anything like that unless is was the only resort.     whist1

And you have no clue whether or not there was a cover-up.  Your issue is blatant Nigel.  You treat wild conjecture with zero substantial supporting evidence as if they were fact, then preach said 'facts' as if true which fuels misconceptions, and misinformation.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 02:00:20 PM
Really?

Awesome....  show me this evidence or proof he submitted anything other then the case files we are all familiar with. 

Its a loosing argument when you have to fabricate events.
You know perfectly well that Ivanov and Okishev state that the evidence was confiscated?

Confiscated...   lol.

Whatever term you want to use as the case was taken from them, yes.  How exactly does that prove anything you state above?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 22, 2019, 02:15:40 PM
Quote
confiscating evidence, ordering a coverup

And you have no clue whether or not there was a cover-up. 
What are you talking about? Both Ivanov and Okishev clearly stated in interviews that there was a coverup.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 02:22:46 PM
Oh, I gotta see this.   
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 22, 2019, 02:30:03 PM
 lol1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 23, 2019, 04:54:16 AM
Nigel

I think we may agree on more then you realize.  I believe its a strong possibility that some type of toxic gas set in motion a series or 'chain' of unfortunate events.  I'm just not convinced the source for said gas was ball lightning.   
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 23, 2019, 07:09:40 AM
Nigel

I think we may agree on more then you realize.  I believe its a strong possibility that some type of toxic gas set in motion a series or 'chain' of unfortunate events.  I'm just not convinced the source for said gas was ball lightning.   
Glad we agree on something!
The source isn't ball lightning but ionisation produced by the snowstorm creating microwave energy in a favourable terrain/cloud structure (swirling oscillating air).
This results in visual objects such as ball lightning = fire orbs, objects in Semyon's photos and microwaves creating nitrogen oxides which drift downwind as a hot poisonous/intoxicating mist.
As for the source being a man made object like a rocket instead of a natural phenomena, it's possible but more of a stretch.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 23, 2019, 07:22:21 AM
Ok so your saying.....     

ionisation produced by the snowstorm leads to microwave energy wich produces two things. 

#1 visual light phenomena
#2 nitrogen oxides which drift downwind as a hot poisonous/intoxicating mist.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 23, 2019, 07:57:43 AM
Ok so your saying.....     

ionisation produced by the snowstorm leads to microwave energy wich produces two things. 

#1 visual light phenomena
#2 nitrogen oxides which drift downwind as a hot poisonous/intoxicating mist.
Almost :-ionisation produced by the snowstorm leads to

#1 visual light phenomena (discharging ion streams such as plane1, plane2).
#2 microwave energy producing nitrogen oxides which drift downwind as a hot poisonous/intoxicating mist.
#3 cloud to cloud and cloud to ground lightning producing ball lightning (fire orbs).
That snow storms create ionisation is well understood - checkout thundersnow.
#2 and #3 are within the orbit of conventional science, the paper from Prof Wu published in the magazine Nature discusses these points.

Not sure how much #1 is accepted but i've posted what seems to be good empirical evidence (e.g. quebec object).
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 23, 2019, 12:48:47 PM
Nigel. You say and I quote  ''I can't be certain. But the theory has an explanation for these things (unlike most theories which can't explain half of them...).''  Thats fair enough, but would still not be enough to convince a JURY in a Court Of Law in England, thats for sure. The Jury would struggle with the notion of FIRE ORBS ie what exactly are they  1 ?  Still no scientific definition.
Ball lightning attracts theories from eminent physicists...


But attracting theories from eminent physicists is not a scientific definition in any way whatsoever.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 23, 2019, 12:53:34 PM
Ok so your saying.....     

ionisation produced by the snowstorm leads to microwave energy wich produces two things. 

#1 visual light phenomena
#2 nitrogen oxides which drift downwind as a hot poisonous/intoxicating mist.
Almost :-ionisation produced by the snowstorm leads to

#1 visual light phenomena (discharging ion streams such as plane1, plane2).
#2 microwave energy producing nitrogen oxides which drift downwind as a hot poisonous/intoxicating mist.
#3 cloud to cloud and cloud to ground lightning producing ball lightning (fire orbs).
That snow storms create ionisation is well understood - checkout thundersnow.
#2 and #3 are within the orbit of conventional science, the paper from Prof Wu published in the magazine Nature discusses these points.

Not sure how much #1 is accepted but i've posted what seems to be good empirical evidence (e.g. quebec object).


And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 23, 2019, 01:10:47 PM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 24, 2019, 10:52:51 AM
Nigel. You say and I quote  ''I can't be certain. But the theory has an explanation for these things (unlike most theories which can't explain half of them...).''  Thats fair enough, but would still not be enough to convince a JURY in a Court Of Law in England, thats for sure. The Jury would struggle with the notion of FIRE ORBS ie what exactly are they  1 ?  Still no scientific definition.
Ball lightning attracts theories from eminent physicists...


But attracting theories from eminent physicists is not a scientific definition in any way whatsoever.
Correct, ball lightning is currently poorly understood. A full understanding is for the science of the future, possibly not in the lifetime of anyone reading this. But that does not mean that it doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 24, 2019, 12:33:43 PM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.


If you are bringing into Court evidence of a scientific nature then of course it has to stand up.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 24, 2019, 01:18:56 PM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.


If you are bringing into Court evidence of a scientific nature then of course it has to stand up.
I don't think the opinion of a Court of Law was very important to the DPI group that fateful night....
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 24, 2019, 03:18:17 PM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.


If you are bringing into Court evidence of a scientific nature then of course it has to stand up.
I don't think the opinion of a Court of Law was very important to the DPI group that fateful night....

Question: if this snow storm created ionisation and that in turn created nitrogen oxides, and ball lightning, why don't we see these effects more often?  What was so special about the snow storm on Kholat Syakhl that night?

To create a toxic nitrogen oxide mist capable of driving the group away from the camp, what is the mechanism?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 24, 2019, 03:39:21 PM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.


If you are bringing into Court evidence of a scientific nature then of course it has to stand up.
I don't think the opinion of a Court of Law was very important to the DPI group that fateful night....

Question: if this snow storm created ionisation and that in turn created nitrogen oxides, and ball lightning, why don't we see these effects more often?  What was so special about the snow storm on Kholat Syakhl that night?It's not just the snow storm that was special but the location and wind direction AND wind strength. Both the DPI and Chivruay seemed to have happened in extremely high winds (50m/s = 112mph at Chivruay). So it maybe that there are few locations that fit the requisite profile and these locations very rarely have humans passing through them precisely at the right (or wrong) time. But there could be a significantly larger number of dead mountains where nothing seems to live....

To create a toxic nitrogen oxide mist capable of driving the group away from the camp, what is the mechanism?https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263Plus the ufo links i've posted showing orange/brown clouds.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 24, 2019, 04:18:48 PM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.


If you are bringing into Court evidence of a scientific nature then of course it has to stand up.
I don't think the opinion of a Court of Law was very important to the DPI group that fateful night....

Question: if this snow storm created ionisation and that in turn created nitrogen oxides, and ball lightning, why don't we see these effects more often?  What was so special about the snow storm on Kholat Syakhl that night?It's not just the snow storm that was special but the location and wind direction AND wind strength. Both the DPI and Chivruay seemed to have happened in extremely high winds (50m/s = 112mph at Chivruay). So it maybe that there are few locations that fit the requisite profile and these locations very rarely have humans passing through them precisely at the right (or wrong) time. But there could be a significantly larger number of dead mountains where nothing seems to live....

To create a toxic nitrogen oxide mist capable of driving the group away from the camp, what is the mechanism?https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263 (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263)Plus the ufo links i've posted showing orange/brown clouds.
Also - https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.4996790?journalCode=jap
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 04:40:25 AM

And neither is this a scientific definition of anything.  This would not stand up in an English Court Of Law.
I wasn't aware that science had to stand up in an English Court of Law.

I have read the paper in the attached link and on the face of it it seems like a reasonable theoretical consideration of the phenomenon of ball lightning.  However it is interesting that it provides a typical range of sizes for the ball and the duration of their stability. Typically up to 50cm diameter and 1 to 5 seconds duration.  Although it is credible that these balls of standing microwave energy can produce acrid fumes of ozone and nitrogen dioxide I doubt that sufficient quantities could be produced to generate a large toxic gas cloud?  Nitrogen dioxide would be localised to the region around the ball.

It one of these ball lightning phenomena entered the tent then it would certainly cause a stir and scare those inside to rush out in fear or even maybe cut the tent, but I can’t see how it would cause them all to leave the camp and head down the slope without their shoes?
If you are bringing into Court evidence of a scientific nature then of course it has to stand up.
I don't think the opinion of a Court of Law was very important to the DPI group that fateful night....

Question: if this snow storm created ionisation and that in turn created nitrogen oxides, and ball lightning, why don't we see these effects more often?  What was so special about the snow storm on Kholat Syakhl that night?It's not just the snow storm that was special but the location and wind direction AND wind strength. Both the DPI and Chivruay seemed to have happened in extremely high winds (50m/s = 112mph at Chivruay). So it maybe that there are few locations that fit the requisite profile and these locations very rarely have humans passing through them precisely at the right (or wrong) time. But there could be a significantly larger number of dead mountains where nothing seems to live....

To create a toxic nitrogen oxide mist capable of driving the group away from the camp, what is the mechanism?https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263 (https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263)Plus the ufo links i've posted showing orange/brown clouds.
Also - https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.4996790?journalCode=jap
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 04:46:24 AM
I have read the paper in the attached link and on the face of it it seems like a reasonable theoretical consideration of the phenomenon of ball lightning.  However it is interesting that it provides a typical range of sizes for the ball and the duration of their stability. Typically up to 50cm diameter and 1 to 5 seconds duration.  Although it is credible that these balls of standing microwave energy can produce acrid fumes of ozone and nitrogen dioxide I doubt that sufficient quantities could be produced to generate a large toxic gas cloud?  Nitrogen dioxide would be localised to the region around the ball.

It one of these ball lightning phenomena entered the tent then it would certainly cause a stir and scare those inside to rush out in fear or even maybe cut the tent, but I can’t see how it would cause them all to leave the camp and head down the slope without their shoes?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 25, 2019, 07:45:32 AM
I have read the paper in the attached link and on the face of it it seems like a reasonable theoretical consideration of the phenomenon of ball lightning.  However it is interesting that it provides a typical range of sizes for the ball and the duration of their stability. Typically up to 50cm diameter and 1 to 5 seconds duration.  Although it is credible that these balls of standing microwave energy can produce acrid fumes of ozone and nitrogen dioxide I doubt that sufficient quantities could be produced to generate a large toxic gas cloud?  Nitrogen dioxide would be localised to the region around the ball.

It one of these ball lightning phenomena entered the tent then it would certainly cause a stir and scare those inside to rush out in fear or even maybe cut the tent, but I can’t see how it would cause them all to leave the camp and head down the slope without their shoes?
It's not about ball lightning, it's about ionised air experiencing large amounts of continuous movement - "waves" that produce microwaves that produce nitrogen oxides. I'm simply using the paper by Prof Wu because you asked about the mechanism.
This object is closer to my theory.

http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2014/07/bow-hunter-captured-strange-ufo-in.html

It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 08:45:42 AM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 25, 2019, 09:11:38 AM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 25, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

You keep going over the same old ground adding bits and pieces which are just confusing an already confusing theory with absolutely no scientific proof that this is what caused the Dyatlov Group to evacuate the Tent etc.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 25, 2019, 12:40:41 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm (http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm)


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html) look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

You keep going over the same old ground adding bits and pieces which are just confusing an already confusing theory with absolutely no scientific proof that this is what caused the Dyatlov Group to evacuate the Tent etc.


Something tells me that you are not ready for microwave solitons...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on January 25, 2019, 01:19:36 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

You keep going over the same old ground adding bits and pieces which are just confusing an already confusing theory with absolutely no scientific proof that this is what caused the Dyatlov Group to evacuate the Tent etc.

Dont feed the trolls.   Let the thread die a slow agonizing death. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 25, 2019, 01:44:22 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm (http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm)


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html) look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

You keep going over the same old ground adding bits and pieces which are just confusing an already confusing theory with absolutely no scientific proof that this is what caused the Dyatlov Group to evacuate the Tent etc.

Dont feed the trolls.   Let the thread die a slow agonizing death.
Will the inquest be in an English Court of Law i wonder..?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 25, 2019, 02:16:53 PM
http://ufosightingshotspot.blogspot.com/2017/06/photographer-accidentally-captures.html
Yet another orange cloud
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 03:29:23 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

Ok, I see where you are going, but to generate radio waves the charged particles would have to be wiggling at very high frequencies and therefore have a very short wavelength.  The kind of standing wave (air waves) you are talking about don't look like they have very high frequencies?  In a typical radio transmitter that uses modulated inductance and capacitance circuitry they are set up with alternating currents in the region of KHz to MHz.  How would you get such high frequencies In an air standing wave?

Another question: do the microwaves (photons) carry enough energy to initiate the chemical reaction between oxygen and nitrogen?  Microwave energy seems a bit low to me.  I would have thought you would need photons bordering the x-ray ultraviolet region?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 25, 2019, 03:49:34 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm (http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm)


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html) look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

Ok, I see where you are going, but to generate radio waves the charged particles would have to be wiggling at very high frequencies and therefore have a very short wavelength.  The kind of standing wave (air waves) you are talking about don't look like they have very high frequencies?  In a typical radio transmitter that uses modulated inductance and capacitance circuitry they are set up with alternating currents in the region of KHz to MHz.  How would you get such high frequencies In an air standing wave?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave - can be 1 metre wavelength. I'm not religious on it, could be even longer perhaps. "Microwave region"(ish) :)
Another question: do the microwaves (photons) carry enough energy to initiate the chemical reaction between oxygen and nitrogen?  Microwave energy seems a bit low to me.  I would have thought you would need photons bordering the x-ray ultraviolet region?I don't know the theory in detail either i'm just dialing in authoritative statements that it is the case. It's not a reaction but a weak bonding of atoms?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 25, 2019, 04:17:34 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm (http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm)


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html) look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

Ok, I see where you are going, but to generate radio waves the charged particles would have to be wiggling at very high frequencies and therefore have a very short wavelength.  The kind of standing wave (air waves) you are talking about don't look like they have very high frequencies?  In a typical radio transmitter that uses modulated inductance and capacitance circuitry they are set up with alternating currents in the region of KHz to MHz.  How would you get such high frequencies In an air standing wave?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave - can be 1 metre wavelength. I'm not religious on it, could be even longer perhaps. "Microwave region"(ish) :)
Another question: do the microwaves (photons) carry enough energy to initiate the chemical reaction between oxygen and nitrogen?  Microwave energy seems a bit low to me.  I would have thought you would need photons bordering the x-ray ultraviolet region?I don't know the theory in detail either i'm just dialing in authoritative statements that it is the case. It's not a reaction but a weak bonding of atoms?

Yes microwaves have a wavelength of about 1 metre, but they travel at the speed of light, which means to create an electromagnetic wave with a wavelength of 1 metre you need to wiggle your electrons at very high frequency:

F = speed of light/wavelength

This gives about 300MHz

These air waves won't be travelling anywhere near the speed of light which means the wavelength of the air waves would have to be much smaller, even if they were moving at sonic speeds of 330m/s  This would mean that even at sonic speeds the air wave would have to have a wavelength of only 1 micron. This would not be credible given the physical properties of air in terms of turbulent wave formation around another object. 

The ball lightning on the other hand is more credible, but it would not create huge amounts of nitrogen dioxide.

I'm not sure about the photon energy required.  Microwaves seem a bit low and I certainly don't get a cloud of redish brown acrid smoke when I open the door to my microwave oven.  Are there any credible references to microwaves causing nitrogen oxides to form?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 26, 2019, 04:29:57 AM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm (http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm)


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html) look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

Ok, I see where you are going, but to generate radio waves the charged particles would have to be wiggling at very high frequencies and therefore have a very short wavelength.  The kind of standing wave (air waves) you are talking about don't look like they have very high frequencies?  In a typical radio transmitter that uses modulated inductance and capacitance circuitry they are set up with alternating currents in the region of KHz to MHz.  How would you get such high frequencies In an air standing wave?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave) - can be 1 metre wavelength. I'm not religious on it, could be even longer perhaps. "Microwave region"(ish) :)
Another question: do the microwaves (photons) carry enough energy to initiate the chemical reaction between oxygen and nitrogen?  Microwave energy seems a bit low to me.  I would have thought you would need photons bordering the x-ray ultraviolet region?I don't know the theory in detail either i'm just dialing in authoritative statements that it is the case. It's not a reaction but a weak bonding of atoms?

Yes microwaves have a wavelength of about 1 metre, but they travel at the speed of light, which means to create an electromagnetic wave with a wavelength of 1 metre you need to wiggle your electrons at very high frequency:

F = speed of light/wavelength

This gives about 300MHz

These air waves won't be travelling anywhere near the speed of light which means the wavelength of the air waves would have to be much smaller, even if they were moving at sonic speeds of 330m/s  This would mean that even at sonic speeds the air wave would have to have a wavelength of only 1 micron. This would not be credible given the physical properties of air in terms of turbulent wave formation around another object.
There would have to be an intermediate mechanism! Like a natural magnetron?

The ball lightning on the other hand is more credible, but it would not create huge amounts of nitrogen dioxide.The videos and photos i'm posting might prove you wrong?

I'm not sure about the photon energy required.  Microwaves seem a bit low and I certainly don't get a cloud of redish brown acrid smoke when I open the door to my microwave oven.  Are there any credible references to microwaves causing nitrogen oxides to form?https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 26, 2019, 07:43:19 AM
Maybe something like a cross field amplifier - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed-field_amplifier
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on January 26, 2019, 11:54:02 AM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

You keep going over the same old ground adding bits and pieces which are just confusing an already confusing theory with absolutely no scientific proof that this is what caused the Dyatlov Group to evacuate the Tent etc.

Dont feed the trolls.   Let the thread die a slow agonizing death.


Seems like  its become a ZOMBIE THREAD.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 26, 2019, 12:58:25 PM
Seems like NEGATIVE WAVES...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 26, 2019, 03:42:44 PM
It is a standing wave of ionised air with the antinodes generating hot NO2 (black stripes) and as this heavier than air gas drifts down it cools and becomes orange. Think of an electric bar fire hanging in the air powered by the wind.

Ok. Need more information. What do you mean by a standing wave of ionised air?

I get that air molecules can be ionised and carry an electrical charge and then when they move they can create a magnetic field but how does this create a standing wave and generate nitrogen dioxide?
The standing wave is in the air - http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm (http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/pictures/cloudwaves.cfm)


https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/antennas.html) look at the section - How antennas work
"As the electrons (tiny particles inside atoms (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/atoms.html)) in the electric current wiggle back and forth along the antenna, they create invisible electromagnetic radiation (https://www.explainthatstuff.com/electromagnetic-spectrum.html) in the form of radio waves."

So if the air in the standing wave is ionised and then "wiggled" it will generate radio waves. If the wiggling has the right wavelength then you are creating microwaves. Then you're creating nitrogen oxides yes?

Ok, I see where you are going, but to generate radio waves the charged particles would have to be wiggling at very high frequencies and therefore have a very short wavelength.  The kind of standing wave (air waves) you are talking about don't look like they have very high frequencies?  In a typical radio transmitter that uses modulated inductance and capacitance circuitry they are set up with alternating currents in the region of KHz to MHz.  How would you get such high frequencies In an air standing wave?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave) - can be 1 metre wavelength. I'm not religious on it, could be even longer perhaps. "Microwave region"(ish) :)
Another question: do the microwaves (photons) carry enough energy to initiate the chemical reaction between oxygen and nitrogen?  Microwave energy seems a bit low to me.  I would have thought you would need photons bordering the x-ray ultraviolet region?I don't know the theory in detail either i'm just dialing in authoritative statements that it is the case. It's not a reaction but a weak bonding of atoms?

Yes microwaves have a wavelength of about 1 metre, but they travel at the speed of light, which means to create an electromagnetic wave with a wavelength of 1 metre you need to wiggle your electrons at very high frequency:

F = speed of light/wavelength

This gives about 300MHz

These air waves won't be travelling anywhere near the speed of light which means the wavelength of the air waves would have to be much smaller, even if they were moving at sonic speeds of 330m/s  This would mean that even at sonic speeds the air wave would have to have a wavelength of only 1 micron. This would not be credible given the physical properties of air in terms of turbulent wave formation around another object.
There would have to be an intermediate mechanism! Like a natural magnetron?

The ball lightning on the other hand is more credible, but it would not create huge amounts of nitrogen dioxide.The videos and photos i'm posting might prove you wrong?

I'm not sure about the photon energy required.  Microwaves seem a bit low and I certainly don't get a cloud of redish brown acrid smoke when I open the door to my microwave oven.  Are there any credible references to microwaves causing nitrogen oxides to form?https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263

Natural megatron? No.    I would say that what you really need is high energy UV light sources or x-ray sources.  These could be generated by lightning, also by the sun.  Hence pollution + strong sunlight can generate NO2 as in smog.  A nuclear detonation could also produce a significant amount of nitrogen dioxide as a cloud.  What else could produce a toxic gas cloud of nitrogen dioxide?

What you need for the DPI is a credible source of nitrogen dioxide.  A toxic cloud could have resulted in the events that night.

You know that the deaths can't be explained by hypothermia alone.  Dorishenko's Odema.  When you look at the evidence long enough it's clear that none of them should have died of hypothermia.  The injuries in the ravine don't make sense unless there was something that affected Their physical and mental state.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 27, 2019, 05:46:56 AM

What else could produce a toxic gas cloud of nitrogen dioxide?
Maybe the answer is in those ufo links i'm posting? Or here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatwoods_monster
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 27, 2019, 06:28:25 AM
These make my point better :-
http://www.thinkanomalous.com/flatwoods-monster-1952.html   
 (http://www.thinkanomalous.com/flatwoods-monster-1952.html)"Everyone in the group experienced nausea, irritation of the nasal cavity, and severe swelling in the throat after inhaling the odorous mist. Lemon had multiple convulsions and went into violent fits of vomiting almost immediately after returning home. Some of the children could hardly swallow water, and Mrs. May had to take her boys to a doctor. The doctor who treated them claimed that their symptoms were similar to those experienced by victims of mustard gas.".
http://www.theparanormalguide.com/blog/flatwoods-monster
"Many of the group that encountered the entity are said to have suffered from  illnesses all their lives, and it is said that they all were, at some  stage, diagnosed with either throat or lung cancer. Kathleen Mays is  said to have died of throat cancer, with many believing the encounter   to have had a lasting effect on members of the group."
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 27, 2019, 03:12:01 PM
These make my point better :-
http://www.thinkanomalous.com/flatwoods-monster-1952.html   
 (http://www.thinkanomalous.com/flatwoods-monster-1952.html)"Everyone in the group experienced nausea, irritation of the nasal cavity, and severe swelling in the throat after inhaling the odorous mist. Lemon had multiple convulsions and went into violent fits of vomiting almost immediately after returning home. Some of the children could hardly swallow water, and Mrs. May had to take her boys to a doctor. The doctor who treated them claimed that their symptoms were similar to those experienced by victims of mustard gas.".
http://www.theparanormalguide.com/blog/flatwoods-monster
"Many of the group that encountered the entity are said to have suffered from  illnesses all their lives, and it is said that they all were, at some  stage, diagnosed with either throat or lung cancer. Kathleen Mays is  said to have died of throat cancer, with many believing the encounter   to have had a lasting effect on members of the group."

Definitely a very strange report.  But proving that something similar is responsible for DPI would be very difficult.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 27, 2019, 03:46:35 PM
These make my point better :-
http://www.thinkanomalous.com/flatwoods-monster-1952.html   
 (http://www.thinkanomalous.com/flatwoods-monster-1952.html)"Everyone in the group experienced nausea, irritation of the nasal cavity, and severe swelling in the throat after inhaling the odorous mist. Lemon had multiple convulsions and went into violent fits of vomiting almost immediately after returning home. Some of the children could hardly swallow water, and Mrs. May had to take her boys to a doctor. The doctor who treated them claimed that their symptoms were similar to those experienced by victims of mustard gas.".
http://www.theparanormalguide.com/blog/flatwoods-monster (http://www.theparanormalguide.com/blog/flatwoods-monster)
"Many of the group that encountered the entity are said to have suffered from  illnesses all their lives, and it is said that they all were, at some  stage, diagnosed with either throat or lung cancer. Kathleen Mays is  said to have died of throat cancer, with many believing the encounter   to have had a lasting effect on members of the group."

Definitely a very strange report.  But proving that something similar is responsible for DPI would be very difficult.
If i'm right then the phenomena should repeat itself in high winds from the west. So maybe one day...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 27, 2019, 04:24:02 PM
And perhaps the mansi will have smartphones by then...
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 27, 2019, 11:42:47 PM
And perhaps the mansi will have smartphones by then...

Maybe they will
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 29, 2019, 02:08:58 AM
The link below gives solar activity since 1930. Astronomers have been recording sunspot counts for several hundred years and highest ever value is..... 1958! With 1959 being the third strongest ever.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Sunspot-cycles-and-the-occurrence-and-intensity-using-the-Ap-index-of-geomagnetic_fig11_274654201 (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Sunspot-cycles-and-the-occurrence-and-intensity-using-the-Ap-index-of-geomagnetic_fig11_274654201)
This translates into very strong geomagnetic storm activity as this image from Fairbanks, Alaska in 1958 demonstrates.
https://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/istp/outreach/images/Aurora/greataur.jpg (https://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/istp/outreach/images/Aurora/greataur.jpg)
This shows the extent of the 1958 aurora display apparently being visible from Mexico.
https://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/istp/outreach/images/Aurora/58map.jpg
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on January 30, 2019, 04:47:31 AM
Ghost rockets - https://alienspacecentereast.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/the-ufo-ghost-rocket-mystery/
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Star man on January 30, 2019, 08:37:53 AM
I read that there was supposed to be strange electrical storms in the region of the mountain and reported lights in the sky.  But it is difficult to know if it is of any significance?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 27, 2019, 09:53:20 AM
(https://www.ufocasebook.com/2012/sistersoregonalarge740.jpg)
A good candidate for the no2 theory. UFO in all the right colours, black for hot, orange for cooler.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 08, 2019, 09:17:18 AM
Holy flying croissants batman!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/777936/Bizarre-croissant-shaped-UFO-spotted-Malta-conspiracy-theory-aliens

Possibly more to do with NO2 cooling down than undersea alien bases....


Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on March 08, 2019, 01:11:42 PM
Just thought I would pass by and reflect on what this particular Topic is all about.

''So the theory is that the members of the tent suffered strong exposure to NO2. This forced them to cut openings in the tent for ventilation before giving up and cutting open the tent to escape. Then they had no choice but to abandon the tent and head to the forest to seek shelter.''

Well obviously its about GAS. The Theory that a Gas of some kind made the Dyatlov Group abandon their Tent. And then the other events are supposed to have been related to the Gas event at the Tent. Its certainly a Theory worth discussion but I think its got a bit carried away. An awful lot of irrelevance as crept in. The Theory begins to suffer immediately  they leave the Tent, rather than gather outside to attempt to get back for their clothing and equipment, they just walk off a mile to their certain DEATH. That kind of does not make sense.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 09, 2019, 06:02:51 AM
Just thought I would pass by and reflect on what this particular Topic is all about.

''So the theory is that the members of the tent suffered strong exposure to NO2. This forced them to cut openings in the tent for ventilation before giving up and cutting open the tent to escape. Then they had no choice but to abandon the tent and head to the forest to seek shelter.''

Well obviously its about GAS. The Theory that a Gas of some kind made the Dyatlov Group abandon their Tent. And then the other events are supposed to have been related to the Gas event at the Tent. Its certainly a Theory worth discussion but I think its got a bit carried away. An awful lot of irrelevance as crept in. The Theory begins to suffer immediately  they leave the Tent, rather than gather outside to attempt to get back for their clothing and equipment, they just walk off a mile to their certain DEATH. That kind of does not make sense.
Well you are creating a narrative before dismissing it. I'm saying the colour of the hands and faces for SOME of the DP group (and Chivruay) has to be NO2. There are only three possible sources for it wrt the DPI, electro magnetic, rocket fuel and atomic explosion. I like the first one and it seems if he were still with us so would Ivanov. So i'm using this thread to promote the "electro magnetic source theory" by linking to reports of orange/black ufos which i believe are evidence that these objects are more prevalent in the atmosphere than many people realise, it's part of the case i'm making.
Now how this translates to a narrative on abandoning the tent etc i'm not sure. It maybe that NO2 wasn't the primary event but was also present (secondary effect). There seems to be an asymmetry of exposure, Yuri D probably the first to die with foam on his cheek and at the funeral he was significantly darker than Zinaida who was also affected. Igor's face colour was noted in the morgue. For Lyudmila it seems that she had her chin covered throughout and it stayed white. Some of the others like Semyon and Nicolai don't seem to be affected presumably because they were a few hundred metres away photographing the light show on the western ridge (i assert Plane1/Plane2 to be an electro magnetic object similar to the quebec one posted on this thread and possibly the source of the NO2 with the plume traveling downstream over the tent.
For the NO2 plume to be the primary event that drove them out of the tent it would have to be a dense concentration. The narrative could be that Yuri D was outside answering a call of nature when the dense plume hit, he rushed back in through the entrance choking, exposing everyone else to it who then exited through the sides and got away asap. By the time they reach the cedar it is clear that Yuri D is in a bad way and returning is unwise.
Now by this time it is very probable from Ivanov's interview that they have seen and photographed the fire orbs. If these were ball lightning rollers then it is plausible based on historical accounts of similar that the ravine four were crushed in their den under the snow by one rolling down the ravine. It's possible that they had already had a scare earlier (scorched tree tops, Yuri K's leg) and this was the reason for abandoning the fire and seeking shelter in the ravine. They thought it was safer.... The last three realised that their only chance was to get back on their skis and leave the area but the nitric acid in their lungs was taking effect and they couldn't handle the effort of the ascent back to the tent, Zina appears to have been found at the base of the steepest section. The cold did the rest.

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 09, 2019, 06:11:09 AM
Quote
I'm saying the colour of the hands and faces for SOME of the DP group (and Chivruay) has to be NO2.

Except there isn't any evidence of this other then hearsay, and IF any discoloration existed, its easily explained by the process of preparing the body for burial.   thumb1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 09, 2019, 06:18:06 AM
Quote
I'm saying the colour of the hands and faces for SOME of the DP group (and Chivruay) has to be NO2.

Except there isn't any evidence of this other then hearsay, and IF any discoloration existed, its easily explained by the process of preparing the body for burial.   thumb1
From this forum (that you moderate...) It's my understanding that the bodies were found in situ like this?

(https://d.radikal.ru/d24/1806/3a/c99f93b9fae7t.jpg)

This photo would seem to be a fit for the above theory, wind (WNW).

(https://c.radikal.ru/c27/1806/b9/b285ea8c7f56.jpg)
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 09, 2019, 07:22:41 AM
Found in what?   Where are you getting this?

Just because I moderate the forum does not mean I'm responsible for all its contents.    whacky1
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 09, 2019, 07:36:41 AM
Found in what?   Where are you getting this?

Just because I moderate the forum does not mean I'm responsible for all its contents.    whacky1

You're telling me that you haven't read the discussion on Chivruay? Rolls eyes...

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=204.0
Reply #8 posted by WAB.
It's all there. The map, the photo, the resultant yellow/orange skin. Looks like NO2 with the cold finishing them off to me.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 09, 2019, 07:46:45 AM
Let me get this straight...    now you are attributing things from a completely different case to the DP incident?   

Interesting
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 09, 2019, 07:54:17 AM
Let me get this straight...    now you are attributing things from a completely different case to the DP incident?   

Interesting

I'm arguing that Chivruay incident supports the case for NO2 better than the DPI... But together they nail it down.


You should read more of this forum. Some interesting stuff he said modestly....

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 09, 2019, 08:11:58 AM
I simply do not have the time to read everything posted, especially if its a post within a thread not actually based on the DP incident.  I read the OP don't get me wrong, but its simply not at the top of my list to return to.

However, what does it matter?

The fact will still remain that you seem to have a never ending appetite to use 'unknowns' as facts, then use those false facts to support or invent other false facts.  You start to lose people in your theory the more you do this. 

Don't eat the yellow snow. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 09, 2019, 09:47:28 AM
I simply do not have the time to read everything posted, especially if its a post within a thread not actually based on the DP incident.  I read the OP don't get me wrong, but its simply not at the top of my list to return to.

However, what does it matter?

The fact will still remain that you seem to have a never ending appetite to use 'unknowns' as facts, then use those false facts to support or invent other false facts.  You start to lose people in your theory the more you do this. 

Don't eat the yellow snow.
Known Facts - (1) sources and effects of NO2 including electro magnetism. (2) Ivanov's support for fire orbs.

If you're enveloped by an orange brown mist that smells like vinegar, don't breathe.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on March 09, 2019, 01:07:03 PM
Just thought I would pass by and reflect on what this particular Topic is all about.

''So the theory is that the members of the tent suffered strong exposure to NO2. This forced them to cut openings in the tent for ventilation before giving up and cutting open the tent to escape. Then they had no choice but to abandon the tent and head to the forest to seek shelter.''

Well obviously its about GAS. The Theory that a Gas of some kind made the Dyatlov Group abandon their Tent. And then the other events are supposed to have been related to the Gas event at the Tent. Its certainly a Theory worth discussion but I think its got a bit carried away. An awful lot of irrelevance as crept in. The Theory begins to suffer immediately  they leave the Tent, rather than gather outside to attempt to get back for their clothing and equipment, they just walk off a mile to their certain DEATH. That kind of does not make sense.
Well you are creating a narrative before dismissing it. I'm saying the colour of the hands and faces for SOME of the DP group (and Chivruay) has to be NO2. There are only three possible sources for it wrt the DPI, electro magnetic, rocket fuel and atomic explosion. I like the first one and it seems if he were still with us so would Ivanov. So i'm using this thread to promote the "electro magnetic source theory" by linking to reports of orange/black ufos which i believe are evidence that these objects are more prevalent in the atmosphere than many people realise, it's part of the case i'm making.
Now how this translates to a narrative on abandoning the tent etc i'm not sure. It maybe that NO2 wasn't the primary event but was also present (secondary effect). There seems to be an asymmetry of exposure, Yuri D probably the first to die with foam on his cheek and at the funeral he was significantly darker than Zinaida who was also affected. Igor's face colour was noted in the morgue. For Lyudmila it seems that she had her chin covered throughout and it stayed white. Some of the others like Semyon and Nicolai don't seem to be affected presumably because they were a few hundred metres away photographing the light show on the western ridge (i assert Plane1/Plane2 to be an electro magnetic object similar to the quebec one posted on this thread and possibly the source of the NO2 with the plume traveling downstream over the tent.
For the NO2 plume to be the primary event that drove them out of the tent it would have to be a dense concentration. The narrative could be that Yuri D was outside answering a call of nature when the dense plume hit, he rushed back in through the entrance choking, exposing everyone else to it who then exited through the sides and got away asap. By the time they reach the cedar it is clear that Yuri D is in a bad way and returning is unwise.
Now by this time it is very probable from Ivanov's interview that they have seen and photographed the fire orbs. If these were ball lightning rollers then it is plausible based on historical accounts of similar that the ravine four were crushed in their den under the snow by one rolling down the ravine. It's possible that they had already had a scare earlier (scorched tree tops, Yuri K's leg) and this was the reason for abandoning the fire and seeking shelter in the ravine. They thought it was safer.... The last three realised that their only chance was to get back on their skis and leave the area but the nitric acid in their lungs was taking effect and they couldn't handle the effort of the ascent back to the tent, Zina appears to have been found at the base of the steepest section. The cold did the rest.

Well you are ignoring the fact that they never went back into the tent to get their SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, ie clothes etc. They couldnt have been that affected by any GAS if they were capable of walking a mile to the Trees and then doing other actions, can they.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on March 09, 2019, 01:40:19 PM
Also there is much mention of the orange color of skin, caused only by NO2. Well what about something a bit more simple and easy to understand. The orange color of skin could be caused by BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 10, 2019, 12:42:07 AM

Well you are ignoring the fact that they never went back into the tent to get their SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, ie clothes etc. They couldnt have been that affected by any GAS if they were capable of walking a mile to the Trees and then doing other actions, can they.
Yes they can, NO2 is dangerous because it converts to nitric acid but it does so slowly.... So there's a delayed reaction. Yuri D walked down the hill and then died by the fire and it all fits with NO2.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on March 11, 2019, 12:09:13 PM

Well you are ignoring the fact that they never went back into the tent to get their SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, ie clothes etc. They couldnt have been that affected by any GAS if they were capable of walking a mile to the Trees and then doing other actions, can they.
Yes they can, NO2 is dangerous because it converts to nitric acid but it does so slowly.... So there's a delayed reaction. Yuri D walked down the hill and then died by the fire and it all fits with NO2.


So if it was that slow then all of the Dyatlov Group had time to gather their clothing and equipment for survival.
And I suggest that it is much more likely that BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA caused the orange color than NO2 poisoning.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 11, 2019, 12:59:03 PM

Well you are ignoring the fact that they never went back into the tent to get their SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, ie clothes etc. They couldnt have been that affected by any GAS if they were capable of walking a mile to the Trees and then doing other actions, can they.
Yes they can, NO2 is dangerous because it converts to nitric acid but it does so slowly.... So there's a delayed reaction. Yuri D walked down the hill and then died by the fire and it all fits with NO2.


So if it was that slow then all of the Dyatlov Group had time to gather their clothing and equipment for survival.
And I suggest that it is much more likely that BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA caused the orange color than NO2 poisoning.


Blunt force trauma that didn't exist at their autopsies?
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 12, 2019, 04:49:15 AM
Show me where the autopsy reports state 'orange skin', and I'll be all about it.  Otherwise, its a farce. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 12, 2019, 05:30:20 AM
Show me where the autopsy reports state 'orange skin', and I'll be all about it.  Otherwise, its a farce.
We've been around this loop before? Just to repeat.

The argument is that for the first five, the nitric acid / keratin reaction took some time after the bodies were thawed and wasn't observable until the funerals were it was very obvious to the mourners and in photographs.

However for the ravine four in the spring thaw the reaction would have had ample time and it does appear on Lyudmila. (Note her chin in the morgue photo, protected by a scarf?).
After the removal of the clothes there was found: a female corpse of proper constitution and good nutrition, 167 cm long. The post-mortem lividity is of bluish grey colour, particularly on the posterior and lateral surface of neck, body and extremities. Dark blond hair on the head, braided into one braid up to 50 cm long with a blue silk ribbon. The forehead is straight, retreating to the back. The skin of the face is of yellowish brown colour.
 

Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on March 13, 2019, 07:29:56 AM
The author only states the face.... of ONE victim.  I will have to look at the original report to see if your fav author is inventing false facts again.  However, you do realize that she was found months later half rotten and face down in a creek....  right?   

Interesting how you can tell people in a black/white photo are mourning because her skin is orange.    bigjoke

Perhaps they are mourning because she is dead...   just a guess, I could be way off base. 

How much makeup will you have when you die, and what color will it be? 

Do you also realize that two autopsies were performed, and the bodies had ample time to thaw prior, but yet nothing in the original case files regarding strange discoloration (orange) of skin.  You would think such an enormously important fact would be well documented.   

I call MAJOR BS on orange face. 
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 13, 2019, 10:24:09 AM
The author only states the face.... of ONE victim.  I will have to look at the original report to see if your fav author is inventing false facts again.  However, you do realize that she was found months later half rotten and face down in a creek....  right?   
and most of the time frozen solid

Interesting how you can tell people in a black/white photo are mourning because her skin is orange.    bigjoke What are you talking about?


Perhaps they are mourning because she is dead...   just a guess, I could be way off base. 

How much makeup will you have when you die, and what color will it be? 
We don't that stuff in the UK (closed coffins).

Do you also realize that two autopsies were performed, and the bodies had ample time to thaw prior, but yet nothing in the original case files regarding strange discoloration (orange) of skin.  You would think such an enormously important fact would be well documented.   
I've answered this before? Deja vu?

I call MAJOR BS on orange face.
Deja vu.
Title: Re: Nitrogen dioxide slowly converts to Nitric acid on contact
Post by: sarapuk on March 13, 2019, 02:40:55 PM

Well you are ignoring the fact that they never went back into the tent to get their SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, ie clothes etc. They couldnt have been that affected by any GAS if they were capable of walking a mile to the Trees and then doing other actions, can they.
Yes they can, NO2 is dangerous because it converts to nitric acid but it does so slowly.... So there's a delayed reaction. Yuri D walked down the hill and then died by the fire and it all fits with NO2.


So if it was that slow then all of the Dyatlov Group had time to gather their clothing and equipment for survival.
And I suggest that it is much more likely that BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA caused the orange color than NO2 poisoning.


Blunt force trauma that didn't exist at their autopsies?

There are references to BRUISING etc and that can be as a result of Blunt Force Trauma. We dont know the severity of the Forces involved. And the Autopsies left a lot to be desired.