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July 29, 2020, 08:50:11 AM
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MDGross


WAB, You are our resident expert on Soviet Union military topics. So I wanted to ask you about the statement Bienko made in his 2013 interview that Teddy has made available on the site. He said: "The officers [military] told her [Bienko's mother]  that they had heard about tests in this area [Northern Urals] of acoustic low-frequency psychic weapons." Do you believe there is any truth in this statement?
 

July 29, 2020, 10:01:12 AM
Reply #1
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Teddy

Administrator
"The officers [military] told her [Bienko's mother]  that they had heard about tests in this area [Northern Urals] of acoustic low-frequency psychic weapons."

Bienko's wife actually. Bienko's mother didn't like the Komsomol, but then started worshiping it because they saved his son's life. Bienko's wife is teaching English to the officers.
 

July 29, 2020, 11:34:39 AM
Reply #2
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WAB


WAB, You are our resident expert on Soviet Union military topics. So I wanted to ask you about the statement Bienko made in his 2013 interview that Teddy has made available on the site. He said: "The officers [military] told her [Bienko's mother]  that they had heard about tests in this area [Northern Urals] of acoustic low-frequency psychic weapons." Do you believe there is any truth in this statement?

No, it's out of the question. It's not about what I believe, it's about the real technical and military aspects of this action.
1. It wasn't until the '90s that acoustic weapons were introduced in various countries. Including Russia, but this was not given much attention and did not allocate much money. Only preliminary research works were conducted.
2. At the end of the 1950s, the USSR had two priority areas in its defense industry - nuclear and thermonuclear weapons (bombs and missile warheads) and delivery means - missiles and, to lesser extent, long-range aircraft. Other areas were almost never developed or developed very little. Both then and now, military development spending is many times less than in the U.S. (now it is about 15 times less, I think the ratio was even higher back then). That's why at that time it was not until such exotic developments.
3.  Such experiments require very large amounts of energy (from units to tens megawatts) and huge equipment amounts, so it is impossible have such powerful and gigantic equipment in that area. For the same reasons, in the 2000s the military administration refused use such weapons directly.
4.  To now date, there are no roads with normal cross-country ability in that area, even for army-type heavy-duty trucks. If we go back 60 years, there were only very bad hiking trails and winter roads for the Mansi deer sleds. Any military trials require large infrastructure and organization of residential settlements, which it can not be hidden and made so that they do not leave traces in nature. Between 1970 and 1986, military radar was installed on Mount Chistop, so the road was specially constructed and there are many different traces of that activity. Conducting any military tests would have created infrastructure several times larger. However, there are no traces of such activities there. Even the roads (very poor cross-country ability) that are there now were temporary roads connected with logging in the 60s and 70s...
5. I have already said many times that any talk from relatives of the deceased (if they are not specialists in what they are talking about) is very counterproductive method truth finding out. Psychologically, for his is always better for them think that someone is specifically blame for the deaths of their relatives. So they grab any rumors and conversations that they can think of around them. It's easier for them accept death of their own people. It's the normal psychology of those who have lost something of great value to them.
6. I have already seen and read several times that some "officers" talk and write lot of nonsense because they deal with fantasies, and not memories. And very often "officers" are not officers, but just strangers. This is often done for the public or make them famous in the media.
 

July 29, 2020, 01:05:59 PM
Reply #3
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MDGross


Thanks for the correction Teddy.

WAB you are amazing with your depth of knowledge. Many in this forum, especially me, offer theories with no factual evidence. I'm trying to learn from your example.
I believe your infrasound scenario makes the most sense. Exiting their tent the way the Dyatlov group did was such an irrational act. They were not in their right minds at least temporarily.

 

July 29, 2020, 02:07:21 PM
Reply #4
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Ting


MD Gross - It is frustrating trying to piece everything together and therefore tempting to grasp at straws.  cry2
These deep rabbit holes are just dead ends.  bang1
We are always hearing lots of wild ideas we just need to see something concrete and new that we have all missed.  shock1
I learn something new every time I come on this site. Even if it is not worth knowing !  lol2

Лучше один раз увидеть, чем сто раз услышать.  grin1
It is better to see it once than hear it a hundred times.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 11:01:54 PM by Teddy »
 

July 30, 2020, 03:04:38 AM
Reply #5
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Nigel Evans


Exiting their tent the way the Dyatlov group did was such an irrational act. They were not in their right minds at least temporarily.
Leaving a flashlight switched on halfway down the slope could be interpreted as very rational behaviour, heading for the cedar which sat on a mound and whose branches provided the best firewood was clearly a rational action (if interpreted as a beacon for scattered members). Ditto building a den. The infrasound theory has to explain why ALL nine members immediately left the tent AND not even one of them returned for clothing even though extreme cold was the enemy. They cannot clearly behave rationally in the forest and have their failure to return for more clothing explained as irrational. The obvious explanation is that they they were forced to flee a threat to life at the tent and felt unable to return because of it. But this threat appeared to be local to the tent's position and they felt safe in the forest just 1500m away.




 

July 30, 2020, 07:24:51 AM
Reply #6
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MDGross


Do you still favor the exploded missile theory, Nigel? That wouldn't be a local event to the tent's position since toxic fumes carried on the wind would spread some distance from the tent. What, in your opinion, was the threat that forced them to leave the tent?

As for the members making rational decisions once they reached the forest, I'll leave that for WAB to explain.
 

July 30, 2020, 09:00:44 AM
Reply #7
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MDGross


Hi Ting, Mentally and emotionally I've tried to put myself into the tent with the group and imagined what could have caused me to act the way they did? What dangerous and immediate threat did they face that forced them to act the way they did? And then why did they flee to the forest in the dark and freezing temperatures? The best I can do is try to give it all some sort of organization.
I. Why did they exit the tent?
A. They acted rationally to a natural occurring event.
B. They acted irrationally to an event that affected their minds; they were not able to think clearly.
C. They were forced to act the way they did by others – KGB, CIA, etc.
D. They were forced to act in the face of some terrible internal conflict.

II. Why the necessity of fleeing to the forest?
A. They believed the threat was ongoing and the forest offered protection.
B. They still were not of sound mind and fled into the dark until they were stopped by the forest.
C. They were forced by others to march to the forest.
 

July 30, 2020, 09:13:36 AM
Reply #8
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Nigel Evans


Do you still favor the exploded missile theory, Nigel? That wouldn't be a local event to the tent's position since toxic fumes carried on the wind would spread some distance from the tent. What, in your opinion, was the threat that forced them to leave the tent?

As for the members making rational decisions once they reached the forest, I'll leave that for WAB to explain.
I'd express it differently. There are a group of theories that can explain all the evidence (which i like) and there are those that can't (which i don't like). The military activity theory can explain all the evidence of course. Some other theories get very close, like the atmospheric electricity theory, n.b. this doesn't need ball lightning, conventional lightning discharge would work in forcing them out of the tent, injuring several on the descent and convincing the survivors to stay in the forest. The murder theory works just as well and explains the ravine injuries. N.B. the ravine injuries could have a natural explanation in a slab slide (tons of snow sitting on graupel rolling forward).
Wrt your question, i was interested in Mihail Sharavin's interview - https://dyatlovpass.com/sharavin-1?rbid=18461 were he clearly blamed toxic fumes from rocket fuel - "Flash and explosion. And then just rocket fuel. They have traces of obvious poisoning for everyone. They all had nasopharynx filled with foam, these are clear signs of poisoning."Don't forget that within the forest there is little wind which presumably passes above the tree tops. Only the treeline would experience these fumes and the evidence supports this. Unless you climbed the tallest tree in the forest.....
The interesting bit is the photos, Ivanov clearly believed they were significant, hence his fireorbs stuff. The only way to explain them is to dismiss them or accept the military or electricity (including ball lightning) theories.

Infra sound seems to require everyone to go mad at the same instant and then 1500 metres later, get sensible again, then one of them falls out of a tree onto a fire for sufficient time to get a third degree burn, then they get sensible again and build a den, then at least three of them fall off a 4 metre drop. Hmmm crazy stuff indeed.

 

July 30, 2020, 09:35:59 AM
Reply #9
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WAB


WAB you are amazing with your depth of knowledge.

This must be my"flaw" about my education at three universities.   grin1
In the old days we had a very big competition when entering universities, so everyone who got there had good basic training. We did not have training for money, so we could only enter at the expense of knowledge, which had to be strictly proved directly to the professor who took the entrance exams.
Do not overestimate me, my knowledge is only in the sections that we consider. There are still many others that we do not touch. If you compare it with many participants in Russian forums on this topic, there are many others who know as much as I do.


Many in this forum, especially me, offer theories with no factual evidence. I'm trying to learn from your example.
I believe your infrasound scenario makes the most sense.

I just don't think it was artificial. There's not much man can do compared to the forces of nature. Nature has everything necessary for this: both conditions and powers and a set of phenomena.
In the case of infrasound phenomena (IS), there is a logical and continuous chain that provides explanations almost along the entire chain of events.
For example: Occurrence of this phenomenon (infrasound) at this place (the area of the pass itself above the forest border) - gradual accumulation of negative phenomena - emergence of ASC (altered state of consciousness - ASC) - escaping from the tent after the accumulation of a critical dose of exposure - since the orientation in this state was completely disrupted, the participants were in different places - some participants were injured, for example Tibo and Slobodin - further (when entering the zone of vegetation and disturbance of IS) they are in loss orientation, but begin get from the IS zone to downmount.
 Other people try slowly carry Tibo to the forest zone those who are in row - the rest go down different ways, to the forest, where you can light fire and warm up - the fastest cedar (this is almost the only place where there is suitable firewood) are 2 Yura - much later there (not to the cedar itself, and not far from it) come those 4, which were then in the ravine.
Since it was cold, and the heat consumption greatly exceeded the possibility of this replenishment in clothes like theirs, they gradually lost the ability to move (from fatigue in heavy traffic) and stopped. In the high cold it is fatal because the muscles lose the ability to move and the person gradually dies. The period from the beginning of cold to dying is long, but only in the beginning it is possible to have a full state of consciousness for a short time when a person perceives the situation well. Then his consciousness is gradually lost. In those conditions the possibility to survive is measured by a few hours. If all this is laid out on the ground, then we see the full picture, which is described in the criminal case. We have no other real documents for analysis.
Unfortunately, many other theories do not have such a chain. Or there are non-existent or impossible objects attracted to events.

Exiting their tent the way the Dyatlov group did was such an irrational act. They were not in their right minds at least temporarily.

This is the Altered State of Consciousness (ASC), which is a consequence of a disturbance in the functioning of the human brain, because exposure IS occurs at "harmful" frequencies of brain biorhythms (specifically, that is -dominated Alpha and Theta-rhythm alternating and Theta-rhythm is prevail), when exposure IS enters into resonance with these frequencies.
 

July 30, 2020, 09:39:21 AM
Reply #10
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WAB


Do you still favor the exploded missile theory, Nigel? That wouldn't be a local event to the tent's position since toxic fumes carried on the wind would spread some distance from the tent. What, in your opinion, was the threat that forced them to leave the tent?

If we take into account specific historical facts and the sequence of missile flight, it would look completely wrong.
1. The rocket could not fly there, because there were no missiles that could have such range or trajectory of flight.
2. All (almost all) rocket fuel spends when it starts move (further the rocket flies like as slingshot ball (shoot slingshot - ) - so the rocket is called ballistic), so at the end of it has nothing create "toxic fumes". This is true even without the fact that if there are crumbs of fuel, when hitting the ground of the rocket itself, they explode with it, leaving no trace.

As for the members making rational decisions once they reached the forest, I'll leave that for WAB to explain.

I'll try explain as soon as I can, but I can't promise to do it quickly. There may be big breaks when I can write here.
PS. Dear MDGross !
I've already started to use the title of this topic - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=418.0 , and you've started again with almost the same title. I understand that there are a lot of different topics already gathered here and it is difficult to find something suitable for an operational question, but in order not to repeat everything over and over again, it would be better to reduce the number of identical topics in which the same questions are discussed. This is very difficult to follow and you have to waste a lot of time.
Maybe we could ask Teddy or Loose }{Cannon merge these two topics into one and suggest to other participants not increase the number of topics without necessity? At the same time, we should ask everyone not open new topics in this section if similar issue is discussed in special section's profile topic. It is very difficult keep track of what is happening in general if the number of topics can no longer be seen at once.
This is my proposal, its implementation will depend on the desire and capabilities of both the administration and all users.
 

July 30, 2020, 03:49:32 PM
Reply #11
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RidgeWatcher


Thank you, so much WAB for answering all the questions, I have read and looked at the IS (Infrasound) phenomena along with the ASC (altered state of consciousness) among the Dyatlov hikers as you present scientific based answers that do, indeed, follow a logical chain from the tent to the ravine.

My question is would be is there any correlation between IS and its less exciting cousin, "sound" in particular on the Beaufort Scale of 9-10 or even above which can induce sheer terror in human beings?
 

July 30, 2020, 07:42:30 PM
Reply #12
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lucid-nonsense


Exiting their tent the way the Dyatlov group did was such an irrational act. They were not in their right minds at least temporarily.
Leaving a flashlight switched on halfway down the slope could be interpreted as very rational behaviour

I don't think flashlights lasted that long back then.
 

July 30, 2020, 11:34:54 PM
Reply #13
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Morski


Exiting their tent the way the Dyatlov group did was such an irrational act. They were not in their right minds at least temporarily.
Leaving a flashlight switched on halfway down the slope could be interpreted as very rational behaviour

I don't think flashlights lasted that long back then.

Could be also interpreted as not necessarily being "left" there. If they were not in a very sound state of mind, it could be simply being dropped there.

Even in the forest area, there are still signs we can relate to odd behavior. The scattered clothes for example. Some of the group members made the physical and mental (emotional) effort to strip clothes from the bodies of their dead friends, and in the same time some of the clothes end up scattered around as if are waste.

On the other hand, it is possible that they were simply being dropped on the way as well. If someone was carrying a pile of gathered clothes, some of them may have easily fallen off.

The whole story implies a bizarre mixture of irrational + rational actions, and between some of them we can hardly draw a line.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 01:39:02 AM by Morski »
"Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it." Mark Twain
 

July 31, 2020, 04:01:52 AM
Reply #14
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Nigel Evans


Exiting their tent the way the Dyatlov group did was such an irrational act. They were not in their right minds at least temporarily.
Leaving a flashlight switched on halfway down the slope could be interpreted as very rational behaviour

I don't think flashlights lasted that long back then.

Could be also interpreted as not necessarily being "left" there. If they were not in a very sound state of mind, it could be simply being dropped there.

Even in the forest area, there are still signs we can relate to odd behavior. The scattered clothes for example. Some of the group members made the physical and mental (emotional) effort to strip clothes from the bodies of their dead friends, and in the same time some of the clothes end up scattered around as if are waste.

On the other hand, it is possible that they were simply being dropped on the way as well. If someone was carrying a pile of gathered clothes, some of them may have easily fallen off.

The whole story implies a bizarre mixture of irrational + rational actions, and between some of them we can hardly draw a line.
If it was dark, leaving a flashlight switched on is either very rational or very irrational unless the owners had gone blind. The chemical theory can explain the blindness and suggest that zinaida, rustem and igor never got to the cedar picking up injuries in falls. I like the theory that they split up on the descent (as suggested in the case files) and one group got whacked whilst the other reached the cedar with no real mishap. N.b. from memory some rocket fuels (hydrazine?) have halluciogenic derivatives.
Wrt the mix of rational/irrational behaviour at the cedar this would fit with the assertion that if members of the group became irrational they would so in different degrees at different times. Imo the big problem with the infra sound theory is that they all have to 'flip' together with no one left rational enough to fill a rucksack with clothing/footwear.
 

July 31, 2020, 05:03:05 AM
Reply #15

eurocentric

Guest
Hypothermia can make people behave irrationally. Their problem solving, cognition and speech can be profoundly affected, as is their coordination, and for some reason this lot had carried fuel up a mountain but didn't unpack their stove. Some of them started taking off their outer clothing and shoes in an unheated tent with a hole plugged with a coat. This cold case got colder still the moment they did that.

In every online account of this mystery it's automatically assumed they cut their way out of the tent due to an imminent danger, that every single second counted, but I have asked myself why did it need that number of slashes, including horizontal cuts and what looks like 5 stabbings at one end. It's hardly an efficient means of emergency egress. Where was the elbow room.

What it required was perhaps 2 vertical cuts, the canvas cutting easier in that direction, and they could all pile out downhill like paratroopers off a plane. By the time they'd finished I'm sure any would-be avalanche would have already had them down the mountain.

Assuming they did this in panic, along with fleeing the scene with no time to pick up what they needed to survive, appears to make sense when assessed in isolation, but when you add how they all "calmly walked" down the pass, as it is invariably described due to their footprints, it requires a sudden change in behaviour and threat, and yet they do not return to the tent to grab what is most vital.

Replace panic with confusion due to the 'umbles' of Stage 2 hypothermia (mumbles, fumbles, grumbles, stumbles and eventually crumbles) and suddenly all the oddities tie in together. And I'd say most of the injuries too, traversing 5 stony ridges in the dark, climbing trees, a fist fight at the cedar tree and possibly falling into the ravine.

And while they would build the den to survive, that too could ironically be interpreted as a feature of hypothermia - terminal burrowing, a primeval 'hide & die' instinct.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:46:16 AM by eurocentric »
 

July 31, 2020, 09:37:46 AM
Reply #16
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MDGross


Per WAB's scenario, everyone in the tent was subject to a "critical dose of exposure" to infrasound. So everyone became irrational to some degree. The most seriously affected would feel fear and panic, perhaps some of the others confusion and agitation. Once those seriously affected fled the tent, everyone else followed. Once they reached the safe zone of the forest, their minds cleared at different rates. I agree with you, Nigel, that there was a mix among the group of rationality/irrationality once they began to recover in the forest.
 

July 31, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
Reply #17
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Nigel Evans


Per WAB's scenario, everyone in the tent was subject to a "critical dose of exposure" to infrasound. So everyone became irrational to some degree. The most seriously affected would feel fear and panic, perhaps some of the others confusion and agitation. Once those seriously affected fled the tent, everyone else followed. Once they reached the safe zone of the forest, their minds cleared at different rates. I agree with you, Nigel, that there was a mix among the group of rationality/irrationality once they began to recover in the forest.
Some interesting research in this field - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrasound#Suggested_relationship_to_ghost_sightings

So if people started "seeing things" they might stab at them? If the resonance is intense enough they might start losing their sight (walk abreast hand in hand?). If the effect is local to the tent Semyon and Nicolai being elsewhere could have been unaffected and remained "rational".
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:43:14 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

July 31, 2020, 03:10:11 PM
Reply #18
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lucid-nonsense


Hypothermia can make people behave irrationally. Their problem solving, cognition and speech can be profoundly affected, as is their coordination, and for some reason this lot had carried fuel up a mountain but didn't unpack their stove. Some of them started taking off their outer clothing and shoes in an unheated tent with a hole plugged with a coat. This cold case got colder still the moment they did that.

In every online account of this mystery it's automatically assumed they cut their way out of the tent due to an imminent danger, that every single second counted, but I have asked myself why did it need that number of slashes, including horizontal cuts and what looks like 5 stabbings at one end. It's hardly an efficient means of emergency egress. Where was the elbow room.

What it required was perhaps 2 vertical cuts, the canvas cutting easier in that direction, and they could all pile out downhill like paratroopers off a plane. By the time they'd finished I'm sure any would-be avalanche would have already had them down the mountain.

Assuming they did this in panic, along with fleeing the scene with no time to pick up what they needed to survive, appears to make sense when assessed in isolation, but when you add how they all "calmly walked" down the pass, as it is invariably described due to their footprints, it requires a sudden change in behaviour and threat, and yet they do not return to the tent to grab what is most vital.

Replace panic with confusion due to the 'umbles' of Stage 2 hypothermia (mumbles, fumbles, grumbles, stumbles and eventually crumbles) and suddenly all the oddities tie in together. And I'd say most of the injuries too, traversing 5 stony ridges in the dark, climbing trees, a fist fight at the cedar tree and possibly falling into the ravine.

And while they would build the den to survive, that too could ironically be interpreted as a feature of hypothermia - terminal burrowing, a primeval 'hide & die' instinct.

Finding the tent again in a blizzard might've been impossible.
 

August 01, 2020, 04:32:52 AM
Reply #19
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Nigel Evans


Hypothermia can make people behave irrationally. Their problem solving, cognition and speech can be profoundly affected, as is their coordination, and for some reason this lot had carried fuel up a mountain but didn't unpack their stove. Some of them started taking off their outer clothing and shoes in an unheated tent with a hole plugged with a coat. This cold case got colder still the moment they did that.

In every online account of this mystery it's automatically assumed they cut their way out of the tent due to an imminent danger, that every single second counted, but I have asked myself why did it need that number of slashes, including horizontal cuts and what looks like 5 stabbings at one end. It's hardly an efficient means of emergency egress. Where was the elbow room.

What it required was perhaps 2 vertical cuts, the canvas cutting easier in that direction, and they could all pile out downhill like paratroopers off a plane. By the time they'd finished I'm sure any would-be avalanche would have already had them down the mountain.

Assuming they did this in panic, along with fleeing the scene with no time to pick up what they needed to survive, appears to make sense when assessed in isolation, but when you add how they all "calmly walked" down the pass, as it is invariably described due to their footprints, it requires a sudden change in behaviour and threat, and yet they do not return to the tent to grab what is most vital.

Replace panic with confusion due to the 'umbles' of Stage 2 hypothermia (mumbles, fumbles, grumbles, stumbles and eventually crumbles) and suddenly all the oddities tie in together. And I'd say most of the injuries too, traversing 5 stony ridges in the dark, climbing trees, a fist fight at the cedar tree and possibly falling into the ravine.

And while they would build the den to survive, that too could ironically be interpreted as a feature of hypothermia - terminal burrowing, a primeval 'hide & die' instinct.

Finding the tent again in a blizzard might've been impossible.
Yes, sitting out the storm in the den might have been an obvious choice for those still alive.
 

August 02, 2020, 09:34:19 AM
Reply #20
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lucid-nonsense


Hi Ting, Mentally and emotionally I've tried to put myself into the tent with the group and imagined what could have caused me to act the way they did? What dangerous and immediate threat did they face that forced them to act the way they did? And then why did they flee to the forest in the dark and freezing temperatures? The best I can do is try to give it all some sort of organization.
I. Why did they exit the tent?
A. They acted rationally to a natural occurring event.
B. They acted irrationally to an event that affected their minds; they were not able to think clearly.
C. They were forced to act the way they did by others – KGB, CIA, etc.
D. They were forced to act in the face of some terrible internal conflict.

II. Why the necessity of fleeing to the forest?
A. They believed the threat was ongoing and the forest offered protection.
B. They still were not of sound mind and fled into the dark until they were stopped by the forest.
C. They were forced by others to march to the forest.

I. I feel like you're missing "Forced to exit the tent by a natural phenomenon".

II. You're misssing "They couldn't find the tent at night in a blizzard so they figured they would come back in the morning".
 

August 02, 2020, 09:35:45 AM
Reply #21
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lucid-nonsense



This is the Altered State of Consciousness (ASC), which is a consequence of a disturbance in the functioning of the human brain, because exposure IS occurs at "harmful" frequencies of brain biorhythms (specifically, that is -dominated Alpha and Theta-rhythm alternating and Theta-rhythm is prevail), when exposure IS enters into resonance with these frequencies.

IMO the flaw with the Infrasound Theory is that nothing like that has ever been observed any other time, AFAIK.
 

September 20, 2020, 04:54:53 AM
Reply #22
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WAB



This is the Altered State of Consciousness (ASC), which is a consequence of a disturbance in the functioning of the human brain, because exposure IS occurs at "harmful" frequencies of brain biorhythms (specifically, that is -dominated Alpha and Theta-rhythm alternating and Theta-rhythm is prevail), when exposure IS enters into resonance with these frequencies.

IMO the flaw with the Infrasound Theory is that nothing like that has ever been observed any other time, AFAIK.


I think this does not mean that such a phenomenon does not exist?
Such phenomena are very poorly studied academically, even in other places. But there are all the necessary and sufficient manifestations of this.