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Author Topic: Chernobyl  (Read 4176 times)

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January 29, 2023, 03:40:18 PM
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amashilu

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A few weeks ago, I watched the docu-drama "Chernobyl" for the first time. The producers claim that they attempted to re-create the disaster as closely as possible to the real events. 

Aside from the drama ... I want to note that there was one theme woven throughout the episodes that has brought about a shift in my thinking regarding the DPI. I was previously not aware of the extent to which the Soviet powers will go to preserve the "perfect face" of their country, that they are smarter and brighter and better in every way than all other countries, that they are incapable of defect or mistake. Even if it means the death of many of their citizens, they are willing to do what needs to be done to preserve this better-than-you image. According to "Chernobyl," this included almost unbelievable attempts to hide, deny, and cover up the incident.

I don't think this stance would have suddenly arisen in 1986, but as with most cultures, had been around for many years, surely as far back as 1959 and before.

Therefore, the point of this post is to add a layer of believability to those theories presented on this forum and elsewhere that believe the Soviet government had a hand in the incident and/or the cover-up, if there was one. That idea no longer seems implausible. And it actually makes me a little more skeptical of the "official" explanation of an avalanche, as well. Quickly cover up the incident and issue an official explanation ... hmmmm, there could be a pattern here.

 
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January 29, 2023, 07:48:12 PM
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GlennM


There could be a connection . I believe the group did not file a hiking plan, and only Yuri Yuden knew it and he said confidentially that nobody should be concerned until February 12( or15). My point is that assassination would be difficult if they, the killers, didn't know where to go. There is no report of a military or paramilitary expedition following them, nor is there any indication in journals that points to furtive behavior from the hikers or from their surroundings. The DP9 made no secret of their presence along the route. They were not running, nor hiding.Their Labaz, is evidence they wished to return from Ortoten. I see no reason to support assassination, nor coverup. These kids were not dissenters.

I do remember in Donnie Eichar's Dead Mountain book, there was some question as to why a foreigner would be interested in this case. " Don't you have any mysteries of your own", or something to that effect.

Maybe your point is that the authorities suppress information to the Russians and the free world for the sake of image...any image.


 

January 29, 2023, 09:02:12 PM
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GlennM


These conspiracy theories about lost cosmonauts involve others. Mikhail Rudenko is a scientist who worked for the Soviets and claimed that secret space flights took place in 1959, 1958, and 1957. It all came out in 2011, where he said that three pilots died in those flights, but their names weren’t published.

More secrecy
 

January 29, 2023, 10:50:35 PM
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Missi


I don't think much of the Chernobyl-series. I only watched the first 20 minutes, I have to admit (I'm phobic of radiation, so I sadly had to stop), but read a lot about it. I really wanted to see, how they put it to film and which differences I'd find to what I know about the accident (and I know a lot about that, I'd say).
The radiation burns they show, appear much too fast. And that's only one thing I remember about the false depiction of things. There were much more, I do remember that.

You are right, though, that there was a lot of secrecy involved. Some information that was not conveyed was not communicated because of lack of knowledge at the time being. Other information was consciously kept secret.
For example did the firefighters not know, that there was radiation involved. They thought it was just something burning. But then it was not known to the people who called them, that the hull of the reactor was breached.
Another example is the fact, that at first, they did not know, how high the radiation really was. But they did know, that it exceeded their geiger counters. Nevertheless they only communicated the numbers measured, not the fact that those couldn't be correct. This was to hopefully cover up the extend from the authorities. (Needless to say, that they didn't succeed.)
And for a third example, it was days of constant radiation before the authorities decided to evacuate the people of Prypjat. And even then told them it was just a safety measure and they would only be gone for a few days. The latter surely contributed to working against a panic. But the time they took before deciding on evacuation is crazy!

Knowing that, it's completely plausible, that A the investigation of the DPI was just fucked up, B there were some people on the lower end of the "chain of command" who wanted to safe their own asses or C the government itself wanted to keep something hidden.
All in all I find B the most fitting, but that's just my personal opinion.

GlennM, there was a plan, but it was not transmitted to the committees as should have been. Yuri Yudin knew, that they expected to be longer, because Igor told him to pass that message on. Yudin forgot to do so. But when he came back (after some time with his family), he was surprised, that the group was not back.
The lack of a report that someone was following the group is no evidence, I'd say. If there was an order, they would have kept it secret. And if it was a good military or paramilitary group, they would not let their "prey" know of their presence.

It seems I really have to get the book by Eichar...

As for the cosmonauts: I don't believe there is a way to have secret space flights. The start may be kept secret. But at some point, the rocket would have been detected. Therefore I'd expect the flights to have failed end thus killed the pilots. Am I wrong? Do you have a link with that information? I never heard of that.
 
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January 30, 2023, 09:34:49 AM
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tenne


that is a very common theme in Russian history. The sub that went down and the crew died, the russian government refused to admit it and then refused help when they couldn't deny it anymore. The Tunguska event, in 1908, was the fault of the american's using electricity to cause that explosion (latest theory is it was a metorite that exploded above the ground, not by hitting it)

as well, on the russian forum, no one argues that there wasn't a cover up or one wasn't a possibility, same as it seems to be accepted idea that both Semyon and Alekander were KGB.

There are a lot of comments on that forum about the corruption and fear of that era
 

January 30, 2023, 09:49:34 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator
that is a very common theme in Russian history. The sub that went down and the crew died, the russian government refused to admit it and then refused help when they couldn't deny it anymore. The Tunguska event, in 1908, was the fault of the american's using electricity to cause that explosion (latest theory is it was a metorite that exploded above the ground, not by hitting it)

as well, on the russian forum, no one argues that there wasn't a cover up or one wasn't a possibility, same as it seems to be accepted idea that both Semyon and Alekander were KGB.

There are a lot of comments on that forum about the corruption and fear of that era

tenne, that is very interesting. Can you tell more about the accepted idea on Russian forums that Semyon and Aleksander were KGB?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 09:58:52 AM by amashilu »
 

January 30, 2023, 10:59:37 AM
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anna_pycckux


A few weeks ago, I watched the docu-drama "Chernobyl" for the first time. The producers claim that they attempted to re-create the disaster as closely as possible to the real events. 
Aside from the drama ... I want to note that there was one theme woven throughout the episodes that has brought about a shift in my thinking regarding the DPI. I was previously not aware of the extent to which the Soviet powers will go to preserve the "perfect face" of their country, that they are smarter and brighter and better in every way than all other countries, that they are incapable of defect or mistake. Even if it means the death of many of their citizens, they are willing to do what needs to be done to preserve this better-than-you image. According to "Chernobyl," this included almost unbelievable attempts to hide, deny, and cover up the incident.
Я еще советую вам так же посмотреть фильм Андрея Кончаловского "Дорогие товарищи" о реальных событиях в Новочеркасске. Голодные и безоружные рабочие вышли на протестный митинг против повышения цен и снижения уровня жизни, и против них ввели войска и стали стрелять в народ.. погибли и женщины и дети... По неофициальным данным более 100 человек. Это очень страшное и трагическое событие. В Кремлевскую комиссию входил Кириленко А П... он вместе с другими участниками комиссии и Хрущевым - принимал решения по подавлению протеста.

I also advise you to also watch Andrei Konchalovsky's film "Dear Comrades" about real events in Novocherkassk. Hungry and unarmed workers went to a protest rally against price increases and lower living standards, and troops were brought in against them and began shooting at the people.. both women and children were killed... According to unofficial data, more than 100 people. This is a very terrible and tragic event. The Kremlin Commission included Kirilenko and P... he, along with other members of the commission and Khrushchev, made decisions to suppress the protest.
 

January 30, 2023, 11:35:34 AM
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tenne


that is a very common theme in Russian history. The sub that went down and the crew died, the russian government refused to admit it and then refused help when they couldn't deny it anymore. The Tunguska event, in 1908, was the fault of the american's using electricity to cause that explosion (latest theory is it was a metorite that exploded above the ground, not by hitting it)

as well, on the russian forum, no one argues that there wasn't a cover up or one wasn't a possibility, same as it seems to be accepted idea that both Semyon and Alekander were KGB.

There are a lot of comments on that forum about the corruption and fear of that era

tenne, that is very interesting. Can you tell more about the accepted idea on Russian forums that Semyon and Aleksander were KGB?

This is the link to the forum, I will also look for some specific comments. Unfortunately I tend to read that forum at 2am and I end up lost and can't find what I was reading, it is huge with thousands of comments

https://taina.li/
 

January 30, 2023, 11:37:36 AM
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tenne


The search function on that forum do NOT work well so its a matter of finding it all again
 

January 30, 2023, 02:39:37 PM
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Missi


I also advise you to also watch Andrei Konchalovsky's film "Dear Comrades" about real events in Novocherkassk. Hungry and unarmed workers went to a protest rally against price increases and lower living standards, and troops were brought in against them and began shooting at the people.. both women and children were killed... According to unofficial data, more than 100 people. This is a very terrible and tragic event. The Kremlin Commission included Kirilenko and P... he, along with other members of the commission and Khrushchev, made decisions to suppress the protest.

I remember seeing your post. It made me think of an event that took place in Germany in 1953. Or rather it took place in the GDR, one of the two Germanies that existed back than. I don't know, if it's common knowledge outside Germany (in fact I fear, that even IN Germany it's less and less young people knowing about it, so I'll just sketch was it was about:

There were strikes and demonstrations of the workers in the GDR. It was mainly a reaction to changes concerning the workload, the tendency to make people lose their own farms etc. in order to make the land and production public property and the situation of food and distribution of it.
It was on June 17th 1953, when the police of the GDR got help from their "big brother" USSR. They sent tanks. And those tanks were used against the peaceful protests.

I came to know about it by a song of one of my favorite singers, Reinhard Mey. He happened to see that day. He lived in Berlin, where one (or maybe the main thing? I don't know) happened. He wrote a song, including the line "Ich sah Menschen gegen Panzer kämpfen, mit der bloßen hand." meaning "I saw men/people fighting against tanks with their bare hands.".
I grew up with the knowledge thereof. And the GDR was NOT USSR, it was only closely connected to it. So knowing what happened in the GDR back then is why it's no wonder to me, that the government of the USSR acted like that against their own people.

Maybe knowing that and reading/watching a lot about what happened in Chernobyl (I was about to turn 6, when the reactor exploded), is why I tend to not trust the government concerning the DPI and am very much inclined to believe in manipulation on their part.
If someone wants to read into those happenings in the GDR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_German_uprising_of_1953
I didn't read it and the description above is mainly from my memory. I just keep forgetting which year it was, so I had to look that up.
 
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January 30, 2023, 10:15:29 PM
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anna_pycckux


There were strikes and demonstrations of the workers in the GDR. It was mainly a reaction to changes concerning the workload, the tendency to make people lose their own farms etc. in order to make the land and production public property and the situation of food and distribution of it.
It was on June 17th 1953, when the police of the GDR got help from their "big brother" USSR. They sent tanks. And those tanks were used against the peaceful protests.

Власть СССР секретила все неблаговидные поступки. В 1956 году были введены войска в Венгрию, в !968 году в Чехословакию. Воевали против народа. потому я считаю, что расстрел в Новочеркасске 1962г, Чимкенте. Тимертау 1959 год а так же гибель студентов на Перевале Дятлова - это звенья одной цепи. Стремление уничтожить сопротивление или даже подозрение на возможность сопротивления.
In 1956, troops were sent to Hungary, in !968 - to Czechoslovakia. They fought against the people. Therefore, I believe that the shooting in Novocherkassk in 1962, in Shymkent. The 1959 Timertau, as well as the death of students at the Dyatlov Pass, are links in the same chain. The desire to destroy resistance, or even the suspicion of the possibility of resistance.
 
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January 31, 2023, 09:23:03 AM
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tenne


I can also see it as a matter of soviet pride to hide the fact that their vaulted engineers etc were trying to escape. It's hard to pretend that the country is the greatest when the best are trying to leave and given what I know of the value placed on highly educated engineers etc, the soviets would not only stop them but hide the fact that they were trying to leave in the first place
 

January 31, 2023, 02:49:58 PM
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Missi


Maybe. But if they hid the fact, that highly educated citizens wanted to leave the country, that has no value in order to keep others from doing so.
If it was my decision to make, I'd rather invent a story, that they were brainwashed by US spies or something and were killed while trying to leave the country. Of course because they weren't taken care of enough by said spies. Or maybe in an accident, because it only became clear after their death, that they were brainwashed. That would make others think twice, if they would take chances to leave the country.
 

January 31, 2023, 02:57:34 PM
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GlennM


I can also see it as a matter of soviet pride to hide the fact that their vaulted engineers etc were trying to escape. It's hard to pretend that the country is the greatest when the best are trying to leave and given what I know of the value placed on highly educated engineers etc, the soviets would not only stop them but hide the fact that they were trying to leave in the first place
Their vaulted engineers would be closer to the border and better equipped. They just wanted to round Ortoten and get home to start a semester. They were engineers after all.
 

February 01, 2023, 04:59:33 PM
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GlennM


BTW the radioactive was found downunder.
 
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February 02, 2023, 10:28:47 AM
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tenne


Maybe. But if they hid the fact, that highly educated citizens wanted to leave the country, that has no value in order to keep others from doing so.
If it was my decision to make, I'd rather invent a story, that they were brainwashed by US spies or something and were killed while trying to leave the country. Of course because they weren't taken care of enough by said spies. Or maybe in an accident, because it only became clear after their death, that they were brainwashed. That would make others think twice, if they would take chances to leave the country.

The soviets didn't like to admit that anyone wanted to leave, remember, it was the workers paradise and those pesky workers better remember it or else they would be reminded, or as it was called 're educated'
 

February 02, 2023, 11:22:14 AM
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GlennM


Just more conspiracy spin! If you want to make some forum hay, dive into Igor's failure to provide maps and updates during the hike. That is bound to get all the conspiracy buffs lathered up.
 
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February 02, 2023, 11:41:40 AM
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Missi


Maybe. But if they hid the fact, that highly educated citizens wanted to leave the country, that has no value in order to keep others from doing so.
If it was my decision to make, I'd rather invent a story, that they were brainwashed by US spies or something and were killed while trying to leave the country. Of course because they weren't taken care of enough by said spies. Or maybe in an accident, because it only became clear after their death, that they were brainwashed. That would make others think twice, if they would take chances to leave the country.

The soviets didn't like to admit that anyone wanted to leave, remember, it was the workers paradise and those pesky workers better remember it or else they would be reminded, or as it was called 're educated'

Right. That's exactly the base on which I ground my argument. So?
 

February 02, 2023, 11:58:43 AM
Reply #18
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Ziljoe


Maybe. But if they hid the fact, that highly educated citizens wanted to leave the country, that has no value in order to keep others from doing so.
If it was my decision to make, I'd rather invent a story, that they were brainwashed by US spies or something and were killed while trying to leave the country. Of course because they weren't taken care of enough by said spies. Or maybe in an accident, because it only became clear after their death, that they were brainwashed. That would make others think twice, if they would take chances to leave the country.

The soviets didn't like to admit that anyone wanted to leave, remember, it was the workers paradise and those pesky workers better remember it or else they would be reminded, or as it was called 're educated'

Right. That's exactly the base on which I ground my argument. So?

I'm with Missi. Surly they would make an example of the DP9? That's my interpretation. Why cover it up ?
 

February 04, 2023, 07:27:02 AM
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eurocentric


One of the most frightening things I took away from the series was not just the brickwall denial but how the whole thing was initiated by the ambitions of two men in charge who thought that if they cut some corners and conducted rapid tests they would be well thought of by their regional masters and win promotion.

I live near a nuclear power station, although the gas-cooled reactor designs are safer than PWR the corporate atmosphere is little different in the UK, the managers deny all risk to the community and seek to recruit local schoolchildren into supporting nuclear power with bouncy castles and donating old computers. Nuclear is fun!

It took a local councillor, using the threat of the EU, to get local residents supplied with potassium iodate pills and emergency evacuation plans as we were one of 3 UK sites without this, but even there, and with most worldwide incidents happening during the night, we would be alerted by a phone call, TV and radio announcements and Facebook, and unless told otherwise are to remain indoors and close all windows.

There used to be talk of a loud hailer van going round but this has been cancelled. Residents suggestion of sirens on top of telegraph poles has never happened because that acknowledges danger and would need to be tested regularly, and the on-site sirens, which often go off and are tested weekly, are not for us, only staff, who also have their 'alternative egress' road, should they ever need to escape.

The plant is already operating beyond its original service life, and the graphite cores of these things develop hot spots as they age.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 04, 2023, 07:46:58 AM
Reply #20
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GlennM


One of the most frightening things I took away from the series was not just the brickwall denial but how the whole thing was initiated by the ambitions of two men in charge who thought that if they cut some corners and conducted rapid tests they would be well thought of by their regional masters and win promotion.

I live near a nuclear power station, although the gas-cooled reactor designs are safer than PWR the corporate atmosphere is little different in the UK, the managers deny all risk to the community and seek to recruit local schoolchildren into supporting nuclear power with bouncy castles and donating old computers. Nuclear is fun!

It took a local councillor, using the threat of the EU, to get local residents supplied with potassium iodate pills and emergency evacuation plans as we were one of 3 UK sites without this, but even there, and with most worldwide incidents happening during the night, we would be alerted by a phone call, TV and radio announcements and Facebook, and unless told otherwise are to remain indoors and close all windows.

There used to be talk of a loud hailer van going round but this has been cancelled. Residents suggestion of sirens on top of telegraph poles has never happened because that acknowledges danger and would need to be tested regularly, and the on-site sirens, which often go off and are tested weekly, are not for us, only staff, who also have their 'alternative egress' road, should they ever need to escape.

The plant is already operating beyond its original service life, and the graphite cores of these things develop hot spots as they age.

The lamb sleeping with the lion?
 

February 04, 2023, 01:20:05 PM
Reply #21
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Missi


One of the most frightening things I took away from the series was not just the brickwall denial but how the whole thing was initiated by the ambitions of two men in charge who thought that if they cut some corners and conducted rapid tests they would be well thought of by their regional masters and win promotion.

I live near a nuclear power station, although the gas-cooled reactor designs are safer than PWR the corporate atmosphere is little different in the UK, the managers deny all risk to the community and seek to recruit local schoolchildren into supporting nuclear power with bouncy castles and donating old computers. Nuclear is fun!

It took a local councillor, using the threat of the EU, to get local residents supplied with potassium iodate pills and emergency evacuation plans as we were one of 3 UK sites without this, but even there, and with most worldwide incidents happening during the night, we would be alerted by a phone call, TV and radio announcements and Facebook, and unless told otherwise are to remain indoors and close all windows.

There used to be talk of a loud hailer van going round but this has been cancelled. Residents suggestion of sirens on top of telegraph poles has never happened because that acknowledges danger and would need to be tested regularly, and the on-site sirens, which often go off and are tested weekly, are not for us, only staff, who also have their 'alternative egress' road, should they ever need to escape.

The plant is already operating beyond its original service life, and the graphite cores of these things develop hot spots as they age.

It was not the ambition of two men. The tests were mandatory. The power plant had been connected to the infrastructure and started to work without said tests. Now was the date set to finally do it. Because of reasons (as far as I remember there was a peak in energy consumption), the tests wouldn't take place during the day, as they should have, according to plan. Then, during the night shift, they were to take place, when there were only young engineers.
Yet, it is true, that the leaders of the shift, ordered that the tests would not be halted, even though the engineers suggested it, because the reactor behaved strangely.
But there was no actual corner cutting and no rapid tests.
The tests were too late. Firstly in comparison to the amount of time the plant had been working and secondly in terms of work shifts.