Reply #18
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... I have always had a doubt about the disappearing toxicology reports ..............................................
I could be wrong as I have not found anything to verify this, but I would tend to think that no toxicological test could detect the presence of BZ, in 1959, on month-old corpses.
In other words, I strongly doubt WarpedWing's assertion :
So, a liver test or a urinalysis that looks for specific markers might have been able to detect something.
But that is irrelevant since we cannot go back to 1959.
Reply #8
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Everything I write should likewise be questioned. I would love for everything in my theory to be disproved wrong in order to move on to other better theories,
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The BZ is a psycho incapacitating agent that causes delirium which himpedes the successful completion of any military task.
Indeed, the BZ could be used as a weapon that could considerably diminish the combat effectiveness of a large number of enemy soldiers, while having the advantage of being a non-lethal or, more precisely, a reduced lethal weapon.
On the other hand, following Eduard Tumanov's assessment hikers took part in a fight, either between them... I had considered testing a psycho-stimulant intended to increase (for a time) the combat effectiveness of the soldiers on one's own side.
This sort of super amphetamine could have increased aggressiveness and determination to the point of causing a disastrous and fatal Capgras syndrome
Jean Daniel Reuss: Altercation on the pass ---> Altercation on the pass : « February 03, 2020, 11:04:13 PM » --> Reply #15 and Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8382#msg8382
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8762#msg8762
Perhaps the Soviet military had plans to test Substance 78 on the Dyatlovites.
•• But whether it is a psycho incapacitant or a psycho stimulant, the preparation of a demonstration trial of this nature (with non-consenting human cobayes because they are kept in their ignoring state) is delicate.
The experimenters must necessarily be able to justify such a demonstration test with arguments showing that they will be able to obtain significant advances or progress.
This implies the organisation of observations, measurements, feedback and complete and detailed reports.
•• That is to say that a test of this nature is necessarily associated with important logistics that should not be forgotten.
More simply, I mean that the assertion:
It's also easy to watch the hikers' movements from a clandestine location, possibly above the Dyaltovites' campsite, with binoculars and a flare gun.
is an extremely weak and unconvincing argument.
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Part 1 : The region chosen for the test is unsuitable
••• Logically essential presence of specialized observers near the human cobayes constituted by the hikers is needed.
••• Physiological measurements (body temperature, blood pressure, heart rate, nerve impulse speed....etc.).
••• In the case of BZ, it is a psychotropic drug that disrupts the mental functioning of human cobayes.
It is above all a question of assessing the loss of the sense of reality and the (low) levels of consciousness and lucidity.
Detailed interrogations would have been essential since destructive hallucinations are practically undetectable by physiological measures.
••• Without being completely isolated the area of Mount Otorten is a little difficult to access.
How to bring the specialists of the BZ action to the test site ?
• By land on skis the journey requires at least a day from North-2, plus a few hours by truck for the journey vizhay - or other agglomeration - to North-2.
With a tracked vehicle, it would not be faster. See for example :
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Simplest Explanation is Often the Best " on: March 08, 2020, 12:15:13 AM " ---> Reply #17 and Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=589.msg8721#msg8721
• By air: the helicopters are noisy and very visible which would risk not going unnoticed by hikers and would distort the test.
In addition, if I understood correctly, the presence of a ground crew to secure the landing is usual in these windy hills.
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Part 2 : The Dyatlov's group was difficult to locate
••• Due to the lack of suitable maps, which were reserved for use by the Soviet army, the route of Dyatlov's group was particularly unclear and uncertain from the start.
••• It was only on 28 January that Yuri Yudin was able to confirm to Settlement 41 that the 9 hikers had entered the Auspiya valley (which was probably not the best choice of route).
••• With no way of knowing how fast they were progressing in the valley and with no set schedule, the position of the tent on 1 February was "somewhere between the Auspiya valley and the summit of Mount Otorten" which is remarkably inaccurate.
••• Above all, no particular task of military interest was imposed on the hickers.
(digging a trench, preparing a helicopter landing area by cutting down several trees, building a semi-permanent shelter......).
This would have made it possible to evaluate the reduction or total loss of efficiency caused by the BZ.
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Part 3 : Total lack of clues indicating the presence of experimenters or deliberate criminal behaviour of the experimenters ?
1) - There is no manifestation of the testers or experimenters.
2) - At first, the experimenters witness the delirious behaviour of the hickers who are injuring themselves or each other...
But then the experimenters witness some hikers falling in the snow, not getting up, and waiting patiently without intervening for long hours until they freeze to death.
This is not a test, it is a programmed killing!
3) - There is therefore a contradiction in the use of BZ considered to be a non-lethal or more exactly a reduced lethality weapon (unlike other chemical weapons: Tabun, Sarin, Soman......etc.) and the more or less predictable result of the so-called test: the 9 human cobayes are all dead, having been voluntarily deprived of the slightest help.
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Part 4 : Weakness of the argument :
I do think that most if not all deaths can be explained by extreme physical and mental distress and inability to make good decisions.
1) - I do not have much reason to doubt the opinion of Eduard Tumanov (Doctor of forensic medicine at Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University) and his views can be summarised as follows:
The hikers took part in a fight against outsiders
2) - Common sense is enough to indicate that the various wounds are produced by human attackers determined to leave no survivors.
Just look at these two web pages :
https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
••• Consider the injuries to the hands that make one suspect that some hikers may have struck with full force with their fists.
••• Consider the skull fractures caused by blunt object blows delivered with force and precision.
••• Consider the sunken chests which can easily be explained by trampoline-type exercises on the chest of the victim who was previously lying on his back.
••• Consider the eyes removed with a small spoon with edges previously sharpened with a grinding wheel...
3) - With his incisive style Charles has recently provided an additional statistical argument :
Charles : Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories « on: February 23, 2022, 11:36:36 AM » ---> Reply #45
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg17543#msg17543
They said "unknown compelling force", "unknown" but not blind... and even looking for the kill.
Charles : Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories « on: May 06, 2022, 09:38:06 PM » ---> Reply #56
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg17645#msg17645
Skull, sternum and ribs fractures only represent 6,57% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 90% of the fractures.
Arm, hand, leg and foot fractures represent 60,51% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 0% of the fractures.
In my opinion, the concentration of the 29 bone fractures in the blue circle also containing brain, heart and lungs can only mean "aiming at vital organs in the purpose to kill".
(https://i.ibb.co/pKn1Yf9/Grouping-of-bone-breaking-blows.png)
4) - Everyone can notice on the forums of various nationalities devoted to the DPI, the multiplication of more or less plausible theories which seek unconsciously or quite voluntarily, to avoid considering that the 9 hikers were simply assassinated by determined attackers.
• There is no one so deaf as the one who does not want to hear.
• There is no one so blind as the one who does not want to see.
Surely they exist. Surely someone will find them.
No. According to the law, copies of expert opinions are kept in an expert institution for 25 years. So if copies of the expert opinions were not destroyed immediately in 1959, they were destroyed in 1984 anyway.
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I also think a possibility is that samples were sent for analysis but it wasn't carried out because samples were unsuitable for example stored or collected incorrectly.
If they found wolverine spray, surely that's no reason to withhold the analysis.
If there was BZ, that's another matter, but I doubt the lab would be capable of identifying it at the time.