August 08, 2022, 10:04:04 AM
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1
General Discussion / Smoking promise
« Last post by GlennM on August 07, 2022, 03:58:32 PM »
I understand the tourists took a non smoking pledge at the outset. Nicotine is so addictive that drug addicts in prison are allowed to smoke. Could it be that going "cold turkey" was enough to make tempers flare to the point of rash decision making.?
2

              Reply #15
.................................
In my opinion it is most likely that the attackers were professional, trained killers on a mission to eradicate what was a potential threat to state security - if the students had observed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about. Their possible divulging state secrets to a friend, family member or spouse was a risk that could not be taken.

Trained special forces personnel do not react like "normal" people. They are able to keep calm when attacked, and the students would have no chance with their fists in close combat against professional killers.

              Reply #16
Because leaving bullet wounds or knife wounds make a totally different case. The condition of the success was not only not to leave cartridges cases behind but not to leave bullet wounds at all.
Not to use the firearm against a hiker was one of the only conditions to succeed. The attackers could fail many things but they had to kill all the hikers and to leave no bullet and knife wounds. It is not difficult to follow only two instructions. The attackers did not have to complete a list of 10 or 20 obligations, there were only two........

It is very clear that if there had been bullet wounds, the operation would have been a failure because it would have been obvious that the students were murdered.
That is the reason why the attackers did not use firearms for the killing: .... was to make the whole operation look like an accident......

--->  Not to use the firearm against a hiker was one of the only conditions to succeed. 

--->    It is very clear that if there had been bullet wounds, the operation would have been a failure because it would have been obvious that the students were murdered. 


Because you think that Russian investigators are fools and do not know that it is easy to commit murders without using guns or knives. !!!

Guns can be used to carry out massacres very quickly. This is undeniable. But where does this insane obsession with the necessity of guns come from ?

For trained killers, a few well adapted birch wood blunt objects are more than enough.
Besides, a good big stick is perhaps more reliable (for those who know how to use it) in close night combat than a shotgun with a (too) long barrel (which is more adapted to kill an elk at 50 meters).

If it was a condition of success not to use firearms, is it not simpler not to carry them at all?

---> ...........Was to make the whole operation look like an accident.

Since the attackers did not bother - or did not want - to do any staging, the operation did not look like an accident to objective people like Vladimir Askinadzi:

I do not know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.

Only orders came from the Kremlin and the ridiculous conclusion was imposed.
(a spontaneous force that tourists were unable to overcome) .



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

I cannot answer with certainty the questions "WHY?" and "WHO?" but there is one thing that I am certain of:

                        This is not the KGB.

Even assuming that the hikers could have seen - which is absurd - something that was a potential threat to state security .

It is absurd because as far as we can tell in 1959, the KGB personnel were quite competent and well trained and there were few smokers in its ranks.

And one of the tasks of the KGB was to dismantle and combat associations and organisations hostile to the Soviet regime in Moscow led by Khrushchev.

 But before fighting and dismantling, one must first identify the enemy, which is often the most difficult task for the internal security services.

Dyatlov's group had left Sverdlovsk on 23 January with the agreement and encouragement of the Soviet authorities (CPSU, Route Commission, UPI leadership.........
 
And on 1 February the KGB had the mission to eliminate the 9 hikers immediately on the spot in an unusual way ?

How could the group have changed its status in 8 days, without having undergone mysterious influences?
 
   Dyatlov's group was only small and unimportant pawns (except in a more complicated Rakitin-like scenario).

Dubinina could not have been the powerful conspiratorial mastermind capable of worrying Khrushchev.

There would necessarily have been much more powerful and dangerous accomplices or sponsors for the Khrushchev regime that the KGB had to identify. (Polish officers wanting to avenge Katyn, former Stalinist NKVD officers demonstrating against the Thaw, hostile Chechens or Lithuanians...etc.?)

The KGB would never have committed the monstrous fault of killing the hikers without having first interrogated them at length in premises adapted to intensive interrogation.

  If it had killed the hikers before having properly interrogated them, the KGB would have definitely lost any possibility of tracing the real perpetrators or initiators of what could have been a threat to the security of the state.                                                                                                                                                 

                               
3
So in one study, 100% of those intoxicated (with alcohol) had dilated pupils. In the other, only 59%, which is close to no correlation.
У пьяных бывают разные степени опьянения. Значит у остальных 41% была недостаточно тяжёлая степень опьянения.
Главное, что у замёрзших трезвыми зрачки всегда в 100% случаев узкие, без исключений. Не может быть, чтобы все трезвые замерзали только днём. Поэтому судмедэксперты вопросы освещения в своих научных работах не рассматривают.

But it's really unlikely that it managed to spray four people directly in the eye.

Quote
Даже мы, стоявшие значительно дальше, с чиханьем и кашлем отскочили назад; по нашим щекам струились слезы, будто кто-то бросил в нас гранату со слезоточивым газом...
Quote
Неделю не могли зайти в подвал после атаки скунса без слёз.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90993

I also think a possibility is that samples were sent for analysis but it wasn't carried out because samples were unsuitable for example stored or collected incorrectly.
Этот вопрос задавался специалистам. Исследование даже испорченного материала всё равно было бы проведено.

Вопрос:
Quote
Здравствуйте. Подскажите пожалуйста, если образцы, направленные на химическое и гистологическое исследования, при транспортировке (несколько сот километров) пришли в негодность - может судебный химик отказаться проводить исследования? Если да, то должен ли об этом составляться какой-либо акт? Или исследование всё равно будет проведено при любой степени гнилостных изменений? В направлении на исследование должно быть указано что именно надо искать или химик решает сам? Или действует по какой-то единой методике? Заранее благодарен.

Ответ:
Quote
Исследование все равно будет проведено, просто при оценке результата на отдельные вещества (или их группы) должны быть сделаны примечания о возможном влиянии гнилостных изменений биоматериала. Например, если будут обнаружены в гнилом материале небольшие концентрации высших алифатических спиртов (пропанол, бутанол, пентанол) - что это может быть новообразованием за счет гниения. Или количественное определение этанола в крови - которое таки должно быть проведено при любом ее состоянии - в гнилой крови будет иметь относительное значение (при решении вопроса о степени алкогольного опьянения или вообще о его наличии). А вопросы (на конкретные вещества или их группы) судебный химик сам себе не выдумывает, их ему ставят - танатологи, или судебно-следственные органы - в зависимости от множества обстоятельств дела, с которыми химик может быть и знаком. Методика исследования выбирается химиком исходя из поставленных вопросов, представленных объектов, наличия того или иного оборудования в лаборатории и многого другого. В это плане судебная химия напоминает игру в шахматы: не так важно, с какой пешки конкретной пошел, важен конечный итог "игры".
https://forum.xumuk.ru/topic/164381-%D0%B1%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81-%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%B8/
4

I am in favour of the exit from the tent through the atmosphere inside which was made unbreathable, either by the spray of a wolverine or by "they launched some kind of dope inside" according to the pleasant expression of Anatoliy Stepochkin (In Let Them Talk, Dmitriy Borisov 02/12/2019).

This seems much more likely to me than "at gun point" or "by a shot in the air".

 I agree: ===> A wolverine by means of its mercaptan-rich spray drives the hikers out of the tent, prevents them from returning, forces them to get rid of some equipment or clothes.

Moreover, Igor B. specifies that there was a warming up when leaving the tent, followed by a cooling down. This misled the hikers into underestimating the dangers of the cold.



Reply #24
.................what about the dilated pupils ?............
About the dilated pupils there are dozens, rather hundreds of chemical compounds, that could explain them and the question is off topic.

              There is still no doubt about freezing as the cause of death.
The "first" 5 hikers (3 on the slope, 2 under the cedar) received violent blows (from blunt objects) which made them lose consciousness and left them inanimate in the snow, thus unable to move and get up.
• Did they die from the cold or from the trauma they received?

The wolverine spray causes lung irritation, nausea, vomiting and diarrhoea, and even disturbances of consciousness and breathing for the most serious, but apparently no lasting hallucinations like the BZ.

It would be more interesting to know if the wolverine spray can cause suicidal or self-destructive thoughts. DPI may then be a case of mass suicide.



              Reply #24
The statistical reference to 90% this or that is absolute nonsense and has no relavence or evidence to murder from the 178 m researched data on broken bones.Total misuse of data. 
Charles did not invoke a  "statistical reference to 90% this or that"  but instead sent a nuanced text:

Charles : "I have no expertise in statistics but somebody should seriously analyze the Dyatlov's Pass event in terms of statistics.

•••  The distribution of bones fractures is not at random and even it defies the general statistics of bone fractures based on a 178 million cases study.

•••   Working on the broken bones has serious advantages as bone fracture is a precise fact and not an interpretation, as any bone fracture is always related to an accidental or catastrophic event of whatever type, as it is related to the hikers' death and to a force having caused death and as there is a number of 29 fractured bones for 9 individuals."


Considering everything that we know about hiker injuries:

https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
(nothing else ?)

This is the heart and soul of the problem :

Can this succession of misfortunes be explained by the mere chance of involuntary falls or crashes or, on the contrary, does it necessarily imply human intervention?
 
In Kolgomorova's case, we must imagine a fall or something that injures the side.
            a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton.


              Reply #24
......It is this uneducatef use of statistics that totally makes a mockery of any rational argument..............
..... Even it was murder, those stats have nothing to do with providing evidence....................

I take a different approach, as you probably already know.

The internet did not allow me to read the Lancet statisticians' article: "Global, regional, and national burden of bone fractures in 204 countries and territories, 1990-2019: a systematic analysis from the Global Burden of Disease Study 2019." based on the recording of 178 million bone fractures in 2019.

However, Charles' idea of introducing a statistical argument seems valid to me.

Of course, statistics do not provide any certainty.

But in this case, considering the succession of events or movements that could have randomly caused the injuries seen in the 9 hikers it is rational to compare them with natural accidents averaged over 178 million = 178000000 cases which is a large enough number to be taken statistically seriously.

The strangeness of the clustering of hiker injuries can thus be better appreciated and suggests that the impacts are not the result of chance alone
but were guided by an intelligence, which in my opinion can only be human.

5
Surely they exist. Surely someone will find them.
No. According to the law, copies of expert opinions are kept in an expert institution for 25 years. So if copies of the expert opinions were not destroyed immediately in 1959, they were destroyed in 1984 anyway.
[/l]
I also think a possibility is that samples were sent for analysis but it wasn't carried out because samples were unsuitable for example stored or collected incorrectly.


If they found wolverine spray, surely that's no reason to withhold the analysis.


If there was BZ, that's another matter, but I doubt the lab would be capable of identifying it at the time. 
6
Here it is. Igor's work.

Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils. Only in Kolmogorova the state of the pupils is not described. (For obvious reasons, the state of the pupils is not described in the four found in the stream, so we are not talking about them).

10 years ago, questions of statistics of signs of death from hypothermia interested an expert from Khabarovsk Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
http://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1891
He did a great job of studying 100 cases of death from cold and freezing.

Interesting things have come to light. For example, it turned out that the “pose of a chilled person”, which was considered almost mandatory for a frozen person, was met only in 2% of cases.
But the main thing is the pupils. Of the 100 examined, 13 were sober and all had constricted pupils. 87 of the frozen ones were drunk and they all had dilated pupils.


Thus, if the cause of death is freezing and the person was sober, the pupils will definitely be constricted (100%).



The examination established the absence of alcohol among tourists. And according to a number of other signs and evidence of Yu. Yudin, there is no reason to doubt their sobriety. Then the most likely cause of dilated pupils is the preliminary poisoning of tourists.

There is still no doubt about freezing as the cause of death. This is indicated by the main, "reinforced concrete" signs of freezing observed in the dead:
Cerebral edema 99%
Juiciness, plethora of the soft integument of the skull 91%
Plethora of heart cavities 95%
Lungs on a dark red section 98%
Vishnevsky's spots 95%

But the version with a certain chemical effect, as the cause initiating the tragedy, receives weighty evidence.
The rest of the versions are inconsistent, because. cannot make pupils dilated when they should be narrow .

Why did the medical examiner overlook this?
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny could experience a lack of information and accumulated statistical data on this issue at that time.
Modern "invited" experts - because of the lack of practice in this particular type of expertise.

There may be misconceptions that the pupils of the frozen were dilated, allegedly due to darkness. This is not true.
Pupils cease to react to light at the last stage of freezing, even during life. After death, the width of the pupils is controlled by completely different processes.

Quote
The pupils are constricted, do not react to light.


Quote
The reaction to light is sharply weakened or lost.

The pupils do not care - it is dark or light, the eyelids are open or closed, however, in sober people they will be narrowed in 100% of cases, and in drunken people they will be expanded in 100% of cases.
Lighting conditions do not affect this attribute. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.


Returning to the question of abnormally dilated pupils in those who are frozen sober:


It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
And the pupils are really very dilated:

( In Igor's b link there is a photo of the dilated eye pupil of Dyatolv)

100% the presence of constricted pupils in frozen sober people was confirmed in another work:
"Death from hypothermia" V.P. Desyatov, 1977


Quote
In the corpses of persons who died from cooling while sober, the pupils, according to our observations, turned out to be constricted, while in the case of severe intoxication preceding death, the pupils were dilated in 59%.

In this case, not even all drunks had dilated pupils. Apparently 41% of drunks with narrow pupils were slightly drunk.


But the tourists weren't drunk at all.
First, the medical examiner revived established the absence of alcohol.
Secondly, in the same work by Desyatov, the difference between sober and drunkards is indicated by the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids:


Quote
On non-frozen corpses of persons who died of cold sober, the mucous membrane of the eyelids in all cases was pale pink.

The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny described the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids only in three: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova.

Doroshenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale pink .

Krivonischenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale gray .(in this case, the pale gray color can be caused by the so-called "weathering", because Krivonischenko was lying face up and was almost not covered with snow)

Kolmogorov:
Quote
The mucous membrane of the eyelids is reddish in color.

No blueness.

The reason for the expansion of the pupils could be the wolverine's chemical weapon:
Quote
Sometimes the cause of mydriasis (dilated pupils) can be hidden in acute poisoning of the body and its intoxication. And the development of dilated pupils is largely facilitated by the conditions of a professional activity related to the use of toxic chemicals.
Interesting, thank you.

So in one study, 100% of those intoxicated (with alcohol) had dilated pupils. In the other, only 59%, which is close to no correlation.

Here's another somewhat relevant study saying pupils dilate under induced hypothermia (for surgery purposes): https://ekja.org/journal/view.php?number=2895

Anyway, even if the dilated pupils can only be explained by intoxication, the 2 studies studies are about alcohol intoxication, not wolverine spray. I cannot find much about wolverine spray, but skunk spray is not poisonous, although it will lead to irritated, watery and potentially red eyes. But it's really unlikely that it managed to spray four people directly in the eye.

It also leads to vomiting, yet it seems like there were no signs of that found at the scene or in the bodies...

All in all, it looks like the state of the pupils, either dilated or constricted, is not an indicator of fatal hypothermia: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24557588/

7
Surely they exist. Surely someone will find them.
Нет. По закону копии заключений экспертиз хранятся в экспертном учреждении 25 лет. Так что если копии заключений экспертиз не были уничтожены сразу в 1959 году их в любом случае уничтожили в 1984 году.
8
I have always had a doubt about the disappearing toxicology reports , QUOTE

It seems to me that of all the extensive case research, writings and speculation, the one stone that has never been turned is the missing toxocology reports. Surely they exist. Surely someone will find them. The toxicology information is essential. No complete explanation of the tragedy can happen without it. I hope a Dyatlovite in Russia can get the information. It's at a hospital or lab, not in government archives, I think.
9
Here it is. Igor's work.

Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils. Only in Kolmogorova the state of the pupils is not described. (For obvious reasons, the state of the pupils is not described in the four found in the stream, so we are not talking about them).

10 years ago, questions of statistics of signs of death from hypothermia interested an expert from Khabarovsk Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
http://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1891
He did a great job of studying 100 cases of death from cold and freezing.

Interesting things have come to light. For example, it turned out that the “pose of a chilled person”, which was considered almost mandatory for a frozen person, was met only in 2% of cases.
But the main thing is the pupils. Of the 100 examined, 13 were sober and all had constricted pupils. 87 of the frozen ones were drunk and they all had dilated pupils.


Thus, if the cause of death is freezing and the person was sober, the pupils will definitely be constricted (100%).



The examination established the absence of alcohol among tourists. And according to a number of other signs and evidence of Yu. Yudin, there is no reason to doubt their sobriety. Then the most likely cause of dilated pupils is the preliminary poisoning of tourists.

There is still no doubt about freezing as the cause of death. This is indicated by the main, "reinforced concrete" signs of freezing observed in the dead:
Cerebral edema 99%
Juiciness, plethora of the soft integument of the skull 91%
Plethora of heart cavities 95%
Lungs on a dark red section 98%
Vishnevsky's spots 95%

But the version with a certain chemical effect, as the cause initiating the tragedy, receives weighty evidence.
The rest of the versions are inconsistent, because. cannot make pupils dilated when they should be narrow .

Why did the medical examiner overlook this?
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny could experience a lack of information and accumulated statistical data on this issue at that time.
Modern "invited" experts - because of the lack of practice in this particular type of expertise.

There may be misconceptions that the pupils of the frozen were dilated, allegedly due to darkness. This is not true.
Pupils cease to react to light at the last stage of freezing, even during life. After death, the width of the pupils is controlled by completely different processes.

Quote
The pupils are constricted, do not react to light.


Quote
The reaction to light is sharply weakened or lost.

The pupils do not care - it is dark or light, the eyelids are open or closed, however, in sober people they will be narrowed in 100% of cases, and in drunken people they will be expanded in 100% of cases.
Lighting conditions do not affect this attribute. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.


Returning to the question of abnormally dilated pupils in those who are frozen sober:


It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
And the pupils are really very dilated:

( In Igor's b link there is a photo of the dilated eye pupil of Dyatolv)

100% the presence of constricted pupils in frozen sober people was confirmed in another work:
"Death from hypothermia" V.P. Desyatov, 1977


Quote
In the corpses of persons who died from cooling while sober, the pupils, according to our observations, turned out to be constricted, while in the case of severe intoxication preceding death, the pupils were dilated in 59%.

In this case, not even all drunks had dilated pupils. Apparently 41% of drunks with narrow pupils were slightly drunk.


But the tourists weren't drunk at all.
First, the medical examiner revived established the absence of alcohol.
Secondly, in the same work by Desyatov, the difference between sober and drunkards is indicated by the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids:


Quote
On non-frozen corpses of persons who died of cold sober, the mucous membrane of the eyelids in all cases was pale pink.

The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny described the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids only in three: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova.

Doroshenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale pink .

Krivonischenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale gray .(in this case, the pale gray color can be caused by the so-called "weathering", because Krivonischenko was lying face up and was almost not covered with snow)

Kolmogorov:
Quote
The mucous membrane of the eyelids is reddish in color.

No blueness.

The reason for the expansion of the pupils could be the wolverine's chemical weapon:
Quote
Sometimes the cause of mydriasis (dilated pupils) can be hidden in acute poisoning of the body and its intoxication. And the development of dilated pupils is largely facilitated by the conditions of a professional activity related to the use of toxic chemicals.
10
Hi Manti

Dilated pupils only occur with toxins in the body with hypothermia. Or that's how I understand it to be. If there was no toxins , there is zero dilated pupils. I could  be wrong.

I did copy and paste Igor's clinical evidence for this on another thread. I'm sure Igor b will repost the link.
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