Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Teddy on April 29, 2020, 10:27:35 AM
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Listed in the order they were found. The author is Olesya Molchanova (http://perscitium.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=302#p12092)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Doroshenko.png)
Doroshenko belongings:
- Staple short-sleeved blue checkered shirt
- T-shirt sleeveless knitted greenish color
- Panties and swimming trunks satin blue
- Blue torn knitted underpants
- On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks with tears, woolen white socks burnt
- On the right leg tatter form a cotton sock,and a white woolen sock
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Krivonishenko.png)
Krivonischneko belongings:
- Blue checkered cotton shirt in red-black pattern
- Cotton worn white shirt
- White pants made of Grisbon material torn and charred in places
- Blue satin swimming trunks
- On the left foot, the toe of a cotton sock is torn and in some places charred
- In the outer pocket of his checkered shirt is a ball of copper wire and a silk pink ribbon
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Dyatlov.png)
Dyatlov belongings:
- Fur jacket sleeveless coated with cotton blue material on dark gray fur
- Blue vigone Sweater
- Cotton red checkered shirt in a dark-gray pattern
- Blue knitted vest
- Ski trousers in brown knitted with fleece on an elastic band
- Blue-green cotton sweatpants with elastic
- Black satin briefs
- On the right leg is a woolen white sock, cotton brown sock
- On the left foot, a cotton brown knee sock
- On the left forearm in the lower third is a wristwatch “Zvezda”, time 5:31
In the pocket of the checkered shirt:
- Packing "Streptocid" 4 tablets
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Kolmogorova.png)
Kolmogorova belongings:
- Red wool cap tied on a chin on a bow
- Blue wool knitted hat attached to her hair with a hairpin
- Blue wool sweater, the left cuff is torn off, dressed inside out
- Cotton checkered shirt black-green-red pattern
- Light red vigone sweater with a blue transverse strip, dressed inside out
- Knitted T-shirt with a long sleeve of blue color
- Black satin bra
- Black ski pants from a torn bike
- Blue cotton sports pants with pockets
- Pants with elastic
- Ladies knitted breeches with blue fleece
- Ladies cotton black bodysuit with elastic
- Swimming trunks cotton black
- Woolen brown socks with fur insoles, blue and brown vigone socks
Under the checkered shirt:
- Military mask
In trousers:
- Comb with 2 broken teeth
- Boot lace black
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Slobodin.png)
Slobodin belongings:
- Black cotton sweater
- Checkered shirt black-red pattern
- Knitted shirt patched
- Blue long-sleeved jersey
- Dark ski pants
- Blue satin sweatpants
- Warm light gray pants with fleece, a pair of shirts
- Blue Satin Briefs
- 2 felt insoles
- On the right leg, black felt boot, cotton sock, gray vigone socks, cotton sock, vigone brown sock
- On the left leg the same, but without felt boots
- On the left hand there is a watch “Zvezda”, time 8:45
In the pocket of a cowboy found:
- Passport
- 310 rubles
- Ink fountain pen
In trouser pockets:
- Box of matches with 43 match sticks
- Penknife on a long rope
- Comb in a case
- Two ropes
- Pencil
- Cotton sock
In the pocket of satin trousers:
- Letter from the trade union committee dated January 20, 1959
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Dubinina.png)
Dubinina belongings:
- Knitted under helmet cap
- Woolen taupe sweater well-worn
- Beige wool sweater
- Checkered colored shirt
- Yellow short-sleeved T-shirt
- White cotton bra
- Torn cotton pants are dark with a belt on an elastic band, trousers are very torn and in some places burned
- Black cotton tights torn in the crotch, in the belt area with an elastic
- Legs light brown cotton stockings
- Gray ladies' belt with garterbands
- Men's satin briefs
- The left leg - the partly lower leg and foot area is wrapped in a gray woolen burnt flap from a sweater with a sleeve, a torn woolen brown sock.
- On both legs cotton blue torn socks, gray wool socks
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov.png)
Kolevatov belongings:
- Ski jacket from black boomazei with a torn zipper, some places burnt
- Brown fleece knitted sweater
- Gray worn sweater
- Cotton checkered shirt in blue-red-black pattern
- Wearable chemise with velvet, pale gray, worn
- Canvas khaki jumpsuit with elasticated straps
- Trousers with metal buckles with tears
- Ski trousers from a blue bike with side buckles
- Underpants pale gray color a pair of chemise
- Blue satin briefs
- Woolen dirty socks, white, home knitted with areas of burning
- On the right leg brown cotton socks
- On the left leg 3 brown cotton socks, under them on the ankle joint a gauze bandage
In the pockets of a checkered shirt:
- Safety pin fastening pocket
- The key from a door lock
- A piece of brown paper
- Packaging from the Codeine with Soda
In trouser pockets:
- Soaked box of matches
- Handkerchief
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Thibeaux-Brignolle.png)
Thibeaux-Brignolle belongings:
- A woolen knitted green sports cap with three round holes is dressed and tightly tied on the head
- Khaki canvas tarpaulin fur hat with drawstring
- Canvas green fur jacket on a sheepskin, zipper, with two patched pockets
- Worn sweater, dressed inside out
- Blue well-worn knitted shirt that has damage to the right and bottom tears of an oval shape
- Cloth padded blue trousers, leather belt with a metal white buckle
- Almost new gray felt boots, white woolen knitted socks, brown woolen sock are crumpled on the feet and are in felt boots according to the insole
- Cotton blue sports pants
- Black satin briefs
There are two watches on his left hand:
- "Sportivnye" (Krivonischenko's), time 8:14:24
- "Pobeda", time 8:39
In a jacket:
- Woolen gloves
- Metal coins
- Two folded pieces of paper
- Hairbrush
In trousers:
- White button
- Metal chain from the wall clock
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Zolotaryov.png)
Zolotaryov belongings:
- Leather hat with ear flaps, black trimmed with black fur
- Sports woolen knitted hat of red color with three light stripes
- Brown and blue checkered woolen scarf with open pin, worn scarf
- Tourist mask made of bikes and green tarpaulin on the straps
- Fur vest on a black sheepskin, well-worn
- Brown sport jacket with buttons
- Black cotton sweater, slightly worn
- Sports cotton blue sleeved T-shirt
- Cotton jersey cherry-colored T-shirt
- Khaki canvas jumpsuit pants with two patch pockets
- Ripped button down blue ski pants with buttons
- The same pants with elastic bands
- Black quilted burqa
- Brown wool socks on both legs, on the left cotton sock, darned
- Gray cotton swimming trunks dressed inside out
- Blue satin briefs
In trouser pockets:
- Onion
- Coins
- Hairbrush
- Ball of thread
- Folded newspaper
- Pieces of newspaper
Compass on his left hand (worn like a wristwatch)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-group-socks.jpg)
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Very interesting, and useful.
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How does blondie know which injuries are pre / post mortem or immediately before death?
Psychic powers?
And why are Lyudmila and Semyon's chest fractures pre not immediately before death?
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Nigel. Follow the link, 'Blondie', there is more material, charts and tables, that give information about injuries and healing times.
I would imagine these are her source.
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Nigel. Follow the link, 'Blondie', there is more material, charts and tables, that give information about injuries and healing times.
I would imagine these are her source.
****'s translation is "left cuff interrupted". I have three independent translations of the autopsy, all of them using torn/interrupted, none of them use missing.
According to the pathologist Lyudmila died within minutes of the fractures.
I would expect wound behaviour to vary considerably depending on the cause. Abrasion, impulse, burn (heat/chemical) etc etc and we don't know the cause....
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If you see funny stuff like "left cuff interrupted" in my translations i.e. on dyatlovpass.com or my posts here could you please point it to me in a PM. I will fix it immaterially. I could use all the help you can give me.
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If you see funny stuff like "left cuff interrupted" in my translations i.e. on dyatlovpass.com or my posts here could you please point it to me in a PM. I will fix it immaterially. I could use all the help you can give me.
I have some but will pm you as i remember them.
"****" kewl1
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The site mentions that more injuries were found on Simon when he was exhumed later. Why was he exhumed?
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The site mentions that more injuries were found on Simon when he was exhumed later. Why was he exhumed?
https://dyatlovpass.com/zolotaryov-exhumation-3?rbid=18461
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Awesome post! Easy to get caught up in the whole 'none of them were dressed properly' thing and forget that most of them were actually pretty well dressed - some of them pretty much completely equipped. But not all. The one boot on Rustem, the two watches on Nicholas - must be something in those but...
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I know it seems like a lot of clothing, but believe me - this is what you wear inside the tent. Nobody was dressed sufficiently to go outside the tent. Two of them were dressed good enough to pee, but not more than 20m away from the tent. They can't walk, run or abandon the tent in such state of undressing. This part is misleading albeit true. Most of the clothes were old and worn out. In general the materials were such that you need to have multiple layers, not like nowadays. The affair of dressing for the mountains back then was to take as many city clothes you can get your hands on, and wear them all together.
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Thanks as always Teddy for the hard work. It seems strange that no scratches and abrasions were found on the four bodies found in the ravine. Either they never had any or they disappeared as their skin decomposed. The extent of injuries on each of them is frightening. I only hope that none of them suffered for any amount of time.
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If one of the hikers had peed outside of the tent, wouldn't it have been covered by snow after several weeks? The bodies were almost completely covered.
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Thank you for the e-mail address Nigel. I was also wondering if anyone has questioned why Zina's top 2 pairs of pants were undone? Was someone searching for something on only her or maybe wanting to use her clothes for warmth (like George and Yuri)?
More questions. What happened to the part of George's pants that were cut off? If there were burns on the pants that Lyuda was wearing, do they line up with George's burns on his legs? There has been a question about the knife used on the cedar tree. There was a knife mentioned among the kitchen utensils that they took with them and I do not remember seeing it mentioned on the list of things taken from the tent. My kitchen knives can be very sharp so maybe that is the knife they used not only on
the tree but also on George's pants and maybe even the tent. One more thing. In a book I have by Launton Anderson, the obituaries of Zina and Igor mention alcohol being found in their systems. If this is so, why does everyone say"not"?
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If one of the hikers had peed outside of the tent, wouldn't it have been covered by snow after several weeks? The bodies were almost completely covered.
I would think so!
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Thank you for the e-mail address Nigel. I was also wondering if anyone has questioned why Zina's top 2 pairs of pants were undone? My theory is that she was dressed for bed and left under layers unbuttoned as it was more comfortable. If she died on the descent she wouldn't have had to adjust the layers. Was someone searching for something on only her or maybe wanting to use her clothes for warmth (like George and Yuri)?
More questions. What happened to the part of George's pants that were cut off? If there were burns on the pants that Lyuda was wearing, do they line up with George's burns on his legs? I think the clothing has been lost. There has been a question about the knife used on the cedar tree. There was a knife mentioned among the kitchen utensils that they took with them and I do not remember seeing it mentioned on the list of things taken from the tent. My kitchen knives can be very sharp so maybe that is the knife they used not only on
the tree but also on George's pants and maybe even the tent. They had several knives, from memory three. One more thing. In a book I have by Launton Anderson, the obituaries of Zina and Igor mention alcohol being found in their systems. If this is so, why does everyone say"not"? I haven't heard of this before. Kerosene contains alcohol so this would support the missile theory.
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Why does everyone assume that Simon and Nickolas were the best dressed when they were apparently wearing clothes taken off Lyuda (hat and coat),Yuri and George.It appears that Lyuda,Yuri, George and Zina may have been the best dressed upon leaving the tent.
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This is such a helpful visualisation. And thanks for your commentary, Teddy. Pardon my ignorance, but what else would the hikers usually have had on to go outside? Ski pants such as Zoltaryov and Kolevatov were wearing and a coat or two? In addition to boots, hats and gloves.
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I thought of a few more questions. Why is Lyuda wearing torn and burned pants when there were two pair that did not seem to have anything wrong with them except the one pair that was cut? Also why did not Igor or Rustem use the sweaters? Were they already dead (or had left cedar) by the time that George and Yuri were stripped? Were one of the pairs of pants at the tree or
den Lyuda's? After reading about this incident, I thought it would be easier to start trying to figure out some of the small stuff first, then work my way up. I have often wondered, if you were to feed the facts (and only the known facts) into a computer, what kind of solution it would come up with?
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Why does everyone assume that Simon and Nickolas were the best dressed when they were apparently wearing clothes taken off Lyuda (hat and coat),Yuri and George.It appears that Lyuda,Yuri, George and Zina may have been the best dressed upon leaving the tent.
It's incorrect that semyon was wearing two hats. None of the ravine 4 were found wearing hats. See the photos. Nicolai was wearing two watches because he was on watch so it's plausible that he was fully dressed.
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Useful summary of injuries, clothing and items.
Does anyone have any information/idea on the length of the rib injuries. Top to bottom on each side of Lyuda and the one side on Semyon? There might be something useful in that.
Regards
Star man
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****'s translation is "left cuff interrupted". I have three independent translations of the autopsy, all of them using torn/interrupted, none of them use missing.
According to the pathologist Lyudmila died within minutes of the fractures.
I would expect wound behaviour to vary considerably depending on the cause. Abrasion, impulse, burn (heat/chemical) etc etc and we don't know the cause....
In the case file (sheet 382 & 383) the testimony of forensic expert Vozrozhdenny Boris Alekseevich states that Lyudmila died within 10-20 minutes of being injured. He also states that Zolotaryov could have lived longer and Thibeaux-Brignolle could have lived as long as 2-3 hours after his injury. This, along with the fact that none of the four in the ravine died of asphyxiation, almost certainly rules out their injuries being cause by collapsing snow.
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****'s translation is "left cuff interrupted". I have three independent translations of the autopsy, all of them using torn/interrupted, none of them use missing.
According to the pathologist Lyudmila died within minutes of the fractures.
I would expect wound behaviour to vary considerably depending on the cause. Abrasion, impulse, burn (heat/chemical) etc etc and we don't know the cause....
In the case file (sheet 382 & 383) the testimony of forensic expert Vozrozhdenny Boris Alekseevich states that Lyudmila died within 10-20 minutes of being injured. He also states that Zolotaryov could have lived longer and Thibeaux-Brignolle could have lived as long as 2-3 hours after his injury. This, along with the fact that none of the four in the ravine died of asphyxiation, almost certainly rules out their injuries being cause by collapsing snow.
Hi there. You make a good point about time to live versus no sign of asphyxiation.
Some thoughts.- You can breathe under the snow for minutes, maybe 20.
- The den would have had an entrance and it is plausible that this provided a pathway for some air to reach them. Or there was an air pocket. The crushing force only needs to be 30cm wide. The den collapsing could have pushed the walls out creating a space.
- If they were crushed by a tracked vehicle then it is a sensible proposition that it had some means of hiding it's tracks as none were observed. Perhaps this device freed up the snow after the main vehicle had passed.
- The autopsies could be incorrect or decomposition/water ingress interfered with the findings. Many posters complain about the brevity of the autopsy reports, particularly lack of detail about Lyudmila's tongue.
Needless to say, i don't accept the question rules out the theory. But it's a good question.
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Nigel, regarding Simon wearing two hats; he was. The autopsy mentioned a black one (I believed belonged to Yuri) and a knit one. Nicholas was also wearing two hats and Lyuda was wearing one( see Teddy's information above).
Zina's top two pair of pants were undone. She would not have been able to walk around like that. She would have been tripping over them constantly.
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Nigel, regarding Simon wearing two hats; he was. As you say the autopsy mentions two hats. But the photos of the ravine four when found show no one was wearing a hat. Hence it is probable that they were collected and placed with the bodies for transport with no knowledge of who last wore what. Then the pathologist records the clothing associated with the body and everyone says "Semyon had two hats!".
Zina's top two pair of pants were undone. She would not have been able to walk around like that. She would have been tripping over them constantly.You or i could run with our pants undone if our lives depended on it. Just one hand gripping the top parts would do it. Two hands would be easy. I like the theory that she expired during the descent and didn't have time to adjust her clothing.
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Just experimenting to see if my computer will finally post.
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****'s translation is "left cuff interrupted". I have three independent translations of the autopsy, all of them using torn/interrupted, none of them use missing.
According to the pathologist Lyudmila died within minutes of the fractures.
I would expect wound behaviour to vary considerably depending on the cause. Abrasion, impulse, burn (heat/chemical) etc etc and we don't know the cause....
In the case file (sheet 382 & 383) the testimony of forensic expert Vozrozhdenny Boris Alekseevich states that Lyudmila died within 10-20 minutes of being injured. He also states that Zolotaryov could have lived longer and Thibeaux-Brignolle could have lived as long as 2-3 hours after his injury. This, along with the fact that none of the four in the ravine died of asphyxiation, almost certainly rules out their injuries being cause by collapsing snow.
Hi there. You make a good point about time to live versus no sign of asphyxiation.
Some thoughts.- You can breathe under the snow for minutes, maybe 20.
- The den would have had an entrance and it is plausible that this provided a pathway for some air to reach them. Or there was an air pocket. The crushing force only needs to be 30cm wide. The den collapsing could have pushed the walls out creating a space.
- If they were crushed by a tracked vehicle then it is a sensible proposition that it had some means of hiding it's tracks as none were observed. Perhaps this device freed up the snow after the main vehicle had passed.
- The autopsies could be incorrect or decomposition/water ingress interfered with the findings. Many posters complain about the brevity of the autopsy reports, particularly lack of detail about Lyudmila's tongue.
Needless to say, i don't accept the question rules out the theory. But it's a good question.
Good point - you could be right about surviving under snow for an extended period of time. But, I just can't see injuries of that magnitude occurring from a snow cave collapse. If it had been an enormous slab a snow that fell from a decent height, then yes. But snow shelters don't collapse as such. They tend to collapse in chunks and, while chunks of snow can weigh plenty, I doubt that the snow would have fallen from anything higher than a half meter. I did a fair amount of research regarding fatalities as a result of snow cave collapse and in every incident the fatality was cause by asphyxiation. Even with avalanches, 80% of the time the cause of death is asphyxiation.
Both Vozrozhdenny and the forensic pathologist that did the recent examination of Zolotaryov concluded that the force was instant (like a blast wave) and not a slow crushing type of force. I don't know if this rules out a track vehicle but, I think it could put it lower on the list of possibilities.
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Good point - you could be right about surviving under snow for an extended period of time. But, I just can't see injuries of that magnitude occurring from a snow cave collapse. If it had been an enormous slab a snow that fell from a decent height, then yes. But snow shelters don't collapse as such. They tend to collapse in chunks and, while chunks of snow can weigh plenty, I doubt that the snow would have fallen from anything higher than a half meter. I did a fair amount of research regarding fatalities as a result of snow cave collapse and in every incident the fatality was cause by asphyxiation. Even with avalanches, 80% of the time the cause of death is asphyxiation.
Both Vozrozhdenny and the forensic pathologist that did the recent examination of Zolotaryov concluded that the force was instant (like a blast wave) and not a slow crushing type of force. I don't know if this rules out a track vehicle but, I think it could put it lower on the list of possibilities.
As the roof collapsed a tracked vehicle would drop into a small crater "punching" anything underneath, have you seen this thread? - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.90
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Something that has been bothering me for awhile now was Lyuda's lack of pants. The only pants she had on were George's. There was one pair of pants at the tent and two at the den. All the other pants were being worn. So why was the only pair of pants she had on were George's? She would have had on at least one pair of the pants found at the den. So why didn't she? That means she either gave up her one or two pair of pants willingly or was forced to. And then, because she didn't have any pants, she put on George's. Maybe that is why Zina's pants were undone also.
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There were 21 pairs of pants amongst the nine hikers. That is two to three pairs per person. There is no scenario that I can think of that she would not have had on at least one of the pair. Why would she take off one or two pair of perfectly good pants just to replace them with George's tattered ones? If she died and then they removed them, why would they then take off George's pants and put them on Lyuda?
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My computer has not been working very well lately so I have a lot I need to hurry up and get off my chest before it quits again.
NEXT! George and Yuri had frost bite on, not only their hands and feet but also their arms and legs according to their autopsies. If they were stripped of their clothes after death, could they still get frost bite? Can dead people get frostbite (This is a question because I do not know.)? If Lyuda had 0 to 1 pair of pants on also, wouldn't she have gotten frostbite too?
And how about the overalls? They had no burns or tears, so they were probably removed before death.
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This is a really excellent graphic. One of the challenges with DPI is the 'sprawl' of information. This site does a great job of collecting all the sources of information, but there is still a huge amount to sort thru. I think the creation of things like this to pull together the facts into easily digestible materials will be critical is solving the mystery. I had previously spent an entire day pulling the info together about the clothes and injuries. Now it is easily available for everyone! My goal was to create something similar, but I could never produce a decent result. Great Job!
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Still think this section is the most comprehensive - one thought; just noticed the quantity of the contents of Rustem's pockets. It wouldn't make for a comfy night with all that in your pockets? Also, the significance of the first deaths and subsequent removal of clothes. The contents of his pockets could have been useful to those that outlived him, but no scavenging took place. Can we draw any conclusions from that?
PS - did they have a shortage of gloves in 1950's Russia? Not a single mitten even on the well dressed inventories being worn, and only one pair in someone's pockets. Can't see any listed in the tent but they must be somewhere.
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Still think this section is the most comprehensive - one thought; just noticed the quantity of the contents of Rustem's pockets. It wouldn't make for a comfy night with all that in your pockets? Also, the significance of the first deaths and subsequent removal of clothes. The contents of his pockets could have been useful to those that outlived him, but no scavenging took place. Can we draw any conclusions from that?
PS - did they have a shortage of gloves in 1950's Russia? Not a single mitten even on the well dressed inventories being worn, and only one pair in someone's pockets. Can't see any listed in the tent but they must be somewhere.
Rustem had one valenki on, one off so he could have just been outside perhaps to urinate.
The gloves are all listed here - https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-233-257?rbid=17743
search for gloves or mittens.
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Would the normal routine be to dry them out or continue to wear them of an evening.
With Rustem's pocket contents, alot of the items may have been a help, however small. It just seemed alot compared to the inventory of the others.
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Would the normal routine be to dry them out or continue to wear them of an evening.
With Rustem's pocket contents, alot of the items may have been a help, however small. It just seemed alot compared to the inventory of the others.
Everything gives the impression of it being early evening to me, gloves aren't worn for finger dexterity to perform tasks. They'd probably wear them whilst sleeping.
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Teddy,
Thank you so much for the visual diagrams of the Dyatllov Pass Tourists, I believe it's the first time I saw this, this evening. As you know I have always been focused on Semyon Zolotaryov for several reasons but something was very odd to me reading your extensive post tonight and this is it. Out of all the Dyatlov Pass Tourists none of them said to family and friends prior to the trip that they would be famous after the trip, except Semyon. Could this be a love affair of sorts but the "love" interest isn't anywhere on the mountain and wasn't "truthful", but somewhere else and may be have instigated or be an incentive for what happened on the mountain?
In trouser pockets:
- Onion
- Coins
- Hairbrush
- Ball of thread
- Folded newspaper
- Pieces of newspaper
When I read that Semyon had an onion in his pocket I thought he must have grabbed the onion from the tent just prior to slashing and dashing but then I thought to myself that after living in Alaska for all those years that I would have grabbed boots or a Jacket and in that order but an onion? An onion? And then it hit me hard, Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamozov and the HUGE symbolism of the "Onion" and it's connection to wickedness and then redemption:
The Onion Symbol Analysis
The Envelope and the Three Thousand Roubles
The onion is a symbol of redemption that helps both Grushenka and Alexei Fyodorovich to recognize the complexity of human character, which is neither strictly good nor entirely evil. Grushenka tells Alexei the parable of the onion, in which a wicked woman ruins her chance of being saved from hell by failing to remember an instance in which she unselfishly gave a beggar woman an onion. The woman’s guardian angel makes a wager with God: if the angel can take “that same onion” and pull the woman out of the lake of fire, she can go to heaven; but, if it breaks, she will remain in hell. The angel holds the onion out to the woman and beckons her to pull. She takes hold of it and nearly pulls herself out. However, when other sinners hold on to her, hoping to be pulled up with her, she kicks them away and tries to keep the onion for herself. With this, the onion breaks, and she falls back into the lake of fire.
Grushenka tells the tale of the onion to exemplify her own wickedness, though it ends up becoming an indication of her decency. She confesses that she promised Mikhail Osipovich Rakitin twenty-five roubles in exchange for bringing Alexei Fyodorovich to her residence, where she hoped to seduce and corrupt the young monk, in revenge for what she perceived as his self-righteous judgment of her. Alexei, in turn, allowed Rakitin to take him to Grushenka’s to be corrupted, due to his recent disillusionment over failing to witness a miracle after Zosima, the Elder’s death. After Grushenka learns about the elder’s death, she has a change of heart, prompted by her empathy for Alexei’s loss. In turn, Alexei is pleasantly surprised by her empathy and feels that the woman whom he had once considered “a wicked soul” is now “a loving soul” and “a true sister.” Grushenka’s empathy was “the onion” that Alexei needed in order to nourish his weak faith in the world and to restore the strength of his belief in goodness. Similarly, Alexei’s faith in Grushenka’s good nature is “the onion” that she needed in order to rescue her from her belief that she could never overcome her wickedness. With these simple acts of empathy, Alexei and Grushenka save each other from the hell of hopelessness and illustrate the complexity of human nature.
The Onion Quotes in The Brothers Karamazov
The The Brothers Karamazov quotes below all refer to the symbol of The Onion. For each quote, you can also see the other characters and themes related to it (each theme is indicated by its own dot and icon, like this one: Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon ). Note: all page numbers and citation info for the quotes below refer to the Farrar, Straus and Giroux edition of The Brothers Karamazov published in 1990.
Part 2: Book 5, Chapter 4 Quotes
“In my opinion, Christ’s love for people is in its kind a miracle impossible on earth. True, he was God. But we are not gods. Let’s say that I, for example, am capable of profound suffering, but another man will never be able to know the degree of my suffering, because he is another and not me, and besides, a man is rarely willing to acknowledge someone else as a sufferer […] And why won’t he acknowledge it, do you think? Because I, for example, have a bad smell, or a foolish face, or once stepped on his foot […] Beggars, especially noble beggars, should never show themselves in the street; they should ask for alms through the newspapers. It’s still possible to love one’s neighbor abstractly, and even occasionally from a distance, but hardly ever up close.”
Related Characters: Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov (speaker), Alexei “Alyosha” Fyodorovich Karamazov
Related Symbols: The Onion
Related Themes: Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon Morality and Modernization Theme Icon Suffering Theme Icon
Page Number and Citation: 237 Cite this Quote
The onion has such strong symbolism in Dostoevsky's book The Brothers Karamozov which I have read and learned from, I was just wondering if there could be a connection and if that onion could have been placed in Semyon's pocket post-mortem?
For any Dostoevky Fans:
https://youtu.be/aswdMhHhczM
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Teddy,
Thank you so much for the visual diagrams of the Dyatllov Pass Tourists, I believe it's the first time I saw this, this evening. As you know I have always been focused on Semyon Zolotaryov for several reasons but something was very odd to me reading your extensive post tonight and this is it. Out of all the Dyatlov Pass Tourists none of them said to family and friends prior to the trip that they would be famous after the trip, except Semyon. Could this be a love affair of sorts but the "love" interest isn't anywhere on the mountain and wasn't "truthful", but somewhere else and may be have instigated or be an incentive for what happened on the mountain?
In trouser pockets:
- Onion
- Coins
- Hairbrush
- Ball of thread
- Folded newspaper
- Pieces of newspaper
When I read that Semyon had an onion in his pocket I thought he must have grabbed the onion from the tent just prior to slashing and dashing but then I thought to myself that after living in Alaska for all those years that I would have grabbed boots or a Jacket and in that order but an onion? An onion? And then it hit me hard, Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamozov and the HUGE symbolism of the "Onion" and it's connection to wickedness and then redemption:
The Onion Symbol Analysis
The Envelope and the Three Thousand Roubles
The onion is a symbol of redemption that helps both Grushenka and Alexei Fyodorovich to recognize the complexity of human character, which is neither strictly good nor entirely evil. Grushenka tells Alexei the parable of the onion, in which a wicked woman ruins her chance of being saved from hell by failing to remember an instance in which she unselfishly gave a beggar woman an onion. The woman’s guardian angel makes a wager with God: if the angel can take “that same onion” and pull the woman out of the lake of fire, she can go to heaven; but, if it breaks, she will remain in hell. The angel holds the onion out to the woman and beckons her to pull. She takes hold of it and nearly pulls herself out. However, when other sinners hold on to her, hoping to be pulled up with her, she kicks them away and tries to keep the onion for herself. With this, the onion breaks, and she falls back into the lake of fire.
Grushenka tells the tale of the onion to exemplify her own wickedness, though it ends up becoming an indication of her decency. She confesses that she promised Mikhail Osipovich Rakitin twenty-five roubles in exchange for bringing Alexei Fyodorovich to her residence, where she hoped to seduce and corrupt the young monk, in revenge for what she perceived as his self-righteous judgment of her. Alexei, in turn, allowed Rakitin to take him to Grushenka’s to be corrupted, due to his recent disillusionment over failing to witness a miracle after Zosima, the Elder’s death. After Grushenka learns about the elder’s death, she has a change of heart, prompted by her empathy for Alexei’s loss. In turn, Alexei is pleasantly surprised by her empathy and feels that the woman whom he had once considered “a wicked soul” is now “a loving soul” and “a true sister.” Grushenka’s empathy was “the onion” that Alexei needed in order to nourish his weak faith in the world and to restore the strength of his belief in goodness. Similarly, Alexei’s faith in Grushenka’s good nature is “the onion” that she needed in order to rescue her from her belief that she could never overcome her wickedness. With these simple acts of empathy, Alexei and Grushenka save each other from the hell of hopelessness and illustrate the complexity of human nature.
The Onion Quotes in The Brothers Karamazov
The The Brothers Karamazov quotes below all refer to the symbol of The Onion. For each quote, you can also see the other characters and themes related to it (each theme is indicated by its own dot and icon, like this one: Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon ). Note: all page numbers and citation info for the quotes below refer to the Farrar, Straus and Giroux edition of The Brothers Karamazov published in 1990.
Part 2: Book 5, Chapter 4 Quotes
“In my opinion, Christ’s love for people is in its kind a miracle impossible on earth. True, he was God. But we are not gods. Let’s say that I, for example, am capable of profound suffering, but another man will never be able to know the degree of my suffering, because he is another and not me, and besides, a man is rarely willing to acknowledge someone else as a sufferer […] And why won’t he acknowledge it, do you think? Because I, for example, have a bad smell, or a foolish face, or once stepped on his foot […] Beggars, especially noble beggars, should never show themselves in the street; they should ask for alms through the newspapers. It’s still possible to love one’s neighbor abstractly, and even occasionally from a distance, but hardly ever up close.”
Related Characters: Ivan Fyodorovich Karamazov (speaker), Alexei “Alyosha” Fyodorovich Karamazov
Related Symbols: The Onion
Related Themes: Faith vs. Reason Theme Icon Morality and Modernization Theme Icon Suffering Theme Icon
Page Number and Citation: 237 Cite this Quote
The onion has such strong symbolism in Dostoevsky's book The Brothers Karamozov which I have read and learned from, I was just wondering if there could be a connection and if that onion could have been placed in Semyon's pocket post-mortem?
For any Dostoevky Fans:
https://youtu.be/aswdMhHhczM
Very interesting. Now you have me thinking about an Onion. At first such a mention of an Onion might pass as being fanciful but in view of Mans liking for Symbols maybe a bit of Investigation is needed here. I wonder if there was much if any research before the Expedition took place, into the Culture and Legends of the area that they were travelling to ! ? Were any of them if not all of them aware of any Evil that Legend may have for the area that they were going to. They must all have known about the Legend of the Snowman, or Menk as it is known by the Mansi Tribes. Some people carry Symbols as a protection against Evil Forces.
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The folklore around the golden idol is worth a read, if you have some spare time. It's rumoured to be hidden somewhere along the River Ob and closely guarded by the Mansi. Is it possible Semyon had heard stories of this 'treasure' and maybe thought he had a good chance of finding it - hence his claim to fame? Allegedly, the only way to find it, is to follow the Mansi signs carved in the trees, which they did appear to be doing.
I did think the onion was a bit strange and read that WW2 solders carried onions with them to use as an anti-septic - not sure if this would be the case here though? When you think about it, there's lots of little things that are still unsolved/explained. I'm looking forward to finding out more in Teddy's book thumb1
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The folklore around the golden idol is worth a read, if you have some spare time. It's rumoured to be hidden somewhere along the River Ob and closely guarded by the Mansi. Is it possible Semyon had heard stories of this 'treasure' and maybe thought he had a good chance of finding it - hence his claim to fame? Allegedly, the only way to find it, is to follow the Mansi signs carved in the trees, which they did appear to be doing.
I did think the onion was a bit strange and read that WW2 solders carried onions with them to use as an anti-septic - not sure if this would be the case here though? When you think about it, there's lots of little things that are still unsolved/explained. I'm looking forward to finding out more in Teddy's book thumb1
I like the anti septic idea.https://www.dorwest.com/blog/garlic-its-history-usage-and-queries-over-toxicity/Garlic was also famously used in the treatment of German soldiers during World War I, and although penicillin was already in use by the second World War, the Russian Red Army continued using garlic and it was apparently renamed there as Russian penicillin or just natural antibiotic.
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The folklore around the golden idol is worth a read, if you have some spare time. It's rumoured to be hidden somewhere along the River Ob and closely guarded by the Mansi. Is it possible Semyon had heard stories of this 'treasure' and maybe thought he had a good chance of finding it - hence his claim to fame? Allegedly, the only way to find it, is to follow the Mansi signs carved in the trees, which they did appear to be doing.
I did think the onion was a bit strange and read that WW2 solders carried onions with them to use as an anti-septic - not sure if this would be the case here though? When you think about it, there's lots of little things that are still unsolved/explained. I'm looking forward to finding out more in Teddy's book thumb1
Well I have done a bit of serious Treasure Hunting myself in the past and I prefered nice weather conditions. Not temperatures of around minus 20, and deep snow.
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Thanks Nigel - that's very interesting re the garlic.
i agree Sarapuk that it would be easier to go treasure hunting in better weather conditions, but from what I've read so far, he was there for the hiking certification or maybe this was a good cover story - who knows? Now, I'm wondering about your treasure hunting!
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Thanks Nigel - that's very interesting re the garlic.
i agree Sarapuk that it would be easier to go treasure hunting in better weather conditions, but from what I've read so far, he was there for the hiking certification or maybe this was a good cover story - who knows? Now, I'm wondering about your treasure hunting!
You made me laff, which I suppose is ok in moderation on this Forum. I searched for Pirate Treasure in Cornwall, England. I had special permission. I used very advanced Detecting equipment. I had to abandon the Search due to technical difficulties. But I have not give up. Although its been many years now.
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That is awesome, sarapuk. I am deeply jealous.
One of my favorite book was "Under the Black Flag" did you get to see the exhibit? Two museum curators put it on only thinking it would be open for 2 weeks, I read, but there was such a huge, unexpected outpouring that it stayed open for 2 months. I heard even Prince Charles parouzed the exhibit in person. I have a good friend who is a retired high school principal, he shocked me on day, saying if he could do it all over again he would rather have been a pirate. His statement came to of nowhere and it is a moment will remember forever. LOL.
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Garlic was also famously used in the treatment of German soldiers during World War I, and although penicillin was already in use by the second World War, the Russian Red Army continued using garlic and it was apparently renamed there as Russian penicillin or just natural antibiotic.
Radiogram sent towards the end of the initial search:
Atmanaki, their addresses are from Ivanov. 3 graduate student of the Korolev left the institute without registration I ask to call 4 need to send garlic 5 tell Chernichev's relatives that everyone is healthy 6 it is necessary to prepare for the replacement of the remaining students with army men
Maslennikov
(I underlined the garlic part)
ETA: Also, Dyatlov had garlic cloves in the pocket of the clothes he was wearing. Dubinina had, in the pocket of her clothes, "a little powder and onion."
I had about decided that several of them were helping prepare dinner when the disaster happened, then I read the radiogram and thought, "WHAT are they ALL cooking out there in the middle of nowhere?!" Natural antiseptic makes a lot more sense, lol.
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That is awesome, sarapuk. I am deeply jealous.
One of my favorite book was "Under the Black Flag" did you get to see the exhibit? Two museum curators put it on only thinking it would be open for 2 weeks, I read, but there was such a huge, unexpected outpouring that it stayed open for 2 months. I heard even Prince Charles parouzed the exhibit in person. I have a good friend who is a retired high school principal, he shocked me on day, saying if he could do it all over again he would rather have been a pirate. His statement came to of nowhere and it is a moment will remember forever. LOL.
I had hundreds of books on Piracy etc but when I moved to a smaller place I had to get rid of them. I had that book of course. I dont remember an exhibition though. I know that Prince Charles was keen on Diving. I cant say too much about the Treasure Hunt, for obvious reasons. It has helped me to be a keen Investigator though.
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Thank you for telling us about your treasure hunting. It sounds like a real adventure. I didn't mean to detract from the seriousness of all this. I know how dedicated you all are to finding the answers and truth of what happened. I love reading everyone's posts and admire all the thought and research that goes into them.
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Thank you for telling us about your treasure hunting. It sounds like a real adventure. I didn't mean to detract from the seriousness of all this. I know how dedicated you all are to finding the answers and truth of what happened. I love reading everyone's posts and admire all the thought and research that goes into them.
And thank you for that. This Mystery continues into 2021.
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Thank you, sarapuk.
I too really like hearing others opinions and life experiences. I truly believe that one day the Dyatlov Pass hikers mystery will be solved. Waiting for Teddy’s book with great anticipation.