Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dona on April 16, 2021, 06:47:58 PM
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Why move the bodies.. Why move Yuri and Georgy, what, 3 feet??
Seems like a military thing to do..Doesnt it?
Were attackers military or Simon was alive and well??
They would have been easy to find with both at the fire. Its not like they were scattered. And they are lined up i the ravine too.. Hmmm
Just seems like a military thing to do.. Any ex military here that can answer that?
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So what is used to determine the original position of the bodies ?
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What do you mean?? I dont think Yuri and Georgy put themselves over there.. side by side.. And why would 4 people lie down in a ravine? But its not a matter of where they were, but where they are..
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Yes, the military does do that.. Is that relevant here.. possibly.. I mean, I dont think they teach you to line up the bodies in hikers school.. if there is even such a thing..
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I dont think they died on the slope.. The others would have had to carry them, drag them, all the way to the tree line.. They would have been dead by then.Besides, I dont think Luda or Simon could have endured that. So, why take them to the ravine, another 100+ feet further, at that point? They would have lined them up right there, like Yuri and Georgy.. .
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They broke off a lot of tree branches and likely sat or stood on them while warming themselves by the fire (due to heat loss if you stand or sit on the snow directly). After the two Yuris died, they took most of their clothes, and may have moved them to a location that was better for that purpose. They might also want to get near the fire, so had to move the Yuris out of the way, and also they might have wanted to take the branches the Yuris were lying on to use for the "den" or some other purpose (such as to leave a trail for Zina, Igor, and Slobodin to follow). Another possibility is that they moved them to a spot that would allow the bodies to be used as a marker of some type (such as nearer to the "den"). You are again getting distracted by a detail that will never be known for sure and likely has an explanation that is consistent with the sole "big picture" explanation that makes sense.
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Might have,, could have, maybe.. Till you have the RAV 4 lined up too.. Seems regimental to me..
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And it isnt distraction.. The smallest of details matter.. Read the scene
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the sole "big picture" explanation that makes sense.
So what is this big picture explanation? That they left the tent as it became clear it's too cold / unsuitable due to whatever reason (wind, torn tent, blizzard etc.), and tried to survive the night near a campfire but failed?
I think even the "big picture" will depend on what evidence you include and exclude. One could go solely by the official case file and conclude that the authorities opened a criminal case and appointed an investigator from the police before there was any hint, according to the case files, of any crime having occurred, before the ravine 4 were found...
Is it standard procedure to involve the police when hikers go missing? (Or when you find hikers apparently with no serious injuries who just froze to death?)
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Frankly, I think the gov. got involved because there was a nuclear physicist and others who had worked at nuclear plants, had gone missing.. Especially near a border..
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the sole "big picture" explanation that makes sense.
So what is this big picture explanation? That they left the tent as it became clear it's too cold / unsuitable due to whatever reason (wind, torn tent, blizzard etc.), and tried to survive the night near a campfire but failed?
I think even the "big picture" will depend on what evidence you include and exclude. One could go solely by the official case file and conclude that the authorities opened a criminal case and appointed an investigator from the police before there was any hint, according to the case files, of any crime having occurred, before the ravine 4 were found...
Is it standard procedure to involve the police when hikers go missing? (Or when you find hikers apparently with no serious injuries who just froze to death?)
Yes, it fits perfectly into what is often called a "death by misadventure." A reconstruction would likely tell us what happened to the tent that night, but as authorities fighting about who investigates an incident, do you realize how common that is? And it can be related to all kinds of things, including petty squabbles, someone wants the "limelight" (for professional gain or just because he/she is narcissistic), etc.
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Bodies are moved during emotion distress. Very common for friends and loved ones to move or alter bodies when discover. Placing them together, side by side is also common.
Also to my understanding... only Doroshenko had any indication of possibly being moved. They probable just carry or drag him to his friend so they are together. Not uncommon behavior.
Remember we already know their friends were tampering their corpse to remove their clothing. They may have flipped them or moved them a short way to access their clothing, then put them side by side and left.
I do not believe this is any indication of bad behavior. Most likely explanation is other group members moved one of them after death.
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The Rav4 had to be moved.. They didnt die in the ravine. Especially not all lined up like that.. And Georgy had to be moved as he was burned and but not near the fire when found. Tho he could have moved himself.. I doubt that tho..
Whats odd is that they are lined up. Maybe they didnt know if they were dead or maybe still dying at the time..
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The Rav4 had to be moved.. They didnt die in the ravine.
Says who? This is not fact.
Especially not all lined up like that..
And Georgy had to be moved as he was burned and but not near the fire when found. Tho he could have moved himself.. I doubt that tho..
We already know Yuri's corpses were tampered by the group. I have already explain that moving your friends together after death is not suspicious.
Whats odd is that they are lined up. Maybe they didnt know if they were dead or maybe still dying at the time..
Two in the ravine are embracing. Normal behavior. One is a few inches away. Normal behavior and was probably embracing at one point too... Or was already dead. The reason they are close is likely because that is the only area of the ravine that they dropped into. They were gravely wounded there. The den was nearby, I think the 3 men were moving to get others to the den (possibly the already injured lyuda) when they stepped on a false snow ledge and fell from the top of the bank, into the ravine, onto the stream rocks they were found on.
Lyuda is a few feet away. She was leaning on a ledge, NOT LINED UP. I think she was trying to climb the ledge she was found leaning on to either get to the others who had already fallen or to get to the den.
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Bodies are moved during emotion distress. Very common for friends and loved ones to move or alter bodies when discover. Placing them together, side by side is also common.
Absolutely.
Also to my understanding... only Doroshenko had any indication of possibly being moved. They probable just carry or drag him to his friend so they are together. Not uncommon behavior.
It doesn't work that way. I don't know how well and in detail you know the topology of this place by the cedar, but in order for them to be in the place where they are shown in the picture of Eugene Serditykh, they had to be both moved. They are about 1.5 meters (5ft) from the campfire site. Most likely some of the branches that were breaking on the cedar were lying there (fallen there). And also, judging by the burns of Krivonischenko, they were near the fire and he partially came into contact with the embers of the fire. At the moment when K. appeared there, he might not have been in contact with the coals, but he was close. That is why K. moved (rather dragged) first Doroshenko and then him.
Remember we already know their friends were tampering their corpse to remove their clothing. They may have flipped them or moved them a short way to access their clothing, then put them side by side and left.
It's hard say where the clothes were removed, but they were laid out in that place already without clothes. Here you are completely correct, as I think.
I do not believe this is any indication of bad behavior. Most likely explanation is other group members moved one of them after death.
Absolutely right, I completely agree with you here.
PS. Alas, I must apologize, but for 2 or 3 weeks I will not be able answer questions if they are asked.
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The Rav4 had to be moved.. They didnt die in the ravine.
Says who? This is not fact.
Especially not all lined up like that..
And Georgy had to be moved as he was burned and but not near the fire when found. Tho he could have moved himself.. I doubt that tho..
We already know Yuri's corpses were tampered by the group. I have already explain that moving your friends together after death is not suspicious.
Whats odd is that they are lined up. Maybe they didnt know if they were dead or maybe still dying at the time..
Two in the ravine are embracing. Normal behavior. One is a few inches away. Normal behavior and was probably embracing at one point too... Or was already dead. The reason they are close is likely because that is the only area of the ravine that they dropped into. They were gravely wounded there. The den was nearby, I think the 3 men were moving to get others to the den (possibly the already injured lyuda) when they stepped on a false snow ledge and fell from the top of the bank, into the ravine, onto the stream rocks they were found on.
Lyuda is a few feet away. She was leaning on a ledge, NOT LINED UP. I think she was trying to climb the ledge she was found leaning on to either get to the others who had already fallen or to get to the den.
In order not repeat myself and to highlight only the most important, I will try answer in the remaining few minutes....
1. Their "hugging" can only be normal for carrying Zolotarev on the back of Kolevatov. No fantasy of "warming up" makes any physical sense. Zolotarev's clothes are more powerful and this process is not completely realistic in the cold.
2.No injuries could have been sustained in that ravine. There is not enough energy there for such injuries. Very low banks. Also, the "collapse of the ledge" is twice the fake.
A) there was very little snow for "collapse."
B) no "cornice" is forming there. This is contrary to the nature of such phenomena. In warm years, the niche of "sweating out" low snow from the creek is so small that not even fingernail could be broken there.
C) the creek rocks are heavily vegetated and have blanket of snow in winter, which creates good crèche. That's why nothing would break there. They could only be injured 40...50 m from this spot. There's as 6 to 8 meter (18 to 25 ft) high slope and it's real there.
D) contrary to all legends, this foursome was not at the campfire, and they were not carried from there, but to the campfire, that is, there. Otherwise, their actions represent sheer stupidity. Although it seems logical to some. But these people do not know the conditions in that place, nor do they have any experience of such travel, and they have no idea what the real cold is and how deal with it.
E) Lyuda, in her condition, was not only unable "climb" anywhere, but it was even too difficult for her breathe. I'm not sure that she was still alive 20 to 30 minutes after the injury. They brought her there and put her "as is" without considering her state of viability. Alas, these are the circumstances and the reality of the case.
F) in the condition in which the three were after the trauma, no one, except maybe Zolotarev, could move at all on his own. Of course, except for Kolevatov, who could do something, and did, as the only one among them.
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I think, at the end of the day, what we can glean from this is that they were still alive or they didnt know if they were or not.. So they were placed there.
Which, again, points to them being injured in the woods.. Not at the slope. I think we can go with that s a given at this point.
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I would suggest WAB is correct here. It is a challenge to suppose otherwise.
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I would suggest WAB is correct here. It is a challenge to suppose otherwise.
?? right about what??
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Points one and two. Two (A through F)
Happy to help.
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What if there was primary injuries AND deadly injuries ?
Tibo has a side-head wound, just like Slobodin and Krivo.
Could they have been hurt the same way, and then a small fall would have make Tibo's wound worst ? The other 2 are clearly dead from hypothermia -along with other factor for Krivo.
It would be even easier to explain for Dubinina (and Zolotaryov) : She would have first been getting broken ribs, -but even if unable to walk, she would have been pulled to a shelter/fire by her friends-, and then the fall. A broken rib get through her heart when they all fall in the ravine. The other would probably not have displaced her on a long distance (even 50 meter -from Wab's 6-8 meter slope- can be call a long distance when you also have to think about surviving yourself) if she was dead at first...
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What???
"D) contrary to all legends, this foursome was not at the campfire, and they were not carried from there, but to the campfire, that is, there. Otherwise, their actions represent sheer stupidity. Although it seems logical to some. But these people do not know the conditions in that place, nor do they have any experience of such travel, and they have no idea what the real cold is and how deal with it"
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There are 6 temple wounds to 5 people. This is not random.
What if there was primary injuries AND deadly injuries ?
Tibo has a side-head wound, just like Slobodin and Krivo.
Could they have been hurt the same way, and then a small fall would have make Tibo's wound worst ? The other 2 are clearly dead from hypothermia -along with other factor for Krivo.
It would be even easier to explain for Dubinina (and Zolotaryov) : She would have first been getting broken ribs, -but even if unable to walk, she would have been pulled to a shelter/fire by her friends-, and then the fall. A broken rib get through her heart when they all fall in the ravine. The other would probably not have displaced her on a long distance (even 50 meter -from Wab's 6-8 meter slope- can be call a long distance when you also have to think about surviving yourself) if she was dead at first...
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Another theory about "moving" the den's body :
If there was any king of ceiling falling on the den's 4, they could have been moved just by the snow.
The branches (with the frozen cloth on it) stay in place, because it's too light and grippy, but the body are sliding downstream with the snow cover. They were in the den when they died, crushed ; natural factor drag them some 20 meters further.
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If the rav4 were in the snow cave,, where was Zena, Rustem and Igor for an hour or two?
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My own opinion is the snow cave is over stated. Mechanically it can't be done.
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Why not?
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Not enough snow.
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How do you know?
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"At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick."
(Akselrod witness testimony, https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312?rbid=17743)
There was quite enough snow to build a den, no worries with that.
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Dona (reply 28)
My assumption was based on the photo called "den", the floor that has been excavated would require another metre or two of snow on it at the time of digging by the hikers. It then remained undiscovered for several months but doesn't seem to have accumulated more than a couple of further metres. Am happy to be convinced otherwise, and of course it is only an assumption and not a factual statement.
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The walls only need to be one foot thick So, certainly doable there.
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Hi Dona. When you say the walls need only be one foot thick, are you envisaging an igloo type structure?
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Hello
No. I watched some YouTube videos and thats what they said..
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My on going objection to the"cave" idea is it would require quite deep packed snow and a team of diggers. The latter is for me not a given, the former debatable. I still believe the"den" was a flat spot, on which branches were placed to reduce heat transfer. If so, they chose the location as the fire area was no longer life giving.
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Why do think think they would NOT build one?
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If you assume those found in the ravine built the den whilst alive in their state of dress it's a tough ask. With their injuries, impossible.
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I dont think the Rav4 dug it.. They have no injuries to their hands.
I heard the wood was at ground level.. So, they had to have dug, to some degree.. And it was the only thing that would have saved their lives.. I cant see then not doing it.
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So would you propose some of the remaining five dug it?
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Yes...
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Probably Zena, Igor and Rustem.. Yuri and Georgy seem to be on some kind of sentry duty..
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If the 2 Yuri died after the Den 4, how can we explain the fact they're undressed and that the Den 4 have their clothes on ?
It's not totally impossible, but it seems strange.
On the picture, they don't look like they were swapping clothes on a regular basis. The only explanation I see would bee the den 4 grab anything they can in the tent (happening to have lots of Doroshenko and Krivo's clothes) but didn't share with them ?
You hypothesis can still work with only Dyatlov, Zina and Slobodin digging the den.
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So at the point of digging, at least seven were still alive. Three then vacate up hill and four die in situ. Where were the three going?
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Possibly the just grabbed o clothes as the could.. I just cant see Luda outliving Georgy..
Yep, I think they dug it.. Yuri and Georgy were on tree and fire duty.. Or thats what they chose for themselves..
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At this point.. and its still early for me.. I think they were spying on the tent.. to see if the coast was clear..possibly.. They didnt retrace their steps back..
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But then, if Dyatlov, Zina and Slobodin die on their way up after digging, how are the Den 4 dying ? If The "slop 3" were at the den, why didn't get hrt the same way the other did ? Where, how did Dubinina and Zolotaryov get their injuries ? And to go back to the subject, haw did they move out of the den ?
(They may have stayed in the den : i'm looking at it, but the snow may have just "pushed them" while slowly sliding into the ravine. Bienko talk about this possibility -sorry, i'll have to look back for the reference -It was not on this site.)
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Hi Dona, reply 44. Will have to think about this scenario. What were the ravine deceased doing whilst the ravine was being dug. Let me think for a while. It is a possibility.
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Hi Dona, reply 44. Will have to think about this scenario. What were the ravine deceased doing whilst the ravine was being dug. Let me think for a while. It is a possibility.
Dying.. :)
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But then, if Dyatlov, Zina and Slobodin die on their way up after digging, how are the Den 4 dying ? If The "slop 3" were at the den, why didn't get hrt the same way the other did ? Where, how did Dubinina and Zolotaryov get their injuries ? And to go back to the subject, haw did they move out of the den ?
(They may have stayed in the den : i'm looking at it, but the snow may have just "pushed them" while slowly sliding into the ravine. Bienko talk about this possibility -sorry, i'll have to look back for the reference -It was not on this site.)
They did get hit like the others.. Rustem has a fractured skull and Zena had one of the 6 temple wounds.. and more more..
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Hi Dona, reply 44. Will have to think about this scenario. What were the ravine deceased doing whilst the ravine was being dug. Let me think for a while. It is a possibility.
Also, they werent in the ravine yet.. Maybe some were but Simon wasnt, for sure.. His lividity has him dying on his back yet he is in the ravine on his side..
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The hikers didnt put the rav4 in the ravine.. Someone else did..
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Stacy Galloway, author of the book "Death of Nine" states the eyes were injured while Simon and Luda were alive..
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So, what we have here is Luda, essentially bare legged with just panties, tights, stockings and a garter belt on, with nearly a half gallon of blood in her lung space.. and she out lives Georgy and Yuri..
WTH?
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Perhaps the four hikers found together died in the position they were found in, but died on the branch seating. Then they were shunted by shifting snow and carried by melt water to their final position?
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Anything is possible but, they are all perfectly lined up..so.. I dont think so. Doesn't seem random .
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Update"
Hikers with injuries to the SIDES of their heads:
Alex
Nick
Georgy
Rustem
Zena
Luda
Simon
Hikers with wounds to the back of their heads : 0
Hikers with wounds to the front of their heads: 0
Hikers with wounds to the top of their heads: 0
This is not a coincidence.
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Stacy Galloway, author of the book "Death of Nine" states the eyes were injured while Simon and Luda were alive..
What bring her to this conclusion ?
If it's "injured", could it be something like a bad bacterial ophthalmia ? From rubbing their eyes with snowy mittens.
Their eyes didn't "pop out" or weren't removed while alive, but the cornea was damaged, allowing water & bugs to eat them easily.
Perhaps the four hikers found together died in the position they were found in, but died on the branch seating. Then they were shunted by shifting snow and carried by melt water to their final position?
I agree with that.
There's lined up because the snow, even dragging them, has no reason to push on quicker than the other. Lyuda went a bit to far and fall in the next bassin, and maybe while the snow was melting Semyon and Sacha rolled a bit, but there were all going the same speed.
Though, that implies that the snow cave was a real one : they were really burried in snow. If they had been under a over-hang or anything of that kind, they would have stay in place : Even if the overhang broke at some point, it would have reform above them while the snow cover was going forward.
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Stacy Galloway was referencing an histological report and said there was active bleeding in the sockets.. I dont think those reports are on this site.. Not that I know of
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The only thing I can think of as far as Luda.. Yuri died of pulmonary edema.. Maybe he was a mouth breather and the cold air hit him hard causing lung damage or he had just had a cold etc.. His lungs may have been compromised to begin with and died fairly quickly.. and the clothes on Luda were his. Or, she had them on when she left the tent.
Hmmm and he doesnt have a head injury.. hmm, maybe there is a clue in that..
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Well, honestly, by -30/40, everybody is a mouth breather if you don't have a scarf in front of your nose ! ^^
Your nose is freezing cold as well... :p
(breathing in the mouth and out the nose is also a good option ; you end up with a stalactite under your nose (or a totally frozen mustach), but it's less painfull than a frosbitten tip of the nose -I had a blister just there 2 years ago cry2. a real clown nose for a few days ! )
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I'm sure it was endearing wink1
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Delete whacky1
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So, if someone died before Luda, that would mean she wast injured yet.. So.. how long did Yuri last.. I think he did the tree branch work.. So, maybe an hour..
This means they werent immediately ambushed when they hit the tree line. So they werent injured for awhile.. at least an hour..? Guesstimation..
This also proves they were not injured on the slope.
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Well, we can add Yuri to the side of head injury list.. Both his ears were bruised and swollen.. Could it be frostbite? Do you get swelling with frostbite?
That would leave Igor to be the only one without it
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Isnt it odd that they had a flashlight with them.. Luda is half naked, Igor drops his coat and doesn't pick it up, yet, someone has a flashlight..
Its like they already had it out,,looking for something in the dark, prior to the incident. Simon and Nick, I think it was, were fully dressed.. They even had their boots on. I don't think they would do that to just go pee. So maybe they were outside with it, looking for something..
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That explains why Simon still has his camera with him. He never went back inside the tent. He and Nick were still outside when something happened.
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I'm trying to line up the injuries but they dont make sense.. Like wounds on both sides of their bodies. ..
Luda,, middle chest, left thigh..
Rustem, left head, right kidney..
Georgy, right head and left hip..
Seems more and more like attackers.
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And the flashlight again. If something traumatic happened while they were outside.. they wouldn't still have the flashlight in their hand.. He would have dropped it..in a panic situation.
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Odd that they didnt take clothes from the RAV4? Everything they needed to survive, right there..and they dont take them
Maybe they couldnt as they were all pinned under a tree?
Well, that's one for the Tree Team :)
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On the other hand... They dd take a sweater from Luda..
Maybe the others weren't dead yet when they left for the slope.
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My theory is murder.
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I do like the Tree theory but there were a couple of things I had trouble with.
For example: The 2 fractured skulls.. both the same size, the same shape and the same location..
That doesn't seem random to me.
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The strength in the tree theory is that they do appear to all be sleeping at the time.. Lined up sleeping . No denying that.. But in order for the theory to work the tree would have to have been perfectly lined up to fall perfectly lined up on perfectly lined up hikers.. It is possible.. Not very plausible IMO..
Possibly the tree that the tent was tied to was unstable and fell over onto them from the weight of the tent hanging on it.. That might set up good alignment..
But if it was a natural phenomena, who would move the tent and why
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I'm going to stick with the Murder Theory.. As ridiculous as it sounds on the face of it, that's where the evidence has led me..
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Then, you have to look at Simon and Luda.. Inarguably with the worst injuries..
Who would be the first to stand up if there was a confrontation? Simon... older, wiser, tougher, protective..
Then Luda.. running her Commie, Globalist mouth..
So, I think that can eliminate any foreigners, like the CIA etc. Kind of hard to threaten them with the gulag.
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In fact, Luda running her Commie Globlaist mouth might be what got them all killed..
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In fact, Luda running her Commie Globlaist mouth might be what got them all killed..
I really dont want to sound that rude, but that is one of the most brainwashed american comments on this forum. I think you can do a lot better.
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Well, you know what they say.. " The only good commie is a dead Commie"..
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Well, you know what they say.. " The only good commie is a dead Commie"..
That is what I mean...
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Whats brainwashing about freedom.. No one wants to be owned and especially not by a government..
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Whats brainwashing about freedom.. No one wants to be owned and especially not by a government..
It is interesting that you say this. Keep in mind your vision about "commies", and let me know if it is genuinly what you were indoctrinated to, or a matter of personal expirience. But let us not derail the topic further. My bad for starting this, apologies.
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I started this board.. so.. Do you think I am a Commie????? Im confused.
Indoctrinated into what??
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I started this baord.. so.. Do you think I am a Commie????? Im confused.
No. I think you reflect on the Pass mystery in a very predictible western/american way, especially in terms of involving communism and political specifics. That is why I disagree with you on that matter.
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I started this baord.. so.. Do you think I am a Commie????? Im confused.
No. I think you reflect on the Pass mystery in a very predictible western/american way, especially in terms of involving communism and political specifics. That is way I disagree with you on that matter.
Morski, please don't think all of us Americans are like dona. Trust me, I would NEVER speak like that about someone else's culture. I chose a while ago not to engage with dona because they say crap like that and nothing I would respond with would bring any value or productivity to the conversation. That is pretty much why this board is mostly dona taking to their self; very few other people want to even comment. Sad when one person chased away all the intelligent discussions.
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The locals think the Commies did it.. what are you talking about? Its one of the theories..
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Kfinn is stalker, watch out for that one..
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"...intelligent discussion"?
How long have you been here??
She also thinks something with 42 angles is sled..
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I started this baord.. so.. Do you think I am a Commie????? Im confused.
No. I think you reflect on the Pass mystery in a very predictible western/american way, especially in terms of involving communism and political specifics. That is why I disagree with you on that matter.
Also, if it helps any, there is an ignore option. I have dona on ignore so I only see that they've posted or someone else's replies but not what they post (unless it is quoted like here.) It helps a LOT with your sanity, trust me.
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I started this baord.. so.. Do you think I am a Commie????? Im confused.
No. I think you reflect on the Pass mystery in a very predictible western/american way, especially in terms of involving communism and political specifics. That is way I disagree with you on that matter.
Morski, please don't think all of us Americans are like dona. Trust me, I would NEVER speak like that about someone else's culture. I chose a while ago not to engage with dona because they say crap like that and nothing I would respond with would bring any value or productivity to the conversation. That is pretty much why this board is mostly dona taking to their self; very few other people want to even comment. Sad when one person chased away all the intelligent discussions.
Oh, no. Please do not get me wrong. I have personal friendships with a lot of americans because of my professional occupation, and have relatives who live in the US. I am perfectly aware that nationality rarely has anything to do with individuality. Nothing personal against Dona, of course. I was just triggred by her idea, that Ludas political commitment (if it was genuine in the first place), led to the groups demise in any way. There are some avenues to explore of course, but they are more related to the way the soviet bureaucratism was functioning I guess, in terms of investigation and so on.
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Oh and she is a racist.. She think the Mansi couldnt be involved because of the color of their skin.. Like they have no mental health issues at all..no psychotics, no schizophrenics etc.. The world should be studying them!! I wonder why they arent.. Hmmm
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I am sorry, but I dont get it. Racism has nothing to do here, or anywhere if you ask me. Mansi are mansi. They are not a wonder of the world, so of course they also suffer from mental and otner issues. Doesnt make them more suspect in any way, but if you go with murder theory they are probably more convinient. People who have specific theory preferences always find convinient aspects to focus on. That hardly makes them a fact, though.
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Oh, I dont know... Say you found a dead body and your drivers license was found at the crime scene.. What do you think would happen to you?
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So, you know of any mansi ID cards left at the crime scene, that we know nothing of...? If a murder happens in your hometown or neighbourhood, does it make you a prime suspect automatically? Anyway, that has nothing to do with my initial point.
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Hard evidence is that the Mansi strap and a leg wrap was left at the crime scene and they found the bodies.. The Mansi WERE there.. Its just a matter of when..
Your initial statement was about Commies.. which many people, world wide, believe had something to do with the incident.. Including many Russians themselves..
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So, its not an American/ Western thing at all. It is only your subtle bigotry..
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Hard evidence is that the Mansi strap and a leg wrap was left at the crime scene and they found the bodies.. The Mansi WERE there.. Its just a matter of when..
Your initial statement was about Commies.. which many people, world wide, believe had something to do with the incident.. Including many Russians themselves..
A strap and leg wrap, which wере widely used by military as well as all kinds of ordinary people in distant areas especially. Also, many people worldwide believe, that the Earth is flat... Although I am not sure about Russians... Ah, well. So is yours bigotry the other way around. A dead end, isnt it?
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The Mansi strap could not have belonged to anyone else.. and they did find the bodies, a mere 100 feet from the crime scene.. ... 2 months and $30K later.. Some trackers they are, eh.
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No, the strap could belong to anyone who could possibly be there - before, during or after the event. Even if it was left by mansi, that means nothing certain. Good luck with your interpretation. thanky1
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Yeah, yeah...
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And to answer your question.. No, Americans are not brainwashed.. We are not the ones eating our pets..
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Well, that is really good to know... I really feel better for american pets... This debate leads us to nowhere. I wish you a good day, Dona.
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Well, it IS better than the worms the UN has planned for ya..Yum!
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And, incidentally, I dont talk to people in here because I dont want to talk about avalanches and lightning bolts.. Thats all they got going on in here..after years and years of going at it. The arent here for Dyatlov Pass.. they are here for a hen party..
No thanks..
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Bugs for Bulgarians! Enjoy!
“Worms For Dinner?” World Economic Forum Promotes Mealworms as New Protein Source in Europe’s Bid to Reduce Meat Consumption
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/worms-dinner-world-economic-forum-promotes-mealworms-new-protein-source-europes-bid-reduce-meat-consumption/
Careful what you wish for, people; you might get it.
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Then, you have to look at Simon and Luda.. Inarguably with the worst injuries..
Who would be the first to stand up if there was a confrontation? Simon... older, wiser, tougher, protective..
Then Luda.. running her Commie, Globalist mouth..
So, I think that can eliminate any foreigners, like the CIA etc. Kind of hard to threaten them with the gulag.
AFAIK, there is nothing in any known primary-source documents that clearly establishes Lyudmila Dubinina as exceptional in her commitment to Communist orthodoxy:
I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism, just references on this forum and elsewhere on the web to secondary sources which appear to be quoting people who knew her.
You will not be able find it. Because it is bad myth, created either because people do not understand it at all, or for the purpose of political propaganda. It is necessary know and understand well everything that was related to the youth of that time, so that you can say something truthful.
In the largest number of student youth then in events such as travel, at least something used from politics. They could make jokes about something on this subject (as in their handwritten sheet) or write something about the party's congress on paper in order to let their comrades out of work at the right time. But that was the end of it. They had many other natural hobbies to pursue politics. All this I say because I saw everything in the real life of that time, not because I read somewhere in unreliable source.
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Wow......
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From The BBC...
"Lyudmila Dubinina, the youngest skier, had a reputation as a stern, somewhat humourless member of the Komsomol - the Young Communists."
Luda was raised by staunch Communist parents and was argumentative, per her own diary
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Wow, yes.. People are pretty miserable in general.. such a shame.
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Now, where was I before I was so rudely interrupted by the local nut-job and some guy who felt the need to unload his emotional baggage on some random person he has never met before..
Ah, yes.. Luda and Simon.. both laying in the ravine on their injured side.. of course, that would never happen while alive.. And, everyone's injuries are inconsistent.. Some on the left side.. some on the right,. Some vertical, some horizontal.. I dont think that can be explained with a single source, single hit. except maybe a forked tree..Hmmm. And Nicks underarm injury can be seen as a defense wound.. throwing his arm up and turning his head .. Still damn sure looks like they were lying down.. I dont know.. See what comes up..
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See, we have the same 5 inch wound on Ludas left leg and Nicks right arm.. 3 feet apart..
It cant be from the same single event.. I mean unless the were having some kind of sex orgy in there and bodies were everywhere.. Other than that, I can't explain it..
Then we have Nick and Alex with odd puncture/stab wounds. Nick to his left upper lip area and Alex behind his left ear... And the U shaped wounds.. 3 of them had those.. Igor had one on each cheek.. And I think it was Yuri and one other person.. Someone suggested they were from the butt of gun but seem too small for that.. So many wounds.. so many different planes.. so many different types.. I just dont seem how it can be a single event.
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These U shaped wounds.. How do you get 4-5 matching wounds on 3 people, all in different locations?? And Igor with one on each cheek.. I think it was Yuri and Georgy with the others.. arms and legs..Same wounds, same size and shape, 3 locations.
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The clothing in the open field area, half of Ludas sweater and Georgys pants. The other halves are in the den. I think the entire items were probably cut in the den and used to sit on and the other halves to cover Igors head etc.. I think they just dropped these halves on the ground on the way to the slope.
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Why is it that the Mansi took so long to track the rav4.. Was it for the money.. maybe they didnt want to seem obvious...A Navajo Indian would not have had to leave his chair to tell you where they were.. And if they came after the incident,, why didnt they report it? And how did they get on the scene so quickly afterwards.. Someone moved the bodies before they froze solid.. and it wasnt the hikers..
Things to ponder...
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Georgys U shaped injuries to his leg..Strange enough but Igor has them on his face too..And Yuri has one on his arm, so weird.
(https://i.ibb.co/vBJ0nLT/UU-s.png)
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There is nothing in the woods, but woods.
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So, how did the Mansi end up at the scene so quickly..
As i said before, I am a clairvoyant and I did hear them screaming.. Zena, Igor and 1-2 others.. And I mean they were SCREAMING! That had to travel for miles. The Mansi could have heard it.. I'm sure they did if they were in the area.. Or hunters etc..
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So... who would move the bodies? Would you do that? Of course not.. I mean, aside from the crime scene situation... You still wouldn't move them.. I think most people have an aversion to something like that..I think that eliminates the average person..like other hikers etc..
Narrowing it down..
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It's not the CIA.
They would not have hung out for hours. Nor would they be concerned with Russian citizens.
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I think we can rule out the loggers.. I doubt the had the time, resources or the inclination for such a trip.
The hunters are out too. As far as I can tell, they hunted solo.. This isnt a weekend trip with their best bro's.. And I think it would have taken more then one person to do this. Tho one could have moved the bodies.. lot of work tho for one person.. But if they have the fortitude to kill and gut an animal, they wouldnt have that natural averion to handling dead bodies.
So, that leaves Mansi and the government..
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It was the government.. Who are the ONLY people they would not fight back against.. The military/government..
They were set up and ambushed in the woods.
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Hi Dona,
How are you getting on ?
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I'm good. How are you? Glad to finally get to the end of this..thats for sure. :)
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I'm good thanks.
I am glad you have got to the end of it. What have you concluded?
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The military or government.. They are the only ones who could have pulled it off..the hikers didnt fight back. The government, in some form. I think one of them was up to something illegal.. Kill one and you have to kill them all.
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Could you expand your thoughts? I am just interested. It's easy for me to ask as I am as lost as most of us. I struggle with the motive of military or government because of the logistics and motive in the remote area. I can not think of a reason to deliberately murder their own people in the middle of nowhere. Plus there were Mansi about .
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Well, Who are they only people that the hikers would not fight back.. who could make them take a death march to the woods.. the bodies lined up, military style.. Who can make them do all that? The knew the were dying and did nothing to save themselves.. The KNEW they were dying.. They knew that the minute the walked out of the tent and headed for the woods.. Only the government could make them do that.. IMO. I think they injured them, slashed the tent and left them for dead..
Governments will kill an airliner full of people to get to one of them.. They do that now and especially so in a Communist country.. I dont know about the Mansi.. maybe they moved the bodies.. who knows.. doesnt matter really. I dont think the Mansi could have pulled it off.. The hikers surely would have fought for their lives with them..
Just my opinion.. but thats what I think, given what we know.
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You have to look at the injuries. These people were attacked, by someone.. For example.. Igor has machining wounds on both sides of his face.. A tree falling would have smashed his face and nose.. yet there is nothing. Then, most all of them had head wounds.. again, some matching.. 3 people with matching U shaped wounds.. This was an attack..
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How did they die if they were forced out? And what was the motive and what government killed an airliner full of people?
Also I meant the Mansi would have been in the area. How would the government know where witnesses were.
I hope my questions are not rude.
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Not rude at all :)
They were forced out of the tent, into the wild.. under-dressed.. Igor didnt even stop to pick up his coat.
If the Mansi saw everything,, would they say anything.. I think not.. You dont do that against a government. They know that.. I think thats wh they didnt shoot them.. It would have been heard for miles.
The airliner.. a few suspected.. but remember the 4-5 scientist that went down in a plane crash man years ago.. They were involved in something controversial.. and now the are dead.. all on one plane.. The woman who made Ob amas birth certificate. went down in a helicopter full of people.. Ironically, she was the only survivor. but died a week later in the hospital. Really?
These things happen.
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Ah yes, motive.. I think one of them was up to something or had been or they feared the were.. maybe this wasn't intentional but worked out that way.. who knows..
But the evidence is what it is and crazy as it may sounds, its all you have..
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The tree falling is a tempting theory but.. Take Simon and Luda out the equation.. now does it look like a tree fall? I dont think so.
I do feel like there is still something missing here.. We will probably never know the entire story of what happened...
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I've not heard of the Obama birth certificate thing. Obama was an amazing president. Internationally too. You would have been proud of him.
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Really? What did he do for anyone.. Nothing I see..
He was at war the entire 8 years but he did give us washing machines that turn themselves off if you try to use hot water.. Gee, thanks!
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The there was his "arrest White kids only" policy. The Promise Program... that got a dozen kids killed in a Florida High School.. They shooter had police at his house over 40 times and nothing happened to him.. not once.. People even report him to the FBI for fear of being a school shooter.. again, nothing.. Because he was Hispanic..
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Sorry Dona,
I don't know enough about it to comment.
I would just say dump the guns.
Anyway, your thoughts on the government being involved are interesting and I respect your observations on the injuries. thumb1
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Dumping guns would only give us a stabbing rate equal to the Brits. The highest in the world.. :) But its not the guns.. I believe in Switzerland the people are assigned guns by the government.. and they dont have an issue.. Its not the guns..
But you dont punish law biding people for what criminals do. Thats like banning cars because some people are drunk drivers.
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AAnyway.. I think the military or government is the only thing thats seems right.. with what we know.
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Could be Dona. I guess we are all stuck.
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Well, no theory will ever be proven,so. cry2
And I am only about 75% sure :) Too much we dont know..
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So, there the were.. Alone on a mountain top. You would think thats the safest place on the planet one could be.. I mean, what could get you there? But, thats why all theories sound a little crazy.. because something crazy happened.
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My opinion is that Dyatlov was carried too under his arms and laid to ground when dead, or he died while they were carrying/dragging his body. That's why his arms are bent like they are.
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Also, his hands could have been tied before his death (his legs too).