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Author Topic: Evidence  (Read 56032 times)

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January 07, 2021, 04:29:24 AM
Reply #30
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Ziljoe


Sorry Teddy ,I didn't explain myself well.

I looked at your photo of Krivonischenko in the morgue and agree that it could be a belt or elastic that formed that shape of the shirt.

I also looked at the photo of when Krivonischenko was found under the ceder. His shirt appears to be halfway up his torso when found .

So I was thinking that they may have found Krivonischenko some point earlier ( or even all of them) . The morgue photo of Krivonischenko could predate the photo of him under the ceder based on you pointing out the shirt.

My head was going in the direction of they cut his trousers off at the morgue, someone decided to stage the scene , maybe in a different place and his shirt was dragged up his torso.

I thought that's what you were implying.

I'm no expert on frozen clothing.

I'll get back in my box grin1
 

January 07, 2021, 04:35:19 AM
Reply #31
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Teddy

Administrator
Dear Teddy, I'm just wondering if I can ask you what enlightened you so much that you suddenly have your own theory. Just a year ago, you claimed that you had no theory.

All true. read this https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=756.msg11529#msg11529
 

January 07, 2021, 04:44:44 AM
Reply #32
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Teddy

Administrator
Sorry Teddy ,I didn't explain myself well.
...
I'm no expert on frozen clothing.

I'll get back in my box grin1

Ziljoe, actually you are 100% right. This impression on his clothing must have happened during transportation because on the photos under the cedar his shirt is up then down (I think someone tried to cover him up for decency). So my "observation" goes out the window. As I said, this is not in the book. It is something I noticed, but more eyes are better.
As it turns out I ain't expert on frozen clothes either.




 

January 07, 2021, 04:53:49 AM
Reply #33
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Teddy

Administrator
Just a year ago, you claimed that you had no theory.

tekumze, it is not my theory. I didn't solve the case. The person who did is the first name that will be on the book, not mine. That person is not ready to come out of the shadows yet. On Feb 1, 2021 he will have to.
 

January 07, 2021, 05:02:06 AM
Reply #34
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Ziljoe


No problem Teddy, I like everyone's theory's.

It's all food for thought and i look forward with what you will reveal in the coming days/weeks.

Glad I could help wink1
 

January 07, 2021, 05:14:47 AM
Reply #35
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Teddy

Administrator
I keep looking at the shirt (instead writing the book) and I am not sure if it was pulled down. Maybe this is because the photos were taken from a different angle. Maybe I still have a point. But this is an example about how we will never agree even on points that are photographed, leave alone speculations without any tangible evidence.

Our theory is not build on single facts that could be argued one by one. It is an overall scenario that could explain everything, but details like this one will never be proven. I am not referring to court, even in forums, we will never agree on details. But so far we don't have the big picture where to fit the pieces of the puzzle. This is what's coming on Feb 1, 2021. Only if I stop foruming  lipseal1
 

January 07, 2021, 05:23:18 AM
Reply #36

tekumze

Guest
Just a year ago, you claimed that you had no theory.

tekumze, it is not my theory. I didn't solve the case. The person who did is the first name that will be on the book, not mine. That person is not ready to come out of the shadows yet. On Feb 1, 2021 he will have to.

I can't wait to see what the findings will be.
 thumb1
 

January 07, 2021, 05:56:53 AM
Reply #37
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Nigel Evans


It would be very easy to remove his trousers slowly (with respect?) and leave a "girdle mark". Particularly if the clothing was stiffening with cold. I hope you've got more than that.

This is not in the book, just an observation that confirms my theory.
Why would one remove the pants slowly if taking them from a dead body to survive from a hypothermia which is what everyone believes at the moment.
I am giving you clues to the theory, but I don't have time to discuss them at this particular moment.
If they prevaricated over the removal for just say half an hour it would be enough for the fabric to stiffen.
 

January 07, 2021, 01:07:05 PM
Reply #38
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Being serious this time.  I am toying with the idea, that the tent was found, but not on Kholat Syakhl, and not with the dead hikers.  Maybe it turned up somewhere where it should not have been, before the hikers were reported missing.  And possibly with someone who should not have had it?  Possibly, the tent was taken/stolen, leaving the hikers in a desperate situation?  That's alot of possibles.

Regards

Star man

Lots of possibles and not much Evidence.
DB
 

January 07, 2021, 01:09:56 PM
Reply #39
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Being serious this time.  I am toying with the idea, that the tent was found, but not on Kholat Syakhl, and not with the dead hikers.  Maybe it turned up somewhere where it should not have been, before the hikers were reported missing.  And possibly with someone who should not have had it?  Possibly, the tent was taken/stolen, leaving the hikers in a desperate situation?  That's alot of possibles.

Regards

Star man

A prediction. But no Evidence to back up the prediction  !  ?  No Evidence that points to any human outsiders being responsible for the demis of the Dyatlov Group.

I'll predict that the tent was originally said to have been set up in the forest, (the sensible place) and that was where some suffocating and burning military calamity occurs, which then requires a cover-up at state level. Bodies are positioned to make it appear they died after leaving their tent, two with burns placed near a fire to make that suggestion, others placed in a ravine in the hope decomposition will mask their suspicious injuries or the water will decontaminate them, and the tent itself was air-lifted up to the ridge, explaining the assembly point of footprints, with everything neatly laid out inside, to stage it as being abandoned, with the stagers footprints leading back down to the cedar.
DB
 

January 07, 2021, 01:11:53 PM
Reply #40
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


Well put Nigel. A hell of a lot of faking would need to have been done. Hardly KGB territory.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 10:38:59 AM by sarapuk »
DB
 

January 07, 2021, 02:07:32 PM
Reply #41

DAXXY

Guest
It might be left from transportation ropes.




 

January 07, 2021, 02:15:10 PM
Reply #42

DAXXY

Guest
similar straight marks on sweater


 

January 07, 2021, 04:17:50 PM
Reply #43
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 05:12:06 PM by Star man »
 

January 08, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
Reply #44
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RidgeWatcher


I always thought the idea of the labor/cache was very strange. To store items on virtually a platform in the snow. What if the Dyatlov hikers were unable to come back from Otorton that way. I would have hidden one off the main Auspiya which the group would have to pass on the way back, unlike in the canyon of the Auspiya valley.

If the tent was in the forest it would explain the axe being down there by the near identical cut wood on the floor of the den.

I wonder if it was WAB? That might explain his brilliant and sudden departure?
 

January 08, 2021, 12:56:22 AM
Reply #45

tekumze

Guest


I wonder if it was WAB? That might explain his brilliant and sudden departure?
[/quote]


Can you please define more precisely what you mean by  "that might explain WAB brilliant and sudden departure?"
 

January 08, 2021, 01:15:12 AM
Reply #46

tekumze

Guest
We had quite a bit of time last year because of Corona 19. And we went with the group to the DPI venue.
What is quite interesting is that the venue is actually completely different than you imagine from information through the mass media. What surprised me the most was that the “ravine” as probably everyone imagines it doesn’t exist at all. I don’t know who has an interest in exaggerating. The area where the "ravine" are supposed to be is a plain stream. No more no less. And yes, the slope of the mountain is something else entirely. It is not possible to understand who could have believed in any landslide theory at all. In practice, there is no possibility that hikers have been injured due to any trips and falls.
Basically what Teddy says happened to us too. When you stand on the scene, you realize that none of what they are trying to sell us is true.
None of what is known can be true.
I will have many more questions after February 1st. Definitely.
 

January 08, 2021, 05:55:37 AM
Reply #47

DAXXY

Guest
I think there are many situations where translation gives us a different idea.  Ravine could be a Gully.

By avalanche they could mean a snow den collapsing under a bank of snow.  Because it isn't a 'landslide' or 'rockfall' and snow moving down hill is, by definition, an avalanche. 
Some information I have seen online..

Snow dens are better for above the tree line and take time and skill to build, and make the builders wet from snow and sweat.  A snow trench shelter is better and safer in many situations in forest. 

When snow has accumulated on a slope it uses the snow at the base of the slope as a support.  Maximum weight and pressure is directed towards the snow at the base of the slope.  Making a den (a cavity) under a snow slope does not add to the insulation of the den, but greatly increases the risk of the slope collapsing. In many situations a snow trench shelter is safer, especially below the treeline.   It is quick to make, shallow, Less risk from collapse, Has a light weight roof, and good insulation.

I guess the stream was in a gully and the water had to run down a slope.  So the snow accumulated on the slope. Then collapsed on them when they dug a cavity in to the base of the snow slope. All plausible...
This is not to criticize the group for what they did.  They had their own reasons for their choices.  They may have needed to act quickly.

There is a similarity with another case....

The Buryatia  Incident August 1993
https://dyatlovpass.com/hamar-daban
A group of tourists from Kazakhstan, led by professional climber Lyudmila Korovina. Once they made it to Buryatia, the group set out on a journey across the Chamar-Daban mountain range on 2 August. The weather wasn’t on their side: it was pouring down cold rain and snow. Nevertheless, the group continued on their route relatively safely until 5 August.

Six out of seven in their group did not survive.
The only survivor, Valentina Utochenko, 17, later wrote in a statement how, during the difficult descent, carried out in near zero visibility, one of the members of the group was struck down hard, foaming at the mouth and bleeding from the ears. The rest of the group shortly developed the same symptoms.

(Yuri Doroshenko (found at the cedar tree) autopsy....right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema).

The six members who died had done so almost simultaneously, after rolling around on the ground, tearing their clothes off and clutching their throats. The young woman was left alone. Nearly unconscious, she navigated the power lines until she reached the river at the bottom, where she was rescued by a group of kayaking tourists.
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:07:35 PM by DAXXY »
 

January 08, 2021, 10:44:03 AM
Reply #48
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
We had quite a bit of time last year because of Corona 19. And we went with the group to the DPI venue.
What is quite interesting is that the venue is actually completely different than you imagine from information through the mass media. What surprised me the most was that the “ravine” as probably everyone imagines it doesn’t exist at all. I don’t know who has an interest in exaggerating. The area where the "ravine" are supposed to be is a plain stream. No more no less. And yes, the slope of the mountain is something else entirely. It is not possible to understand who could have believed in any landslide theory at all. In practice, there is no possibility that hikers have been injured due to any trips and falls.
Basically what Teddy says happened to us too. When you stand on the scene, you realize that none of what they are trying to sell us is true.
None of what is known can be true.
I will have many more questions after February 1st. Definitely.

Well I have posted elsewhere in this Forum that I think that the use of the word Ravine could be misleading. It doesnt look like a typical Ravine. And there is no significant height. Its highly unlikely that any of the Dyatlov Group could have been seriously injured there. What we should be studying more is the position of the 4 bodies in the Stream.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 10:51:17 AM by sarapuk »
DB
 

January 08, 2021, 01:10:55 PM
Reply #49

eurocentric

Guest
Any intro to the DPI brainwashes the reader or viewer with the notion that "they cut their way out and fled in panic, half-dressed into the freezing night", which then generates the big 'Guess The Emergency' game which has kept this mystery alive across 62 years. There'll be many preconditioned enough to be entirely unprepared to entertain the idea of the tent being moved, and there's been two predictable examples already.

But I like a theory, and there are only two other main contenders, which potentially explains as much as possible, satisfying all the known evidences, and it has to be said that the tent being resited, and burnt clothing removed and discarded certainly negates 75% of the oddities in the DPI in one fell swoop, so I think it more than worthwhile exploring, and I look forward to the book.

In the theory I part guessed, predicted by Teddy's clues, the hikers would build their labaz, they arrive at the forest, they make their fire, they set up their tent in their preferred place, the ridge ropes tied to trees, they are properly dressed, everything is as normal up to that point. And then the incident happens.

Anything from a downed missile to them being killed by grenade/ordnance dropped on them by the military who mistake them for escapees at night while operating a dead-or-alive recovery policy. But whatever it was this potentially explains the orbs distant witnesses saw, the burnt tree tops, injuries, scratches, and the tent damage.

Then the cover-up begins, the very next day, and it is beautifully simple, and because the real disaster zone is under tree cover, there's less chance of witnesses, and any footfall there can be explained away as hikers later looking for kindling after abandoning their tent on the ridge.

Burnt clothing is removed, and experienced hikers are left to like rookie idiots who took off clothing in a freezing tent at 3000ft, ignoring their stove and wood by their sides, before being driven out by an unimaginable emergency, for which, whatever it was, there is notably zero material evidence.
 
Their bodies are arranged to make it appear they all died of exposure after descending the pass, and some of them, the incident survivors, ultimately would die of the cold, but perhaps with some help along the way, a few clocks to the head (there is rather a lot of head injuries in this case), a kick to the side, to keep them on the ground, so that the cold did the rest and then they cannot speak of what actually happened. For those who prefer, this is where 3 of the survivors fight and develop knuckle injuries, perhaps after being found hiding in the den.

The tent is air-lifted in a cargo net and tarp, slung under a helicopter, and it is deposited 30 seconds later on the ridge, so that there's no ascending footprints, only the 9 crew who will walk down, in daylight, some told to do so in their bare feet, just as they have skied up. The set down point is the 'assembly footprints' 50 yards away.

Insidiously they use the last diary entry Igor made, which incredibly some here take as a literal plan to be where he expressly did not want to be, away from the sole redeeming feature of his then bleak situation, his comforting warmth, up on that ridge, or they have his handwriting forged to that effect.

But they are unable to set up the ridge ropes properly on a slope, they had nothing to directly refer to in the forest when tied to trees, and this extended tent and stove is unconventional. So they are defeated by the task, explaining why there's no ridge ropes shown tied to the tops of the skis, one of which is also in the wrong position, and the grunts told to set up the tent cannot work out how to install Igor's bespoke creation, the pipe stove, which has to be suspended from that ridge, so they leave it unpacked inside, and collapse the tent and cover it with snow so that it's presented as 'abandoned'.

They have arranged the contents inside like someone with OCD has been round, not the usual attentions of a bunch of knackered hikers who supposedly had just scaled a mountain pass and speed dug a 3ft deep trench in a frozen snowcap before relaxing in their freezing tent and stripping off.

That mock uni leaflet may or may not be genuine. If manufactured it serves to make it appear they were all having a high-functioning time, even while half-dressed in an unheated tent, and is then left in the tent doorway. Notably, too busy with that extracurricular activity, there'd been no time for hikers to write in diaries of how arduous and cold the ascent had been, by far their greatest challenge to date, or to explain why they were apparently toughing it out without heating, something not required for Level 3. Not even the stove-loving lazy Lyuda complains, sat in a tent with a hole so big it needed a coat to plug it, and that vacant tent flue hole.

The stagers make a few unforced errors, there's allegedly a tenth set of skis (maybe some of theirs left behind), a piece of broken ski found nearby (the hikers & incident damaged), and the snapped ski pole cut halfway through. For whatever reason, perhaps damage, they lose or get rid of Zina's camera, but they don't know, without processing the other films, that she is photographed by the others taking pictures.

Did they mistakenly place Zina's photo into Igor's notebook, when it was more likely Yuri D's treasured possession? We are led to believe from some sources that Igor and Zina had been an item, but there's zero body language in any hiking photo, and she had been all over Yuri Y like a bad rash, even twice photographed chatting in a Vizhay doorway, with one photo showing her arm hooked around his, or being helped up by his gallant arms after slipping, and elsewhere, her hand towards his face.

Did they even crossdress Tibo's body in Lyuda's coat and hat for their own humour, another one with a bang to the head, who they'd discover from his ID papers had a father who was executed under Stalin, with him born in a concentration camp, of a French name, so might wish to make indignified fun of him, not a 'true Russian', instead representative of a nation who 'surrendered to Hitler', and which is now the Cold War enemy. Hopefully not, but I can't help thinking it carries that vindictive ring of KGB flavour to it.

Besides the pamphlet, and potentially Igor's diary entry, which may or may not be genuine, the only things which then need faking are the two photo's of the trench digging. This is of itself bizarre, if all sources insist they arrived at 5pm, which even the new inquiry repeats, when darkness fell at 4:29pm, like it does now in Northern Englandm yet the photo's were taken in broad daylight.

Usefully/by design, only one of the 2 apparently location-specific photo's features a hiker's face, a gloweringly cold Yuri K, his face half obscured by snow stuck to it, and appropriately enough, these photo's are not determined to be matched to any hiker film, just part of a collection which came to be known as 'Loose Photo's', so that the negative strip won't be seen.

Then there's Semyon's mysterious camera to explain, which in this scenario may be either a prop strung around his neck to mislead, with images taken elsewhere, or genuine and he was dead when they found him and they didn't realise he'd managed to take photo's of their arrival before he expired. One photo looks remarkably like the shape and colour of a Snowy Owl ('Horn'), a creature which would inhabit and hunt in the forest.

There is also the issue of exchanged clothing. Yuri Y claimed he gave a shirt to Yuri D and then it ended up on Igor - this is otherwise interpreted to mean a half-dressed Igor took the shirt to stay warm after the Yuris' deaths, but equally, in this theory, it can be explained by the military not knowing what shirt to dress Igor with from the tent after they'd taken off his contaminated/burnt one, just as the two burnt Yuris had to be part-stripped, so they picked up the one given by Yuri Y.

And other clothing cut to fashion into sleeves and socks could also be because it can be extremely hard to dress rigid dead bodies in full clothing, bodies here which we know from the autopsies were in some cases moved after death, but it's easy to slip on a sleeve or sock, to make it look like they tried to beat the cold...the same cold we are expected to believe they marched off to their deaths in, inadequately dressed and without taking an axe.

This theory isn't my own preferred one, I painstakingly found one which ticked every box, but that was when accepting the known information, as presented, though the conclusion was as boring as finding Princess Diana simply died in a car accident. But this one, the idea of the tent being staged, holds particular promise IMO, fundamentally because it uniquely addresses the following set of clear absurdities about that tent:

Experienced hikers...motorcycle tourers...mountaineers etc, do not choose to pitch a tent in such an exposed position for no valid reason when there is a better option.

If they do they do not then sit inside, ignoring a stove and fuel they hauled up the elevation, when it's -31C outside around 9pm, and falling, and sit there half-dressed, naively engaging in a jolly time creating a mock publication instead of concerning themselves with survival as temperatures drop overnight and winds pick up. It's bordering on suicide.

If anything happens they do not all as one rip their way out, 9 people in an 12ft tent, via that maniacal slasher number of horizontal & vertical cuts and stabbings, with the one nearest the flap not cutting there or simply ripping the buttons open. It slows everything down.

Once outside they do not suddenly come over all calm and collected, assemble 50 paces away, and walk off in single file, and not recover what they need to take with them if their panic/false alarm has irreparably damaged their tent for overnight stay. It's one or the other; either run like hell if the danger persists, or get your stuff and then go or you'll die anyway.

And they don't waste time covering a felled tent, one which cannot possibly later be felled by snow as it's cut wide open on one side and wind scour should remove the rest, and leave a torch on top of 4 inches of this snow, not without first retrieving what they need to take with them in lethal cold.

This is why the tent has always been so critical to solving the mystery. As told it makes no sense, and that is most likely because it was nonsense all along.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 05:19:47 AM by eurocentric »
 

January 08, 2021, 01:17:56 PM
Reply #50
Offline

Monty


You sir, wrote the blurb, and I claim my £5.
 

January 08, 2021, 03:20:04 PM
Reply #51
Offline

GKM


I agree that the location of the tent when "discovered " by searchers is complete nonsense. Most people familiar with the details of the case absolutely had to realize that the hikers would have never set up camp on an exposed ridge when the forest was available a mile away. Far too many people fell for that deception.
 

January 08, 2021, 05:21:45 PM
Reply #52
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man
 

January 08, 2021, 05:35:19 PM
Reply #53

DAXXY

Guest
I agree that the location of the tent when "discovered " by searchers is complete nonsense. Most people familiar with the details of the case absolutely had to realize that the hikers would have never set up camp on an exposed ridge when the forest was available a mile away. Far too many people fell for that deception.

It was on their plan..before the ascent of Otorten.  Also they had done previous expeditions that involved periods above the treeline https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural


 

January 09, 2021, 01:06:32 AM
Reply #54
Offline

Nigel Evans


Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man


Askenadzi states that they were told that a missile was responsible.


The 2 yuris could have got the worst frostbite because they took the longest to get to the forest. This fits with a second event on the hill which finished Zinaida and Rustem with Igor joining the Yuris but giving up before the cedar.
 

January 09, 2021, 01:29:13 AM
Reply #55
Offline

Nigel Evans


I agree that the location of the tent when "discovered " by searchers is complete nonsense. Most people familiar with the details of the case absolutely had to realize that the hikers would have never set up camp on an exposed ridge when the forest was available a mile away. Far too many people fell for that deception.

It was on their plan..before the ascent of Otorten.  Also they had done previous expeditions that involved periods above the treeline https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural




The argument(s) for the tent location include deciding to "stay high" for the ascent of mt ortorten due to having failed to get through the DP pass the previous day (and fallen back and left excess weight at the labaz).They were clearly poorly equipped to be above the treeline so staying high could have made sense.
 

January 09, 2021, 01:35:41 AM
Reply #56

tekumze

Guest
I really thank this forum and with all due respect to all involved, as this is the best polygon to explore the operation of the electrical jump between brain synapses in humans.
I am very sorry that Mr WAB is no longer appearing. He plays a very important role in this whole thought game. From the very beginning, it seemed to me that he was set up as some kind of coordinator, taking care on behalf of the state that public opinion would not lean too far away from the “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 I hope everything is fine with him.
The world became small and the game of "democratic" processes could not bypass even Russia.
 "Democracy was built on slave ownership. Plato's state."
Only the ways of manipulating the masses have changed. The fact is, then, that when you feel free, you are the least free.
It is impossible to clear and conceal everything. Nine people who have already been enrolled in the system died. Relatives (some of whom are highly ranked in society) and friends and locals still ask questions. And of course journalists who know how to be really "pain in the ass" too.  And something had to be answered to this days.
"The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the environment where nobody knows what to think." Gypsy.
 There was a need to invent a story that would be as plausible as possible and would obscure the truth. And today it is the same. And for more than 60 years from tragedy, everything has been spinning in the same circle. Without anything moving anywhere.
Why do you think that for the two years, the "reopening of the Dyatlov case" with all possible experts is the 100th check for whether or not there was a snow avalanche? It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, Jeti, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.
In light of all that is known to the public so far, we are slowly leaning towards the fact that there were no alien, extraterrestrial, paranormal phenomena and also no “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 ... but merely as throughout the whole history of civilization (which will also be published in Teddy’s book), was an interhuman conflict concealed by the authorities at the time in 1959. Probably because of things screwed up by the the state system and all its apparatuses that maintain it.
 And authorities of today still has no  interests to discover all the facts that happened.

I just started this for one reason only. I look forward to the development of the debate.
And remember: You don't have to believe in things just because you want to believe in them.
 

January 09, 2021, 04:21:12 AM
Reply #57
Offline

Nigel Evans


I really thank this forum and with all due respect to all involved, as this is the best polygon to explore the operation of the electrical jump between brain synapses in humans.
I am very sorry that Mr WAB is no longer appearing. He plays a very important role in this whole thought game. From the very beginning, it seemed to me that he was set up as some kind of coordinator, taking care on behalf of the state that public opinion would not lean too far away from the “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 I hope everything is fine with him.
The world became small and the game of "democratic" processes could not bypass even Russia.
 "Democracy was built on slave ownership. Plato's state."
Only the ways of manipulating the masses have changed. The fact is, then, that when you feel free, you are the least free.
It is impossible to clear and conceal everything. Nine people who have already been enrolled in the system died. Relatives (some of whom are highly ranked in society) and friends and locals still ask questions. And of course journalists who know how to be really "pain in the ass" too.  And something had to be answered to this days.
"The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the environment where nobody knows what to think." Gypsy.
 There was a need to invent a story that would be as plausible as possible and would obscure the truth. And today it is the same. And for more than 60 years from tragedy, everything has been spinning in the same circle. Without anything moving anywhere.
Why do you think that for the two years, the "reopening of the Dyatlov case" with all possible experts is the 100th check for whether or not there was a snow avalanche? It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, Jeti, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.
In light of all that is known to the public so far, we are slowly leaning towards the fact that there were no alien, extraterrestrial, paranormal phenomena and also no “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 ... but merely as throughout the whole history of civilization (which will also be published in Teddy’s book), was an interhuman conflict concealed by the authorities at the time in 1959. Probably because of things screwed up by the the state system and all its apparatuses that maintain it.
 And authorities of today still has no  interests to discover all the facts that happened.

I just started this for one reason only. I look forward to the development of the debate.
And remember: You don't have to believe in things just because you want to believe in them.


I'd completely agree that the behaviour of the state both then and now strengthens the coverup/conspiracy theories.


However what equally weakens the same is what followed the event, the lack of a cleanup operation to remove all the evidence including the bodies, involvement of civilians in the rescue and subsequent searching and at least one mystery group of government personnel. The state's behaviour then can be explained by :-
  • icbm testing (this would have been the big priority, to suppress interest in lights crossing the sky, the editor of the Tagil Worker newspaper being severely reprimanded for reporting such an event).
  • concerns for defection (Alexander).
  • high ranking families.
  • genuinely puzzled.
However the state's recent behaviour is of course more interesting wrt weighting the evidence for a coverup.
 

January 09, 2021, 05:54:36 AM
Reply #58
Offline

Ziljoe


Well I'm at a complete loss. I've read so much over so many years I haven't a clue.

I suppose the media didn't help much with over exaggerated truths but that's how they sell their stories.

I read loose canons excellent thread on the tent. I have also just read a lot of the case files and witness statements which seem to contradict themselves.....a lot.

The tent was said to be torn in some of their statements and there are admissions that some of the searchers may have done some of the damage.

I just wonder how one would decant a frozen tent that's pinned to the ground and frozen over with snow. I could imagine trying to lift up a flattend tent, making a small incision from the outside  then putting my hand in the hole or existing tears and cutting from the underside , which would be the inside. You don't know what's under the tent so one might peal it open In case there was body's under the canvas.

They did do forensics on the tent cuts under a microscope but also state when they received the tent it was in a crumpled mess. I also find it unusual that there's a picture claiming the actual cut of the searcher that made a hole with the pic ax but none of the other holes were noted in detail. ( Ah yes comrade , sorry I only did one cut , the rest was already done by the KGB)

 I think a lot of it is just poor untrained investigating and recording as opposed to a cover up.

But I'm looking forward to learning otherwise.
 

January 09, 2021, 09:01:59 AM
Reply #59
Offline

GKM


Although I can't find it now I recall reading that the searchers drank the alcohol found in the hikers tent. But...I also read that Yuri Yudin was unable to acquire alcohol for the trip. What gives? Did the hikers have alcohol or not? And if they didn't then how the heck did the searchers find it in the tent unless it was placed there after the group died? Perhaps this means nothing but it certainly seems strange.