October 15, 2021, 08:36:11 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Why move the bodies?  (Read 5729 times)

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April 16, 2021, 06:47:58 PM
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Dona


Why move the bodies.. Why move Yuri and Georgy, what, 3 feet??

Seems like a military thing to do..Doesnt it?

Were attackers military  or Simon was   alive and well?? 

They would have been easy to find with both at the fire. Its not like they were scattered. And they are lined up i the ravine too.. Hmmm

Just seems like a military thing to do.. Any ex military  here that can answer that?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 06:58:16 PM by Dona »
 

April 16, 2021, 07:23:39 PM
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Manti


So what is used to determine the original position of the bodies ?
 

April 16, 2021, 07:27:43 PM
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Dona


What do you mean?? I dont think Yuri and Georgy put themselves over there.. side by side.. And why would 4 people lie down in a ravine? But its not a matter of where they were, but where they are..
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 08:41:52 AM by Dona »
 

April 17, 2021, 04:47:01 PM
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Dona


Yes, the military does do that.. Is that relevant here.. possibly.. I mean, I dont think they teach you  to line up the bodies in hikers school.. if  there is even such a thing..
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 04:53:18 PM by Dona »
 

April 17, 2021, 06:19:01 PM
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Dona


 I dont think they died on the slope.. The others would have had to carry them, drag them, all the way to the tree line.. They would have been dead by then.Besides, I dont think Luda  or Simon could have endured that.  So, why take them to the ravine, another 100+ feet further, at that point? They would have lined them up right there,  like Yuri and Georgy.. .
 

April 17, 2021, 07:11:52 PM
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Investigator


They broke off a lot of tree branches and likely sat or stood on them while warming themselves by the fire (due to heat loss if you stand or sit on the snow directly).  After the two Yuris died, they took most of their clothes, and may have moved them to a location that was better for that purpose.  They might also want to get near the fire, so had to move the Yuris out of the way, and also they might have wanted to take the branches the Yuris were lying on to use for the "den" or some other purpose (such as to leave a trail for Zina, Igor, and Slobodin to follow).  Another possibility is that they moved them to a spot that would allow the bodies to be used as a marker of some type (such as nearer to the "den").  You are again getting distracted by a detail that will never be known for sure and likely has an explanation that is consistent with the sole "big picture" explanation that makes sense.
 

April 17, 2021, 07:17:46 PM
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Dona


 Might have,, could have, maybe..  Till you have the RAV 4 lined up too.. Seems regimental to me..
 

April 17, 2021, 07:24:24 PM
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Dona


And it isnt  distraction..  The smallest of details matter.. Read the scene
 

April 17, 2021, 08:55:48 PM
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Manti


the sole "big picture" explanation that makes sense.

So what is this big picture explanation? That they left the tent as it became clear it's too cold / unsuitable due to whatever reason (wind, torn tent, blizzard etc.), and tried to survive the night near a campfire but failed?

I think even the "big picture" will depend on what evidence you include and exclude. One could go solely by the official case file and conclude that the authorities opened a criminal case and appointed an investigator from the police before there was any hint, according to the case files, of any crime having occurred, before the ravine 4 were found...

Is it standard procedure to involve the police when hikers go missing? (Or when you find hikers apparently with no serious injuries who just froze to death?)
 

April 19, 2021, 05:18:08 PM
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Dona


Frankly, I think the gov. got involved because  there was a nuclear physicist and others who  had  worked at nuclear plants, had gone missing.. Especially near a border..
 

April 19, 2021, 07:18:29 PM
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Investigator


the sole "big picture" explanation that makes sense.

So what is this big picture explanation? That they left the tent as it became clear it's too cold / unsuitable due to whatever reason (wind, torn tent, blizzard etc.), and tried to survive the night near a campfire but failed?

I think even the "big picture" will depend on what evidence you include and exclude. One could go solely by the official case file and conclude that the authorities opened a criminal case and appointed an investigator from the police before there was any hint, according to the case files, of any crime having occurred, before the ravine 4 were found...

Is it standard procedure to involve the police when hikers go missing? (Or when you find hikers apparently with no serious injuries who just froze to death?)

Yes, it fits perfectly into what is often called a "death by misadventure."  A reconstruction would likely tell us what happened to the tent that night, but as authorities fighting about who investigates an incident, do you realize how common that is?  And it can be related to all kinds of things, including petty squabbles, someone wants the "limelight" (for professional gain or just because he/she is narcissistic), etc.
 

April 19, 2021, 10:40:42 PM
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Zyd


Bodies are moved during emotion distress. Very common for friends and loved ones to move or alter bodies when discover. Placing them together, side by side is also common.

Also to my understanding... only Doroshenko had any indication of possibly being moved. They probable just carry or drag him to his friend so they are together. Not uncommon behavior.

Remember we already know their friends were tampering their corpse to remove their clothing. They may have flipped them or moved them a short way to access their clothing, then put them side by side and left.

I do not believe this is any indication of bad behavior. Most likely explanation is other group members moved one of them after death.
 

April 20, 2021, 08:29:07 AM
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Dona


The Rav4 had to be moved.. They didnt die in the  ravine. Especially not all lined up like that.. And Georgy had to be moved as he was burned and but not near the fire when found. Tho he could have moved himself.. I doubt that tho..

Whats odd is that they are lined up. Maybe they didnt know if they were dead or maybe still dying at the time..
 

April 20, 2021, 01:34:43 PM
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Zyd


The Rav4 had to be moved.. They didnt die in the  ravine.

Says who? This is not fact.

Especially not all lined up like that..

Quote
And Georgy had to be moved as he was burned and but not near the fire when found. Tho he could have moved himself.. I doubt that tho..


We already know Yuri's corpses were tampered by the group. I have already explain that moving your friends together after death is not suspicious.

Quote
Whats odd is that they are lined up. Maybe they didnt know if they were dead or maybe still dying at the time..

Two in the ravine are embracing. Normal behavior. One is a few inches away. Normal behavior and was probably embracing at one point too... Or was already dead. The reason they are close is likely because that is the only area of the ravine that they dropped into. They were gravely wounded there. The den was nearby, I think the 3 men were moving to get others to the den (possibly the already injured lyuda) when they stepped on a false snow ledge and fell from the top of the bank, into the ravine, onto the stream rocks they were found on.

Lyuda is a few feet away. She was leaning on a ledge, NOT LINED UP. I think she was trying to climb the ledge she was found leaning on to either get to the others who had already fallen or to get to the den.
 

April 21, 2021, 07:42:52 AM
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WAB


Bodies are moved during emotion distress. Very common for friends and loved ones to move or alter bodies when discover. Placing them together, side by side is also common.

Absolutely.

Also to my understanding... only Doroshenko had any indication of possibly being moved. They probable just carry or drag him to his friend so they are together. Not uncommon behavior.

It doesn't work that way. I don't know how well and in detail you know the topology of this place by the cedar, but in order for them to be in the place where they are shown in the picture of Eugene Serditykh, they had to be both moved. They are about 1.5 meters (5ft) from the campfire site. Most likely some of the branches that were breaking on the cedar were lying there (fallen there). And also, judging by the burns of Krivonischenko, they were near the fire and he partially came into contact with the embers of the fire. At the moment when K. appeared there, he might not have been in contact with the coals, but he was close. That is why K. moved (rather dragged) first Doroshenko and then him.

Remember we already know their friends were tampering their corpse to remove their clothing. They may have flipped them or moved them a short way to access their clothing, then put them side by side and left.

It's hard say where the clothes were removed, but they were laid out in that place already without clothes. Here you are completely correct, as I think.

I do not believe this is any indication of bad behavior. Most likely explanation is other group members moved one of them after death.

Absolutely right, I completely agree with you here.

PS. Alas, I must apologize, but for 2 or 3 weeks I will not be able answer questions if they are asked.
 

April 21, 2021, 08:15:27 AM
Reply #15
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WAB


The Rav4 had to be moved.. They didnt die in the  ravine.

Says who? This is not fact.

Especially not all lined up like that..

Quote
And Georgy had to be moved as he was burned and but not near the fire when found. Tho he could have moved himself.. I doubt that tho..


We already know Yuri's corpses were tampered by the group. I have already explain that moving your friends together after death is not suspicious.

Quote
Whats odd is that they are lined up. Maybe they didnt know if they were dead or maybe still dying at the time..

Two in the ravine are embracing. Normal behavior. One is a few inches away. Normal behavior and was probably embracing at one point too... Or was already dead. The reason they are close is likely because that is the only area of the ravine that they dropped into. They were gravely wounded there. The den was nearby, I think the 3 men were moving to get others to the den (possibly the already injured lyuda) when they stepped on a false snow ledge and fell from the top of the bank, into the ravine, onto the stream rocks they were found on.

Lyuda is a few feet away. She was leaning on a ledge, NOT LINED UP. I think she was trying to climb the ledge she was found leaning on to either get to the others who had already fallen or to get to the den.

In order not repeat myself and to highlight only the most important, I will try answer in the remaining few minutes....
1. Their "hugging" can only be normal for carrying Zolotarev on the back of Kolevatov. No fantasy of "warming up" makes any physical sense. Zolotarev's clothes are more powerful and this process is not completely realistic in the cold.
2.No injuries could have been sustained in that ravine. There is not enough energy there for such injuries. Very low banks.  Also, the "collapse of the ledge" is twice the fake.
A) there was very little snow for "collapse."
B) no "cornice" is forming there. This is contrary to the nature of such phenomena. In warm years, the niche of "sweating out" low snow from the creek is so small that not even fingernail could be broken there.
C) the creek rocks are heavily vegetated and have blanket of snow in winter, which creates good crèche. That's why nothing would break there. They could only be injured 40...50 m from this spot. There's as 6 to 8 meter (18 to 25 ft) high slope and it's real there.
D) contrary to all legends, this foursome was not at the campfire, and they were not carried from there, but to the campfire, that is, there. Otherwise, their actions represent sheer stupidity. Although it seems logical to some. But these people do not know the conditions in that place, nor do they have any experience of such travel, and they have no idea what the real cold is and how deal with it.
E) Lyuda, in her condition, was not only unable "climb" anywhere, but it was even too difficult for her breathe. I'm not sure that she was still alive 20 to 30 minutes after the injury. They brought her there and put her "as is" without considering her state of viability. Alas, these are the circumstances and the reality of the case.
F) in the condition in which the three were after the trauma, no one, except maybe Zolotarev, could move at all on his own. Of course, except for Kolevatov, who could do something, and did, as the only one among them.

 

April 21, 2021, 09:42:14 AM
Reply #16
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Dona


I think, at the end of the day, what we can glean from this is that they were still alive or they didnt know if they were or not.. So they were placed there.

Which, again, points to them being injured in the woods.. Not at the slope. I think we can go with that s a given at this point.
 

April 21, 2021, 10:28:43 AM
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Monty


I would suggest WAB is correct here. It is a challenge to suppose otherwise.
 

April 21, 2021, 10:52:05 AM
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Dona


I would suggest WAB is correct here. It is a challenge to suppose otherwise.

?? right about what??
 

April 21, 2021, 10:57:19 AM
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Monty


Points one and two. Two (A through F)
Happy to help.
 

April 21, 2021, 11:09:27 AM
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Paf


What if there was primary injuries AND deadly injuries ?
Tibo has a side-head wound, just like Slobodin and Krivo.
Could they have been hurt the same way, and then a small fall would have make Tibo's wound worst ? The other 2 are clearly dead from hypothermia -along with other factor for Krivo.
It would be even easier to explain for Dubinina (and Zolotaryov) : She would have first been getting broken ribs, -but even if unable to walk, she would have been pulled to a shelter/fire by her friends-, and then the fall. A broken rib get through her heart when they all fall in the ravine. The other would probably not have displaced her on a long distance (even 50 meter -from Wab's 6-8 meter slope- can be call a long distance when you also have to think about surviving yourself) if she was dead at first...

 

April 21, 2021, 11:29:13 AM
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Dona


What???

"D) contrary to all legends, this foursome was not at the campfire, and they were not carried from there, but to the campfire, that is, there. Otherwise, their actions represent sheer stupidity. Although it seems logical to some. But these people do not know the conditions in that place, nor do they have any experience of such travel, and they have no idea what the real cold is and how deal with it"
 

April 21, 2021, 11:30:28 AM
Reply #22
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Dona


There are  6 temple wounds to 5 people. This is not  random.


What if there was primary injuries AND deadly injuries ?
Tibo has a side-head wound, just like Slobodin and Krivo.
Could they have been hurt the same way, and then a small fall would have make Tibo's wound worst ? The other 2 are clearly dead from hypothermia -along with other factor for Krivo.
It would be even easier to explain for Dubinina (and Zolotaryov) : She would have first been getting broken ribs, -but even if unable to walk, she would have been pulled to a shelter/fire by her friends-, and then the fall. A broken rib get through her heart when they all fall in the ravine. The other would probably not have displaced her on a long distance (even 50 meter -from Wab's 6-8 meter slope- can be call a long distance when you also have to think about surviving yourself) if she was dead at first...
 

April 23, 2021, 11:45:17 AM
Reply #23
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Paf


Another theory about "moving" the den's body :

If there was any king of ceiling falling on the den's 4, they could have been moved just by the snow.
The branches (with the frozen cloth on it) stay in place, because it's too light and grippy, but the body are sliding downstream with the snow cover. They were in the den when they died, crushed ; natural factor drag them some 20 meters further.
 

April 23, 2021, 12:19:40 PM
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Dona


If the rav4 were in the snow cave,, where was Zena, Rustem and  Igor for an hour or two?
 

April 23, 2021, 01:10:02 PM
Reply #25
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Monty


My own opinion is the snow cave is over stated. Mechanically it can't be done.
 

April 23, 2021, 01:13:43 PM
Reply #26
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Dona


 

April 23, 2021, 01:27:10 PM
Reply #27
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Monty


Not enough snow.
 

April 23, 2021, 01:30:10 PM
Reply #28
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Dona


How do you know?
 

April 23, 2021, 04:05:46 PM
Reply #29
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Paf


"At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep in a ravine where the depth of the snow in places reaches 2 to 6 m thick."
(Akselrod witness testimony, https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-309-312?rbid=17743)

There was quite enough snow to build a den, no worries with that.