Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Teddy on October 29, 2018, 02:46:35 PM

Title: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on October 29, 2018, 02:46:35 PM
I have been invited to the Art Bell's radio show (http://midnightinthedesert.com/category/dave-schrader/). The live broadcast is on Nov 16, Friday 9-11 pm PDT.
The opening line of today's phone conversation was - do you think this will be 1 hour or 2 hour show. After half an hour listening to me they said - this will be more than 3 hours, lets make 2 radio shows.
I chose the date to honor Kolevatov's date of birth and I plan to publish an article based on the information Galina shared with us.
Posting this here now to ask if you want me to discuss certain points or particular aspect of the case. What do you think I should talk about? They gave me pretty much the green light to talk about whatever my heart desires. It's a given that I will announce Dyatlov Pass Forum as the only place where people can discuss the case in English.
Your input will be appreciated.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on October 29, 2018, 02:49:58 PM
BTW when I asked how did they come up with the idea of Dyatlov Pass the answer was "Another guest mentioned it as one of the strangest mysteries..."
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on October 30, 2018, 04:30:27 PM
It might be a good idea to keep close to the facts of the case.  We know that there are many speculations and it would be easy to get in to a tangle with all those speculations.  What facts there are could easily take up an hour or 2 and just mentioning the principle speculations, if thats the correct way to put it.  For instance, THE TENT, go with all the facts relating to the search and finding and then the description of the interior and the cuts etc etc. And follow that with the main theories relating to the tent. And so on I guess.  Much like we seem to be doing with the FORUM.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on October 31, 2018, 02:26:52 PM
Sticking to the facts the best I know them is a given. You know that I have never entertained a theory other than them being murdered. But I never state that this is a fact, this is my opinion. I am thinking of making a list of facts that are strange and inexplicable in this case. Since this is what keeps people hashing out on this tragedy. Help me with this. Keep in mind the majority of the audience will hear about this case first time on the show. l will start off the top of my head:


Facts that are hugely blown out of proportion and context, things that are arguably facts or that can be explained:

To be continued





Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on October 31, 2018, 03:23:28 PM
Thats great so far Teddy. Obviously the Cedar Tree and the so called Den area you will mention as well. Along with the Tent those 2 sites seem to be the basis for all that went on.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on October 31, 2018, 03:40:59 PM
If you need my comments then write in more details what exactly it is required.
I can answer in forum or an e-mail.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on October 31, 2018, 06:09:08 PM
but i still can't comprehend why Zolotaryov was wearing Lyudmila's hat and coat - they were dying together seem like it, and with similar injuries.

Huh, I wasn't aware of that. Interesting.

Can't wait to hear the show! Are you going to explain why your opinion is that they were murdered?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on October 31, 2018, 07:56:22 PM
If you need my comments then write in more details what exactly it is required.
I can answer in forum or an e-mail.

I would love to have your comments. Here or in an email, whatever is convenient for you.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on October 31, 2018, 08:28:17 PM
Thats great so far Teddy. Obviously the Cedar Tree and the so called Den area you will mention as well. Along with the Tent those 2 sites seem to be the basis for all that went on.

What about the cedar tree and the den should I mention outside the chronological timeline of discovery?
What about the cedar is important? What about the den is important?
I mean what aspects of this points make the case so controversial?

My exposé will be divided in two parts (at least).
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 08:30:53 AM

I have to keep the narration suitable for novices in DP case. When I start talking over the phone about Zolotaryov and exhumation my interlocutor kept asking What??? And she knew what the topic is about. There are people that will tune their radios not even knowing what the show is going to be about.
BTW in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident) still says "the DNA analysis did not reveal any similarity to the DNA of living relatives". No update on the second DNA analysis. If you read that this is not Zolotaryov in the grave - where do we start unraveling this case?

Here is another question that has been bugging me from the very begging - why do people try make this case more complicated thaн already is? I first thought that maybe they don't have the sources in English and this is how they compensate - by making up things, but the Russians are the same. If you listen to their TV and radio, read their forums, they go gaga same way as English speaking followers of the case. So what is it that makes people inflate mysteries and bring to the table anything that comes to mind? Some theories are obviously impossible. Why entertain them? There is some kind of void, a need that unsolved cases fill and respond to.


Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 09:02:04 AM
Are you going to explain why your opinion is that they were murdered?

Wait, what? You guys don't think they have been murdered? Will the whole world be talking if they died in an accident?
I think they have been murdered because nothing else can explain:

You guys have doubts about that? I am not saying anything new. Little can be safely deduced from the facts, but at least that somebody helped them die is out of question. Isn't it?

They were under attack in three separate instances - tent, cedar, den. The whole ordeal must have taken hours. Even if something scared them at the tent - fire ball, avalanche, Yeti, - that something had follow them to the cedar AFTER they had the time to make the fire (this takes time and they were under the impression that will make it through the night), they had the time to make the den, and then something really awful happened to whoever was left alive while they were not in the den. Kolevatov didn't sustain same fatal injuries as the other three. What do you make out of this? Isn't this a moving, following them escalating behavior of assailants? The longer they lived the worse their COD (cause of death).

Don't give me this BS about all of them being injured at the tent and dragged down. Tibo, Lyuda and Zolotaryov injuries would have incapacitated them completely at the spot. Their traumas happened where they died. This is one thing I am completely 100% sure of. I had half of Lyuda's ribs broken, flail chest and I was flat on the spot [if you fancy details (http://distal-humerus.com/)]. Nothing could make me move, totally helpless. On top of that a piece of a broken rib pierced her heart. Tibo had his skull caved in. I draw the line at the claim they have been moved from the tent all the way to the den in this condition. Or from any other location as a matter of fact.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 01, 2018, 01:04:32 PM
---------------------------
If you need my comments then write in more details what exactly it is required.
I can answer in forum or an e-mail.
====================
I would love to have your comments. Here or in an email, whatever is convenient for you.

All information capture it is impossible also, and you know it . I would like get concrete questions within concrete sections of this theme.
Constantly be present at the Internet I cannot.
You will choose that place where I can answer ( forum or e-mail).
I will answer questions which will be today, and the rest I can answer only then.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 01, 2018, 01:09:49 PM

I would love to have your comments.

Wow! There is a lot of text! I am afraid that at me time at a forum (60 minutes) will be exceeded and it will be necessary to write all in several parts …

Let's begin, say one's prayer.  bigjoke
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 01:23:14 PM
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Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 01, 2018, 01:30:35 PM
Are you going to explain why your opinion is that they were murdered?

Wait, what? You guys don't think they have been murdered? Will the whole world be talking if they died in an accident?
I think they have been murdered because nothing else can explain:
  • leaving the tent
  • trashing the tent
  • climbing up the cedar
  • dying outside the den
  • the injuries of Tibo, Lyuda and Zolotaryov

You guys have doubts about that? I am not saying anything new. Little can be safely deduced from the facts, but at least that somebody helped them die is out of question. Isn't it?

They were under attack in three separate instances - tent, cedar, den. The whole ordeal must have taken hours. Even if something scared them at the tent - fire ball, avalanche, Yeti, - that something had follow them to the cedar AFTER they had the time to make the fire (this takes time and they were under the impression that will make it through the night), they had the time to make the den, and then something really awful happened to whoever was left alive while they were not in the den. Kolevatov didn't sustain same fatal injuries as the other three. What do you make out of this? Isn't this a moving, following them escalating behavior of assailants? The longer they lived the worse their COD (cause of death).

Don't give me this BS about all of them being injured at the tent and dragged down. Tibo, Lyuda and Zolotaryov injuries would have incapacitated them completely at the spot. Their traumas happened where they died. This is one thing I am completely 100% sure of. I had half of Lyuda's ribs broken, flail chest and I was flat on the spot [if you fancy details (http://distal-humerus.com/)]. Nothing could make me move, totally helpless. On top of that a piece of a broken rib pierced her heart. Tibo had his skull caved in. I draw the line at the claim they have been moved from the tent all the way to the den in this condition. Or from any other location as a matter of fact.

I tend to agree with Teddy on this.  Everything points to it not being an accident. But everything could point to it being Murder, murder of an unusual kind. 
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 01, 2018, 01:33:38 PM

If these questions are intended for me, I can answer them is short.

part 1

  • Cedar - remains of a fire under old cedar with branches broken up to 5 m high suggesting that hikers had climbed up to look for something or to hide from someone. The clearing is facing in the direction of the tent. This means the hikers made it to the grove and lit a fire. These speaks of sound mind to me.
     

If begin with the end of this paragraph I can answer consistently so:
1.Healthy mind at them (that who was near a cedar) certainly was. At that time when they already were at a cedar. Though it is impossible to exclude the rests of a stressful condition. But they were not so essential. Volume of work done at a cedar not so big as people often speak about it not doing it in practice. There were enough 2 persons, what all it to do.
2.Cedar Clearing is made from this party because the tree trunk is inclined in the opposite side. There tree has a negative angle of slope. Look at photo of this cedar from the different parties. On a tree they climbed because other wood for a fire was not in that place where they could pass without application of skis.
3.Lifting on height of 5 m it is result of that they have got on 2,5 … 3 m + height of growth of the person + the lifted hands. Thus they could find a few wood for fire.
4.In the conditions of that night neither look (to any party) nor see they could of nothing. It because was dark (the moon should rise only after 4 o'clock AM) - on a slope it would be visible nothing. The direction on tent for them was not known. On a slope there was no illumination. Even if who that shone a small lantern, it would not be visible far. Under military tables light of a pocket lantern is visible at night about for 300 … 400 m, at good weather.
5.   A). Search and to hide it there was nothing it is not necessary. At them was nothing with itself and nothing was on a tree. B). for this purpose what to search and hide it would be necessary to have the reason (besides it was necessary to have possibility). There is no such reason for the sake of which it was necessary to do it.


  • Den - the den was well constructed for its purpose with branches at the bottom and clothes on top, but the bodies of the last four were NOT FOUND IN THE DEN but 20 m away. To me that is the strangest fact.
     

Den is there is a temporary point of a stop for injury of wounded men from a place where it happens to fire. The design den is primitive and obviously specifies that it time. Bodies have been found overdone 4…6 m from den. (As they say in one of our jokes - learn plan equipment!  grin1) It is result of that Kolevatov has not had time to perform even the first part of work on transportation of bodies to a fire place. It forces have come to an end and it has fallen that muscles have ceased to work for weariness and a cold. It has fallen, when it transferred Simeon to den which it has made only recently before this moment.


  • From the twilight zone of the investigation and why it was conducted so sloppy:
The consequence has been spent as usual it becomes. It has been spent as preliminary investigation. For this purpose that could find out there to be available criminal aspect. As criminal actions have not found, business have closed strictly under the law in target dates. I had to see as similar investigations were made and I can tell that there have been made more errors and omissions. All the matter is that city inspectors are not adapted for carrying out of such investigations. All motes in this business search and inflate from a fly to elephant  grin1(there was such fable at writer I.Krylov) because nobody can precisely tell that there has occurred. Knowledge for this purpose does not suffice even now.


15 m from the den, they found a spoon and a knife sheath.

Whence this information has appeared? The cover from a knife has been found in May on a tent installation site.

Official criminal investigation, Decision to dismiss criminal case:

The case termination has been spent strictly under the law which then be in force. I about it wrote recently in this forum. I have written in detail about the reasons of it.

“The bodies were found few meters away from the clothes found of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko - pants, sweater. All clothes had been cut when they were taken from the bodies of Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. Bodies of Thibault-Brignoles and Zolotaryov were better dressed, Dubinina’s fur jacket and hat were found on Zolotaryov, her leg was wrapped in woolen trousers that belong to Krivonischenko. Krivonischenko’s knife was found close to the bodies, it was used to cut off branches of young fir trees."
Here is a very strange fact – knife was never found in the area, only a knife sheath.

I have not understood sense of the underlined phrase.

Lead investigator Lev Ivanov could not have mistaken a sheath for a knife. The branches were cut with tool, that could not be misinterpreted, but the absence of this tool could not be explained without having somebody taken the knife from the crime scene, and that meant that the case could be closed as a “calamity or overwhelming force”.[/li][/list]

Anything surprising in that that the knife and a case for it, has been found in different places. A knife could bear in hands on all slope. It was after cut tent.


I have to keep the narration suitable for novices in DP case.

Certainly. Means it is necessary to have as more as possible accurate idea about that that happens. And not have logic and actual contradictions in the story. Anyway all actions of group about which tell should have accurate cause and effect. And as it is necessary to know that about which speak action was possible to make in those conditions which there were.


 When I start talking over the phone about Zolotaryov and exhumation my interlocutor kept asking What??? And she knew what the topic is about. There are people that will tune their radios not even knowing what the show is going to be about.
BTW in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident) still says "the DNA analysis did not reveal any similarity to the DNA of living relatives". No update on the second DNA analysis. If you read that this is not Zolotaryov in the grave - where do we start unraveling this case?

In March or April of this year at my house were Galina Sazonova and Alexander Alekseenkov. I it then have told that all this game with examination and another is necessary only for attention deduction to that that write in the newspaper «Komsomolskya Pravda». Therefore under their scenario at first examination should answer in the negative, and then (at repeated examination) - positive. As a variant there can be defects in one of these cases. Then this theme can longer keep attention of readers « Komsomolskya Pravda » which do not understand nuances of this business, but want something «such hot». These are usual games of journalists.


Here is another question that has been bugging me from the very begging - why do people try make this case more complicated that is already is? I first thought that maybe they don't have the sources in English and this is how they compensate - by making up things, but the Russians are the same.

Тeddy, please, it is not necessary to be under a delusion. In Russia a parity of those who it discusses is approximately as 8 … 12 persons to infinity. For example, in one of forums on this theme it is registered more than 15000 participants. From them writes more than 1000…1500 from which (I precisely know it) only 20 … 25 can that that to tell with worthy knowledge of case in what that one section. But only 5 … 8 persons can confirm something with the practice, though and not in a full spectrum of problems which discuss. Those who well knows the invoice of a place and all that can be connected with practice of similar activity (travel and search) in general is only 2 persons. And You know who it is.  kewl1  grin1


If you listen to their TV and radio, read their forums, they go gaga same way as English speaking followers of the case.

Exactly. I speak about it here.


 So what is it that makes people inflate mysteries and bring to the table anything that comes to mind? Some theories are obviously impossible. Why entertain them? There is some kind of void, a need that unsolved cases fill and respond to.

The answer to this question as it seems to me, is obvious: everyone wants to feel that it not worse Sherlock Holmes understands any difficult and confused business. And for this purpose it is not obligatory to have education and practice. There is enough only of what to think up something on puzzling.

The end path N1.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 01, 2018, 01:37:43 PM
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Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 01, 2018, 01:39:21 PM
Also, because we now live in the higher technology era with DNA and all the other modern wonders it may be that at some time in the near future a case could be made to have the closed case reopened as a criminal investigation.  And that would also mean getting people in positions of influence interested, i e, Government people. And if there was nothing to hide they would surely agree  !  ?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 01, 2018, 02:11:11 PM
------------------------
Are you going to explain why your opinion is that they were murdered?
===================
Wait, what? You guys don't think they have been murdered? Will the whole world be talking if they died in an accident?

Will be. It is necessary to have only not clear history and to publicize or promote (PR!) this case. Also it is not necessary to understand business very much deep into. Otherwise it will very soon leave in discussion of the serious scientific phenomena in which many to understand have no desire, and often and have no sufficient preparation. Simply instead of a detective story the boring science which is interesting to nobody turns out.
Here a typical example: the antiscience-fiction novel of Rakhitin (its present surname Rjabuhin) about spies. At it there so much different mistakes (amateurish errors) that further read 3 pages it is already impossible. I tell it about those who understands that, about what he writes.
When he (in 2010) has appeared on one of thematic forums (http://pereval1959.forum24.ru  - now this forum has moved on other platform almost lost-free information - https://pereval1959.kamrbb.ru/ ) under nick as «Yellow wolf», I to it still then specified in many fantastic errors (aircraft, application Skyhook - I developed analogue of this device, traficability on area of events, searches of tent and navigation, and the most important thing - logic and the expediency of events), in the answer I was received by some sessions of barefaced rudeness and all. All mistakes remained in all subsequent editions and are recently translated into German. Reliability of the information presented there to aspire to zero though probably readers like novels about spies only.

I think they have been murdered because nothing else can explain:

“We" are there is who? Give I will try to make it from my positions? wink1

  • leaving the tent

External influence to mentality from external (the natural!) factor.

  • trashing the tent

It is too most, but as a result of accumulation of dose of influence to brain above a critical limit of shipping.

  • climbing up the cedar

This unique place where they could find wood for fire, within area of actions where they could pass without presence of skis.

  • dying outside the den

I already explained it earlier. The person has an expense of forces (especially in extreme conditions) which is not equal to infinity. The cold and loading influence a tone of muscles very strongly, therefore through certain time of a muscle cease to work. And it is all the same when it has occurred, on distance of 1…5 metrs from a point where it is necessary to come, or some kilometrs

  • the injuries of Tibo, Lyuda and Zolotaryov

Read article https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing  - I there all in detail and has carefully explained from the point of view of biomechanics and district, a climate and a survival in extreme conditions of low temperatures. (!) Article is written in Russian. (!)

You guys have doubts about that? I am not saying anything new. Little can be safely deduced from the facts, but at least that somebody helped them die is out of question. Isn't it?

It is not present not so. It is attempt by misunderstanding of an essence of the matter (the essence of the matter here is very difficult and confused) to explain that that the first has come to mind, without knowing weight of additional conditions and the facts (let small, but they are important).
If all it to do on a place in the winter (providing for itself the necessary safety of actions!!!) that it is possible to be convinced easily of that that I speak.

They were under attack in three separate instances - tent, cedar, den.

Aha. 3 different meteorites have fallen to them in different places and is absolutely exact there where it was necessary …  grin1 It is Joke. There all the matter is that having left tent they had no chances to survive in such conditions and at such clothes as there was it at them.

The whole ordeal must have taken hours.

So it and … Only it was necessary to understand that time of active movement and time when they have already frozen (have died), these are different intervals of time. Approximately 1 to 5. Some people had complications with reception of wounds, but also the clothes at them were different and they had a different intensity of work at movement. From here it is and difference of survival time.

Even if something scared them at the tent - fire ball, avalanche, Yeti, - that something had follow them to the cedar AFTER they had the time to make the fire (this takes time and they were under the impression that will make it through the night),

What for to represent all it so it is difficult? Enough that deficiency of heat at settlement weather and their clothes makes approximately 350 … 400 J, and metabolic heat in rest only 50 … 70 J. And that a demanded thermal protection of clothes was nearby 4,5…5 CLO, and at many it made of them only 1. 1,5 CLO upon. Thus the question of survival was simply a matter of time when they are in such condition.
Fire could give the chance to survive it but only if it was much more больший on intensity. If they have guessed to set fire to a cedar entirely who that of them (it is hardly for all) could have a chance to wait mornings and to find tent. But it too not the fact because it was not present.

they had the time to make the den, and then something really awful happened to whoever was left alive while they were not in the den.

They had that was earlier. There was available a cold without sufficient protection against it.

Kolevatov didn't sustain same fatal injuries as the other three.

Alexander Kolevatova did not have any serious traumas. The biggest that was is a posthumous trauma from a tip of an avalanche probe by search.
Still he had signs of decomposition of tissue at defrosting of a dead body.
And what was still? If I something have forgotten, prompt, please.


What do you make out of this? Isn't this a moving, following them escalating behavior of assailants?

And where though what that signs of "attacking"? They were guided by what intentions? What for all it was necessary for them?

*******************************
End path 2.
Break. Our time is 00.10 AM
If I can return quickly, I will continue.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on November 01, 2018, 05:45:41 PM
Wait, what? You guys don't think they have been murdered? Will the whole world be talking if they died in an accident?

Well, there are a bunch of theories, some of them involve avalanche, stove, ball lightning, infrasound, poison. Not everyone thinks it had to be murder.

My biggest problem with the murder theories is that there is no evidence anyone else was on the mountain that night, and there's no evidence for motive. And I hate going down the rabbit hole of speculation. People can spin the wildest conspiracy theories. I'm also referring to other unsolved or controversial cases.


I think they have been murdered because nothing else can explain:
leaving the tent
trashing the tent
climbing up the cedar
dying outside the den
the injuries of Tibo, Lyuda and Zolotaryov


If it's really the case that nothing else can explain the above, you have a point. I don't know why they left the tent. There doesn't seem to be any definitive evidence one way or another. It is interesting that it appears they walked in single file down the mountain, poorly dressed, after apparently cutting their way out of the tent. That is odd.

I don't know about the trashed tent. Was it supposed to be neatly arranged? Could a minor avalanche have been the cause? Maybe they were just tired and said to hell with it that night? Maybe they were rebelling against Igor's demands.

The cedar tree can be explained. I don't know about the den or the ravine injuries, but they could have triggered an avalanche in the ravine.

You could be right, but I'm not sure the evidence rules out accidental death.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 06:28:50 PM
You could be right, but I'm not sure the evidence rules out accidental death.

What would that accident be? Give me precise COD (cause of death) to argue with.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 01, 2018, 08:43:43 PM
Quote
The tent had been cut open from within.

Oh boy, do I have have issues with this one.   shock1

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=205.0
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 09:07:19 PM
Quote
The tent had been cut open from within.

Oh boy, do I have have issues with this one.   shock1

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=205.0

How would you resume the whole board in one paragraph for the broadcast, no drawings?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 01, 2018, 09:09:27 PM
Say what?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
Say what?

This conversation is what I can say on the radio. What do you want me to say?  One paragraph.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 09:17:33 PM
For example: the official investigation concludes that the tent is cut form within but that contradicts with...
I can use it in the "shady investigation" part.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 01, 2018, 09:19:53 PM
I have a lot on my mind right now, so if you want to give me the essence of the board I would appreciated. The audience hears about the tent for first time and they have no visuals in front of them. They have no idea what the tent looks like when was found.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 05:15:38 AM
While I have time size a pair of clocks, I will lay to write that that was earlier. I do`t know how many now will be in time …

Path 3


The longer they lived the worse their COD (cause of death).

Don't give me this BS about all of them being injured at the tent and dragged down.

About whom there is a conversation? Who is BS?

Tibo, Lyuda and Zolotaryov injuries would have incapacitated them completely at the spot. Their traumas happened where they died.

As spoke in one our film: «No. It not is at all the fact. It is more than the fact, it was actually present! [Нет. Это не факт. Это больше чем факт. Так оно и было на самом деле!- in Russian]» (c).  grin1
In article which has specified, is places in which they could be traumatised at the highest probability of it are designated.
You can read in Russian a little, look, please, at least even only at pictures. grin1

This is one thing I am completely 100% sure of. I had half of Lyuda's ribs broken, flail chest and I was flat on the spot [if you fancy details (http://distal-humerus.com/)]. Nothing could make me move, totally helpless. On top of that a piece of a broken rib pierced her heart.

You are right 100 %. Here even the doubt cannot arise that at such wounds it could even lie motionlessly without causing to herself a pain. Even only that she should breathe. Splinter penetrated in heart it already practically death.
It is necessary to notice only that those who was a number not could precisely the nobility its condition of an organism. They considered that it is without consciousness presence. The x-ray device at them was not, therefore they could not know how many and where at it that at it an organism grave condition, it was obvious is broken edges, but.


Tibo had his skull caved in.

It is possible to explain this case most easily. There all is obvious from the point of view of biomechanics of a head injury. In article are in detail written parametres of mechanics of this wound and resulted.
By the way, he has assimilated this trauma not there where it have found, and above on a slope. On the scheme of the chief searches Maslennikov the small lamp 3 stone ridges found in area is drawn. This most probable place where it has occurred. There are many "necessary" stones for such wound and a small lamp so is simple (in their position) do not lose and do not throw.

I draw the line at the claim they have been moved from the tent all the way to the den in this condition. Or from any other location as a matter of fact.

If analyze their possibilities of transportation of wounded men and character of traumas it turns out that everything, except one could be wounded only there where them have found.
One person three or more man number of people could transport on distance no more than 1 km for 1 or 1,5 hours. Even if they did not have any special relocators, including a stretcher. In those conditions which can be reconstructed for February, 01st or 02 1959.
Figures of distance and time I take from own practice, and as from practice work of rescue services of Kola peninsula, Polar Ural Mountains and Sayan mountains.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 05:23:46 AM
--------------------------
You could be right, but I'm not sure the evidence rules out accidental death.
====================
What would that accident be? Give me precise COD (cause of death) to argue with.

What means "Give me precise COD (cause of death)" (c)? How you will define "accuracy"?
I will not ask as it is possible to broadcast this "result of definition" for radio-listeners.
To prove not probably anything and to anybody in this history. Especially if the opponent clings to any trifles.
I already spoke: even if in ХХХХ to year will occur (God forbid, certainly!!) the similar history when there will be a group of 9 persons, on a calendar will be on February, 01st or 02, all will occur on that place and etc. That always will be who the one who will tell that it is not correct. For example, a surname of the head of group not Woodpeckers …. Or group is not from UPI, and from UrFU, though it is same, only different names.
And you speak about accuracy ….
For advancement of the thoughts it is necessary operate not with words about accuracy, and ideas and algorithms.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 05:29:07 AM
Quote
The tent had been cut open from within.

Oh boy, do I have have issues with this one.   shock1

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=205.0

How much I have understood it is a question about here this picture?

https://image.ibb.co/jyvsdJ/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3.jpg

But you above have also here such picture:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-02.jpg 

In such kind the tent has been transferred to examination.
The question has been asked to the expert: "Whence the tent - outside or from within has been cut?"
The answer has been given in the conclusion from examination. About the rest the question has not been set, therefore on it and has not been told anything
I do not know whence that picture which is placed on http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=205.0  has been received. But in criminal case it has here such appearance:.
 
(https://b.radikal.ru/b07/1811/23/6e7d2736fb74t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b07/1811/23/6e7d2736fb74.jpg)

And from this it is necessary to understand that cuts № 2 and № 3, it is one cut which passes through an absent piece of a roof of tent. The length of this cut (in that case) turns out nearby 1,5 … 1,8 metr (5…6 ft). Through such cut it was possible to get out even together simultaneously.
As the participant of searches Michael Sharavin has told, they could pull out these pieces of a roof of tent when raked snow by the use of ice axe.
What questions remained about cuts on a tent roof?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 05:32:36 AM
For example: the official investigation concludes that the tent is cut form within but that contradicts with...
I can use it in the "shady investigation" part.

This statement does not contradict anything. Examination of cuts of a cotton fabric has history from a XIX-th century, therefore to the middle of the XX-th century examination already could tell precisely that the cut has been made outside or from within. The technique of definition of it has already been well fulfilled.
It is possible to doubt about everything. For example that all it is written by wrong first letter.  explode1
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 05:38:27 AM
I have a lot on my mind right now, so if you want to give me the essence of the board I would appreciated. The audience hears about the tent for first time and they have no visuals in front of them. They have no idea what the tent looks like when was found.

For example, it is necessary to try to describe its kind before to it participants of search have come. Here an example, of what be look it could on 99 %
 
(https://d.radikal.ru/d40/1811/d4/46e6930f2648t.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d40/1811/d4/46e6930f2648.jpg)

It is our experimental tents in February 2014. It had completely corresponding sizes and has been established in the same way as how it have found by Boris Slobtsov and Michael Sharavin on February, 26th 1959. Its is kind in a day after we have established it.
All can be compared it to a photo which has been made on February, 28th 1959

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-009.jpg

And here is that was with our tent through 2 … 3 weeks after we therefrom have left.
 
(https://c.radikal.ru/c07/1811/b4/8c58a19bfe41t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c07/1811/b4/8c58a19bfe41.png)

Unfortunately we, therefore photographed not a shooting foreshortening not absolutely the same
Compare to that was on February, 28th 1959. I speak about a snowdrift at an input in tent. It is ahead where the note for those who will look at it is attached after we will leave therefrom. It is a good illustration of aerodynamics of snow drifts of semifixed objects.
If you can describe by the own words those pictures which I here have placed it will be the fullest representation about tent for listeners of this show.
To it will be necessary to add only that Boris Slobtsov and Michael Sharavin by ice axe have damaged a part of a roof of tent.

Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 02, 2018, 05:49:49 AM
I removed the shaded areas in this picture because they are fundamentally irrelevant regarding 'cuts made from the inside'.

Fact of the day,. The ONLY cuts EVER to have been identified as having been made from the inside are clearly labeled 1, 2, and 3.  Anything else is pure speculation!

(https://image.ibb.co/jyvsdJ/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3.jpg)
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 06:07:44 AM
I removed the shaded areas in this picture because they are fundamentally irrelevant regarding 'cuts made from the inside'.

Fact of the day,. The ONLY cuts EVER to have been identified as having been made from the inside are clearly labeled 1, 2, and 3.  Anything else is pure speculation!

(https://image.ibb.co/jyvsdJ/0_a5932_37268c21_XL3.jpg)

No. Speaking in images: ”You have splashed out the child together with dirty water from bathtub” (c)
The cut № 3 is continuation of a cut №2. It is necessary to look not at a picture which is drawn again and corrected a photoshop, and on that which has been included in examination. That that this continuation has been declared on one of conferences by the same expert as Tchurkin, only by the modern. According with his experience in criminalistics.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 02, 2018, 06:14:12 AM
Yes, but THAT is called speculation. 

Cuts 2 and 3 arc is completely opposite directions for one thing.  Secondly, there is absolutely NOTHING within the original case files regarding to 'cuts 2 and 3 are parts of the same cut'........   kinda the reason they don't share the same number.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 02, 2018, 12:03:16 PM
I appear only for one moment grin1

Yes, but THAT is called speculation.


I do not agree. You do conclusions of small quantity of not clear information. Now I will not be in time, but if insist, I can find a picture where in a photo even deformed (suspended in a room) tents it is possible to track a cut trajectory at left - to right (on plane of the photo).

Cuts 2 and 3 arc is completely opposite directions for one thing. 

I should send (once again) you to that scheme which is included in the original of examination, instead of to use copying and changes. It is reminds gamble a little too.

Secondly, there is absolutely NOTHING within the original case files regarding to 'cuts 2 and 3 are parts of the same cut'........   kinda the reason they don't share the same number.

In initial file there was no question on, whether is the cut № 3 continuation of a cut №2. Therefore on this question there is no answer. The expert should answer strictly only those questions which to it have set. The rest is not its duty and he should not answer these questions. This is strict position in the law.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 02, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
Translation

There is zero evidence that cut 3 is a continuation of cut 2 and visa-versa.  Folks that are married to the Murder conclusion should be running rampant with this knowledge. 
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 02, 2018, 01:34:38 PM
I think people reading all this SPECULATION will be running rampant.  Teddy needs some simple easy to understand dialogue for the show. Not too much to ask surely. I think she can probably get through it on her own account. WAB is making out a case but its still lots of SPECULATION.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on November 02, 2018, 02:06:15 PM
Speaking in images: ”You have splashed out the child together with dirty water from bathtub” (c)

 lol2

That's a fantastic rephrasing of a common English metaphor! Sounds like something Venom (comic book character) would say.

I don't know what to think of the tent cuts anymore. Maybe they were cut for reasons other than exiting the tent?

Do you know whether there is evidence the entrance to the tent was unbuttoned or not when it was found?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 02, 2018, 02:31:16 PM
Do you know whether there is evidence the entrance to the tent was unbuttoned or not when it was found?

The only reliable fact is that the tent had buttons, but special ones - wooden toggles (клеванты).
All other things - was the tent fastened or not etc. are just speculations.
Read here → (https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#tent)
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 02, 2018, 02:51:11 PM
Worst investigation.....    ever
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 02, 2018, 02:57:30 PM
Worst investigation.....    ever

That's about the only thing everybody agrees with.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on November 02, 2018, 04:00:22 PM
Worst investigation.....    ever

You haven't listened to enough true crime podcasts, then. There are some extenuating circumstances here. The search party didn't know to treat the tent scene like an investigation. The location was remote in the middle of winter. And then you have higher ups closing the investigation down.

I would say the JonBenet Ramsey case was handled worse, at least at the beginning.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 02, 2018, 05:36:27 PM
I would say the JonBenet Ramsey case was handled worse, at least at the beginning.

You have no idea how many times have I drawn a parallel to JonBenet Ramsey case. And this case is contemporary, taking place in the US.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 08:15:19 AM
Best of luck with the show, i'll have to miss it as it starts at 4am GMT. Unless it's recorded?

Regarding your facts, i'd offer the following corrections (in red) :-
    The tent had been cut open from within.
    Nothing was stolen from the tent - money, food, alcohol, clothes, shoes, backpacks​, gear, all this would have been very useful and wasn't cheap and accessible at the time.
    ​The two girls died virgin.
    No alcohol was found in any of the deceased.
    There were no indications of other people nearby on Kholat Syakhl apart from the nine hikers.
    No traces of avalanche were apparent or reported in the area.
    Footprints from the camp showed that all group members left the tent of their own accord, on foot, in an orderly way, nobody was running, limping, stumbling, dragged or falling on their way down the slope.
    ​Forensic pathologist​ ​Dr Vozrozhdenny stated that the fatal injuries of three ​of the ​bodies could not have been caused by another human being, "because the force of the blows had been too strong and no soft tissue had been damaged".
    ​Some clothes showed radioactive contamination that could not be attributed to an environmental exposure. We don't know that. A completely plausible theory is that they picked up contamination from exploring disused mines. Yudin was a geologist?
    Hikers were wearing the clothes from other ​members of the group. This is normal if presume the latter were dead already, but i still can't comprehend why Zolotaryov was wearing Lyudmila's hat and coat - they were dying together seem like it, and with similar injuries.Because the pathologist said she died quickly (max 10mins) and Semyon took longer to die (say 30mins), so her clothing was given to Semyon, simple.

Facts that are hugely blown out of proportion and context, things that are arguably facts or that can be explained:

    Frame №17 from Tibo camera
    Frame №34 from Krivo camera
    Fire balls in the sky reported in February and March 1959
    Where the tent was pitched (did they drift or get lost) Or was it intentional as suggested by Igor's last entry in the diary
    Lyuda's missing tongue
    Missing eyes on Lyuda and Zolotaryov   
    Orange skin reported at the funerals in March 1959 Imo this skin colour and Yuri D's foaming cheek are quite significant and reinforced by Chivruay. 
    More bodies reported at the Ivdel morgue
    Bodies reported being seen from the search helicopters lying around the tent
    Pilots of search helicopters being sabotaged and killed in the following years


Also i'd add :-

Ivanov and his superior state that after the discovery of the last bodies in May the order came to move all evidence to a secret archive and makeup a cover story and create an official report to support it. I think this fact flatly rules out a normal civilian murder case.
For me Ivanov's use of the term "fire orbs" is hugely significant. Q. Where did an experienced criminal investigator and barrister get this from, just a wild guess? A. No, from the confiscated evidence - perhaps the missing frames in Semyon's camera.
you don't mention that Semyon's camera frames can be interpreted as night shots of self illuminating aerial objects one of which is a perfect fit for the fireball reports (there are other theories such as water damage of course)











Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 03, 2018, 08:24:34 AM
Best of luck with the show, i'll have to miss it as it starts at 4am GMT. Unless it's recorded?

Thanks. It is live broadcast but it will be recorded, I will post a link for the podcast afterwards.

    Hikers were wearing the clothes from other ​members of the group. This is normal if presume the latter were dead already, but i still can't comprehend why Zolotaryov was wearing Lyudmila's hat and coat - they were dying together seem like it, and with similar injuries.Because the pathologist said she died quickly (max 10mins) and Semyon took longer to die (say 30mins), so her clothing was given to Semyon, simple.

I didn't state correctly what is bothering me - the pose Dubinina was found in doesn't suggest she was undressed post mortem as in the case of Doroshenko and Krivonischenko.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 09:01:08 AM
Imo they were rescued from the remains of the den and placed in a row. All oriented in the same direction. Subsequently the force of the meltwater pushed her over the small drop (which probably was filled by snow at the event).
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 03, 2018, 09:06:02 AM
Imo they were rescued from the remains of the den and placed in a row. All oriented in the same direction. Subsequently the force of the meltwater pushed her over the small drop (which probably was filled by snow at the event).

I thought about that but Dubinina is the one body that can not wash down and rest the way she was found. It's impossible. I even rolled in a creak to try it.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 09:10:06 AM
Next time you're in the creek get someone to aim a firehouse at you.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 03, 2018, 09:11:56 AM
Her body could have been disturbed by the digging. I don't see her position as significant.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 03, 2018, 09:13:06 AM
Next time you're in the creek get someone to aim a firehouse at you.

 grin1
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 03, 2018, 09:22:35 AM
Her body could have been disturbed by the digging. I don't see her position as significant.

That's the problem with this case. Unless 12 jurors agree on something and even then it's arbitrary. In Russia the decision is made by judges, not jurors. We will never agree on anything. i am not saying it because I think I ma right and you are wrong, but because I don't even know what "solving a case" means anymore.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 11:46:18 AM
Translation

There is zero evidence that cut 3 is a continuation of cut 2 and visa-versa. 

Specification of this transfer by transfer to by method from transfer back;
In this business there are no absolute proofs. It is possible to carp even at incorrectly established comma. Having cleaned absent pieces of tent, you do not see communication.
On the other hand reasoning it is possible to tell so:
1.If people have got out of tent, it is as?
2.Examination has established that all cut has been executed from within.
Whereas to explain, what they were on the street, if there are no signs that things located about an input are damaged? It would be obligatory. 9 persons could attack never thin things of type of an oven or buckets. As the alternative it can be offered only telekinesis.
Or you want to reject examination and to establish the own facts?


Folks that are married to the Murder conclusion should be running rampant with this knowledge.

What is this phrase and what does she think of a case with Dyatlov group can mean?

Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 11:47:17 AM
I think people reading all this SPECULATION will be running rampant.  Teddy needs some simple easy to understand dialogue for the show. Not too much to ask surely. I think she can probably get through it on her own account. WAB is making out a case but its still lots of SPECULATION.

What it is consists In … ?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 11:53:03 AM
Speaking in images: ”You have splashed out the child together with dirty water from bathtub” (c)
==========================
 lol2

That's a fantastic rephrasing of a common English metaphor! Sounds like something Venom (comic book character) would say.

I do not know how much it is English phrase (though I at all do not exclude that it is) but I read it at Russian writers of a XIX-th century. Lev Tolstoi contemporaries.

I don't know what to think of the tent cuts anymore. Maybe they were cut for reasons other than exiting the tent?

Tent cutting it is equivalent to destruction of a unique place where they to survive in those conditions. What can be other case, except only heaviest?

Do you know whether there is evidence the entrance to the tent was unbuttoned or not when it was found?

The input from tent has not been clasped. There the big rag which it was possible to understand and enter into tent has been sewn. The rag closed automatically input and prevened cold air.
I know it both from own practice, and from Peter Bartolomey (it traveled with this tent), Vladislav Karelin and Yury Yudin. Yudin traveled with the same tent (not with this) earlier.
About it at various times to me spoke Boris Slobtsov and Michael Sharavin. They have found tent the first. In detail our conversation with Boris Slobtsov in Russian was on June, 01st 2006 and there is on a site http://perevaldyatlova.narod.ru/beseda_1.html   in there he about it speaks unequivocally.
I do not understand the term of "proof" which use at this forum. For me proofs it is that uses court.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 11:56:00 AM
Do you know whether there is evidence the entrance to the tent was unbuttoned or not when it was found?
===========================
The only reliable fact is that the tent had buttons, but special ones - wooden toggles (клеванты).
All other things - was the tent fastened or not etc. are just speculations.
Read here → (https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#tent)

You have interesting method to find "proof". You do not work with witnesses of the first stage, do not have practice of application of equipment of that time, and considers that if where that that that is written, it is always correct. At us speak so: "On a fence and not such happens it is written. But all the same deceive. You open a gate, and see there is fire wood only!?" (c)  grin1
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 11:58:26 AM
Worst investigation.....    ever
========================
That's about the only thing everybody agrees with.

Not all. I am not agree for it categorically. For this purpose what to define that is good, and that is bad, it is necessary to compare one and another. I observed is a little put on similar cases. This business is one of the best. The problem consists that inspectors which work in a city at all do not know and are not adapted, as it is necessary to work in such cases. Complications appear and that such affairs very big rarity, therefore experience of inspectors cannot collect and be systematised. In all guidebooks for inspectors there are no special sections to which it is written as it is necessary to study such cases.
Separately it is necessary to tell that in the opposite direction it is always easier to time criticise, than all it make correctly beforehand.
In case there are many defects and admissions of the necessary information. But it is admissions for researchers now, instead of for inspectors when they searched only for one: whether there is there a criminal aspect. And if it have not found, means its modern researchers can think up. As it is in the majority of such discussions. Though really there are no signs of a crime. These signs too think out. If in this case to understand in details and with profound knowledge all turns out quite naturally. Well and if who that wants to write the scenario for a criminal film or a horror film it can make any, only if it has a talent.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 11:59:41 AM
You haven't listened to enough true crime podcasts, then. There are some extenuating circumstances here. The search party didn't know to treat the tent scene like an investigation. The location was remote in the middle of winter. And then you have higher ups closing the investigation down.

Here it too should be considered. You have noted it perfectly.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 12:16:01 PM
I have some specifications:

Best of luck with the show, i'll have to miss it as it starts at 4am GMT. Unless it's recorded?

Regarding your facts, i'd offer the following corrections (in red) :-
    The tent had been cut open from within.
    Nothing was stolen from the tent - money, food, alcohol, clothes, shoes, backpacks​, gear, all this would have been very useful and wasn't cheap and accessible at the time.
    ​The two girls died virgin.
    No alcohol was found in any of the deceased.
    There were no indications of other people nearby on Kholat Syakhl apart from the nine hikers.
    No traces of avalanche were apparent or reported in the area.
    Footprints from the camp showed that all group members left the tent of their own accord, on foot, in an orderly way, nobody was running, limping, stumbling, dragged or falling on their way down the slope.
    ​Forensic pathologist​ ​Dr Vozrozhdenny stated that the fatal injuries of three ​of the ​bodies could not have been caused by another human being, "because the force of the blows had been too strong and no soft tissue had been damaged".
*************************************

    ​Some clothes showed radioactive contamination that could not be attributed to an environmental exposure. We don't know that. A completely plausible theory is that they picked up contamination from exploring disused mines. Yudin was a geologist?[/color]

No. It not a plausible explanation. Yudin studied on economic branch of university UPI.
It is the most probable that contamination having radiation was a soil part on which secondary deposits from tests of the nuclear weapon in 1958 on island Novaya Zemlya dropped out. That year many tests in atmosphere have been spent and there was a carrying over to atmosphere in the form of a dust and a deposit in the form of a rain. Radiation background was very small. The maximum background was approximately 9900 disintegrations in a minute, from the area of 150 sq. sm that is only 166 Bq (Becquerel). Or it is ~ 66 Bq on 1 sq. sm. For example, 1,3 kg of bananas on isotope K40 have such activity.
Contamination had more likely alluvial character. That is small fragments of radioactive deposits were washed off in a stream and this soil намывалась on separate fragments of clothes. Many other fragments of clothes had no background excess above than it there was a natural background.
It is not excluded (but it is improbable) and that could bring it not to clothes Yury Krivonishchenko (it worked at industrial complex "Majak" near Chelyabinsk when there for 1 year prior to the beginning of its work there was a large nuclear failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster ) or Alexander Kolevatov (he studied on branch of nuclear physics and technics UPI and did lab work with presence radioactive materials).



    Hikers were wearing the clothes from other ​members of the group. This is normal if presume the latter were dead already, but i still can't comprehend why Zolotaryov was wearing Lyudmila's hat and coat - they were dying together seem like it, and with similar injuries.Because the pathologist said she died quickly (max 10mins) and Semyon took longer to die (say 30mins), so her clothing was given to Semyon, simple.

Facts that are hugely blown out of proportion and context, things that are arguably facts or that can be explained:

    Frame №17 from Tibo camera
    Frame №34 from Krivo camera
    Fire balls in the sky reported in February and March 1959
    Where the tent was pitched (did they drift or get lost) Or was it intentional as suggested by Igor's last entry in the diary
    Lyuda's missing tongue
    Missing eyes on Lyuda and Zolotaryov   

**********************

    Orange skin reported at the funerals in March 1959 Imo this skin colour and Yuri D's foaming cheek are quite significant and reinforced by Chivruay.  [/color]

I have not understood. What exactly proves to be true with Chivruey?

    More bodies reported at the Ivdel morgue

It is hearings which were informed by Pelagea Solter at the age of 90 years. They anything, except its words do not prove to be true. Wrong messages have been found in conversations with it more many.

    Bodies reported being seen from the search helicopters lying around the tent

It too gossips which have appeared because of the journalist. Because of that that he has not correctly understood pilot Karpushin. The body on a slope (among stones) cannot be seen during flight for 30 kilometres from hill. You read article oneself? You have understood all in it very well?
Besides, participants of searches did not see on a slope of any body, and almost all bodies have been completely covered by snow.


    Pilots of search helicopters being sabotaged and killed in the following years[/i]

It in general set of gossips which are scattered in a dust as soon as you start to analyze all these failures in detail.

Also i'd add :-

Ivanov and his superior state that after the discovery of the last bodies in May the order came to move all evidence to a secret archive and makeup a cover story and create an official report to support it. I think this fact flatly rules out a normal civilian murder case.

It is wrong. Case never no was confidential, because the decision was not made what to make its confidential.
Case have simply put in confidential archive that the small quantity of people could read it. Because the consequence could not give exact the answer to a question: that there is a reason of the beginning of this case. If on this question there is no answer in 60 years after why they should be cleverer or possess the big knowledge then?


For me Ivanov's use of the term "fire orbs" is hugely significant. Q. Where did an experienced criminal investigator and barrister get this from, just a wild guess? A. No, from the confiscated evidence - perhaps the missing frames in Semyon's camera.
you don't mention that Semyon's camera frames can be interpreted as night shots of self illuminating aerial objects one of which is a perfect fit for the fireball reports (there are other theories such as water damage of course)
[/color]

The film of Simeon's camera could not remain. Because its camera was in water long time. If who that of readers of a forum was engaged in a chemical photo (shooting on a film and chemical processing) should know that:
1.Emulsion of films get sodden it will be washed off by water
2.Even if it not so transportation and processing of this film will be almost impossible because it слипнется on air and it will be impossible to develop without fatal damage.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 12:23:08 PM
Imo they were rescued from the remains of the den and placed in a row. All oriented in the same direction. Subsequently the force of the meltwater pushed her over the small drop (which probably was filled by snow at the event).

To search for that is ostensibly latent in confidential archive in a current of 60 years, it is search for a black cat in a dark room when it there is not present.
It «Fiery spheres» all not so is difficult. First it is necessary to find authentic certificates on 100 %. It is not that there is in conversations, and that there are judicial indications. That is people have sworn before the inspector that they answer in criminal court. Such cases during travel of Dyatlov group and searches was two: on February, 17th and on March, 31st. If compare time on which witnesses it coincides with accuracy + / - 15 … 30 minutes with in the meantime in which from rocket base "Baikonur" rockets R-7 were started specify. It was possible to see display of such starts on very big distance because these rockets fly up on height about 200 km (~ 150 miles). Certainly it can be seen only at good weather. On February, 17th and 31марта there was a cloudless weather during dark time. Therefore travellers, military and other people it saw and have described it in papers of a consequence with an oath about responsibility. About other days there were only conversations of 1 or 2 persons and weather was such what to see that that it was impossible. All starts of rockets for 1959 can be found in the Internet on such sites.
In 2009 I have brought and Karelin (which «the Fiery sphere» 1959 saw on February, 17th such and has written it in judicial indications) has shown to the participant of searches video and a photo of space shots of companion "Union". He has told that it is very similar that they then saw. In 2011 there was a start into a polar orbit (such starts very rare and to 1975 were not spent) which trajectory passed over Ekaterinburg (Sverdlovsk), it too was similar to their memoirs. Here is picture of start on May, 4th, 2011.

(https://b.radikal.ru/b35/1811/88/dbb7ea0a1c48t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b35/1811/88/dbb7ea0a1c48.jpg)


In this picture rocket passes on distance ~ 500 km and at height of ~70…80 km above city of Ekaterinburg (Sverdlovsk).
On February, 17th they saw the same picture on distance more than 1800 km and at height about 200 km from them. Therefore its kind was a little smaller, for example such.

(https://b.radikal.ru/b34/1811/12/4f1374f99a90t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b34/1811/12/4f1374f99a90.jpg)

That's all that it is possible to tell about "Fiery spheres". If consider that "Fiery spheres" and a Fireball this same it will be wrong.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 06, 2018, 12:27:02 PM
In last series of the text I have not resulted an initial picture when we have established a tent comprehensive layout. I rectify the error.

Tent at first time right after installations:

(https://b.radikal.ru/b37/1811/f0/86ae3292512at.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b37/1811/f0/86ae3292512a.jpg)

By results of this discussion I have understood that at the majority of those who it furiously discusses representation about a conversation subject reminds Map animation by Simon Skeptic.
That such installation has been made it remarkably. But I cannot look at it as on specification of that has occurred. There are not enough details which are the main things and define a course of events. I see that I saw on a place on each moment of moving. I see in fine details. If I was able to do it a virtual picture much could clear up without superfluous discussion. But I do not have such technologies.
Separately breadboard models of bodies in three-dimensional space have been presented on one of our forums still 3 years ago. Here is one of the pictures:

(https://b.radikal.ru/b02/1811/04/039eed404d98t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b02/1811/04/039eed404d98.png)

(https://d.radikal.ru/d28/1811/a5/14e2d6c43c50t.jpg) (https://d.radikal.ru/d28/1811/a5/14e2d6c43c50.png)

It is Slobodin.

But these pictures are not the cores. The main thing it that around and with presence of details, including snow, visibilities, a wind and passableness.
Without this all to analyze an event it is impossible. Or it will become with fatal errors.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 06, 2018, 01:31:44 PM
WAB  Teddy needs some simple easy to understand dialogue for the show.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 07, 2018, 02:50:36 AM
WAB  Teddy needs some simple easy to understand dialogue for the show.

What do you want to tell it?
1.At rumpling there is an actual and checked up information and I state it in detail.
2.I prove mine the information as greatest possible and as it at me can it will turn out.
3.She should be understood only while translating (if that that is is not clear, it is necessary to ask me detailed questions, I will try to decipher not clear details) and to adapt for listeners.
4.The information Resulted here is based (in some parts!) only on hearings and gossips, and it is obvious, if into it to penetrate profoundly, instead of is superficial.
You suggest to state merits of case without correcting obvious errors and defects?
It even more will confuse business and will result in deadlock because contradictions will increase only.
It is good, if it is not necessary, I can not write here after that moment. If you want and object about it.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 07, 2018, 03:21:07 AM

Hi there WAB pleased to meet you.
No. It not a plausible explanation. Yudin studied on economic branch of university UPI.
But if the indigenous people killed everyone, then why were some of the clothes of the victims contaminated with radioactivity? A possible explanation can be found in the diaries. Lyuda wrote: ‘After breakfast, some of the lads, headed by Yuri Yudin, our well-known geologist, went to look for local minerals. They didn’t find anything except pyrite and quartz veins in the rock.’

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 206). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.

In the notebooks of journalist Grygoriev, who took part in the rescue operation, there is the following entry: All the backpacks have bits and pieces of rocks … Vishnevsky told me that they were for striking fire in case their matches got damp. I disagreed because I saw that they were rocks taken from the 2nd Severny camp.

Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 207). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.

Perhaps amateur geologist is better.


I have not understood. What exactly proves to be true with Chivruey?
Both groups had orange skin.

The points in between the above point and below were made by Teddy not by me.

It is wrong. Case never no was confidential, because the decision was not made what to make its confidential.
Case have simply put in confidential archive that the small quantity of people could read it. Because the consequence could not give exact the answer to a question: that there is a reason of the beginning of this case. If on this question there is no answer in 60 years after why they should be cleverer or possess the big knowledge then?

Your statement is in direct contradiction of the reported interview with Ivanov in Leninsky Put and the interview with his superior???




The film of Simeon's camera could not remain. Because its camera was in water long time. If who that of readers of a forum was engaged in a chemical photo (shooting on a film and chemical processing) should know that:

It's debatable. First point is that if Semyon was KGB then the camera may well have been constructed to a military standard and waterproof. Second point (1) all the photos seem to be of self illuminating objects in a night sky, (2) Eagle fits very closely with the observation from a professional meteorologist and (3) Plane 2 appears to be illuminating a cloud of snow below it and part of the hill. Yes it could all be water damage etc but the probability that random damage would make such visual sense has to be very low imo.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 08, 2018, 08:39:40 PM
Art Bell was on coast to coast and has died....   what exactly is the show you will be on?   Is there a specific link to go to and listen? 

We all know you will do a fantastic job as usual.  It seems to me you have put alot of thought into what you will cover/say etc and I'm sure it will pay off. 

My suggestion regarding the tent.....

"The question regarding the tent has two separate aspects in which either can have two possible outcomes. The tent being cut from the inside isn't whats mostly debated. 

#1 The 3 cuts as clearly shown in the case files were too small for anyone to exit from, however some believe two of the three cuts may have been joined prior to the tent being destroyed during the investigation/removal.

#2. Depending on which witness testimony you read, the argument can be made that the tent entrance was found both open, or secured/closed. 

The only certainty is that the first search students to find the tent hacked into it with an ice axe, rummaged through the contents, took a few items including a flask with alcohol back to their buddies, and the next day it was dug out of hard encrusted icey snow with shovels and pick axes, then dragged over exposed rock and sharp ice a half mile to the helo pad."


That should cover it.    thanky1
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 08, 2018, 09:01:32 PM
Art Bell is dead from accidental (?) overdose but his show is not. Current host is Dave Schrader.
I will be announced either here http://midnightinthedesert.com/category/dave-schrader/ (http://midnightinthedesert.com/category/dave-schrader/) or here http://midnightinthedesert.com/  (http://midnightinthedesert.com/)
They are going to notify me and I will post it. You can see they are now announcing Nov 8th. I will be on Nov 16th, again - I chose the date because of  Kolevatov's DOB.
They let me choose the date, they think Dyatlov Pass deserves prime time. What do you think?

I don't believe we will be getting into details because the host won't be very deep into the texture. They will as usual ask me about Yeti and extraterrestrials. Whatever people looking up to the desert sky might be thinking of... while smoking a joint or two. My main goal is to tell the basics of the case, and leave the impression that there might be a development soon so listeners get interested. I am not really concerned where do they get their information from, they will end up on our site.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on November 09, 2018, 06:41:21 AM
#1 The 3 cuts as clearly shown in the case files were too small for anyone to exit from, however some believe two of the three cuts may have been joined prior to the tent

Wait a second, why hack into a tent, if there's already a cut large enough for people to fit through?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 09, 2018, 06:56:46 AM
#1 The 3 cuts as clearly shown in the case files were too small for anyone to exit from, however some believe two of the three cuts may have been joined prior to the tent

Wait a second, why hack into a tent, if there's already a cut large enough for people to fit through?

Bingo
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 09, 2018, 10:06:36 AM
#1 The 3 cuts as clearly shown in the case files were too small for anyone to exit from, however some believe two of the three cuts may have been joined prior to the tent

Wait a second, why hack into a tent, if there's already a cut large enough for people to fit through?
Because the snow covering the tent was so hard that they had to use a ice axe?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 10, 2018, 01:28:24 AM
.............................
Wait a second, why hack into a tent, if there's already a cut large enough for people to fit through?
Because the snow covering the tent was so hard that they had to use a ice axe?

No. Because they did not have with itself anything else. They took that was possible and operated by means of it.
Snow in this place does not happen such that without ice axe it would be impossible to crack it. But anything else at them was not have.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 10, 2018, 04:13:37 AM
Hi there WAB.

I'm sorry but i can't understand your last post. It's accepted that the rescue team damaged the tent because it was covered in very hard ice.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: WAB on November 12, 2018, 10:46:32 AM
Hi there WAB.

I'm sorry but i can't understand your last post. It's accepted that the rescue team damaged the tent because it was covered in very hard ice.

Dear Nigel Evans I should apologise, I have not so well written that text. I was hurried up.
Here is how to me it have told at various times Boris Slobtsov and Michael Sharavin, everyone separately (it is short sample with conclusions):
They have approached to this place where there was a tent only below it on 20 … 30 m (60 … 90 ft) and on distance about 100 m (300 ft). There they have removed skis and rose on more abrupt slope directly to tent. They did not have anything with itself except the field-glass. When they have seen (have proved to be true) that it is tent it was necessary to look that is inside. Which they have seen a unique subject also which could help to dig it snow was ice axe. Usually it put that it would hold a tent rope. They took ice axe and have started to rake a flute on tent. Sharavin said that probably then they and have damaged a tent roof. Snow was firm, but not such that it would be necessary to cut it only. Simply they used that unique subject which was a number and to which could do it.
About that snow there such, what to cut it is not necessary, and it is necessary to work only as a firm subject we were convinced when 4 times went on pass in the winter.
In addition both of them spoke (everyone) that they very much were afraid to find there dead bodies. It is clear that any person of it is afraid, when it had no contact to a dead body. Therefore they not so well supervised the actions. Also could not remember all precisely and in detail.
To them did not give exact instructions as it is necessary to do it, and more precisely to tell, did it very quickly and not in detail. They were the very first group which has gone on searches and all very strongly hurried up them to send.

PS. It on I have on other theme, but I have not enough time. I have prepared to you a note occasionally with climbers on Сaucasus in 1978. There they have got to contact to a fireball. But I should have more time, what it to write shortly.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 13, 2018, 06:34:37 AM
> WAB, no need to apologize. I've searched my kindle books but i can't find a reference to the hardness of the snow on the tent so i'll accept your version.

What's your evidence for a fireball at Chivruay?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: CalzagheChick on November 13, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
I can't wait. I love listening to Teddy talk about DPI.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 13, 2018, 07:43:35 PM
I can't wait. I love listening to Teddy talk about DPI.

I had my sound check today. I asked when I will be announced. It is now 7:40 PM PST and the site (http://midnightinthedesert.com/) still has the today's show - Tue Nov 13 – Dr. Julia Mossbridge – Time Travel Therapy. I was told that the link will be announced on the day of the show because radio is a cut throat business and they have had instances when their guest has been snatched by competitors. So I am pretty sure it is going to be 9-11 pm PST (now PDT), but the announcement is going to be same day, on Nov 16. They are cool people, Michelle and Dave. I sent them the Shkryabach conclusion so they will be open to discuss that too.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 15, 2018, 01:45:56 PM
https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/pdt-to-gmt-converter
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 15, 2018, 02:12:12 PM
There is gonna be a podcast with a link. No need to listen to all the commercials in real time. It is 2 hours with 5 mins commercials at the begging and ending of each hour.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 16, 2018, 11:34:16 AM
http://midnightinthedesert.com/teodora-hadjiyska/ (http://midnightinthedesert.com/teodora-hadjiyska/)
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 16, 2018, 05:27:36 PM
Lets light this candle.    thumb1

Maybe I'll call in.     lol1
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 16, 2018, 09:29:15 PM
Im listening. Its 5-30 am in England as I write this.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 16, 2018, 11:00:28 PM
Good job Teddy    okey1
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 16, 2018, 11:06:44 PM
Thanks for the questions, that helped!
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 16, 2018, 11:12:27 PM
meh, I just gave him a short list of a few things to mention, they were not actually questions. 

#2 was about Yuri biting off a chunk of his own hand.     wink1. I have always found this to be an odd thing to have occurred no matter what theory you subscribe to. 
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 16, 2018, 11:19:05 PM
meh, I just gave him a short list of a few things to mention, they were not actually questions. 

#2 was about Yuri biting off a chunk of his own hand.     wink1. I have always found this to be an odd thing to have occurred no matter what theory you subscribe to.

Darn, that would have been interesting to mention. It is odd. But sometimes people do that when their hands are freezing, to get back some sensation. But it is odd.
I can't explain most of the things in the case. I am merely recording them.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 16, 2018, 11:20:38 PM
My goals was to show people that there is much more ot this case that the eye meets from stupid movies and short overviews. They can read and make up their own conclusions.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 17, 2018, 04:12:03 AM
I managed to listen to about one and a half hours before falling asleep, well I did stay up all night and it was 6-30am our time. What I heard was OK.  Good job done. Maybe Teddy could brief the Forum on the talk, ie, main points.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 17, 2018, 07:41:46 AM
Is there a link to last nights program anywhere yet?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 17, 2018, 08:05:56 AM
Is there a link to last nights program anywhere yet?

I will ask and let you know. I hope you you don't need to be a member to listen to the archives, I will work something out.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 17, 2018, 12:41:57 PM
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/MidnightInTheDesert-20181116.mp3
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on November 17, 2018, 01:51:02 PM
Thanks for the link! I missed the live show.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Marchesk on November 18, 2018, 05:20:57 PM
After listening to the show, I better understand the reason for thinking it was murder, and why the snow slide theory doesn't explain everything. Also, I better understand just how contaminated the tent scene was by the search party. We really can't trust a lot of the information about the tent.

But why kill nine hikers who are just passing through? Who would bother in those weather conditions in that remote region? How did they find the tent?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Teddy on November 18, 2018, 06:55:30 PM
The million dollar question
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: sarapuk on November 19, 2018, 06:19:48 PM
So we need a million dollar answer.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 20, 2018, 12:59:57 AM
So we need a million dollar answer.
Which is the answer Ivanov took to Moscow. Which resulted in the command to cover up and refuse any further access to the area.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on November 20, 2018, 04:58:24 AM
The case was taken from Ivanov.  One can argue this is a result of his incompetence, and in of itself doesn't prove a cover-up exists.

What does this have to do with the topic?
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 20, 2018, 05:37:13 AM
The case was taken from Ivanov.  One can argue this is a result of his incompetence, and in of itself doesn't prove a cover-up exists.
The case wasn't just taken off Ivanov, Okishev states it was removed from civilian jurisdiction by order of the Central Committee (Deputy Prosecutor General Urakov) and he commanded that the civilian investigators invent a cover story of an accident and front this in person to the distressed relatives, a task which they both found difficult. That has got nothing to do with removing Ivanov from the case due to incompetence.
Title: Re: Art Bell's radio show
Post by: Nigel Evans on November 20, 2018, 05:39:09 AM
What does this have to do with the topic?
Answering Teddy's million dollar question?