After the ravine event they dig down to ensure the 4 could breathe. Then it is apparent that they can't move them but they don't understand the extent of their injuries and that there is no hope. If they can dig out more snow and get them in blankets and create a shelter then they might survive. So two people have to go back for supplies whilst one stays and attends the wounded. It is (or could be soon) snowing which could quickly cover the wounded and suffocate them (Nicolai is unconscious). The pathologist estimates Nicolai surviving for a couple of hours (from memory). This is also a similar period to how long the round trip to the tent would take. So Igor waits in vain for hours until Nicolai ceases breathing. Then he tries to make it to the tent and find Zinaida and Rustem. But hypothermia has taken over. He loses higher order mental function, stumbles through dense undergrowth picking up scratches until he to lies down to die.
Nigel - why do you think Igor was separate from Rustem and Zina and with the Ravine 4?
How long do you think it took for them all to expire? I know those with rib and severe injuries would have been about 20 minutes.
I have a slightly unpopular opinion that the three hill never made it to the fire. The argument that their heads are pointing tiwards the tent and that means they are going up is nonsense. Have you ever fallen when walking downhill? Your head will never point down, you fall on your butt and your head is always uphill.
Yeah the way the branch is stuck under Dyatlov's arm is possible only if the body is coming from downhill, but that's why I think his body has been dragged from the original position.
So first dies Zina ,but not of hypothermia of course. She was hit in the head and on the waist.
She tried to move ,manages to walk a bit grom the tent ,falls and crumble on one side.
========================
Then Slobodin is hit on the head when he is away from the tent and falls immidiately unconscious and dies.
Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.
Two on the cedar are next and I believe they were alone at the cedar ,because why the most undressed will climb to brake branches,while Tibo and Zolotarev were well dressed and had gloves. More logical is for them to climb and brake branches with gloves, not the ones with bare hands. So i believe the group spread in the dark from the beginning. Each on their own. People are people.
Ravine 4 were hiding in the ravine, they go to the fire when they thought the danger is gone.
Took clothes from Yuris, returned to ravine and there they were killed.
With probably Kolevatov being the last one to die of hypothermia while trying to warm hinself on still warm body of Zolotaryov.
I don't believe in heroic acts here. These are rare and occure in few people. In death or life moments people tend to act for themselves .
Dear Ehtnisba!
You surprise me constantly. In good sense of this word. That almost constantly give answers close to the truth which I saw directly on that place or according to the logic of succession events which is well built in district.
I had suspicion that you there were?
But I have already terminated joke, I will support your opinion.
Human on slope practically always lays down head upwards. At this forum Loose} {Cannon showed photo where set of people settle down on slope. Those who lie, all have direction upwards a head on slope. It is such instinct if so it is possible it will be expressed.
Haha well thanks WAB, I may have never been there, but I am skiing in the mountains since 3 years old, so a common sense about falling comes to mind. Also from experience when I needed to climb uphill I know that 100m up are like 1000km down. But if you have walked a mile downhill bare feet in the dark , you will definitely not have the strength to go that much uphill again . And this is not an even ski road like nowadays but wild slope . So yes going up after going down seems impossible to me.
If consider logic of these possible actions three only Dyatlov have uncertainty: where it went - upwards or downwards. If at others 2 there are signs which say that upwards from fire they could not go (structure of things in pockets, position and distance on slope, head injury presence) Dyatlov have full uncertainty with such signs. I give 50 on 50 that could be on miscellaneous. Concerning the others I was already convinced that they could not reach downwards, and then start rise. I resulted arguments already some times.
Therefore its arrangement about what cannot tell, but it does not change anything in sequence of events.
Branch under Dyatlov arm is really messing up considerations of up or down. People believe that he as a leader decided to go up searching for Zina and he is relatively close to fire.
But I am wondering why Zolotaryov and Tibo didn't distributed clothes among the others with less, or you think both of them were injured and others decided they need clothes the most?
As I remember one of them had gloves in his pocket ,,, why nobody used them? And why the unbuttoned pockets and jackets . I thought that with very frozen fingers you are unable to button or zip a jacket. Sometimes even unable to put gloves on cause fingers are like cheese bending and totally dead from cold. I wrote this theory in the topic Katabatic Wind
Excuse me, and why you consider, what there was blow to his head?
Yes,because of the blood searchers reported and also from the look of her head in the morgue. But I am not a pathologist to consider it for sure.
Seeing the terrain in your photo makes sense that a person walking in the dark could cause a severe injuries to himself . I imagined it only snow . She was only 500-800 m from the tent. Is it possible her strength to be so small that she didn't make it further? Especially in survival mode? Or if she was walking alone lost from the group this made a crucial impact ot her will and psychological state so she just gave up?
Burmantovo weather reports were minimum -10 C that night. Could you freeze so fast at -10 ? I had mild hypothermia symptoms at -1 in the UK after 5-6 hours outside in light clothes ,but humidity and wind were really high.
So at -10 and wind without clothes maybe an hour or 2 hours?
Rustem Slobodin is place near to Zina - only 150 m or 400 ft. But anybody did not beat him
you maybe see that I am bang1 between several theories and one of them is that outsider/s made the group escape the tent on gunpoint. In different topics in the forum I am expressing different thoughts and this way trying to find the right ones. For example in the topic for Katabatic Wind ,I wrote about personal experience how me and my friends escaped from a tent due to extreme cold and frozen limbs and suggested it for a reason.
So about Rustem, what intrigues me is that he had injuries /bruising on both sides of his head . Which means that he had hit his head twice and chance of this happening on both his sides so symmetrical are odd. Also his eyes are reported to be bruised and swollen .
That is why he seem curious case for me. I will read your topic about him today.
Who and why binded he?
I saw the canvas bindings , I was thinking about the position of his hands on his chest. Usually tied hands are in this position and I read an article about Mansis way of killing by binding victims to die in the cold and dragged with sledges . Northlander found a book where a case from 1930s is reported about Russians killed by Mansi . So I am speculating about Dyatlov, because he is the only one with curious pose and questions about going up or down. Also who dies face up when cold? Usually you crumble .... But again I may say I remember that once out of complete exhaustion while climbing a slope in snow I laid face up due to easier breathing ,but my hands were spread along the body not on my chest. Maybe when he tried to get up he couldn't and his hand remained in this position holding the branch for support...
No. I do not agree that they have dispersed because everyone wanted to survive separately. It would not turn out also they about it knew and had intention to operate together. Circumstances have not allowed them incorporate. More precisely - they could incorporate in groups in which them have found: 2 and 4. The others operated separately because could not meet others
So you think Zolotaryov, Luda and Tibo had already been injured when they reached the fire? And that is why only 2 Yuris were climbing the tree for firewood? As I find fire to be the most important thing I think that more than 2 people should have been involved in keeping it with firewood.
Also in autopsy report the coroner assumes that Luda had only 20 mins to live after her injury, so if she received it on the slope or in tent how she was still alive at fire and in the den . Fire is estimated to be burning for 2 hours and going downhill an hour or so ..this makes it 3 hours in which all 6 were alive?
It just that case when it was so. It is necessary know well mood, habits, motivation and psychology of people in that time in the USSR. And I already spoke: the spirit of collectivism, it is national peculiarity of Russian. From antiquity they have got used live in community. The cold both severe climate and the big distances have historically given such qualities.
The system preparation ski travel at students of that time (partially it remains now) is constructed in such manner that those who is more adjusted as the individualist, are eliminated in the course of preparation for difficult travel already in the first or second year. When they make still more simple travel.
Good point indeed. I am looking at peoples characters today and from my generation and experience. From old people I know the rule that in the mountain individualists are not accepted.
I have a slightly unpopular opinion that the three hill never made it to the fire. The argument that their heads are pointing tiwards the tent and that means they are going up is nonsense. Have you ever fallen when walking downhill? Your head will never point down, you fall on your butt and your head is always uphill. Yeah the way the branch is stuck under Dyatlov's arm is possible only if the body is coming from downhill, but that's why I think his body has been dragged from the original position.So they have the energy to, climb trees, gather firewood, light a fire, build a snow den but no energy (or will) to assist fallen members on the slope? It doesn't hold up imo. Also if the Zinaida, Rustem and Igor are struggling to complete the journey it would be whilst ascending, particularly if nitric acid is involved.
So first dies Zina ,but not of hypothermia of course. She was hit in the head and on the waist. She tried to move ,manages to walk a bit grom the tent ,falls and crumble on one side. Then Slobodin is hit on the head when he is away from the tent and falls immidiately unconscious and dies.
Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.
Two on the cedar are next and I believe they were alone at the cedar ,because why the most undressed will climb to brake branches,while Tibo and Zolotarev were well dressed and had gloves. More logical is for them to climb and brake branches with gloves, not the ones with bare hands. So i believe the group spread in the dark from the beginning. Each on their own. People are people.
Ravine 4 were hiding in the ravine, they go to the fire when they thought the danger is gone. Took clothes from Yuris, returned to ravine and there they were killed. With probably Kolevatov being the last one to die of hypothermia while trying to warm hinself on still warm body of Zolotaryov.
I don't believe in heroic acts here. These are rare and occure in few people. In death or life moments people tend to act for themselves .
The only smart thing that guy with the elk said is to try and think out of experience ,well.of course if the said thinker has at least a bit of experience in similar situation...
I highly doubt two Yuris , that's what I wrote here - how come only 2 people are left to climb a tree??? It is clear that only two of them were climbing - injuries, needles only on their bodies,etc.
And Zina is more close to the fire than to the tent if you look at map..or at most she is exactly in the middle between fire and tent . So she had walked at least 700-800m bare feet. As I added i my answer to WAB, human will and strength depends on lot of things. If she was walking alone down the slope 800m in rough terrain with no shoes are quite enough to be injured and tired even in day light . Someone could have helped her die or its natural... Don't know
About the others, if you are in a critic situation without clothes at night and you stumble in rocks and snow you don't go for search of lost comrades first. Even lifeguards don't this. First is to find a safe place for yourself, evaluate the situation , and then go on a search. if Dyatlov went on a search wasn't it reasonable Tibo or Zolotaryov to give him valenki and jacket,one hat???? Or they were like "nah comrade, we believe you have communist superpowers and you will be able to bring 2 people from a slope with bare feet,bare head, and only a vest on your back , go Dyatlov, GO! We be stayin close to fire fully dressed while the other two half naked comrades are climbing a tree to find branches" ...
Exactly Chivruay and Korovina group shows us a pettern that people act on their own when they face death. I don't see activity except for the 2 at cedar. Other 4 were in my opinion separate from the fire for reasons unknown..maybe Zolotaryov argued that much better strategy is to find shelter instead of building fire and they just split. If I was there I would choose to believe in the strategy of a wwII veteran and will stick to him,hence more people in the ravine and only 2 at cedar .At the DPI i see a group of previously friendly people with a lot of energy engaged in tasks that take significant time, collecting firewood, cutting down saplings, building a fire, building a den floor (at the very least), climbing a tree. But they've abandoned their friends to die a few hundred metres away? No way it doesn't fit.
If something on the slope was killing them, then yes. No point in going back to a certain death when you know 2 of your comrades are already dead there 90% . And even is nothing is killing them ,again would you go back on a suicide mission when you yourself is bare feet and with just a cowboy shirt and a vest?But the lack of frostbite indicates it wasn't that cold. Nicolai's jacket unfastened and gloves in pockets. Semyon's jacket unfastened at the top. Lyudmila in socks but no frostbite. Rustem only had one boot but no frostbite on his feet.
Have you ever tried to go uphill in the wild out of a track with shoes and with proper wear in winter on a terrain with rocks and ice? This is a slooow task, and if you breathe too much with open mouth you risk of getting your lungs to freeze, cough blood and die instantly even after few meters. They must have known that .... They spent 3-4 hours uphill with skis on the other day. Searchers spent whole day to go uphill with skis again. But Zina did down and up for a couple of hours with no shoes?
I am just going from my logic and what times are reported in diaries and searchers radiograms...
That is another mystery too , gloves in pockets and no frostbite. But have in mind that the frostbite needs time to develop. You must be alive . At the beginning frostbite is just abnormally white-pale blue skin, numbness and lack of blood if you tear the skin in said frostbiten area.This in 3 hours - https://mashable.com/2015/03/18/australian-frostbite-canada/?europe=true#92Bdhb_0ZGq7 (https://mashable.com/2015/03/18/australian-frostbite-canada/?europe=true#92Bdhb_0ZGq7)
How do you explain that Dyatlov was wearing something (a vest) that didn't belong to him?Hiya.
Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.
I'm highly sceptical of any murder theory, but the vest in itself might be a red herring. People share clothes on camping trips all the time, Igor could have been wearing it all day. It wasn't even really Doroshenko's - Yuri Yudin lent it to Doroshenko before he turned back.Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.
Don't know how did I get separated by so many posts, I thought I am right behind Ehtnisba. If Dyatoov never made it ot the fire when did he get the vest from Doroshenko?
I'm highly sceptical of any murder theory, but the vest in itself might be a red herring. People share clothes on camping trips all the time, Igor could have been wearing it all day. It wasn't even really Doroshenko's - Yuri Yudin lent it to Doroshenko before he turned back.Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.
Don't know how did I get separated by so many posts, I thought I am right behind Ehtnisba. If Dyatoov never made it ot the fire when did he get the vest from Doroshenko?
I'm highly sceptical of any murder theory, but the vest in itself might be a red herring. People share clothes on camping trips all the time, Igor could have been wearing it all day. It wasn't even really Doroshenko's - Yuri Yudin lent it to Doroshenko before he turned back.Dyatlov could be almost to the cedar when he is tied and dragged until stuck in the bush and left there to die of cold.
Don't know how did I get separated by so many posts, I thought I am right behind Ehtnisba. If Dyatoov never made it ot the fire when did he get the vest from Doroshenko?
I love the superman theory !Because there is no other explanation for this incident. It could be superman or jinn.
Haha well thanks WAB, I may have never been there, but I am skiing in the mountains since 3 years old, so a common sense about falling comes to mind. Also from experience when I needed to climb uphill I know that 100m up are like 1000km down.
But if you have walked a mile downhill bare feet in the dark , you will definitely not have the strength to go that much uphill again .
And this is not an even ski road like nowadays but wild slope .So yes going up after going down seems impossible to me.
Branch under Dyatlov arm is really messing up considerations of up or down. People believe that he as a leader decided to go up searching for Zina and he is relatively close to fire.
But I am wondering why Zolotaryov and Tibo didn't distributed clothes among the others with less, or you think both of them were injured and others decided they need clothes the most?
As I remember one of them had gloves in his pocket ,,, why nobody used them? And why the unbuttoned pockets and jackets . I thought that with very frozen fingers you are unable to button or zip a jacket. Sometimes even unable to put gloves on cause fingers are like cheese bending and totally dead from cold. I wrote this theory in the topic Katabatic Wind
Yes,because of the blood searchers reported and also from the look of her head in the morgue. But I am not a pathologist to consider it for sure.
Seeing the terrain in your photo makes sense that a person walking in the dark could cause a severe injuries to himself . I imagined it only snow . She was only 500-800 m from the tent. Is it possible her strength to be so small that she didn't make it further? Especially in survival mode? Or if she was walking alone lost from the group this made a crucial impact ot her will and psychological state so she just gave up?
weather reports were minimum -10 C that night.
Could you freeze so fast at -10 ?
I had mild hypothermia symptoms at -1 in the UK after 5-6 hours outside in light clothes ,but humidity and wind were really high.
So at -10 and wind without clothes maybe an hour or 2 hours?
you maybe see that I am bang1 between several theories and one of them is that outsider/s made the group escape the tent on gunpoint.
In different topics in the forum I am expressing different thoughts and this way trying to find the right ones. For example in the topic for Katabatic Wind ,I wrote about personal experience how me and my friends escaped from a tent due to extreme cold and frozen limbs and suggested it for a reason.
So about Rustem, what intrigues me is that he had injuries /bruising on both sides of his head . Which means that he had hit his head twice and chance of this happening on both his sides so symmetrical are odd. Also his eyes are reported to be bruised and swollen .
That is why he seem curious case for me. I will read your topic about him today.
I saw the canvas bindings , I was thinking about the position of his hands on his chest. Usually tied hands are in this position and I read an article about Mansis way of killing by binding victims to die in the cold and dragged with sledges . Northlander found a book where a case from 1930s is reported about Russians killed by Mansi .
So I am speculating about Dyatlov, because he is the only one with curious pose and questions about going up or down. Also who dies face up when cold? Usually you crumble ....
But again I may say I remember that once out of complete exhaustion while climbing a slope in snow I laid face up due to easier breathing ,but my hands were spread along the body not on my chest. Maybe when he tried to get up he couldn't and his hand remained in this position holding the branch for support...
So you think Zolotaryov, Luda and Tibo had already been injured when they reached the fire?
And that is why only 2 Yuris were climbing the tree for firewood? As I find fire to be the most important thing I think that more than 2 people should have been involved in keeping it with firewood.
Also in autopsy report the coroner assumes that Luda had only 20 mins to live after her injury, so if she received it on the slope or in tent how she was still alive at fire and in the den .
Fire is estimated to be burning for 2 hours and going downhill an hour or so ..this makes it 3 hours in which all 6 were alive?
There is no clear order though. My guess:
- Slobodin
- Zina
- Igor
- Doroshenko
- Krivonischenko
- Lyuda
- Tibo
- Zolotaryov
- Kolevatov
Marchesk - interested to see what your take is on "order of death" and reasons why.
Are you still of the mindset that something kept them away from the tent for all those hours, or could they simply have been lost and disorientated and not able to find their way back?
Thanks :)
Exactly Chivruay and Korovina group shows us a pettern that people act on their own when they face death. I don't see activity except for the 2 at cedar. Other 4 were in my opinion separate from the fire for reasons unknown..maybe Zolotaryov argued that much better strategy is to find shelter instead of building fire and they just split. If I was there I would choose to believe in the strategy of a wwII veteran and will stick to him,hence more people in the ravine and only 2 at cedar .At the DPI i see a group of previously friendly people with a lot of energy engaged in tasks that take significant time, collecting firewood, cutting down saplings, building a fire, building a den floor (at the very least), climbing a tree. But they've abandoned their friends to die a few hundred metres away? No way it doesn't fit.
Nobody knows how long it took to start the fire, and it does not require 9 people.
The researchers found many dozens of matches near the cedar tree. This proves that they've been working a long time to burn the fire. (And since it is already covered with snow, the trees are wet, which makes it difficult to light the fire and take a long time.)
Anyone ever time how long it takes to light 24 wood matches? You realize that in a situation like this, you would light several matches at the same time?24 matches only. It is very likely that there are many matches that are not found and burned. Both very cold windy and moist branches are very difficult to burn. It probably took them a long time to light the fire. And there are already many dry branches around the fire. That means they didn't catch the fire for a long time. They decided to return to the tent if they could not fire for a long time and faced death. Kolevatov Semyon Tibo and Dubinina would not leave the fire if they continued to burn fire for a long time.The question is: Semyon and his friends are doing it in the snow because they can't keep the fire going. But why do 2 Yuri stay near the fire ??? Why are they not leaving the fire ???
Cennetkusu….I'm agreeing. It must have taken a long time to start a fire under those conditions i.e. damp twigs. What did they use for kindling?? Besides little damp twigs?? Articles of clothing? Either way, I don't see them lighting a fire fast.
Today I'm stuck on the matches used to start the fire at the Cedar.
Coz they must have used matches right?
Q1: Whats the consensus on the matches in terms of:
1) the only box of matches found outside the tent were on Rustem and Kolevatov (please correct me if I'm wrong) but neither of them were found at the Cedar,
so....one of them helped start the fire at the Cedar and so one of them was AT the Cedar and then set off into the Ravine or back up the slope.....
OR
2) The Yuris started the fire and used up their matches.
If 1 then:
a) Rustem helps start the fire and then goes back to the tent - evidence he dies on the way back to the tent and not going to the Cedar;
bi.) Kolevatov helps start the fire and then goes to the Ravine - evidence that he spent an amount of time at the Cedar; OR
ii.) Kolevatov takes matches AND clothes from the Yuris and goes back to the Ravine (evidence of just that)
I'm just trying to establish who might have been where at what time....
Q2) If the fire took a while to start, had others set off into the Ravine to find shelter in the meantime?
Possible answer: Not likely because the Yuris' clothes were distributed amongst the Ravine 4 - UNLESS they came back to the bodies to retrieve the clothing??
Q3) If it took 2 of the Rav 4 to succumb to their injuries in 20 minutes, then
a.) they were injured in the Ravine OR
b.) They were not injured in the Ravine but elsewhere and were taken to the Ravine by the others....who did not realize their comrades were likely already dead (this is of course contingent on how long it took to get to the Ravine from either the tent or the Cedar....I believe I read somewhere it took longer than 20 minutes to reach the Cedar from the tent)
Thoughts?? Feelings??