Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vietnamka on March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM

Title: Clothes
Post by: Vietnamka on March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM
Part 1.

1) It is cold in the tent. The tent has exactly the same subzero temperature as outside. They have no stove, no sleeping bags and no floor mats. Therefore, from the very beginning I proceed from the assumption that they are not so barely clad in the tent. This is normal. They do not move, but sit and their chances to freeze to death in the tent are not less than down by the fire under the cedar tree.

2) It is cold outside. Whatever happened to them — Yeti, rocket, killers, at all times they were still affected by the cold. At each stage - before the events, at the time, below the cedar and so on. This is factor that doesn't change through out the night. Even if there is not -30°C, but only -10°C, it is still cold.

The question is at what point and how did they react to the cold, when the graver thread (Yeti, rocket, or killers) ceased to be a priority and goes into the background. We know that that they were able to walk 1.5 km, make a fire, begin to gradually die and even take off each other's clothes. So when the main thread subsides, the cold becomes top priority again. We follow their reaction to the cold - the fire, the exchange of clothes.

Lets start form the beginning. Something happens at the tent, something dangerous and life threatening. It creates STRESS situation in the medical sense of the word - an increased protective reaction of the body to the effects of an adverse factor.

Acute phase of stress.
At this moment, in the cerebral cortex is formed a center of dominant arousal, all human mental activity is directed towards one thing - to get out from under the influence, to weaken its effect, to cope.
If the house is on fire - people jump out in shorts and do not think that they will be cold. If there is a child in the house, the mother in the nightgown will run around the house and scream, not realizing how she looks and that she is cold.
This is always accompanied by changes in the endocrine function (adrenaline is released) and the autonomic nervous system (the pupils dilate or contract, the heart begins to beat, the pressure rises, etc.). It is a fact that all these reactions are also protective against cold - heat production increases and a person not only may not feel cold, but may be feel hot.

Subacute phase of stress
1) the person somehow copes with the situation and/or the action of the stress factor begins to weaken. The dominant of the cerebral cortex begins to gradually weaken. The person begins gradually to react to the environment.
Mom saw the child carried out of the house. She still doesn’t care what she looks like, but she’s already covered with a blanket or coat. The released adrenaline is partially consumed and the panic and screaming stage will be replaced with her standing and crying. After her heart raced up to 200 beats per minute, it will now slow down to 120. And so on.

2) the stress factor doesn't go away, but the compensatory abilities of the body are already spent. The stage of decompensation begins, which can lead to death. For example - the child was not found, the mother has a heart attack, she loses consciousness and so on.

Getting out of the stress phase
Everything goes back to normal. A person "returns" to its usual routine.

Now let's apply this to the group and the cold. We have stress that caused fleeing the tent. We have a cold to which they do not react, then they begin to react in different ways. The response to cold will reflect the levels of stress.

1) acute phase
There is only one goal - to get out of the tent and go down. They don't care that they are barely clad and barefoot. They don't take anything with them. At this moment they don't feel the cold.

2) subacute phase
They have moved some distance away and are alive. The effect of stress weakens, and the feeling of the surrounding reality begins to set, and first of all the cold.

As soon as you feel “cold”, you will immediately involuntarily react to this: put your hands in your pocket, put your face into the collar of your jacket, pull the sleeves of your sweater over your hands, fasten your jacket
These are still involuntary minimal reactions, but they happen.
We don't see it in Igor.

They go further, at some point they stop and begin to try to understand - where are they, what's is happening to them, who is lost, where can they make a fire and so on. This is almost a way out of acute stress and analysis of the new situation. This is a return back to reality.

And they feel it - it's cold! They reach inside their pockets for gloves. fix the scarf around the neck and remember that they had insoles, and a mask.
These are still minimal manifestations of self preservation.
We don't see this in neither Igor, Zina nor Rustem.

The next stage of conscious activity is realizing that they are in a group. They have already came enough to their senses, have evaluated the feeling of cold, we know t is getting worse, but they are looking out for their friends. One has two caps - he will give it to someone that doesn't.
Again, we don't see this in the three on the slope, and these questions should have been faced already since they have been walking 1.5 km, looking up place for a fire, this reflects the already normal psychological state and an adequate assessment of the situation.

After they started the fire - and this is an unconditional source of heat - there should have analyzed their situation and come up with some plan to cope with it.
But Igor is still in one cotton sock, without a cap and in an unbuttoned vest!


I do not know how why was Igor in Yudin's vest which he left to Doroshenko, and his own was found in the tent, but Igor does not have time to get out of the acute stage of stress, there is not a single sign. Same applies to Zina and Rustem. Unlike everyone else.

Part 2.

1) Exchange of clothing
  We have to consider two ways of this happening
- active, while alive and conscious, "I have more, you have less - I will share with you"
- passive, post mortem. Someone died, doesn't need the clothes, we will take them.

2) There are 3 groups of hikers а) on the slope (Zina, Rustem, Igor) b) under the cedar (the two Yuris) and c) in the ravine (Lyuda, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Tibo).

3) Each member of the group can be considered as a potential donor of clothes and as a potential recipient of clothes. Depending on the condition in which they left the tent. Getting out of the tent is "not equal" to what they were eventually found.

So what do we have
The group on the slope
Zina - unused face mask under her sweater, 2 caps on her head, 4 or 5 pants (I don’t remember exactly, but many), a lot of socks and fur insoles.
Rustem - insoles that is not using but carries under his sweater. despite the fact he has felt boot on one foot only, and the second one is freezing, but he does not insert the insole into the sock.
Igor - he is dressed less than anybody else, especially his feet, and he doesn't have anything on his head, no cap.
Neither Zina, nor Rustem, nor anyone else lends him items of clothing, so that he would at least slightly warm his feet. He does not use clothes from the den to tear pieces to wrap around his legs, as Lyuda did.

The group on the slope does not have any signs that they realized their state of dressing and to do something about it, to help each other. There is not a single sign that they are interacting with someone below. They died BEFORE the opportunity presented to realize their condition and analyze each other's needs. They died before they realized that they were cold at all? But then they died during the descent, at the very beginning.

Group under the cedar
Their clothing was taken off, almost completely. Obviously after death. So the ones that have their clothes on have lived longer than them. Who are they?
- Kolevatov is in Doroshenko's jumpsuit.
- Tibo has Krivonischenko's wrist watch and possibly one of the sweaters is Krivonischenko's too
- Zolotaryov has Doroshenko's hat.

Group in the ravine
This is the most interesting. We are considering clothing that is not used on the flooring of the den.
- Kolevatov has no cap and no shoes. Moreover, he doesn't make himself a winding on his feet from the clothes on the flooring.
- Zolotaryov wears 2 hats, scarf, shoes. He is dressed beautifully and does not share a scarf with anyone and takes Doroshenko's hat to himself, although he has his woolen cap + scarf, and Kolevatov has nothing
- Tibo is beautifully dressed. Boots, warm jacket, cap and fur hat, crumpled unused socks in felt boots, unused gloves. In spite that...
- Lyuda uses her own women's jacket on the windings, and not sweaters and pants lying on the floor, her hat and jacket are removed from her. Obviously post mortem, because it would greatly weaken her in life.

Conclusions:
- The threesome on the slope has no signs of interaction with the other members of the group. There is also no indication that they had time to assess the degree of clothing of each. Did they die first? While descending?
- Second die the two Yuris, and at the same time with them, possibly Lyuda dies too. She is also "death donor" of clothes. And she does not use clothes from the the two Yuris.
- Kolevatov dies after the two Juris, but clearly before Tibo and Zolotaryov. He is also undressed to a degree, post mortem perhaps, (the cap is taken from him for example), but not as much as from the first dead.
Those who remain are dressed as warm as possible, and also don't need to use clothes from the flooring.
- last die Tibo and Semyon.

Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 26, 2019, 11:17:09 AM
"Even if there is not -30°C, but only -10°C, it is still cold."But there is good evidence that it wasn't even -10C?1 to 4 suggest that up at the ridge it wasn't very cold at all and that if the wind direction was from the west then warm air would continue down to the forest.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on March 26, 2019, 12:05:23 PM
What about the fact that only Zina and Doroshenko had the only reported evidence of frostbite though??

Unless you count the "tips of the fingers on right hand are dark brown color, minor skin abrasions on the soft tissue" on Krivonischenko as possibly being frostbite too?

Would that mean they were exposed to the cold longer? Why didn't all 5 outside of the Ravine 4 have frostbite?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 26, 2019, 12:13:08 PM


The frostbite profile is a curiosity. If the 2 Yuris die early why do they display frostbite when the others don't?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 26, 2019, 03:00:20 PM
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group. We dont know the exact temperatures or any wind chill factors. Some bodies were found with apparent frostbite. The overall behavior of the Group after they left their Tent maybe suggests that they were not overwhelmed by the cold before they met their demise.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Star man on March 26, 2019, 04:42:21 PM
If Igor, zina and Rustem died while defending the slope and before they came out of any acute shock, then what did they die from?  They couldn't have died from hypothermia so quickly.

You make some interesting points about the exchange and sharing of clothing, but there may be more simple explanations.  For example, Lyuda may have have used her own clothing to wrap her foot, before the 2 Yuris died, and she herself may have been in a critically injured condition before the clothes were removed from the Yuris and shared out. She may have been moved to the ravine and therefore could not use the additional clothes on the floor.

Also, the cold may not have been as much of a threat as is believed.  They had a fire. 

It's also possible that given the stressful situation they were not thinking straight and didnt realise all thendifferentmitemsmof clothing they had.  Gloves in pockets, spare socks, insoles etc.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Vietnamka on March 26, 2019, 08:10:43 PM
What about the fact that only Zina and Doroshenko had the only reported evidence of frostbite though??

Unless you count the "tips of the fingers on right hand are dark brown color,

Would that mean they were exposed to the cold longer? Why didn't all 5 outside of the Ravine 4 have frostbite?
1) Frostbite has the stages of development. "Dry necrosis" is a 4th stage  appears on the 7-10 days of  treatment.
1st stage  - blisters that are not described in autopsi reports.
"tips of the fingers on right hand are dark brown color" looks  more like postmortem drying, not frostbite.

2)
Quote
minor skin abrasions on the soft tissue" on Krivonischenko as possibly being frostbite too?
"The external ears are swollen and blue-red in color"  - it looks like frostbite 1 gr.

3)
Quote
Why didn't all 5 outside of the Ravine 4 have frostbite?

maybe because it is  clear that they did not die immediately after leaving the tent?




Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on March 26, 2019, 08:34:00 PM
The way people have laid it out makes me think that Igor, Zena, and Rustem didn't put on their additional clothes because they were tied up. Their death positions and abrasions on wrists and ankles suggest the same. (Leaving people outside in the cold was a way of killing them in the gulag without leaving any telltale signs if the authorities investigated. I've also found a case where some Soviets did the same to some Khanty young people resistant to collectivization and schooling). In my view, someone had really beaten the stuffing out of Rustem: a terrible head blow. And Zina had that baton-shaped wound around the kidneys. Not sure about Igor, though the "boxers' knuckles" suggest he had been fighting for his life.

By the way, I think Zena's ski mask under her other clothes is a result of post-WWII survival training; you were supposed to put your outdoor clothes on under your sweater during the night to dry them out.We were taught to do this with our gloves. And also to take everything out of your backpack and to lay it flat on the floor of the tent as an extra layer between you and the ground.

I tend to think the Yuris got frostbite when they were hiding in the tree and before the killers returned to finish them off. I've always assumed that the three were trying to get back to the tent, but they also could have broken away from the group when they were being frogmarched down the hill. They didn't take the Yuris' clothes either because they bolted from the group or because when they left to try to crawl back to the tent, the Yuren were still alive. It's hard to determine the order here, though I like the idea of an acute and post-acute phase. What's interesting is that the group engaged in all the survival strategies: fighting back, making a fire, and building a snow shelter. All were in vain.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Vietnamka on March 26, 2019, 08:34:28 PM
   sarapuk
Quote
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group
Сold affects everyone. The impact of cold is determined by the physical processes of heat production and heat loss, not by speculation.
Heat can be lost, in turn, through the processes of conduction and convection which directly depend on the clothes.
Quote
We dont know the exact temperatures or any wind chill factors.
we can be pretty sure it was  below zero and this is more than enough for "cold"
Quote
Some bodies were found with apparent frostbite
This is not confirmed  in narrative of autopsi reports.
Quote
The overall behaviour of the Group after they left their Tent maybe suggests that they were not overwhelmed by the cold before they met their demise
Of course not. They took off  clothes from the dead friends just for fun.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Vietnamka on March 26, 2019, 09:19:37 PM
Star man

Quote
If Igor, zina and Rustem died while defending the slope and before they came out of any acute shock, then what did they die from?  They couldn't have died from hypothermia so quickly.
couldn't. This is a mystery of "Dyatlov pass")))
Quote
For example, Lyuda may have have used her own clothing to wrap her foot, before the 2 Yuris died, and she herself may have been in a critically injured condition before the clothes were removed from the Yuris and shared out. She may have been moved to the ravine and therefore could not use the additional clothes on the floor.

You're right. But it excludes death all of 4th in the ravine at the same time. Due to snow fall in ravine, for example.

Quote
They had a fire. 
they used the clothes from the dead (it is difficult psychologically)

Quote
It's also possible that given the stressful situation they were not thinking straight and didnt realise all thendifferentmitemsmof clothing they had
If you accidentally touch a hot one, you don’t think, you just  pull back your hand))
There are always physiological reactions that do not depend on what you think.


Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: WAB on March 26, 2019, 11:28:01 PM
   sarapuk
Quote
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group
Сold affects everyone. The impact of cold is determined by the physical processes of heat production and heat loss, not by speculation.

Yes.

Heat can be lost, in turn, through the processes of conduction and convection which directly depend on the clothes.

Galina, you as always наступаете на те же грабли forget one of the most important making losses of heat - radiation. There is dependence in the fourth degree, and the share of these losses on cold makes essential part - about 30 % at temperature nearby-10С (14F). Dependence very strongly means raises with cold increase.
This theme very extensive, I have what tell about it (to the physicist and practice losses of heat), but I now have no the big time for this theme. Here it is necessary write very in detail all that would be clear to all. I hardly have time write shortly in themes where I can that shortly tell by means of memory. It is possible shortly (and only after one week) to discuss it in Russian in personal correspondence, and then you here shortly write result.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 01:36:33 AM
   sarapuk
Quote
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group
Сold affects everyone. The impact of cold is determined by the physical processes of heat production and heat loss, not by speculation.

Yes.

Heat can be lost, in turn, through the processes of conduction and convection which directly depend on the clothes.

Galina, you as always наступаете на те же грабли forget one of the most important making losses of heat - radiation. There is dependence in the fourth degree, and the share of these losses on cold makes essential part - about 30 % at temperature nearby-10С (14F). Dependence very strongly means raises with cold increase.
This theme very extensive, I have what tell about it (to the physicist and practice losses of heat), but I now have no the big time for this theme. Here it is necessary write very in detail all that would be clear to all. I hardly have time write shortly in themes where I can that shortly tell by means of memory. It is possible shortly (and only after one week) to discuss it in Russian in personal correspondence, and then you here shortly write result.
You are referring to - https://byjus.com/physics/stefan-boltzmann-law/ (https://byjus.com/physics/stefan-boltzmann-law/)
P=eσA(T4−Tc4)
T is the radiator’s temperature
Tc is surrounding temperature (in this case the air temperature).

So if their bodies are at 35C and the air temp is -10C then the power loss factor is 4100625. If the air temp is 0C then 1500625. Nearly 3x the rate of energy loss -10C versus 0C.

Now if say the air temp was +5C (ground temp still 0C) then the factor becomes 810000 a difference of 5x.

So a difference of a few degrees significantly affects heat loss and hence survival times.

This is before considering the wind chill -

(http://math.colgate.edu/~wweckesser/math113Spring04/handouts/new-wchill.gif)
If the wind was as strong as reported in the nearest settlement (and confirmed in the photographs) then they should have experienced frost bite in 15minutes? Only half way down the descent?
Unless the air was curiously warm?



Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Star man on March 27, 2019, 05:57:27 AM
   sarapuk
Quote
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group
Сold affects everyone. The impact of cold is determined by the physical processes of heat production and heat loss, not by speculation.

Yes.

Heat can be lost, in turn, through the processes of conduction and convection which directly depend on the clothes.

Galina, you as always наступаете на те же грабли forget one of the most important making losses of heat - radiation. There is dependence in the fourth degree, and the share of these losses on cold makes essential part - about 30 % at temperature nearby-10С (14F). Dependence very strongly means raises with cold increase.
This theme very extensive, I have what tell about it (to the physicist and practice losses of heat), but I now have no the big time for this theme. Here it is necessary write very in detail all that would be clear to all. I hardly have time write shortly in themes where I can that shortly tell by means of memory. It is possible shortly (and only after one week) to discuss it in Russian in personal correspondence, and then you here shortly write result.
You are referring to - https://byjus.com/physics/stefan-boltzmann-law/ (https://byjus.com/physics/stefan-boltzmann-law/)
P=eσA(T4−Tc4)
T is the radiator’s temperature
Tc is surrounding temperature (in this case the air temperature).

So if their bodies are at 35C and the air temp is -10C then the power loss factor is 4100625. If the air temp is 0C then 1500625. Nearly 3x the rate of energy loss -10C versus 0C.

Now if say the air temp was +5C (ground temp still 0C) then the factor becomes 810000 a difference of 5x.

So a difference of a few degrees significantly affects heat loss and hence survival times.

This is before considering the wind chill -

(http://math.colgate.edu/~wweckesser/math113Spring04/handouts/new-wchill.gif)
If the wind was as strong as reported in the nearest settlement (and confirmed in the photographs) then they should have experienced frost bite in 15minutes? Only half way down the descent?
Unless the air was curiously warm?

The radiative heat loss though depend on surface temp of clothing in the main, rather than body temperature.  So you also need to understand temperature gradient across the clothing.  What happens if you factor this in?  What are differences in rates then?
Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 06:27:35 AM

The radiative heat loss though depend on surface temp of clothing in the main, rather than body temperature.  So you also need to understand temperature gradient across the clothing.  What happens if you factor this in?  What are differences in rates then?
Regards
Star man
Of course (my numbers are just to show how relatively small differences in the air temperature can significantly affect the rate of heat loss by multiples and they weren't naked of course). Clothing will reduce the absolute value calculated by the formula but not the rate profile which will still follow Tdiff4
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Monika on March 27, 2019, 07:24:46 AM
It is very difficult to judge how groups were formed in the forest.
I find the most logical answer to me:
The group on the slope: I suppose all three went alongside each other or just behind each other towards a tent for clothes and shoes. Igor died first and Zina could take his cap, respectively other things. That's why Igor didn't have much to wear when he was found.
“Zina, nor Rustem, nor anyone else lends him items of clothing”.
I guess, he probably lost his clothes after his death.

The question is whether, after the death of the two Yuris, the other seven decided to divide their roles, and the trio went to the tent to take the clothes and boots, and the four others were supposed to build the den for all group (seven people). Or, after the death of Yuris, they separated into two groups, and each group cared for itself. Since the size of the den was only for four people, I tend to prefer the latter. Perhaps Igor and Zolotarev as two dominant personalities did not agree on how to deal with the situation and the group split.
On the other hand, between the fire and the den a many pieces of clothing were scattered on the way. This would in turn suggest that they wanted to navigate the trio when they returned from the tent to know how to get to the den.  So they divided the work and planned to meet again later that day.
The fact that some of Dyatlovs were less dressed doesn't mean the rest were selfish and refused to share clothes with each other.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 08:21:59 AM

The radiative heat loss though depend on surface temp of clothing in the main, rather than body temperature.  So you also need to understand temperature gradient across the clothing.  What happens if you factor this in?  What are differences in rates then?
Regards
Star man
Of course (my numbers are just to show how relatively small differences in the air temperature can significantly affect the rate of heat loss by multiples and they weren't naked of course). Clothing will reduce the absolute value calculated by the formula but not the rate profile which will still follow Tdiff4


Just thought. Wet clothing wouldn't reduce the external temperature of the clothing significantly as water is a good heat conductor.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Star man on March 27, 2019, 09:45:51 AM

The radiative heat loss though depend on surface temp of clothing in the main, rather than body temperature.  So you also need to understand temperature gradient across the clothing.  What happens if you factor this in?  What are differences in rates then?
Regards
Star man
Of course (my numbers are just to show how relatively small differences in the air temperature can significantly affect the rate of heat loss by multiples and they weren't naked of course). Clothing will reduce the absolute value calculated by the formula but not the rate profile which will still follow Tdiff4


Just thought. Wet clothing wouldn't reduce the external temperature of the clothing significantly as water is a good heat conductor.

True.  Of the various heat loss mechanisms I suspect that convection will be the dominant factor especially if the clothes were wet and there is also cooling due to evaporation. 

So is it possible to do thermal analysis to consider the range of heat loss vs heat generate and therefore make some judgments on time vs core body temperature?  And then understand corresponding physical and mental state?

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 27, 2019, 01:59:00 PM
The way people have laid it out makes me think that Igor, Zena, and Rustem didn't put on their additional clothes because they were tied up. Their death positions and abrasions on wrists and ankles suggest the same. (Leaving people outside in the cold was a way of killing them in the gulag without leaving any telltale signs if the authorities investigated. I've also found a case where some Soviets did the same to some Khanty young people resistant to collectivization and schooling). In my view, someone had really beaten the stuffing out of Rustem: a terrible head blow. And Zina had that baton-shaped wound around the kidneys. Not sure about Igor, though the "boxers' knuckles" suggest he had been fighting for his life.

By the way, I think Zena's ski mask under her other clothes is a result of post-WWII survival training; you were supposed to put your outdoor clothes on under your sweater during the night to dry them out.We were taught to do this with our gloves. And also to take everything out of your backpack and to lay it flat on the floor of the tent as an extra layer between you and the ground.

I tend to think the Yuris got frostbite when they were hiding in the tree and before the killers returned to finish them off. I've always assumed that the three were trying to get back to the tent, but they also could have broken away from the group when they were being frogmarched down the hill. They didn't take the Yuris' clothes either because they bolted from the group or because when they left to try to crawl back to the tent, the Yuren were still alive. It's hard to determine the order here, though I like the idea of an acute and post-acute phase. What's interesting is that the group engaged in all the survival strategies: fighting back, making a fire, and building a snow shelter. All were in vain.

So what are the supposed KILLERS doing while some of the Dyatlov Group walk a mile to the Cedar Tree etc ? Are they just wondering around bidding their time ? And is it likely that any of the Dyatlov Group would be trying to get back to the Tent with KILLERS around about them  ?  Doesnt make sense to Me.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 27, 2019, 02:08:48 PM
   sarapuk
Quote
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group
Сold affects everyone. The impact of cold is determined by the physical processes of heat production and heat loss, not by speculation.
Heat can be lost, in turn, through the processes of conduction and convection which directly depend on the clothes.
Quote
We dont know the exact temperatures or any wind chill factors.
we can be pretty sure it was  below zero and this is more than enough for "cold"
Quote
Some bodies were found with apparent frostbite
This is not confirmed  in narrative of autopsi reports.
Quote
The overall behaviour of the Group after they left their Tent maybe suggests that they were not overwhelmed by the cold before they met their demise
Of course not. They took off  clothes from the dead friends just for fun.

What Iam suggesting is that the COLD was not a factor in their leaving the Tent and eventual demise. The reason I suggest this is because of their behaviour as we know it from all accounts. And we would need to know the exact temperatures at play and any wind chill factors. Nothing suggests to Me that they were all overcome with Cold in the Tent. Nothing suggests to Me that the Cold killed them all. There are enough stories of people surviving in extreme low temperatures, temperatures much much lower than likely encountered at the Tent of the Dyatlov Group.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 27, 2019, 02:40:22 PM
   sarapuk
Quote
This is a lot of speculation about how the COLD may have affected the Dyatlov Group
Сold affects everyone. The impact of cold is determined by the physical processes of heat production and heat loss, not by speculation.

Yes.

Heat can be lost, in turn, through the processes of conduction and convection which directly depend on the clothes.

Galina, you as always наступаете на те же грабли forget one of the most important making losses of heat - radiation. There is dependence in the fourth degree, and the share of these losses on cold makes essential part - about 30 % at temperature nearby-10С (14F). Dependence very strongly means raises with cold increase.
This theme very extensive, I have what tell about it (to the physicist and practice losses of heat), but I now have no the big time for this theme. Here it is necessary write very in detail all that would be clear to all. I hardly have time write shortly in themes where I can that shortly tell by means of memory. It is possible shortly (and only after one week) to discuss it in Russian in personal correspondence, and then you here shortly write result.
You are referring to - https://byjus.com/physics/stefan-boltzmann-law/ (https://byjus.com/physics/stefan-boltzmann-law/)
P=eσA(T4−Tc4)
T is the radiator’s temperature
Tc is surrounding temperature (in this case the air temperature).

So if their bodies are at 35C and the air temp is -10C then the power loss factor is 4100625. If the air temp is 0C then 1500625. Nearly 3x the rate of energy loss -10C versus 0C.

Now if say the air temp was +5C (ground temp still 0C) then the factor becomes 810000 a difference of 5x.

So a difference of a few degrees significantly affects heat loss and hence survival times.

This is before considering the wind chill -

(http://math.colgate.edu/~wweckesser/math113Spring04/handouts/new-wchill.gif)
If the wind was as strong as reported in the nearest settlement (and confirmed in the photographs) then they should have experienced frost bite in 15minutes? Only half way down the descent?
Unless the air was curiously warm?

Interesting figures. We know that the temperatures around about the time of the Incident were normal for that part of the Urals, because its stated in the Diaries. Also they knew about the wind factor to expect. We know that there is absolutely no reason why such weather conditions should drive them from their Tent. They were confident enough to camp in a fairly exposed position.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 27, 2019, 02:41:36 PM

So is it possible to do thermal analysis to consider the range of heat loss vs heat generate and therefore make some judgments on time vs core body temperature?  And then understand corresponding physical and mental state?

Regards
Star man
I'll leave it in your good hands!  kewl1
Here's some bedtime reading - https://www3.nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/mphysics/Medical%20Physics/Part%20I.%20Physics%20of%20the%20Body/Chapter%202.%20Energy%20Household%20of%20the%20Body/2.3%20Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body/Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body.pdf (https://www3.nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/mphysics/Medical%20Physics/Part%20I.%20Physics%20of%20the%20Body/Chapter%202.%20Energy%20Household%20of%20the%20Body/2.3%20Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body/Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body.pdf)
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Star man on March 27, 2019, 03:46:09 PM

So is it possible to do thermal analysis to consider the range of heat loss vs heat generate and therefore make some judgments on time vs core body temperature?  And then understand corresponding physical and mental state?

Regards
Star man
I'll leave it in your good hands!  kewl1
Here's some bedtime reading - https://www3.nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/mphysics/Medical%20Physics/Part%20I.%20Physics%20of%20the%20Body/Chapter%202.%20Energy%20Household%20of%20the%20Body/2.3%20Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body/Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body.pdf (https://www3.nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/mphysics/Medical%20Physics/Part%20I.%20Physics%20of%20the%20Body/Chapter%202.%20Energy%20Household%20of%20the%20Body/2.3%20Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body/Heat%20losses%20of%20the%20body.pdf)

Thanks for the link.  Thinking about it in more detail, there are probably too many variables to get any meaningful results.  How much heat they were generating through work vs heat loss, vs body mass, vs wet or dry vs wind chill etc étude

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on March 27, 2019, 08:21:39 PM
As for what I think the killers were doing when the hikers walked a mile downhill to the cedar, I think the assailants were the ones who frogmarched them, probably on short skis or snowshoes. There's one military-type boot print visible in one photo, and the residue of a ski track in another. The flashlight on the tent and the items on the ground near the tent suggest the students were told to throw down their belongings and especially some of their protective clothing, probably at knife point. The other belongings on the snow by the cedar indicate a similar "shaking down" happened there--note the money on the ground there. I think the attackers may have even built the fire there.

Then I think they went back to the tent to look for something they thought the students had stolen and waited for the young people to die. Hence the ski pole that was cut--they'd used it to prop up the tent. Upon leaving the tent, they destroyed it so the students couldn't return to it.

I don't think cold killed any of them alone. I've hiked and camped in extreme temperatures, and if you stay active and your digits are protected, you can usually fight off hypothermia, especially in a group. I do think the first five were left to die in the cold, though, but only after being tied up.

I'm a professor at a college of criminal justice, so I tend to think in terms of crime scenes, but I think the event started as what may have looked to the students like a mugging. As for what they were looking for, that is a separate question.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on March 28, 2019, 11:52:14 AM
So the Yuris were hiding up a tree while the attackers started a fire? Or did they climb the tree after the attackers went after the 3 found on the slope?

Because of one of the Yuris' singed hair and both of them having burned clothing, I assume that they may have fallen out of the tree into the fire. I don't believe the burns were a result of them drying clothing on the stove pipe. How would you fit that into the attacker narrative?

You have excellent points about the boot and shortski snow prints and the theory explains why there's clothing scattered between tent and cedar. However, there was also clothing scattered between the cedar and ravine, supposedly so they could find their way back to the cedar???
 I don't know if you think they Ravine 4 escaped early on and tried to build a den or that they were marched into the ravine and the den was a setup? Zolotaryov and Dubinina's injuries apparently could not have been inflicted by another human being - the force was too great. Also in favour of the Rav 4 not being involved in the attack is the fact that they were wearing clothing that belonged to others that had assumedly died before them. What attackers would allow them to do that? Plus Zolotaryov's camera???

My only other question regarding the theory is that the only evidence of binding was on Igor's ankles I believe. In the autopsies, there is no mention of abrasions/bruises around wrists of all three and ankles of Zina and Rustem.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 28, 2019, 03:39:30 PM
As for what I think the killers were doing when the hikers walked a mile downhill to the cedar, I think the assailants were the ones who frogmarched them, probably on short skis or snowshoes. There's one military-type boot print visible in one photo, and the residue of a ski track in another. The flashlight on the tent and the items on the ground near the tent suggest the students were told to throw down their belongings and especially some of their protective clothing, probably at knife point. The other belongings on the snow by the cedar indicate a similar "shaking down" happened there--note the money on the ground there. I think the attackers may have even built the fire there.

Then I think they went back to the tent to look for something they thought the students had stolen and waited for the young people to die. Hence the ski pole that was cut--they'd used it to prop up the tent. Upon leaving the tent, they destroyed it so the students couldn't return to it.

I don't think cold killed any of them alone. I've hiked and camped in extreme temperatures, and if you stay active and your digits are protected, you can usually fight off hypothermia, especially in a group. I do think the first five were left to die in the cold, though, but only after being tied up.

I'm a professor at a college of criminal justice, so I tend to think in terms of crime scenes, but I think the event started as what may have looked to the students like a mugging. As for what they were looking for, that is a separate question.


You say and I quote ; ''I tend to think the Yuris got frostbite when they were hiding in the tree and before the killers returned to finish them off. I've always assumed that the three were trying to get back to the tent, but they also could have broken away from the group when they were being frogmarched down the hill.'' So how many attackers do you think were involved  ?  If it was a lot of attackers then I hardly think any of the Dyatlov Group would have been going anywhere in particular   !  If it was just one or two attackers then they were very brave or stupid, and I would have expected some of the Dyatlov Group to fight back and overpower those attackers.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 28, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
So the Yuris were hiding up a tree while the attackers started a fire? Or did they climb the tree after the attackers went after the 3 found on the slope?

Because of one of the Yuris' singed hair and both of them having burned clothing, I assume that they may have fallen out of the tree into the fire. I don't believe the burns were a result of them drying clothing on the stove pipe. How would you fit that into the attacker narrative?

You have excellent points about the boot and shortski snow prints and the theory explains why there's clothing scattered between tent and cedar. However, there was also clothing scattered between the cedar and ravine, supposedly so they could find their way back to the cedar???
 I don't know if you think they Ravine 4 escaped early on and tried to build a den or that they were marched into the ravine and the den was a setup? Zolotaryov and Dubinina's injuries apparently could not have been inflicted by another human being - the force was too great. Also in favour of the Rav 4 not being involved in the attack is the fact that they were wearing clothing that belonged to others that had assumedly died before them. What attackers would allow them to do that? Plus Zolotaryov's camera???

My only other question regarding the theory is that the only evidence of binding was on Igor's ankles I believe. In the autopsies, there is no mention of abrasions/bruises around wrists of all three and ankles of Zina and Rustem.

Thanks :)

Have you seen the photos of the Tree ?  Hardly a good hiding place  ! 
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Star man on March 28, 2019, 04:09:27 PM
If they were attacked by outsiders, why would they have left them with a flashlight, matches a knife and a camera?

Why did some have boots, others have hats, jackets while some had very little clothing?  Why did Rustem have one boot? 

Everything about the scene says that these guys left the tent in a hurry but were not forced into the winter night to die of cold by any attackers.

There is no evidence of any attackers and there is no motive that we can see.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 29, 2019, 12:55:42 AM
If they were attacked by outsiders, why would they have left them with a flashlight, matches a knife and a camera?
Well, did they found any flashlight at the cedar/ravine? How did they cut that HUGE three branch near the cedar and all of the small trees for the "den" with only a knife? How did the 2 Yurys died by freezing near the fire? Not in the fetal position? Were any photos on the camera?

Why did some have boots, others have hats, jackets while some had very little clothing?  Why did Rustem have one boot? 
Well, it was very cold in the tent and they decided to cut it from inside and walk down the slope with no shoes/clothes. That's what any normal person would do.

Everything about the scene says that these guys left the tent in a hurry but were not forced into the winter night to die of cold by any attackers.
There is no evidence of any attackers and there is no motive that we can see.
As I said, any normal person would leave a shelter (the tent)  to go outside with no shoes/good clothes ... and any murderer in this world, after killing, is not cleaning the evidences and is writing a letter to the police describing the murder and writing down his name and address and after this he put this letter on his victim.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on March 29, 2019, 09:06:31 AM
If it was murder - it was cold and calculated, and it was done by more than 1 or 2 people. Probably military or those with training....bc the women were untouched - I mean I hate to even go there, but if it were a group of Gulag escapees, that wouldn't have been the case. The motive would have been that the group witnessed something they shouldn't have??

It was covered up well in some areas (i.e. no tracks, save for the boot and partial ski print), however there are just too many open-ended questions...why would attackers let them have the freedom to have the items on them they had? Unless not all of them were marched out of the tent??

The scattered stuff at the cedar could have been due to items falling out of pockets as the clothes were being taken off the bodies, I suppose. However, I am at a loss as to why a jacket, a broken ski (as per radiogram only, so contentious) and a flashlight (as well as other items I think - an ice-ax) were left in between the tent and the cedar. I would have thought these would have been essential to take with? Unless they were running and dropped the items to be faster? However the "orderly footprints" refute this panicked exit of the tent.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 29, 2019, 03:00:24 PM
If they were attacked by outsiders, why would they have left them with a flashlight, matches a knife and a camera?

Why did some have boots, others have hats, jackets while some had very little clothing?  Why did Rustem have one boot? 

Everything about the scene says that these guys left the tent in a hurry but were not forced into the winter night to die of cold by any attackers.

There is no evidence of any attackers and there is no motive that we can see.

Regards

Star man

Well put. Its important that we remind ourselves of these fundamental points because without much evidence to go by we need to keep our feet firmly on the ground so to speak. Its been put before in the Forum but you are correct to mention this again here. There is nothing that shouts out 'ATTACKERS' driving the Dyatlov Group from the Tent, and no motive. Nothing. Unless any attacker or attackers were something other than human  !  ?  Feet on the ground here.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on March 29, 2019, 06:53:11 PM
Broad skis don't necessarily leave tracks. One of the investigators, I'm not sure which one, said that he thought people on skis could have swooped in on the hikers from the ice about the tent. They could have also worn snowshoes, but those aren't very fast. I grew up in the far north, and for winter orienteering they taught us tricks for disguising our tracks, including having spruce bows tied to boots/skis/snowshoes. It was just for fun, but the skills were obviously some residue of conflict between settlers and Indians over fishing and hunting rights. I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.

When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant. Unfortunately I have been a couple of times since I am an American of a certain age. They swat or swipe things out of your hands or grab them. For instance, they want a wallet but don't get a watch since it's hidden in your cuff.  I think the assailants made them drop items that they saw while still preserving the element or surprise; some other items they didn't see since they were hidden, and it was night and they were on the move. I don't think the attackers were perfect--we're talking about criminals, after all.

So if we are looking for motive and opportunity, one of the Mansi noted that there were five "wild" Khanty near the pass. From a North American perspective, the Mansi are the Ojibwe, and the Khanty are the Sioux. Mansi got jobs as bounty hunters for the gulags whereas the Khanty resisted starting in the 30s. They were terribly oppressed, forced into collectivization, and criminals and dissidents moved into their territory away from the European borders. Plus their territory is mined, and their religion is based on rocks or "idols" in addition to worship of the bear. Then Soviet kids start criss-crossing their land since they couldn't travel abroad. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and a very similar even happened in 1933, a "collective sacrifice" involving 7 Soviet men who were killed with rope and sleds in retaliation for the Communist woman who visited a sacred island to try to convert them to Marxist-Leninism: http://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a1532.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0xbE6g4dcRIW_oNSI_wME59F0vUYN39kpBJnXm3PkfNYelpsm7O5DoD6Y

So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces, at least once you removed the ropes. (Most Khanty men and boys had been in the gulag at some point if they had been alive in the 30s). Maybe the last four were put in the den and a sled was run over the top of them after they were covered in snow? That is, after their bodies were laid in the stream face-down to disguise the ritual disfiguration. Those injuries are the hardest to account for as being results of conflict with other humans. And another question is whether the conflict with the Khanty was ongoing as late as 1959, but my impression is that there was a low-level ongoing war between the Soviets and the Ostyuks. There are still problems with the Manpupner rocks and the Komi people, after all: access is going to be shut off because tourists are climbing these "idols" and taking samples of them in spite of the two guards from that tribe who guard the site.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: NkZ on March 30, 2019, 02:51:20 AM
Thank you for this very interesting document!
There are (as far as i have counted) 3 mansi witness who mention the "wild five": Gorbushin -that Kurikov told him so, Kurikov -but to say he didn't say it, and another one i don't find anymore. The more i read the Mansi witness the more they are suspicious in downplaying their knowledge of the region ... They also seem to be the only ones who cannot come with a clue of how the tourists could have died...
So maybe there was a coverup to prevent a new revolt" by native nations that could bring attention to an area full of industrial and military "secrets" -and conveniently drive away from it potential spies. Parents of the deceased provided the arguments: lack of proper equipment and safety procedures -> let's fire the people in charge , bad decisions by Dyatlov to stay in a place full of "unknown compelling forces" -> RIP.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 30, 2019, 07:32:41 AM
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 (https://i.ibb.co/n1YgY1C/semyonhats.png) (https://ibb.co/GM8x8MT)


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 02:16:55 PM
Broad skis don't necessarily leave tracks. One of the investigators, I'm not sure which one, said that he thought people on skis could have swooped in on the hikers from the ice about the tent. They could have also worn snowshoes, but those aren't very fast. I grew up in the far north, and for winter orienteering they taught us tricks for disguising our tracks, including having spruce bows tied to boots/skis/snowshoes. It was just for fun, but the skills were obviously some residue of conflict between settlers and Indians over fishing and hunting rights. I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.

When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant. Unfortunately I have been a couple of times since I am an American of a certain age. They swat or swipe things out of your hands or grab them. For instance, they want a wallet but don't get a watch since it's hidden in your cuff.  I think the assailants made them drop items that they saw while still preserving the element or surprise; some other items they didn't see since they were hidden, and it was night and they were on the move. I don't think the attackers were perfect--we're talking about criminals, after all.

So if we are looking for motive and opportunity, one of the Mansi noted that there were five "wild" Khanty near the pass. From a North American perspective, the Mansi are the Ojibwe, and the Khanty are the Sioux. Mansi got jobs as bounty hunters for the gulags whereas the Khanty resisted starting in the 30s. They were terribly oppressed, forced into collectivization, and criminals and dissidents moved into their territory away from the European borders. Plus their territory is mined, and their religion is based on rocks or "idols" in addition to worship of the bear. Then Soviet kids start criss-crossing their land since they couldn't travel abroad. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and a very similar even happened in 1933, a "collective sacrifice" involving 7 Soviet men who were killed with rope and sleds in retaliation for the Communist woman who visited a sacred island to try to convert them to Marxist-Leninism: http://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a1532.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0xbE6g4dcRIW_oNSI_wME59F0vUYN39kpBJnXm3PkfNYelpsm7O5DoD6Y

So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces, at least once you removed the ropes. (Most Khanty men and boys had been in the gulag at some point if they had been alive in the 30s). Maybe the last four were put in the den and a sled was run over the top of them after they were covered in snow? That is, after their bodies were laid in the stream face-down to disguise the ritual disfiguration. Those injuries are the hardest to account for as being results of conflict with other humans. And another question is whether the conflict with the Khanty was ongoing as late as 1959, but my impression is that there was a low-level ongoing war between the Soviets and the Ostyuks. There are still problems with the Manpupner rocks and the Komi people, after all: access is going to be shut off because tourists are climbing these "idols" and taking samples of them in spite of the two guards from that tribe who guard the site.


You say and I quote ;   ''I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.''

''When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant.''

If any attackers came back to clean up the scene then they didnt do a very good job  ! ? And yes its true that many crimes are fast, in fact very fast. But just as many crimes can be slow, very slow.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on March 30, 2019, 02:32:20 PM
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 (https://i.ibb.co/n1YgY1C/semyonhats.png) (https://ibb.co/GM8x8MT)


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?

Its a good point. Its a shame that the photos are not that clear. Obviously some people would be a bit distressed to see very up close detailed photos. But I suppose we have to take it that that is the best quality photos that were made, or certainly made for public consumption !  ?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Puchiko on March 30, 2019, 03:19:29 PM
You're not making any sense. These photos weren't meant for public consumption, they were made for the purposes of the investigation and only declassified in the nineties. The investigators could never have imagined that the Soviet regime would fall one day and the case files would be made public. They aren't intentionally low quality, it's simply a not very good Russian camera from the fifties combined with the fact that we're looking at a scan of the photograph (as opposed to an image developed from the camera film itself).
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2019, 12:00:47 PM
You're not making any sense. These photos weren't meant for public consumption, they were made for the purposes of the investigation and only declassified in the nineties. The investigators could never have imagined that the Soviet regime would fall one day and the case files would be made public. They aren't intentionally low quality, it's simply a not very good Russian camera from the fifties combined with the fact that we're looking at a scan of the photograph (as opposed to an image developed from the camera film itself).

Apologies, I worded it a bit awkwardly. I meant that the Photos that we have been allowed to see, we being the public, are presumably the best quality available to us. There may be other photos and they may be better quality but they are not meant for public consumption.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 01, 2019, 05:06:11 PM
Broad skis don't necessarily leave tracks. One of the investigators, I'm not sure which one, said that he thought people on skis could have swooped in on the hikers from the ice about the tent. They could have also worn snowshoes, but those aren't very fast. I grew up in the far north, and for winter orienteering they taught us tricks for disguising our tracks, including having spruce bows tied to boots/skis/snowshoes. It was just for fun, but the skills were obviously some residue of conflict between settlers and Indians over fishing and hunting rights. I think the main thing is that the attackers came back later to clean up the scene.

When a crime begins, it's really fast. If you've ever been mugged, you know it happens in an instant. Unfortunately I have been a couple of times since I am an American of a certain age. They swat or swipe things out of your hands or grab them. For instance, they want a wallet but don't get a watch since it's hidden in your cuff.  I think the assailants made them drop items that they saw while still preserving the element or surprise; some other items they didn't see since they were hidden, and it was night and they were on the move. I don't think the attackers were perfect--we're talking about criminals, after all.

So if we are looking for motive and opportunity, one of the Mansi noted that there were five "wild" Khanty near the pass. From a North American perspective, the Mansi are the Ojibwe, and the Khanty are the Sioux. Mansi got jobs as bounty hunters for the gulags whereas the Khanty resisted starting in the 30s. They were terribly oppressed, forced into collectivization, and criminals and dissidents moved into their territory away from the European borders. Plus their territory is mined, and their religion is based on rocks or "idols" in addition to worship of the bear. Then Soviet kids start criss-crossing their land since they couldn't travel abroad. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, and a very similar even happened in 1933, a "collective sacrifice" involving 7 Soviet men who were killed with rope and sleds in retaliation for the Communist woman who visited a sacred island to try to convert them to Marxist-Leninism: http://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a1532.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0xbE6g4dcRIW_oNSI_wME59F0vUYN39kpBJnXm3PkfNYelpsm7O5DoD6Y

So I think there were probably 3-5 attackers. There are three separate crime scenes, and it's unclear how everything happened except that the den group lived the longest. I think the attackers came back three separate times since they had hoped the hikers would die from the cold: the old gulag trick where you don't leave any traces, at least once you removed the ropes. (Most Khanty men and boys had been in the gulag at some point if they had been alive in the 30s). Maybe the last four were put in the den and a sled was run over the top of them after they were covered in snow? That is, after their bodies were laid in the stream face-down to disguise the ritual disfiguration. Those injuries are the hardest to account for as being results of conflict with other humans. And another question is whether the conflict with the Khanty was ongoing as late as 1959, but my impression is that there was a low-level ongoing war between the Soviets and the Ostyuks. There are still problems with the Manpupner rocks and the Komi people, after all: access is going to be shut off because tourists are climbing these "idols" and taking samples of them in spite of the two guards from that tribe who guard the site.

I am trying to find information about these said ritual disfigurations of the dead in khanty culture, but nothing like this appears in google. All i can find is the ritual of the bear. Could you please send me links to a respectful source stating this information , could be in russian too ?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 01, 2019, 05:57:33 PM
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 (https://i.ibb.co/n1YgY1C/semyonhats.png) (https://ibb.co/GM8x8MT)


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?

Good observation. Indeed he has no hat at all  . But I don't see any hats nearby too,and the stream seems running too fast to be possible of hats to stay there seperately from the body .. Somebody had put two random hats on the head of Zolototarev, but why?
Also I am still questioning why on this photo Kolevatov is obviously without eyes, but in his autopsy is written that eyeballs are preset ???? And we have no phots of him in the morgue. .. None of Tibo too,and in his autopsy eyes are not mentioned at all, but we see him in a black plastic bag that his eyes are alright,closed and he is the only one with whole face. Is it possible they switched Kolevatov and Tibo in the morgue by mistake ? And to be that Kolevatov is the one with fractured skull and Tibo with neck wound eyeballs present.. ... What a mess!
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: CyberShell on April 01, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time. But, where are the pictures of Alexander and Nikolai in the morgue like is it lost or something?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 02, 2019, 05:10:41 AM
This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time. But, where are the pictures of Alexander and Nikolai in the morgue like is it lost or something?

We have only one photo of Dubinina and Zolotarev and somewhere I read that when the said photo of Luda emerged in internet the living relatives of her were quite upset. So maybe the photos of Tibo and Kolevatov were too gruesome after thawing them in morgue and there are still living relatives who have opposed sreading their photos in the net. As far as I know Kolevatov sister is still alive .
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 02, 2019, 11:00:58 AM
Ya - this "redressing" of the corpses is confusing things badly. Now it calls into question the taking of the clothes of the already deceased by the living.
It makes it even harder to establish a timeline of events.

Ehtnisba - this makes sense about the photos and respecting the family. Do you think there morgue pictures of Thibo and Kolevatov exist and simply have not been released???

The eyeball question is confounding - perhaps you're right and they did mix up the bodies? Its interesting to note that Nicolay's one side is in worse shape than the other; note the eyeball is depressed inside the skull, while the other has the eyelid still - this confirms the fact that the water sped up the decomposition (as I'm assuming the force of the flowing water impacted that side of his face first):

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dubinina-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1.jpg

Here is my VERY embarrassing sketch (try not to laugh):


 

(https://i.ibb.co/PjSyQL8/20190402-124946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W5TXth1)



(https://i.ibb.co/vhkpKLT/20190402-125010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8b9qSPf)

Nigel - what do you think?? I know you thought perhaps Thibo's head was at Semyon and Kolevatov's feet in the ravine. Does my pic make sense??
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 03:13:30 AM
Ya - this "redressing" of the corpses is confusing things badly. Now it calls into question the taking of the clothes of the already deceased by the living.
It makes it even harder to establish a timeline of events.

Ehtnisba - this makes sense about the photos and respecting the family. Do you think there morgue pictures of Thibo and Kolevatov exist and simply have not been released???

The eyeball question is confounding - perhaps you're right and they did mix up the bodies? Its interesting to note that Nicolay's one side is in worse shape than the other; note the eyeball is depressed inside the skull, while the other has the eyelid still - this confirms the fact that the water sped up the decomposition (as I'm assuming the force of the flowing water impacted that side of his face first):

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dubinina-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1.jpg (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dubinina-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem-1.jpg)

Here is my VERY embarrassing sketch (try not to laugh):


 

(https://i.ibb.co/PjSyQL8/20190402-124946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W5TXth1)



(https://i.ibb.co/vhkpKLT/20190402-125010.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8b9qSPf)

Nigel - what do you think?? I know you thought perhaps Thibo's head was at Semyon and Kolevatov's feet in the ravine. Does my pic make sense??
Yes I don't agree with your orientation of Nicolai wrt Semyon?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 03, 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 07:57:24 AM
Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 03, 2019, 09:10:27 AM
Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.

Well yes it is actually , you are right. His face is under water both ways...Even fully under water ompared to Zolotryov and Kolevatov,,,so Tibo has to have worse mechanical damage on his eyes and soft tissues compared to other 2,, so rav 4 face damages are really random , this makes them suspicious and mysterious
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 09:16:16 AM
Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.

Well yes it is actually , you are right. His face is under water both ways...Even fully under water ompared to Zolotryov and Kolevatov,,,so Tibo has to have worse mechanical damage on his eyes and soft tissues compared to other 2,, so rav 4 face damages are really random , this makes them suspicious and mysterious
Cue cattle mutilations....  kewl1
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 03, 2019, 09:32:16 AM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 09:50:35 AM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 03, 2019, 10:00:47 AM
Its been stated before that she possibly had her mouth open, while the others didn't and that is why there is more damage to the inside of her mouth.

Also, she looks like she was lying directly in sort of a "mini" waterfall at a lower level parallel into the stream of said mini waterfall, while the others were perpendicular with back of heads facing the flow (all at what would appear to be "stream bed level" as opposed to Dubinina who is positioned at a lower level).
I think this has something to do with the mechanical damage WAB was talking about perhaps??

Then there is the possibility she was hit with such a force she somehow bit her own tongue off - but if that was the case her jaw and teeth would likely have been damaged right? She would have had to have yanked her own tongue out (floor muscles and all) with her own teeth as her jaw was closed down with such a force.
Seems unlikely though.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 03, 2019, 10:05:31 AM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?

Try reading https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/12/cattle-mutilations-getting-past-the-sacred-cows/


and count up how many times there's a corresponding link with the DPI case
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 03, 2019, 04:01:01 PM
Hmm now when seeing Tibo in the black bag and position of his hand I think than Nigel has mistaken his position. If his hand is on his chest that means that in the stream his head is somewhere under the water but he is lying on his back in the same orientation as Zolotaryov and Kolevatov....
WAB's explanation of mechanical damage from thawed snow and water on the soft parts of faces makes sense . It is actually the first theory about the missing eyes of rav 4 that I can say sounds true,,,cause all others about rodents and bacteria are let's say too far fetched and unprofessional .


Isn't Nicolai's head underwater either way?


Lyudmila lost part of the left side of her face, lips as well as eyes and tongue. That's a lot of mechanical damage which the others don't demonstrate. She got special attention one way or another.

Well yes it is actually , you are right. His face is under water both ways...Even fully under water ompared to Zolotryov and Kolevatov,,,so Tibo has to have worse mechanical damage on his eyes and soft tissues compared to other 2,, so rav 4 face damages are really random , this makes them suspicious and mysterious
Cue cattle mutilations....  kewl1

Cue My post on Animal and Cattle Mutilations
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 03, 2019, 04:01:47 PM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations

Why dont you believe that there is a connection ?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 04, 2019, 03:47:50 AM
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 (https://i.ibb.co/n1YgY1C/semyonhats.png) (https://ibb.co/GM8x8MT)


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Just found this :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 04, 2019, 11:50:52 AM
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 (https://i.ibb.co/n1YgY1C/semyonhats.png) (https://ibb.co/GM8x8MT)


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Just found this :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream.

Yes, there doesnt seem to be any head ware on the heads of those 2 bodies in the photo. And yet the Autopsy Report contradicts that. Could someone have mistakenly picked up head ware and put it on body ! ? Or may be there was head ware but it fell off and was put back on later  ! ?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 04, 2019, 01:56:19 PM
A lot is made of Semyon's autopsy report that he wore two hats :-"On the examination table there is a male body, clothed as follows: on the head there is a black fur winter cap with ear flaps decorated with black fur and a red woollen ski cap with three light stripes."

However that is not how he was found :-

 (https://i.ibb.co/n1YgY1C/semyonhats.png) (https://ibb.co/GM8x8MT)


So presumably they found these hats nearby and put them on his head? So we'll never know who was wearing them in the den?
Just found this :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-341-343)And two bodies lie embracing, there is nothing on their heads, not all hair is left on their heads, one of them is wearing a storm jacket, the same for the second, what else it's on them can only be established after lifting their bodies from the stream.

Yes, there doesnt seem to be any head ware on the heads of those 2 bodies in the photo. And yet the Autopsy Report contradicts that. Could someone have mistakenly picked up head ware and put it on body ! ? Or may be there was head ware but it fell off and was put back on later  ! ?
They are in this photo, so probably someone put them on his head for transportation. :-
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-bodies_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on April 05, 2019, 12:09:31 AM
I think it's interesting that people have uncovered the possibility of re-dressing the corpses, even if it's only to put caps on them. It makes me wonder about our previous speculation the "mystery body" being Alex K before a coat was put on him and he was laid in the stream. Placing him in the stream would have helped disguise the facial wounds, but I have no idea why anyone would re-dress corpses. Even putting caps on them seems strange when Semyon and Alex K obviously have bare heads in the stream.

To Ehtnitsba's question about Khanty disfigurement rituals: look at pages 238 and 240 of the article link I posted. It isn't really about Khanty disfiguring Soviets after death but about murdering them in a "collective sacrifice." The incident in 1933 involved seven young Communist men. The description of the murder is a little vague, but ropes were used. The essay also has the first confirmation that the incident of the Soviet woman intruding on a Khanty sacred island actually existed. The murder of the men was in retaliation for that intrusion. Her name is given as Shnaider (no Christian name offered). It doesn't mention what happened to her, though. The rumors had been that she had had her tongue and eyes cut out and that she that she had been tied up and thrown in the lake (it was Lake Tum), but this article can't confirm any of that.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Puchiko on April 05, 2019, 04:54:44 AM
I think it's interesting that people have uncovered the possibility of re-dressing the corpses, even if it's only to put caps on them. It makes me wonder about our previous speculation the "mystery body" being Alex K before a coat was put on him and he was laid in the stream. Placing him in the stream would have helped disguise the facial wounds, but I have no idea why anyone would re-dress corpses. Even putting caps on them seems strange when Semyon and Alex K obviously have bare heads in the stream.

Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess. A non-state murderer might have some motivation to just hide the bodies under snow and hope they'll be found as late as possible, but that doesn't really correspond to the rest of the facts.

It's surprisingly difficult to put a coat on a corpse because of rigor mortis. I do think the newly discovered photo is not from the Dyatlov incident at all, but of course, I don't know and anything's possible with the case.

So why did they put the caps on? Absolutely no idea.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 05, 2019, 05:39:59 AM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 05, 2019, 12:26:48 PM
I think it's interesting that people have uncovered the possibility of re-dressing the corpses, even if it's only to put caps on them. It makes me wonder about our previous speculation the "mystery body" being Alex K before a coat was put on him and he was laid in the stream. Placing him in the stream would have helped disguise the facial wounds, but I have no idea why anyone would re-dress corpses. Even putting caps on them seems strange when Semyon and Alex K obviously have bare heads in the stream.

To Ehtnitsba's question about Khanty disfigurement rituals: look at pages 238 and 240 of the article link I posted. It isn't really about Khanty disfiguring Soviets after death but about murdering them in a "collective sacrifice." The incident in 1933 involved seven young Communist men. The description of the murder is a little vague, but ropes were used. The essay also has the first confirmation that the incident of the Soviet woman intruding on a Khanty sacred island actually existed. The murder of the men was in retaliation for that intrusion. Her name is given as Shnaider (no Christian name offered). It doesn't mention what happened to her, though. The rumors had been that she had had her tongue and eyes cut out and that she that she had been tied up and thrown in the lake (it was Lake Tum), but this article can't confirm any of that.

Interesting about the rumors that someone had their tongue and eyes cut out. Do you have any sources for these rumors ?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 05, 2019, 12:30:53 PM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 05, 2019, 12:46:28 PM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Puchiko on April 05, 2019, 02:57:31 PM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, but a tank in the middle of winter woods is not a plausible narrative :D ! For a moment I though you were just joking with your ravine death theory, but you're serious.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 05, 2019, 03:24:02 PM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, but a tank in the middle of winter woods is not a plausible narrative :D ! For a moment I though you were just joking with your ravine death theory, but you're serious.

I've shown that the injury profile for the ravine four fits being crushed by something passing across the top of the den with a narrow width of say a foot/30cm.
They were using all terrain vehicles in Antarctica in the same period - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Antarctic_Expedition If the Russian military wanted to put vehicles on that mountain then it could happen, the Mil Mi-6 could lift 12 tonnes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6
Or it was Ivanov's fire orbs. There's not much else that fits. Except maybe a giant snowball... bigjoke
That's the narrative that fits the facts.

Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on April 05, 2019, 06:31:30 PM
Sarapuk: from what I remember, the rumor about the Soviet woman having her eyes and tongue removed by Khanty was in one or more of the Dyatlov books but without any citations. Just hearsay. If you look at the "Theories" section that Teddy has put together, you will see under the "Mansi" section that she mentions a rumor of a female Soviet geologist being killed for trespassing on sacred space but notes that there is no confirmation, which there wasn't. But now we know she wasn't a geologist but a Soviet representative of some sort reaching out to the more secluded Khanty.


I'm afriad I don't speak a Slavic language or even know the Cyrillic alphabet. But now that we know some more details--the event was in November of 1933 at Lake Tum and the woman's name was Shnaider--maybe we could find out some more information? Could the people who know Russian look around for any evidence of this incident? I have read Soviet newspapers and know they are less than transparent, but maybe something has been studied by contemporary historians or anthropologists? I have found that anthropologists are more interested in this ethnic group. I have access to a scholarly library and database through my job, so it you send me any details, I can look them up. I couldn't even find Lake Tum on an English map: I suspect it is very small, but it would be in the Khanty-Mansy Autonomous Region and have an island in it. I'm including a link about a holy Kanty lake an ongoing conflict with the tribe over people wanting to exploit the area's oil resources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/17/reindeer-herder-oil-excavators-siberia

Someone made a really interesting comment that the Soviets wanted to cover up this incident since they didn't want ongoing enthnic conflict since there was so much nuclear activity, mining, and other functions of the industrial-military complex in this area. I suspect that is what happened. If the KGB was responsibile for the original incident, it would look much different and not as messy. If there was any re-dressing of corpses (and I can't imagine putting a coat on a corpse with rigor mortis) I suspect it was done to hide the facial injuries that would have shown obvious signs of some form of retribution.


NB: I am ordering a book on Khanty ceremonies through the library at work, and I will report back what I find.


The source about the "collective murder" notes the use of sleds, so I am wondering if hunters drove a sled over people tied up in den with snow piled on top of them so no extrernal marks would be apparent.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on April 05, 2019, 07:24:08 PM
My mistake: it was Lake Num-To, and it is still forbidden for women to visit the sacred island there. The trouble started when a Soviet fishing collective was fishing in the lake, which was also not permitted at time. I apolologize for the wall of text, but here is the relevant passage from the article. What do people think about the detail about the Soviet men being "throttled by long ropes around their necks"? Any similarities to the injuries of the Dyatlov group? (The author of the below is Art Leete, "Religious Reactions to Power in Siberia"):

At the end of the meeting, two shamans organized a reindeer sacrifice (pory) and fifteen animals were killed. After the ceremony the shamans announced that the spirits (lunkhs) approved the decisions of the meeting and ordered that nobody was allowed to cooperate with the Russians. Those who met the Russians’ demands would be punished (GMPICH, Loskutov 5, 1. 6; Golovnev 1995, 168; Balzer 1999a, 111).

There were several more similar sacrificial rituals held from 1932 to 1933. In 1933, members of the fishing cooperative from the Kazym culture base began to fish on Lake Num-To. The local people informed them that this was taboo.6 Russian agitbrigades were sent to the area (GAHMAO, Astrakhantseva 1934, 7–8; Balzer 1999a, 112–13). One of the delegations reached Num-To in November 1933. A member of this group, a female communist named Shnaider, went to the sacred island in the middle of the Lake Num-To, ignoring the local peoples’ beliefs concerning a taboo on women visiting this place. Her action deeply hurt the religious feelings of the local people.

Then the Soviet delegation moved to the tundra belt, and on 3 December they met the Khanty and Nenets. On 4 December members of the agitbrigade were taken prisoner by the local people (GAHMAO, Astrakhantseva 1934, 10; Balzer 1999a, 113–14). The Khanty and Nenets held a shamanic séance after which the shamans stated that gods had ordered them to offer the captured Russians as a sacrifice. The Russians were tied up and taken to a hill by reindeer sleds. They were throttled by long ropes tied around their necks. After the killings, the Khanty and Nenets sacrificed seven reindeer and held a traditional ceremony (Budarin 1968, 226; GAHMAO, Astrakhantseva 1934, p 12–13; GMPICH, Loskutov 1, p 24; Loskutov 9, p 8; Balzer 1999a, 114).
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 06, 2019, 12:58:03 PM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

Try this link for examples  ;   http://www.florisbex.com/papers/jurix11.pdf   You are creating a story that does not explain the observed facts and is not supported by arguments based on evidence.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 06, 2019, 01:04:05 PM
Yes, it indeed seems very strange. If we consider the scenario that some part of the Soviet establishment was responsible for their deaths and staged the scene as a cover up: it doesn't make any sense. The military would have simply cleaned up the scene and disposed of the bodies and all their belongings (likely in an industrial incinerator), nine hikers disappearing would be strange but certainly not as suspicious as this mess.
Because they could tell from the contents of the tent that it was a party of nine, but they only had 5 bodies. The remaining four had been crushed under (say) one metre of snow and there was no sign of that.

A good narrative is that the Soviet authorities were there that night doing something that was top secret and this "top secret thing" might be connected to ordering Ivanov to stop investigating, stop talking about fire orbs and invent a coverup (or he knew what would happen). Then they HAD to find the remaining four to know that the secret was safe. So you then have a team of 30 men supplied by helicopter for three months approx half of them are KGB including officers of the rank of Captain and even Colonel. Anyone think it's strange that an officer of the rank of Colonel personally lead digging dead bodies out of the snow and evidence like a notebook has disappeared? It all fits, dead men don't talk, but they couldn't rely on the missing 4 to succumb to the winter. They had to find them, the expense was irrelevant. Once they had the last four bodies the case was shut down very quickly and the area closed.

You bring up this Top Secret thing but what if anything do you base this on ! ? There is certainly nothing reported or recorded that even remotely suggests any kind of Military involvement in the demise of the Dyatlov group.
Nothing remotely suggests it apart from a plausible narrative of rocket fuel and crushing by a tracked vehicle. Hmmm.

I'm sorry, but a tank in the middle of winter woods is not a plausible narrative :D ! For a moment I though you were just joking with your ravine death theory, but you're serious.

I've shown that the injury profile for the ravine four fits being crushed by something passing across the top of the den with a narrow width of say a foot/30cm.
They were using all terrain vehicles in Antarctica in the same period - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Antarctic_Expedition If the Russian military wanted to put vehicles on that mountain then it could happen, the Mil Mi-6 could lift 12 tonnes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-6
Or it was Ivanov's fire orbs. There's not much else that fits. Except maybe a giant snowball... bigjoke
That's the narrative that fits the facts.

Thanks for the links to heavy duty Military snow vehicles. If any of those vehicles had have been responsible for the deaths of the 4 at the so called Ravine then Iam very surprised that all the bodies were found all in one piece,and not crushed beyond recognition. And even a giant snowball wouldnt have been responsible. As for the back to the Fire Orbs, sounds like desperate measures, to find a theory.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 06, 2019, 01:16:50 PM
Sarapuk: from what I remember, the rumor about the Soviet woman having her eyes and tongue removed by Khanty was in one or more of the Dyatlov books but without any citations. Just hearsay. If you look at the "Theories" section that Teddy has put together, you will see under the "Mansi" section that she mentions a rumor of a female Soviet geologist being killed for trespassing on sacred space but notes that there is no confirmation, which there wasn't. But now we know she wasn't a geologist but a Soviet representative of some sort reaching out to the more secluded Khanty.


I'm afriad I don't speak a Slavic language or even know the Cyrillic alphabet. But now that we know some more details--the event was in November of 1933 at Lake Tum and the woman's name was Shnaider--maybe we could find out some more information? Could the people who know Russian look around for any evidence of this incident? I have read Soviet newspapers and know they are less than transparent, but maybe something has been studied by contemporary historians or anthropologists? I have found that anthropologists are more interested in this ethnic group. I have access to a scholarly library and database through my job, so it you send me any details, I can look them up. I couldn't even find Lake Tum on an English map: I suspect it is very small, but it would be in the Khanty-Mansy Autonomous Region and have an island in it. I'm including a link about a holy Kanty lake an ongoing conflict with the tribe over people wanting to exploit the area's oil resources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/17/reindeer-herder-oil-excavators-siberia

Someone made a really interesting comment that the Soviets wanted to cover up this incident since they didn't want ongoing enthnic conflict since there was so much nuclear activity, mining, and other functions of the industrial-military complex in this area. I suspect that is what happened. If the KGB was responsibile for the original incident, it would look much different and not as messy. If there was any re-dressing of corpses (and I can't imagine putting a coat on a corpse with rigor mortis) I suspect it was done to hide the facial injuries that would have shown obvious signs of some form of retribution.


NB: I am ordering a book on Khanty ceremonies through the library at work, and I will report back what I find.


The source about the "collective murder" notes the use of sleds, so I am wondering if hunters drove a sled over people tied up in den with snow piled on top of them so no extrernal marks would be apparent.

Ok. I know that there are excellent Museums and Libraries in Russia that deal with the Mansi and other Tribes, but it is almost certain that most of the stuff will be in the Russian language. Thats where we are at a disadvantage. I have a Russian friend with contacts in Yekaterinburg, known as Sverdlovsk during the USSR period. His brother also went to the same college as the Dyatlov Group. Everyone in that area seems to know something about the Dyatlov tragedy. And just as in the West they all have their own theories about what happened. No one theory stands out.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nordlander on April 06, 2019, 10:52:12 PM
I found some more details about a possible precedent, the Khanty collective sacrifice. We now have a name full name for the woman who transgressed on the sacred island: Polina Schneider (her name is transliterated differently). And she WAS murdered. There are apparently no Soviet records of her death, but anthropologists interviewed a lot of Khanty who remember the incident since it sparked a revolt--that and forcing Khanty children into Communist schools. Schneider was the head of the Ural Communist Party Regional Committee.

I haven't found any confirmation of the rumors that she was disfigured first. There is a Russian movie about her, called "Angels of Revolution." Here's a review of it, and there are obviously more in Russian. The leader of the group of Communists who were slaughtered was one Pyotr Astakhatsev, the head of an agit-brigade hunting Khanty who refused collectivization and had headed into the taiga. The collective sacrifice took place on Dec. 4, 1933, after the brigade was taken hostage. The numbers differ, but this source says there were 8 Russians (!). I tried to cut and paste the details about the murder of the Russians, but the source wouldn't let me. Here is the link, and the important information is on page 14. The Khanty shaman had the Russians tied to sleds and taken to the top of a hill. Then they were stripped naked and ropes were wrapped around their necks. All the tribesmen pulled the ropes so they would all be responsible. Astakhatsev's wife also claims that they were scalped. Their bodies were then placed on the ice of a lake.


The Dyatlov tragedy clearly differs in many way, but a few things leaped out at me: top of a hill, stripped, tied with ropes, use of sleds, strangled, placed in water or ice, disfigured. Usually the sacrifice reindeer during the solstices, but they carried out this deed under the direction of a shaman since they believed the Russians were going to make war. Plus the shaman told them the gods demanded recompense for the pollution of their sacred island by a woman (The contamination is said to come from menstruation). The trauma to the hyoid bones and the petechiae on Zina's eyelids all suggest possible strangulation. What do people think?

On a side note, Khanty leaders who signed on with the Soviets were given snowmobiles, but in the late 50s they were still probably the WWII ones on skis that were used to fight the Nazis, the Aerosanis.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Pyotr+Astrakhantsev+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8XMR94CR&sig=ACfU3U1Ybb-Wn6HmsYo1Cet9_NHyN7UOuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitoZXJ3LrhAhWKneAKHYfYChoQ6AEwCXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pyotr%20Astrakhantsev%20Khanty&f=false
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 08, 2019, 10:20:47 AM
I found some more details about a possible precedent, the Khanty collective sacrifice. We now have a name full name for the woman who transgressed on the sacred island: Polina Schneider (her name is transliterated differently). And she WAS murdered. There are apparently no Soviet records of her death, but anthropologists interviewed a lot of Khanty who remember the incident since it sparked a revolt--that and forcing Khanty children into Communist schools. Schneider was the head of the Ural Communist Party Regional Committee.

I haven't found any confirmation of the rumors that she was disfigured first. There is a Russian movie about her, called "Angels of Revolution." Here's a review of it, and there are obviously more in Russian. The leader of the group of Communists who were slaughtered was one Pyotr Astakhatsev, the head of an agit-brigade hunting Khanty who refused collectivization and had headed into the taiga. The collective sacrifice took place on Dec. 4, 1933, after the brigade was taken hostage. The numbers differ, but this source says there were 8 Russians (!). I tried to cut and paste the details about the murder of the Russians, but the source wouldn't let me. Here is the link, and the important information is on page 14. The Khanty shaman had the Russians tied to sleds and taken to the top of a hill. Then they were stripped naked and ropes were wrapped around their necks. All the tribesmen pulled the ropes so they would all be responsible. Astakhatsev's wife also claims that they were scalped. Their bodies were then placed on the ice of a lake.


The Dyatlov tragedy clearly differs in many way, but a few things leaped out at me: top of a hill, stripped, tied with ropes, use of sleds, strangled, placed in water or ice, disfigured. Usually the sacrifice reindeer during the solstices, but they carried out this deed under the direction of a shaman since they believed the Russians were going to make war. Plus the shaman told them the gods demanded recompense for the pollution of their sacred island by a woman (The contamination is said to come from menstruation). The trauma to the hyoid bones and the petechiae on Zina's eyelids all suggest possible strangulation. What do people think?

On a side note, Khanty leaders who signed on with the Soviets were given snowmobiles, but in the late 50s they were still probably the WWII ones on skis that were used to fight the Nazis, the Aerosanis.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Pyotr+Astrakhantsev+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8XMR94CR&sig=ACfU3U1Ybb-Wn6HmsYo1Cet9_NHyN7UOuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitoZXJ3LrhAhWKneAKHYfYChoQ6AEwCXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pyotr%20Astrakhantsev%20Khanty&f=false


I have to say that I dont find anything in the Dyatlov Case that suggests RITUAL KILLINGS. There were 9 bodies. 2 of them appeared to have been mutilated. But not by another Human.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 08, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
I think I might be with Sarapuk on this.

It would be the neatest scenario and I haven't ruled out murder altogether - however, the idea of it being a ritualistic killing means that one sacrifice shouldn't differ from another, right?

Plus there's nothing about exactly what occurred to Polina's eyes and tongue and how would this scenario explain the broken ribs of Dubinina and Semyon? They were supposed to be caused by a force no other human being could inflict??
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 08, 2019, 01:07:02 PM
They didn't die at the hands of people or animals.
Why?
Because of the investment the state made to find all of the bodies. Thirty men supplied by helicopter for 3 months, multiple probing of 1500 hectares of ground, officers up to the rank of Colonel personally lifting three month old corpses out of the mud. A team of KGB who always wore their pistols. Another team of young men all dressed in identical sheepskin jackets. Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to invent a coverup (or else) and front it to the relatives. They even built a dam at the bottom of the ravine to ensure that the spring thaw didn't wash the bodies away.
It was all about finding the bodies, not solving a crime.

Once they had all the bodies they wrapped the whole thing up and confiscated evidence.

So the solution to the mystery begins by asking, why did they need to find all the bodies? Why was it so important? Perhaps there was something that had to remain a secret and that could only be guaranteed by finding all nine of them (and all their cameras perhaps?). Dead men tell no tales...
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 08, 2019, 01:42:20 PM
They didn't die at the hands of people or animals.
Why?
Because of the investment the state made to find all of the bodies. Thirty men supplied by helicopter for 3 months, multiple probing of 1500 hectares of ground, officers up to the rank of Colonel personally lifting three month old corpses out of the mud. A team of KGB who always wore their pistols. Another team of young men all dressed in identical sheepskin jackets. Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to invent a coverup (or else) and front it to the relatives. They even built a dam at the bottom of the ravine to ensure that the spring thaw didn't wash the bodies away.
It was all about finding the bodies, not solving a crime.

Once they had all the bodies they wrapped the whole thing up and confiscated evidence.

So the solution to the mystery begins by asking, why did they need to find all the bodies? Why was it so important? Perhaps there was something that had to remain a secret and that could only be guaranteed by finding all nine of them (and all their cameras perhaps?). Dead men tell no tales...

Yes I tend to agree with your way of looking at this from the COVER UP point of view. I dont like Cover ups and Iam sure most of us dont, but we know it goes on even today in high places in Governments around the World, for whatever reasons. So as far as the Dyatlov Incident is concerned the question then becomes, why did the Government COVER IT UP ? And will the new investigation toe the same line ? If it was an accident, then accidents happen and no reason really for such a cover up. If it was an Electrical Event of nature then once again no reason for a cover up. So maybe it was was something unworldly  !  ?  PS just to clarify, Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 08, 2019, 01:48:38 PM
Okay but what if it had to be covered up so as not to further cause issues with the Native tribes? A political coverup?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 08, 2019, 02:13:13 PM
Okay but what if it had to be covered up so as not to further cause issues with the Native tribes? A political coverup?

I suppose that would depend on exactly what the EVENT was that caused the demise of the Dyatlov group. It wouldnt have been just the native tribes that had an interest it would have been all Russians or Soviets I suppose.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 08, 2019, 02:16:56 PM
Do you think the Khanty could maybe have attacked the tent?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 09, 2019, 04:28:26 AM
Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 05:19:04 AM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?

They are to me,cause I am not a professional pathologist. I have only researched books written by criminal pathologists, watched information about experiments in body farms, how bodies decompose in different condition. And all I can say is that except for burning, explosions, and gang revenges with mutilations ,a corpse decomposes evenly under clothes and bare parts. So clothes on body don't slow down decomposition. In some cases they make it faster. And bodies in cold water don't miss eyes and tissues after 2 weeks (searchers state that the thaw had been begun for the last 10 days ,which means that all other time they were in frozen snow)
 I may post photos of bodies found in cold streams after longer periods. They are blue  , bloated, with maceration, but WHOLE .
So WABs explanation about mechanical damage from thawing snow and stream is the only one I find logical.
But as you said how come only Dubinina is worse  how come Tibo is much better than Zolotarev while he is underwater too? This makes them mysterious , everything we don't know for sure is a mystery. Which doesn't mean aliens had done it.
Ball lightening is mysterious too,but we don't blame aliens for it . We know it is electrical discharge but as a rare phenomenon it is not fully explained by science yet.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 05:25:50 AM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations



Why dont you believe that there is a connection ?

Because cattle mutilations are with a very precise clear cut. Look at Zolotaryav morgue photo. Nothing but clear cuts,his eye sockets are completely rugged and messy, also his mouth. Same for Dubinina. Also cattle mutilations are reported with hole through the anus. We don't have this in the reports, except if it is a lie that their genitalia is absolutely fine .
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 09, 2019, 07:40:47 AM
I don't think CM has anything to do with aliens. Imo it's electro magnetic excitation of the water and metals in the body including the iron in the blood perhaps in the microwave region. Probably the same energy that forms crop circles where microwaves are suspected (steamed stalks).  Lyudmila's facial damage is asymmetric compared to the others particularly Nicolai who is also facing upstream. He is in such a force of water that it is spurting out of his right sleeve, but no real signs of mechanical damage.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:35:35 PM
Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1

How many interviews  ?  Any other sources to make this real good concrete ?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:38:22 PM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations
But you think her injuries are mysterious?

They are to me,cause I am not a professional pathologist. I have only researched books written by criminal pathologists, watched information about experiments in body farms, how bodies decompose in different condition. And all I can say is that except for burning, explosions, and gang revenges with mutilations ,a corpse decomposes evenly under clothes and bare parts. So clothes on body don't slow down decomposition. In some cases they make it faster. And bodies in cold water don't miss eyes and tissues after 2 weeks (searchers state that the thaw had been begun for the last 10 days ,which means that all other time they were in frozen snow)
 I may post photos of bodies found in cold streams after longer periods. They are blue  , bloated, with maceration, but WHOLE .
So WABs explanation about mechanical damage from thawing snow and stream is the only one I find logical.
But as you said how come only Dubinina is worse  how come Tibo is much better than Zolotarev while he is underwater too? This makes them mysterious , everything we don't know for sure is a mystery. Which doesn't mean aliens had done it.
Ball lightening is mysterious too,but we don't blame aliens for it . We know it is electrical discharge but as a rare phenomenon it is not fully explained by science yet.

Burns on clothes and some parts of bodies along with other damage to body tissues could suggest some kind of ELECTRICAL EVENT.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:40:37 PM
well,,, yeah,,,but honestly I don't believe there is a connection with cattle mutilations



Why dont you believe that there is a connection ?

Because cattle mutilations are with a very precise clear cut. Look at Zolotaryav morgue photo. Nothing but clear cuts,his eye sockets are completely rugged and messy, also his mouth. Same for Dubinina. Also cattle mutilations are reported with hole through the anus. We don't have this in the reports, except if it is a lie that their genitalia is absolutely fine .

Cattle Mutations vary. Not all Cattle Mutations have damage to the ANUS.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
I don't think CM has anything to do with aliens. Imo it's electro magnetic excitation of the water and metals in the body including the iron in the blood perhaps in the microwave region. Probably the same energy that forms crop circles where microwaves are suspected (steamed stalks).  Lyudmila's facial damage is asymmetric compared to the others particularly Nicolai who is also facing upstream. He is in such a force of water that it is spurting out of his right sleeve, but no real signs of mechanical damage.

Its certainly beginning to look like some type of ELECTRICAL EVENT. The question then would be ; What caused the Electrical Event  ?  So we cant really rule anything out.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 09, 2019, 02:20:58 PM
Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1

How many interviews  ?  Any other sources to make this real good concrete ?
2 men, 2 interviews?From the Shavarin Q&A, a lady named Galina? Has stated that "the competent authorities" came and confiscated a lot of material, radiograms, notebooks etc.
Okishev even named the Colonel who collected it all.
How much proof do you need?
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 09, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
Iam not suggesting that I believe it was a cover up , just that it may have been.
One of the few concrete facts of the DPI is that both Ivanov and Okishev said in interviews that they were ordered to invent an accidental death coverup????
I'm a believer!!  read1

How many interviews  ?  Any other sources to make this real good concrete ?
2 men, 2 interviews?From the Shavarin Q&A, a lady named Galina? Has stated that "the competent authorities" came and confiscated a lot of material, radiograms, notebooks etc.
Okishev even named the Colonel who collected it all.
How much proof do you need?

Ok. As much proof as possible. This is the Dyatlov Mystery, one of the great mysteries.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 08:29:36 PM
I found some more details about a possible precedent, the Khanty collective sacrifice. We now have a name full name for the woman who transgressed on the sacred island: Polina Schneider (her name is transliterated differently). And she WAS murdered. There are apparently no Soviet records of her death, but anthropologists interviewed a lot of Khanty who remember the incident since it sparked a revolt--that and forcing Khanty children into Communist schools. Schneider was the head of the Ural Communist Party Regional Committee.

I haven't found any confirmation of the rumors that she was disfigured first. There is a Russian movie about her, called "Angels of Revolution." Here's a review of it, and there are obviously more in Russian. The leader of the group of Communists who were slaughtered was one Pyotr Astakhatsev, the head of an agit-brigade hunting Khanty who refused collectivization and had headed into the taiga. The collective sacrifice took place on Dec. 4, 1933, after the brigade was taken hostage. The numbers differ, but this source says there were 8 Russians (!). I tried to cut and paste the details about the murder of the Russians, but the source wouldn't let me. Here is the link, and the important information is on page 14. The Khanty shaman had the Russians tied to sleds and taken to the top of a hill. Then they were stripped naked and ropes were wrapped around their necks. All the tribesmen pulled the ropes so they would all be responsible. Astakhatsev's wife also claims that they were scalped. Their bodies were then placed on the ice of a lake.


The Dyatlov tragedy clearly differs in many way, but a few things leaped out at me: top of a hill, stripped, tied with ropes, use of sleds, strangled, placed in water or ice, disfigured. Usually the sacrifice reindeer during the solstices, but they carried out this deed under the direction of a shaman since they believed the Russians were going to make war. Plus the shaman told them the gods demanded recompense for the pollution of their sacred island by a woman (The contamination is said to come from menstruation). The trauma to the hyoid bones and the petechiae on Zina's eyelids all suggest possible strangulation. What do people think?

On a side note, Khanty leaders who signed on with the Soviets were given snowmobiles, but in the late 50s they were still probably the WWII ones on skis that were used to fight the Nazis, the Aerosanis.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Pyotr+Astrakhantsev+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8XMR94CR&sig=ACfU3U1Ybb-Wn6HmsYo1Cet9_NHyN7UOuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitoZXJ3LrhAhWKneAKHYfYChoQ6AEwCXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Pyotr%20Astrakhantsev%20Khanty&f=false

I can see a lot of sense in your comparison and all the mansi testimonies from the case files are so vague and absolutely suspicious to me...
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 08:37:56 PM
It looks like electrical event, but then why Nigel would suggest that only finding the bodies was important? And why all the secrecy if it is a natural phenomenon?
If it was an electrical event then it seems like one intelligent and selective event...
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 09, 2019, 11:16:00 PM
Dragged with ropes - we have position of Dyatlov hands on his chest like he has been tied ,and the branch under his arm is stuck like this only if he has been dragged and the bush stuck on his armpit so he was left there.
Stripped - victims in 30s were stripped of their clothes. Only it is not mentioned fully stripped or partially like dyatlovs ,only from their outerwear.
Strangled - very suspicious mobility of the hyoid bone of Dubinina , strangely no mention about the condition of hyoid bones of other hikers. No info in the reports.
Placed in water after death - ravine 4 in the stream
Disfiguration - it is mentioned that killed russians were scalped ,and there are rumours the killed woman was with no eyes and tongues - but these are only rumors so..not conclusive ...
Use of sleds - may explain broken ribs . Broken skull of Tibo may be explained that while he was dragged with the sled (if is a dog sled, it is said that in these years some mansis were given snowmobiles) and his head hit a rock with high speed.

Of course the mystery with DP case is that all 9 participants have different injuries , really random. Like 9 different incidents have happened 😯😱 well, we may say that Zolotaryov and Dubinina have actually the same injuries and post mortem missing eyes.
As I have said many times, the more I look into this case, the more theories are emerging and none of them fit ALL the facts we know for sure. Every theory fits several things and not the others. This is because so much information is missing that we are dealing with probably even less than 50% of the evidences. Adding the doubt that the authorities might have falsified some documents, especially the most important - the autopsy reports- we are left blind until someone finally discloses that missing info. Like missing films from cameras, missing radiogram from 25.february (the date on which pilot Karpushin reported he saw 2 bodies in front of the tent ) , missing testimonies of mansi about fireballs, discrepancies in autopsies ( Zolotaryov has nothing on his head when found in the stream, then when placed on the autopsy tsble suddenly he has 2 hats, Kolevatov clearly has no eyes on the photo from the stream, then in the autopsy his eyeballs are described as present, clothes on Dubinina leg, jacket on Zolotaryov etc etc etc) . I can go on forever, it is an enigma, really!
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 10, 2019, 03:34:12 AM
Every theory fits several things and not the others.
The ball lightning theory explains all the evidence? As does the military involvement theory? (I like a combination of the two).


 Kolevatov clearly has no eyes on the photo from the stream, then in the autopsy his eyeballs are described as presentNot so, the pathologist said - "The skin is missing in the area of the eye sockets and eyebrows, exposing the facial bone; the soft tissue around the edge of the exposed bone is limp, smooth and slightly raised. The eyeballs are wrinkled and sunken into the eye sockets."There's no photographic evidence to challenge that.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 10, 2019, 07:58:09 AM
So....the military is testing some kind of electromagnetic weapon, which kills the hikers and they cover it up?

Or they know about the "balls of light" which killed the hikers and they cover it up so no one asks questions about the balls of light?

Or, the hikers are killed by someone other than the military and it is covered up to spare relations with Native tribes.

I would expect there to be more burns on the skin of all the hikers, not just the 2 Yuris' though, if it was indeed the 2 options above. Unless....the superficial injuries to faces and hands are burns, they just don't look like burns because the skin froze soon after?

As for Kolevatov's eyes - I suppose we can only see one side of his face in the Ravine photo, but it appears that the eyeball IS absent. Perhaps the coroner is speaking about the other eyeball OR got confused with Thibo….according to the pics - that's exactly how I would describe THIBO'S eyes.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Nigel Evans on April 10, 2019, 09:35:01 AM
So....the military is testing some kind of electromagnetic weapon, which kills the hikers and they cover it up?
I like the idea that there was a radar signature from Semyon's Plane 2 which they fired missiles at. That gives you nitric exposure. then they have to observe what's going on which includes tracked vehicles.
Or they know about the "balls of light" which killed the hikers and they cover it up so no one asks questions about the balls of light?Not imo.

Or, the hikers are killed by someone other than the military and it is covered up to spare relations with Native tribes.Not imo.
I would expect there to be more burns on the skin of all the hikers, not just the 2 Yuris' though, if it was indeed the 2 options above. Unless....the superficial injuries to faces and hands are burns, they just don't look like burns because the skin froze soon after?It's a feature of lightning strikes (on people) that the hit can vapourise the outer clothing leaving the victim dead, naked or near so but without burns. Now the clothing doesn't always vapourise but is found elsewhere in burnt pieces which of course is a very good fit for the DPI.

As for Kolevatov's eyes - I suppose we can only see one side of his face in the Ravine photo, but it appears that the eyeball IS absent. Perhaps the coroner is speaking about the other eyeball OR got confused with Thibo….according to the pics - that's exactly how I would describe THIBO'S eyes.Your eyes are mainly filled with gel and fluid, lose that and they could get quite small. Shrunken eyes could mean anything.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 10, 2019, 01:41:19 PM
Every theory fits several things and not the others.
The ball lightning theory explains all the evidence? As does the military involvement theory? (I like a combination of the two).


 Kolevatov clearly has no eyes on the photo from the stream, then in the autopsy his eyeballs are described as presentNot so, the pathologist said - "The skin is missing in the area of the eye sockets and eyebrows, exposing the facial bone; the soft tissue around the edge of the exposed bone is limp, smooth and slightly raised. The eyeballs are wrinkled and sunken into the eye sockets."There's no photographic evidence to challenge that.

Ok so actually Kolevatov in the stream looks like with no eyes  but he looks like this because all other tissues are missing, like eyelids. I think now I got it, because I was expecting to see eyelids in the photo and imagibed the sunken wrinkled eyeballs under the preserved eyelids.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 10, 2019, 01:44:58 PM
So....the military is testing some kind of electromagnetic weapon, which kills the hikers and they cover it up?

Or they know about the "balls of light" which killed the hikers and they cover it up so no one asks questions about the balls of light?

Or, the hikers are killed by someone other than the military and it is covered up to spare relations with Native tribes.

I would expect there to be more burns on the skin of all the hikers, not just the 2 Yuris' though, if it was indeed the 2 options above. Unless....the superficial injuries to faces and hands are burns, they just don't look like burns because the skin froze soon after?

As for Kolevatov's eyes - I suppose we can only see one side of his face in the Ravine photo, but it appears that the eyeball IS absent. Perhaps the coroner is speaking about the other eyeball OR got confused with Thibo….according to the pics - that's exactly how I would describe THIBO'S eyes.


A lot of the injuries could suggest some type of Electrical Event.The Soviets did not have the technology in those days to make an ELECTROMAGNETIC WEAPON, or any other type of Electrical Weapon capable of causing the injuries that were found on some of the Dyatlov bodies.
How could the Authorities know that 'Balls OF Light' killed the hikers  ! ?
If the Authorities had proof that the Dyatlov Group had been murdered by a local Tribe, I think the reaction would have be swift and probably violent, and it would have been published to the public at large.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: Clacon on April 11, 2019, 06:53:49 AM
We simply don't know what type of weapons they were testing back then, or even now. Technology used by the Military or whoever the powers that be are, are completely shrouded in mystery and protected at all costs.

I mean - sure they are conspiracy theories, but just think about "The Bell" supposedly tested by the Nazis; or even more relevantly, Area 51. I don't think we will ever know what goes on there. We don't even know if supposed UFO's are our own technology or alien. That's how secretive they are. Even "cloaking" technology - we only have tidbits or rumours....meanwhile, cloaked aircraft could be flying over our heads as we speak!  As it is now, so it was then. And probably even more so as it was the era of the Cold War.


I'm not fully behind selling this idea of an electromagnetic weapon, but it could be a possibility.


Regarding the Native tribes murder theory, it could be a possibility too. As far as I know, there was no retribution to the Khanty for the murders of non-Natives in the 1930's was there?
I think the government would wish to preserve relations with Native tribes. It is such a remote area. I think they pretty much regard it as their land; their rules.

Kind of like that missionary who was murdered by locals on an island near India I think it was, maybe last year?? The authorities didn't do anything, mostly because he had been warned not to go there, but went anyway and ended up being murdered.

Covering up a possible murder by Natives in the Ural mountains I think, would be paramount to preserving relations with the tribes and preserving peace. If it was exposed, there would be chaos, perhaps serious fighting and mass murder - non-Natives would seek vengeance....it would just be a political nightmare. I would think they'd like to keep it quiet to prevent this violent reaction??
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: sarapuk on April 11, 2019, 01:15:54 PM
We simply don't know what type of weapons they were testing back then, or even now. Technology used by the Military or whoever the powers that be are, are completely shrouded in mystery and protected at all costs.

I mean - sure they are conspiracy theories, but just think about "The Bell" supposedly tested by the Nazis; or even more relevantly, Area 51. I don't think we will ever know what goes on there. We don't even know if supposed UFO's are our own technology or alien. That's how secretive they are. Even "cloaking" technology - we only have tidbits or rumours....meanwhile, cloaked aircraft could be flying over our heads as we speak!  As it is now, so it was then. And probably even more so as it was the era of the Cold War.


I'm not fully behind selling this idea of an electromagnetic weapon, but it could be a possibility.


Regarding the Native tribes murder theory, it could be a possibility too. As far as I know, there was no retribution to the Khanty for the murders of non-Natives in the 1930's was there?
I think the government would wish to preserve relations with Native tribes. It is such a remote area. I think they pretty much regard it as their land; their rules.

Kind of like that missionary who was murdered by locals on an island near India I think it was, maybe last year?? The authorities didn't do anything, mostly because he had been warned not to go there, but went anyway and ended up being murdered.

Covering up a possible murder by Natives in the Ural mountains I think, would be paramount to preserving relations with the tribes and preserving peace. If it was exposed, there would be chaos, perhaps serious fighting and mass murder - non-Natives would seek vengeance....it would just be a political nightmare. I would think they'd like to keep it quiet to prevent this violent reaction??

Have you ever heard it said thats its IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP A SECRET  ! ?  The Rulers of Egypt tried hard to protect their dead and treasures, but failed. Someone inevitably talks eventually. Do you know what I mean ! ? NO ELECTRICAL WEAPONS were used in the Dyatlov Incident, certainly non by humans. By all accounts from many in the West the Soviets were ruthless in dealing with their adversaries or enemies. So why would they treat a tribe of murderous locals any differently ! ? If the Mansi had murdered those 9 Dyatlov people then they would have been dealt with swiftly and probably violently.
Title: Re: Clothes
Post by: beanie07 on February 05, 2021, 11:15:39 AM
Sorry to necromance this thread.. but the clothes study by Vietnamka gave a thought.
The following is the proposed scenario:
1. Something catastrophic (harsh weather, ice slab?) destroys the tent, and injures the occupants inside
2. Some of them cut the tent to come out, but the wind is strong and weather is awful
3. Rustem, who suffered a fractured skull, perhaps becomes delirious, wanders into the dark (that explains his light clothing)
4. Igor and Zina realises this in a while and gave chase (that explains their light clothing too) - acute phase of stress
5. The 2 Yuris followed up too, but were only slightly better clothed. Rav4 stays to salvage the tent.
6. The 3 (igor, zina, rustem) got lost in the dark and bad weather and succumbed to the cold
7. The 2 yuris couldnt find the 3, but made it to the cedar, decided to start a fire to catch anyone's attention.
8. Perhaps the weather got worse n this is when Rav4 decides to abandon tent n also to go search their friends (they saw the fire). This also explains why they are better dressed as they stayed at the tent longer. They could even be removing some of the snow slab on their tents at this point (thus the little snow found later by the rescuers?)
9. When Rav4 reaches the cedar, the 2 Yuris had succumbed to the cold as well.
10. Rav 4 scavenges Yuris clothes, n decide to move deeper into the woods to find better shelter.
11.  They manage to build a den (for 4).. and were somewhat beginning to relax a bit (this explains some of the unused warm clothing in their pockets or on the floor)
12. Something catastrophic happens to Rav4 and killed them all (this explains the severe injuries found specifically on the 4 of them as they are also found in close proximity)