Dyatlov Pass Forum

Victims and Case Files => Case Files => Topic started by: Dona on April 13, 2021, 09:01:08 AM

Title: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 13, 2021, 09:01:08 AM
 I note her leg bruise is very similar in size and shape to Nicks arm bruise


(https://i.ibb.co/LhFq7tB/Ludaimpct.png) (https://ibb.co/3Y38ZNV)
Title: Re: The Injuries
Post by: Dona on April 13, 2021, 09:02:55 AM
Seems a rather relaxed position.. They were all lying down when injured.. and they would not have been lying down  in the snow prior to injuries.. They had to have still been in the tent.


(https://i.ibb.co/n8WrX61/nickbruise.png) (https://ibb.co/93Mnxc4)
Title: Re: The Injuries
Post by: Dona on April 13, 2021, 09:12:35 AM
The question is, why are they all lying down.. and where were they, lying down..
Title: Re: The Injuries
Post by: Dona on April 13, 2021, 11:09:50 AM
Simon lying down too.. Where, where, where were they lying down? Could something have hit them sideways and knocked them down?


(https://i.ibb.co/Pt9kJCB/Zinjury.png) (https://ibb.co/9GVPBYR)
Title: Re: The Injuries
Post by: Dona on April 13, 2021, 11:15:21 AM
Nooo. Cant be sideways.. Too many temple wounds and no defensive wounds..

Sooo. They were lying down and didnt see it  coming..

 Sakes.. that implies they were sleeping..?

Or, their vision was blocked..  By the tent?
Title: Re: The Injuries
Post by: Dona on April 14, 2021, 01:11:27 PM
Rustem

I have him lying down too. Face down..  He has dual , bilateral temporal  wounds..  AND, he has a  bleeding in the  kidney/adrenal area. Something hit him on the back.. So, face down..

I havent eliminated an attack yet so, all these injuries could be from  an attack.. but, for now,  Im going with them lying down..They are NOT from a  fall however.

I am troubled by the fact that Simons and Rustems  temporal wounds seem very similar in size and location.


(https://i.ibb.co/0V4VVQY/Rustem-Slobodin-autopsy-report.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: The Injuries
Post by: Dona on April 14, 2021, 01:20:38 PM
Ohhh, there are  2 "Injuries" boards.. No wonder I am confused..
Title: The missing eyes
Post by: Dona on April 14, 2021, 01:52:32 PM
The eyes were dislodged while they were ALIVE.. SO, no, they didnt get eaten by rats etc. or washed out by the stream.. For Luda, this would have been within, maybe 20 minutes.  I assume no one in the group plucked them out..

 They most likely popped out on their own with the crushing bodily injuries that Luda and Simon sustained.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 16, 2021, 01:31:25 PM
Georgy

 Another temple wound.. and buttocks bruise  So, Face down, most likely.. If butt bruise is connected.. hard to say..

(https://i.ibb.co/W3LV7nq/Dyatlov-pass-Krivonishenko.png) (https://ibb.co/DbZrm4s)
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 16, 2021, 01:35:48 PM
Zena.. She has the 5th temple area wound.. And a bruise to her waist area.. So, without better description of that bruise.. I would say face down or side lying


(https://i.ibb.co/PTk9KVH/Dyatlov-pass-Kolmogorova.png) (https://ibb.co/Rh8BfJw)
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 16, 2021, 01:44:52 PM
Igor ..

No major injuries noted.. I think he was the one up and making the cocoa.. and was missed by whatever hit the others..


(https://i.ibb.co/mq0yhJ9/Dyatlov-pass-Dyatlov.png) (https://ibb.co/DCYMw49)
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 17, 2021, 01:31:58 PM
Hikers with injuries to the SIDES of their heads:

Alex
Nick
Georgy
Rustem
Zena

Hikers with wounds to back of their  head : 0

Hikers with wounds to the front of their heads: 0

This is not a coincidence.

I think this evidence rules out ALL other theories except attackers or some event like a tree falling on them or  something running them over etc..

Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: sarapuk on April 17, 2021, 05:20:31 PM
Hikers with injuries to the SIDES of their heads:

Alex
Nick
Georgy
Rustem
Zena

Hikers with wounds to back of their  head : 0

Hikers with wounds to the front of their heads: 0

This is not a coincidence.

I think this evidence rules out ALL other theories except attackers or some event like a tree falling on them or  something running them over etc..

You really are confusing matters.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 17, 2021, 05:25:33 PM
In what way..
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: sarapuk on April 18, 2021, 02:30:35 PM
In what way..

Well for instance in another Post you have said that there were no Lower Body Injuries. I pointed out the fact that there were some Injuries to Legs but you then suggested that they were not significant. Now you Post these drawings clearly showing such Injuries  !  ? 
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 18, 2021, 02:50:41 PM
Life threatening injuries.. Christ!
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: sarapuk on April 19, 2021, 12:17:00 PM
Life threatening injuries.. Christ!

What are you talking about  ! ? Is that the best you can do to answer my reply which puts you on the spot  ! ?
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 19, 2021, 12:22:42 PM
In what way.. Are you intentionally being daft? Sure looks it..
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 21, 2021, 07:22:25 PM
Simons autopsy says he has lividity on his back AND his right side.. So, he died on his back and was  there for quite a while, in that postilion then moved, probably to the ravine, to his side, as he was found..

Isn't that odd.. He had to be on his back for an hour or more.. maybe much more, possibly several  hours, before being moved.. Yeah, thats weird..

Ya know, they are damned near dead themselves, and they are moving dead bodies around???

He had to be on his back for hours to have that much lividity there. so they didnt  move him for hours..Interesting..
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 21, 2021, 07:45:31 PM
Did the Mansi find and move them...??

That would explain that Mansi strap that was found that they use to move dead animal carcasses..

That would also explain why they are all lined up like that..easier to find..

That makes a whole lot more sense to me than the hikers doing it, hours later. If you had 20 minutes to live.. would you be doing that? No.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Paf on April 21, 2021, 11:51:53 PM
For the clothes, be carefull with Krivo. He was probably not so undressed at the beginning : the other wore his cloth as well. (and the inverse for Thibeaux-Brignolle, who ended up well covered but only thanks to other's people clothes.
(It's important, because of the order of death -unless they just grab whatever they could in the tent before to go, but unlikely.)

For the injuries, I think small bruise could also come from freezing (part of the body in contact with the snow would get frostbitten quicker ; and once it's frostbitten, after one month or more, it's the same as a bruise without bleeding underneath. Parchment-like. )

Tibo's injuries, lined as you line it, actually coincide more with the "avalanche theory" as presented by the officials than with anything else, no ? If he was on his belly, and snow fall on the tent, then his arm would have been crushed against one ski as well as his head.


That would explain that Mansi strap that was found that they use to move dead animal carcasses..


Some don't think it was a mansi strap.
Quote
I was present when we found under same cedar a cloth belt of dark color with tassels at the ends. I don't know who this item belongs to. The length of this item is about 80 cm, the width is about 10 cm, looks like a belt or strap, with which the Mansi pull loads, except the object would be not strong enough for this purpose.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-298-300?rbid=17743)

For the Livor Mortis (the spot that show they were moved) i've read somewhere it could be due to the position the were thaw out for autopsy. (that would explain why Zolotaryov had some on his side -real ones- and on his back -from autopsy. Maybe.)

And for all the hand injuries (looking like a fight), i've found a photo (http://www.atlasdedermatologieprofessionnelle.com/images/8/8a/PC130007.jpg) that shows that frostbite can do similar injuries (from site in french, (http://www.atlasdedermatologieprofessionnelle.com/index.php/Froid) sorry ! )
(^^ no, i'm not a "fight" theory believer, but looks like you do -as much as we all find some theory more or less convincing-. So, here why I don't find it convincing, since those finger injuries are one of the most common fact in its favor. :)
Plus, in case of agression, why didn't the culprit use any knife, or other weapon ? They had knife, ice axe. It's far easier to kill with than without, and they would have at least unset the tent. (espacially if they took the time to throw the bodies in the ravin : the "no time/no energy" don't work as body probably would never have been retrieved if they didn't found the tent first. )
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 22, 2021, 06:24:29 AM
* I didnt mention Georgys clothing

* Bodies  dont get frostbite after death

* There was no avalanche. The Mansi would have recognized it.

*Doesnt matter what the strap was used for.. It was left at  crime scene.

*The coroners in this case live and work in Siberia.. They have  no doubt autopsied  100's of frozen bodies.. They would know  what lividity is  and how to read it.

* I dont believe they were in a fight at this point. .. No defense wounds.




Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 22, 2021, 09:55:52 AM
Soooo, the hikers didnt cut the tent or move the bodies..

Someone else was there.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 22, 2021, 06:25:42 PM
Wait a  minute here..

 If Luda only lived a very short time.. How did Georgy die before her when she was so severely injured..
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Paf on April 23, 2021, 04:55:20 PM
* I didnt mention Georgys clothing
(it's on the picture, that's why I pointed it out).
* Bodies  dont get frostbite after death
(nop, but when they're hurt, they can lie in the snow alive. -and they can be left for dead and stripped while being only at the last stage of hypothermia-)
* There was no avalanche. The Mansi would have recognized it.
(A month after, for some type of avalanches, nobody wouldn't see anything... slab avalanche can leave little trace, easily covered with a new layer of snow.)
*Doesnt matter what the strap was used for.. It was left at  crime scene.

*The coroners in this case live and work in Siberia.. They have  no doubt autopsied  100's of frozen bodies.. They would know  what lividity is  and how to read it.
The coroner's work is to describe first, and then to interpret. When he describe a "lividity", it's just because he sees it, not because it's relevant. In his interpretation, he doesn't keep it : maybe because it is irrelevant.



The eyes were dislodged while they were ALIVE.. SO, no, they didnt get eaten by rats etc. or washed out by the stream.. For Luda, this would have been within, maybe 20 minutes.  I assume no one in the group plucked them out..

 They most likely popped out on their own with the crushing bodily injuries that Luda and Simon sustained.
I found no signs the eyes were dislodged while alive... Where did you found it ?

And I don't think eye popping can occurs directly from a fall, a shock , an explosion or even a crush -as long as it doesn't break the skulls. It occurs when internal, facial injuries (FROM shock, explosion, ect) are swelling enough around the eyes to push it outside. There are no trace of such injuries on Zolotaryov or Dubinina.
I have no explanation my-self.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 23, 2021, 05:14:42 PM
There was NO snow event..There is o evidence of one..  There should have been some even after  weeks.. The tent poles are still standing.. as well as the tent is upright.. the snow on the tent is crumbly from a snow fall and  collapse..  It just didnt happen


I am in the medical profession; I know how medical reports are written.. I write them myself. :)
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 23, 2021, 05:19:12 PM
I dont recall where I heard that..  But I did..

Eyes DO pop out with  heavy pressure on a body.. I saw a TV show about someone confessing to strangling someone and she said their eye popped out while she was strangling him. It happens..  And the 2 with eyes missing are the 2 with crushing injuries.. Im sure the hikers didnt pluck them out..
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 23, 2021, 07:40:05 PM
But, aside from all that.. They would not have, what is essentially, comit suicide,  over that. They wold have gone back, at least for blankets etc
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Paf on April 23, 2021, 11:17:35 PM
(sorry for teaching you your job !  grin1 I'm just trying to push questions up. :) I'll take your medical judgement !
For the eyes... When strangling, yes ! Here I totally understand. The blood pressure is rising in the head, so yes ! ... but a chest pressure ? Would it rise the blood pressure to this point ?  )

But about going back to the tent... maybe not. :)
I'm living in Yukon for 4 years now, with at least one short week of -40 each year (-20 being the nice time you WANT to get out for long walk).
I haven't made any ski trek here ; but I was used to it back in France.

From my experience, and if I had been down that slope this very night without any other element we don't know (just the cold, the torn tent, probably strong winds), I would have stay in the wood - make a fire first, then dig a den, move the fire closer to the den, and not move before noon.
I think that's really the fist thing my parents teach me when skiing : If you're lost, make a den and lay something red something around. (the second point not being very relevant in Dyatlov's case ! ^^) In the Yukon, I learned that fire comes first...
(Have you ever read Jack London's "To built a fire (http://www.giuliotortello.it/articoli/fire.pdf)" ? It could actually quite be Dyatlov's story... with lots of missing explanations though.)

Playing penguin : keeping close to each other, and singing (we know they loved that) to keep awake.
Then, go with the best clothes (what Zina, Dyatlov and Slobodin didn't have) to the tent for food and blankets. Come back to the den, make it another day, night. It's better to stay half frozen for 3 weeks than freezing fully.

That's the part I can't understand if there's no snow event : Why the hell would have some of them gone back on the slop without being ready (and with good condition, like less wind if the wind was really a problem) for it ? I can understand the Yuri's death, if the fire was not burning quick enough.  I can really not understand a personne who try to get to the tent, feel the wind and the cold, and still go ahead. That is suicide : so much more than staying in the wood, even after staying in the den/at the tree for days.
(Well. If there's nothing else than naturals elements, of course ! )
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 24, 2021, 08:40:40 AM
I wold think the pressure on the chest would exert pressure on the heart..like squeezing a tube of tooth paste.

Not going back to the tent,  was suicide. They knew that..Odd tho that they didnt retrace their own footsteps back .. and they appear to be crawling.. Maybe in exhaustion.. may be because they didnt want to be seen.. :) And maybe they weren't running to something but, from something.

I agree.. I think this was survivable for them.. Why ddnt they make a bigger fire with wood sitting right next to them?? And cutting/breaking those limbs took an incredible amount of time and energy..

Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 24, 2021, 08:54:11 AM
As far as a snow event..  A) they would have known 10 minutes in to the walk to the woods that there was no snow event and gone back, or, B) they would have known that it was over and gone back
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Paf on April 24, 2021, 09:27:11 AM
I wold think the pressure on the chest would exert pressure on the heart..like squeezing a tube of tooth paste.
But wouldn't the pressure have been distributed in the whole body, then ? The arms and legs acting swelling at the same time as the head tissues, acting as reservoirs ?
Maybe the cold change the logic : with shrunk blood vessels, less blood can got there. More goes to the head. But still : i'm not convinced at all.  Would they have seen abundant nose bleeding, ear bleeding, after all this time in the water ? I can't imagine the eyes giving up before the nose vessels...

As far as a snow event..  A) they would have known 10 minutes in to the walk to the woods that there was no snow event and gone back, or, B) they would have known that it was over and gone back
A) If I was fearing an avalanche to the point to move in the middle of the night, nop, 10 minutes would not change my mind. Especially in those conditions, where it's not only about the snow on the slop it-self, but about the drift/overhang (it's not step enough to have an overhang I think, but a drift can do the same job) : as long a there's wind, loading the drift at the summit, the danger is increasing, not decreasing.
B) On avalanche doesn't mean there won't be any other. On the contrary, if one slab is sliding, the other around can be weakened...
If the tent had been quite under the avalanche, it would have safe to go back (but then good luck to find it). If only one slab on the slide had been moving... well, I'm not voluunter ! ^^
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 24, 2021, 10:25:34 AM
It prolly would have but, they dont have eyes on their toes :) It will have the most effect on the weakest point.

I would risk it (going  back).. Death for sure if you dont. Early on, anyway.. Take a blanket and lay it out.. put supplies on it and drag it.. 5 minutes.. Its worth the risk..

Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 24, 2021, 10:34:05 AM
And,  go back to the fact that there is no evidence of a snow event,, The tent is still standing..
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 25, 2021, 11:26:36 AM
So, how did Georgy die  before Luda who was gravely injured ? I mean she had a collapsed lung with nearly a half gallon of blood in her lung space, and a whole hell of a lot more..

I dont know... maybe they were injured at different times?? Their wounds are completely different..

Hmm, that points to human intervention.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 25, 2021, 11:48:32 AM
From the autopsy"

"Left leg – part of the leg and foot are covered with burned grey wool cloth from a jacket with its sleeve"

Are we sure this was from Georgy?
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Paf on April 27, 2021, 01:40:14 AM
It prolly would have but, they dont have eyes on their toes :) It will have the most effect on the weakest point.

I would risk it (going  back).. Death for sure if you dont. Early on, anyway.. Take a blanket and lay it out.. put supplies on it and drag it.. 5 minutes.. Its worth the risk..

It's not 5 minutes... 1,5km is more 15 minutes at least, 20-25 when you're slow (because you're cold).
The searh crew talk about wind of 70km/h. Let's take just 50km/h.
According to the diaries, it was around -20, -25°C the previous days. That make it already up to -40°C with windchill. Hight risk of hypothermia and frosbite within 5-10 minutes, says Wikipedia.
In the wood, if they manage to find a place with no wind -the ravine, or just build a little shelter, the risk is said "low", up to -25°C.

And you feel it as soon as you get wind. Not 2 minutes later : after 10 seconds, you know if it's too cold or not. They would not have been back on the slope.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 27, 2021, 07:51:30 AM
I meant early on, when it was feasible.. I mean Luda was  outside with nothing from the waist down,  but her panties, stockings and a garter belt..  Igors coat was outside the tent..

 I cant think of anything that would cause them to leave like that, short of a gun to their heads.
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Paf on April 27, 2021, 05:36:24 PM
Yep, but if they left the tente that way because of something lasing long enough to drive them 1,5km away (15 minutes), would they go back right away ?
Any theory who can explain them going down that far, with so few clothes, pretty much implies no quick return...

I mostly totally can't understand how, going down in deep snow without shoes in cold weather, they end up in hypothermia but with only one or two showing frostbitten toes. Either they should not have die because the cold was not so bad, either MY feet would have been black frozen before I was at the cedar !
(for hands, they have pockets. ... It's pretty hard to walk with your feet in your pockets ! )
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: Dona on April 27, 2021, 06:57:14 PM
I agree. something kept them away.. It had to be bad.. Returning to the tent would depend on what that was..


Yes, I wondered that too.. Why so little frostbite..  Maybe the walking itself kept the circulation moving and warded if off..Maybe..

And I am with you.. anything less than 75 degrees and  i have my fuzzy slippers on :) Southern girl here
Title: Re: The Bodies Stories
Post by: sarapuk on May 19, 2021, 04:28:24 AM
In what way.. Are you intentionally being daft? Sure looks it..

Stop posting rubbish.