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Author Topic: Are the basic facts of the 1993 Korovina group incident well established?  (Read 3276 times)

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April 02, 2021, 08:14:33 PM
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Let's start with my understanding.  They began on August 2 and all but one died on August 5, and the autopsies led to the conclusion the dead were killed by hypothermia and something about malnutrition?  I want to clear up the point about some form of malnutrition, because it's supposed to take about two weeks for this to occur, and I'm assuming they ate well up until August 2.  What was the basis of the malnutrition claim (what was found during the autopsies)?  Could there be some sort of translation issue (I don't speak nor read Russian)?  Thanks.
 

April 02, 2021, 10:40:18 PM
Reply #1
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Manti


This site mentions "protein deficiency".

When I read about that incident I assumed "malnutrition" is mistranslation of "food poisoning", but it's harder to imagine that protein deficiency is mistranslation...


Symptoms are really strange
  • sudden foaming from the mouth - could be due to some form of irritant they breathed in
  • clutching their throats - same
  • sudden bleeding from the ears - unusual unless there's skull injury, but that wasn't the case
  • tearing off their own clothes - again some irritant in the air?
The fact there is a survivor apparently in good health all but rules that out though....

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

April 02, 2021, 11:10:19 PM
Reply #2
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Manti


Some interesting theories here:
Eating poisonous mushrooms, drinking contaminated water, and... nerve agents...

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

April 03, 2021, 12:11:00 AM
Reply #3
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Teddy

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I published information about this incident here: https://dyatlovpass.com/hamar-daban



There are man made Russian and ENGLISH subtitles to this video (switch from Settings)


« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 09:58:11 AM by Teddy »
 

April 03, 2021, 09:41:52 AM
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Thanks, Teddy, but would you mind summing things up for us: do you think lack of food (or protein-rich food) is a possible issue here, because that doesn't seem consistent with eating little for only a few days?  I would guess that food poisoning, possibly of different toxic plants, could have been a factor, though we can't be sure (and like Manti I was wondering about a mistranslation of some kind).
 

April 03, 2021, 10:11:38 AM
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Teddy

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and like Manti I was wondering about a mistranslation of some kind.

I translated it myself, I don't see ambiguous language, only not enough information.
My way of interacting with a mystery case is gather information. This is my strength. I don't try to interpret until I have a conviction i.e. till I am convinced. I am well aware by now I shouldn't try to convince anybody in anything. I usually apply my own experience too. I can only say that the Korovina group tragedy doesn't seem like a malnutrition to me. Malnutrition doesn't explain why were they barefoot for example, and dressed in leotards only. Why were they going mad. I don't have an explanation for this incident.
In this case we do have a survivor, a real one, not like Yudin, who turned back, and was clueless till his death. Here we have a witness. This makes all look very strange.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 10:51:19 AM by Teddy »
 

April 03, 2021, 11:52:53 AM
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I agree, Teddy, and I'd guess that being outrageously hungry (and possibly weak due to that) may have been a major factor (in terms of odd behavior and bad decision-making).  I also like to put myself in the position of the people involved.  Here we have teenagers who were wet, super hungry, and possibly ill due to eating the wrong plants (though not to the point of that showing up in toxicology testing).  The leader of the group was the one "expert"' and the one member of the group who did a lot of the "heavy lifting" were dead or telling them to leave. They may not have felt that going down to the tree line would do much for them, since they didn't believe they had the skills to survive and were very tired, hungry, and perhaps "not in their right minds" for whatever reason (some have mentioned altitude "sickness" too).  They may have thought that staying in that open area would help rescuers find them, and didn't think that as a group they would have the requisite surivival skills without the leader and "heavy lifter."  So, I actually don't find what happened to be all that strange, other than claims about the medical issues, though it's possible the surivivor could have embellished (such as to say that several had a symptom whereas only one did), in order to make her decision seem more reasonable (or she may have hallucinated, though I think this is the least likely explanation).  As their physical conditions deteriorated (internally and externally), that is when bizarre behavior and medical conditions would be more likely, and the leader apparently was known as "tough" and preferred a Spartan approach, but to see such deterioration after just a few days seems very stange.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 06:53:00 PM by Investigator »
 

April 03, 2021, 12:00:03 PM
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Manti


That video is actual footage of the search, right? And not a recreation?

The bodies seem to be wearing more than just leotards.

Anyway I apologise, I assume translation errors more often than I should perhaps as English is not my first language, but there is very little info available in my first language so anything I read about these cases goes through multiple translations, the last one happens as I read the English text so I got accustomed to not take everything as accurate word-by-word.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 12:05:37 PM by Manti »

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

April 03, 2021, 01:05:53 PM
Reply #8
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Teddy

Administrator
That video is actual footage of the search, right? And not a recreation?

The bodies seem to be wearing more than just leotards.

Anyway I apologise, I assume translation errors more often than I should perhaps as English is not my first language, but there is very little info available in my first language so anything I read about these cases goes through multiple translations, the last one happens as I read the English text so I got accustomed to not take everything as accurate word-by-word.

No need to apologize.
The footage is real.
The article says "The scene was terrible, rescuers recall. Almost all of the victims were dressed in thin leotards, and three were barefoot."
I am not interpreting, merely citing.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Hamar-Daban-article-page-2.jpg
 

April 04, 2021, 11:34:43 AM
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Thinking about possible scenarios that make sense, it could be that the lone survivor went down to the tree line and stayed there an hour or two, yelling up for the others to come back down.  Eventually, she went back up to try and get them to follow her back down, but they were all dead by that point, so the key here is that the others were at much higher altitude, being battered by strong winds, rain, and the unseasonably cold temperature, for a time long enough to kill them.  The protein malnutrition claim may  have come from a muscle biopsy, and that would not likely be relevant anyway (because they were only hiking a few days), though lack of proper daily calories could have played a factor in terms of how quickly they died under those harsh conditions.  The first to die, the oldest male, could have slipped, hit his head, and suffered a nasty concusion:

"The [leader] woke us, ordered to collect things and descend into the gorge. She tried to save us. Just did not have time. The wind was so strong that we slipped down, and not walked. Suddenly Sasha fell. He had a foam from his mouth."

https://zizuhotel.ru/en/anapa/pereval-dyatlova-gruppa-lyudmily-korovinoi-zagadochnaya-gibel/

Concussions can cause foaming from the mouth, though the information is poorly translated so perhaps this is not as useful as it appears.  The survivor may have said she saw more bleeding from the nose or ears and foaming from the mouth than there actually was, either due to her psychological state or because she wanted people to think the scene was more horrifying than it actually was (and so she was right to leave at that point, even if one or two may have still had a pulse).  She described it as a scene from a horror movie, which indeed it may have come across to most people, and so it is understandable that she wanted to get away from there, but in retrospect she may have thought a lot of people would say she abandoned those who were still alive, if that is how things developed, and so modified the "real story."
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 07:19:56 PM by Investigator »
 

October 11, 2022, 06:04:41 PM
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I recently saw a video on Youtube about this incident, and the claim is that those who died exhibited symptoms of substances designed by the Russian (or Soviet) government to assassinate people, which may have been discarded in these kinds of locations.  Any thoughts about this idea?
 

October 13, 2022, 06:07:27 PM
Reply #11
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Manti


Depends a lot on the details.

I don't suppose it was recently discarded. So it must have been a fairly stable substance. In which case, the people who searched the scene, touched their belongings, etc. should have been affected as well. But there is no suggestion any of them were.


What makes this incident so interesting is that even though there is a survivor, it seemingly didn't help in finding out what happened at all. And from a high level point of view, it's very similar to the Dyatlov Incident. They ran away from their tent and died. Cause of death not crystal clear. No obvious threat at the tent.I wonder if the Dyatlov Pass Incident would also still be a mystery even if we happened to have a real survivor.


Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

October 13, 2022, 07:28:45 PM
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It seems like this hypothesis (say for Novichok, which you can read about at Wikipedia) would go something like:

The oldest (and by far strongest) male member picks up an object and while manipulating it, activates the poison (or perhaps it was activated when they were packing up that morning).  He dies quickly and then the others die in the order they were exposed and how much they were exposed to, so the survivor may not have been exposed, or it might have been too small an amount to cause symptoms (she waited quite a distance away from what would have been the "epicenter" and stayed away, whereas some of the others went back up quickly).  When she got back up there, she saw a sight from a horror movie and didn't stay for long.  Novichok is apparently dissolved/deactivated by water, so by the time rescuers found them, there many not have been enough of it to injure anyone else.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 11:57:35 AM by Investigator »
 

October 15, 2022, 05:53:59 PM
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Are you thinking of the DPI?  I don't remember any claims about radioactive clothing in this case, unlike the DPI.  But at this point, I think the important question is, does the description of what happened by the one survivor match the poisoning hypothesis better than any other hypothesis?  That seems to be the best we can hope for now.  Making allegations against specific governments, agencies, businesses, or individuals would be premature, unless there is more evidence than I have seen to date, though of course if experts stepped forward and said it was Novichok, then it would be likely related to a Soviet program, due to the geographical location of the incident and the lack of a reason why anyone would want to intentionally harm these hikers.
 

October 19, 2022, 11:24:08 PM
Reply #14
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Manti


To me the symptoms don't seem like novichok but more like a corrosive gas they breathed in.

Bruised lungs, clutching their throats, bleeding from the eyes. Must have been something really strong.


Especially that Korovina herself only started exhibiting the symptoms when she went back to check on Sasha who already had the symptoms.

But all in all the description we got from the survivor / witness borders on unbelievable, and I don't know if it has been corroborated by the autopsies. It's a pretty wild thing to make up though, perhaps the substance was also hallucinogenic and she just managed to get a small enough dose to survive?


Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 
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October 20, 2022, 03:56:46 PM
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I know hardly anything about poisons, but if it were a corrosive substance and all but one died very quickly (and the one survivor had no symptoms), I would guess this possibility is not likely (especially considering the autopsy reports).
 

October 20, 2022, 05:28:46 PM
Reply #16
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Manti


Supposedly when she was found by kayakers her face was also covered in blood. But I don't know... her account is that they had breakfast, packed up, and were descending when Sasha became ill? But the searchers found the bodies next to tents that were still standing... Doesn't add up unless one of these is but a rumor

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

October 21, 2022, 05:12:38 PM
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Yes, i got the feeling that she might have confused things, but I also think that the is the evidence at the site, especially the bodies, where they were located, what condition they were in, the autopsy results, etc.  For so many people to die so quickly under conditions that do not seem like it is possible suggests something like poison.  The other possibility is hypothermia, of course, but my research into hypothermia suggests it was poison or hypothermia.  What the survivor described sounds like a poisoning, especially with the strongest member of the group dying so quickly under conditions one would usually not associate with a hypothermia death.  Also, I found another video that suggests Novichok may have been the cause:

« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 06:24:57 PM by Investigator »
 
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