Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: garybonds on October 17, 2019, 05:53:31 AM

Title: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: garybonds on October 17, 2019, 05:53:31 AM
One thing the searchers noted about the cedar tree and which has led to a fair amount of speculation is the "window" in the branches at 4-5 meters height. Below is a photograph showing the "window".

(https://i.ibb.co/9vDs3F6/Dyatlov-pass-cedar-tree-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPFnhLm)

I suddenly had an idea, let's see what you think.

I imagine they started out breaking the branches close to the ground for their fire. But soon it must have dawned on them that if they kept doing it that way, from the bottom up, then sooner or later the next branch would be out of reach and it would be impossible to get more firewood from the cedar!

But if they climbed up a bit and got branches from there and then worked downwards, then they could get more from the tree.

That's my explanation, basically.

Then at some point they must have gotten too weak, or someone had a fall from the tree or something, and they reverted back to just breaking them off from the bottom again.

(Caveat: since there's very little physical evidence about who climbed there and why, this is of course speculation. We cant even know for sure that the Dyatlovs created the "window")
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: jarrfan on October 17, 2019, 10:40:56 AM
It was definitely the two Yuri's that climbed, they found their skin on the bark of the tree. Speculation was they climbed the tree to see the area of the tent and see if it was "clear." The fire burned for approximately 2 hours so they must have used more brush or dead wood from the area. There was a remark that there was suitable firewood around the area and the searchers wondered why it was not used instead of the cedar tree branches.

As I said, the tent only had the 3 cuts made in it horizontal and semi circular. The big cuts came from the  ice ax as the searchers hacked into it. So the hikers had to have left through the door. If they left through the door, what was the rush that they could not have put on proper clothing? This is the part that is unanswered for me.

As far as the ravine 4, it is possible they fell onto rocks at the ravine, but why were they all separated in the first place? The ravine 4 had such serious injuries they could not have navigated the way to the tree and den in the condition they were in, so they either fell or were pushed into the ravine.

The 3, Dyatalov, Rina and the other guy, must have been at the cedar tree because the den was only made for 4 persons, not 9.

I  believe they were separated or forced to be separated and interrogated which is standard procedure in most police investigations to separate and question, and get to the truth. This is speculation on my part.

So the ravine 4 were left alone at the area where they made the den.

If there were lots of rocks visible, this would speak to the reason why there were no snow footprints of any other persons or animals.

I also mentioned in another section the "false" crown Semyon had when his body was exhumed. That is a very strange thing to have a vacant crown. In the 50's and 60's spies were usually given a breakable capsule of cyanide or strictnine in case they were in a situation where they needed to kill themselves. It is possible that vacant crown was there for that reason. There is historical evidence that several Nazi officials used a cyanide capsule after being arrested for war crimes and used them after they were captured. It was a way to hide the capsule. Just another unanswered question.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: tekumze on October 17, 2019, 11:09:14 AM

Dear garybonds,
Can you mark "window" in the picture? I don't  dunno1 see anything that looks like a window. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Star man on October 17, 2019, 02:25:07 PM
The witness testimonies of some of the search and rescue team speculate that the branches were cleared so that they could look back towards the tent.  They say that many of the small branches that were cut were not used for firewood and many were hanging on the lower branches of the cedar.

There is clear evidence that Yuri D climbed the cedar.  But one of the things that puzzles me is that the autopsy reports states that Yuris D had severe frost bite on fingers and toes that was so severe that he would have had to have them amputated.  So at what point did he get the severe frost bite?  You would not think that he would have got this after the fire had been lit?  If he had got the frost bite before he got to the cedar then would he have been in a fit state to climb the tree?  Probably not.  So did he get the fost bite after climbing the tree to collect fire wood and before the fire was lit?  If this were the case how much time did it take to collect the wood and start the fire?  Is it possible that Yuris D and the others climbed the tree to evade something and they clung onto the tree for some time before they decided it was safe enough to climb down and start a fire?  This would explain why Yuris D had such severe frost bite.  Maybe it just took a very long time to get the fire going?  There were many matches lying around the fire.  About 27ish comes to mind, but I'm not sure now.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: jarrfan on October 17, 2019, 09:39:54 PM
The search team found plenty of other brush, dry limbs in the immediate area. The search team questioned why the hikers would have cut branches  from a green cedar tree,  which apparently would be a terrible way to start a fire, and did not use more of the brush/dry limbs in the area. So the theme that they were climbing the tree to get more tree limbs for the fire doesn't really fit into their situation. The Dyatlov Pass hikers mystery may never be determined, much like the Oak Island mystery, although personally I hope they both have answers.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Star man on October 18, 2019, 04:21:36 AM
They may have used some of the branches for fire wood, but overall the evidence seems to point to them climbing the tree to find safety IMO.

So if this is the case then what would climbing a tree provide safety from?  Humans or animals , possibly fear of avalanche?

Regards
Star man

Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Marchesk on November 02, 2019, 09:07:53 AM
So if this is the case then what would climbing a tree provide safety from?  Humans or animals , possibly fear of avalanche?

There's no avalanche to be afraid of on that slope. At most a snow slab or slide could have hit the tent, but not anything that would worry them in the woods. Keep in mind that they also proceeded downhill in and orderly fashion, which would have taken some time under those conditions, so they couldn't have been all that concerned about an avalanche after leaving the tent. And I'm pretty sure Igor knew well enough what kind of slope they were on and that they weren't in any danger of an avalanche.

But it's possible he/they might not have considered a smaller slide event, although I doubt that's what happened.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Star man on November 02, 2019, 04:46:36 PM
Yeah - an avalanche or snow slide is far from the top of my list of possible explanations.  But there is a chance that they may have feared a potential avalanche  - again though I agree that this is unlikely.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: sarapuk on November 06, 2019, 12:15:00 PM
The search team found plenty of other brush, dry limbs in the immediate area. The search team questioned why the hikers would have cut branches  from a green cedar tree,  which apparently would be a terrible way to start a fire, and did not use more of the brush/dry limbs in the area. So the theme that they were climbing the tree to get more tree limbs for the fire doesn't really fit into their situation. The Dyatlov Pass hikers mystery may never be determined, much like the Oak Island mystery, although personally I hope they both have answers.

Yes there were plenty of other Trees that could have provided fire wood and easier to get at so why choose that particular tree  !  ?  I havnt changed My stance on this one and I believe they choose the tree to escape from something that was scaring them to death. The same thing that made them all leave the safety of their Tent. The same thing that drove the remainder to the so called Den in the Ravine, and where MUTILATIONS may have taken place.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: neni_cesty_zpet on September 22, 2022, 07:35:21 AM
My theory explaining worst wounds - happened under cedar

It's possible that they left the tent in bad weather with poor visibility...

Climbing takes a lot of energy. I think the reason why they were scavenging woods from this tree is because they did not want to walk in deep snow there, they were not
properly booted after all.
They decided to cut branches on this tree. Empty "window" on cedar was result of cut branches, not intended  to see in ten's direction.

The group was cooperating on this place around cedar to build fire. Two members were climbing the tree and cutting branches and two members were down,
picking up cut branches on ground below. I believe that it's possible that there was a spot without snow(or very little snow) under the cedar's treetop, that's
what I see sometimes in winter countryside.

But the heat of fire was not enough and they started developing hypothermia. The climbers vere surely standing on branches and it's possible that the branch under
their feet or bottoms suddenly cracked.
Their limbs were already slighly numb at that moment. One or both fell down onto comrades who were picking up cut branches.
Zolotarev and Lyudmila were worst wounded...

They were holding the trunk for stability in treetop, but it caused them moderate scratches (and skin left on trunk) after branch under their feet(or bottoms in case
of sitting on tree) cracked.

Was the knife used for cutting branches found? Was it the same knife someone used for slashing the tent?  dunno1

Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 22, 2022, 09:26:23 AM

As I said, the tent only had the 3 cuts made in it horizontal and semi circular. The big cuts came from the  ice ax as the searchers hacked into it. So the hikers had to have left through the door. If they left through the door, what was the rush that they could not have put on proper clothing? This is the part that is unanswered for me.

The tent was found mostly buttoned up (only one button was undone).

If they left via the door they couldn't have been in a rush because they had time to button it back up.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 22, 2022, 09:34:34 AM
My theory explaining worst wounds - happened under cedar

It's possible that they left the tent in bad weather with poor visibility...

Climbing takes a lot of energy. I think the reason why they were scavenging woods from this tree is because they did not want to walk in deep snow there, they were not
properly booted after all.
They decided to cut branches on this tree. Empty "window" on cedar was result of cut branches, not intended  to see in ten's direction.

The group was cooperating on this place around cedar to build fire. Two members were climbing the tree and cutting branches and two members were down,
picking up cut branches on ground below. I believe that it's possible that there was a spot without snow(or very little snow) under the cedar's treetop, that's
what I see sometimes in winter countryside.

But the heat of fire was not enough and they started developing hypothermia. The climbers vere surely standing on branches and it's possible that the branch under
their feet or bottoms suddenly cracked.
Their limbs were already slighly numb at that moment. One or both fell down onto comrades who were picking up cut branches.
Zolotarev and Lyudmila were worst wounded...

They were holding the trunk for stability in treetop, but it caused them moderate scratches (and skin left on trunk) after branch under their feet(or bottoms in case
of sitting on tree) cracked.

Was the knife used for cutting branches found? Was it the same knife someone used for slashing the tent?  dunno1

Excellent. We have a new theory!


Ravine 4 injuries not caused by a fallen tree but by falling comrades. Plausible and requires no conspiracy or supernatural events. Honestly it's the best explanation for the ravine 4 injuries I've read so far.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 22, 2022, 06:09:52 PM
Can you reconcile having a "spy hole" in the tree while simultaneously having a fire on the ground? Should they not be mutually exclusive? If not, then I could accept looking back toward the tent for direction before accepting looking out for marauding people or critters.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 23, 2022, 01:33:27 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 23, 2022, 02:49:58 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 23, 2022, 01:16:04 PM
Полураздетым людям нужен костёр, а не продукты. До лабаза 2 км., а до кедра 1,5 км. Лабаз скрыт за продуваемым перевалом, а лес перед глазами.

Кедр - лучшее топливо для костра:
Quote
Кедр - это настоящий король для костра. Сухие сучья этого дерева настоящая находка для путника. костер с помощью кедровых дров можно развести даже в самую сырую погоду. Костер будет давать ровное, красивое пламя и отличный жар. Древесина кедра не дымит и не стреляет.

Идеальными дровами для костра будут кедровые. Если вы хоть раз проведете ночевку у костра на кедровых дровах, никогда не забудете этой превосходной ночевки. В дальнейшем больше никогда не захотите выбрать другие дрова для костра.

https://dzen.ru/media/id/604b1202fa7bf6638f2a9bdc/samye-luchshie-drova-dlia-kostra-moi-opyt-teper-jgu-koster-tolko-iz-etoi-drevesiny-605040476c861f01074efab0


У лабаза были "хилые сырые ели". Дятловцы это уже знали.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 23, 2022, 06:04:58 PM
What makes sense to me is that the hikers must have weighted their options of retreating to their cache, or proceeding to the woods.I think they went to the woods for these reasons (1) They believed the forest was closer that it was. (2) It was downhill from the tent,(3l abundant firewood (4) windbreak shelter (5) it would only be for a couple of hours till daybreak.

In the forest, perhaps they dug in the failed snow cave first, then came back to the cedar for fire and orientation toward the tent. Finally the last three hikers tried to make it back to the tent to help any of their distressed friends. It did not work out.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 23, 2022, 07:41:24 PM
I think it's quite possible that they were "lost" for the last days.

They climbed up to the pass, then descended back down to Auspiya instead of continuing on to Lozva. This means losing a day.

They then set up the tent on the slope, in a snowstorm with apparently zero visibility. It could be that this is not where they intended to camp but had no other option, because of the storm. And they had no idea where they were.


And then they went to the Lozva valley while their storage was in the Auspiya valley.

I think this was either a mistake, or they couldn't go to Auspiya for some reason. Charles, do you think this reason was because they were attacked and the attackers didn't let them?

For me, an ambush is very hard to consider, because their bodies were just left there. Who would do that and why?

No. Most likely they just went to the wrong valley, but it's also possible that the perceived danger that made them leave the tent was coming from the direction of the storage, so they avoided it. Or that it was just too cold and they thought it's further away than the cedar.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 23, 2022, 09:11:32 PM
Under any circumstance, I still like the slab slip explanation over the others. Making cold camp in whiteout conditions, crazy cold and tired, yeah, it could have happened just that way. Sad business but deucedly interesting.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 24, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 24, 2022, 04:00:48 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 24, 2022, 01:35:04 PM
There are several other factors too. For example, they had compasses. And the wind blows from the NW, so going to the cache would have meant tailwind, whereas going to the cedar meant wind from the left which is worse in my opinion. Considering it's cold wind in -20C conditions.

And like you say they also didn't know the Lozva valley so they were going to the unknown.


All these point to the rational decision being a return to the cache. But they didn't do that. I think we only differ in our opinion on why...


Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 24, 2022, 01:54:22 PM
Regarding a snow slip,

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/3-021.jpg)
It doesn't look like there has been one... This is wind carved layered snow that thawed and refroze into layers. Maybe there was an entire other layer on top that got blown away since, but the fact is the search found the tent, almost buried in this. If there was another layer the tent was dug into that has since disappeared, the tent wouldn't have been buried.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 24, 2022, 09:36:11 PM
Perhaps if the hikers chose the cache over the woods, that would have ended the expedition right then and there. Instead, hoping to salvage the expedition, they chose not to raid their reserves, but instead to make for the forest temporarily to regroup and return to their tent a few hours later. I believe they lost a day previously on their schedule. That was a day's worth of resources.

Since there is no clear proof the hikers were assaulted by man nor beast, and since neither their tent, nor cache were raided for supplies, I conclude they acted without external threat from marauders. What is left is a natural occurrence. The tent was found collapsed and partially buried. It could have been an earthquake, katabatic wind or lights in the sky, but what was left was a snow covered canvas tent with a collapsed middle, broken ski poles and three corpses on the way back to it.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 04:58:38 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 05:50:08 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 06:55:49 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 07:39:46 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 10:16:41 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 25, 2022, 01:36:41 PM
The coroner described trauma on the deceased. If this was inflicted  by humans, I would expect the report to say something like blunt force trauma consistent with bludgeoning with a club, rifle butt etc. There was no such description. There was identification of wounds and a general analysis of their cause. Nothing directly points to homicide. If we want to take a deep dive into those who were peripheral to this tragedy, I say, follow the money.

Further, unless the assailants brought brooms, where are their prints? True too, that just like me, everyone on this forum sees things through their own personal filter. Trying to make your filter superior by denigration another's is a sure fire recipe for ostracism. You do not get two to make a first impression.

I believe the comment made about getting oriented in the new surroundings as a function of time is a very good one. The conclusion must then be that the hikers decided to not retreat to the cache as a clear choice. This might even have additional support by the,evidence of the three who returned to the tent were not redirecting themselves to the cache. It is indicative of choice. It's also commonsense if the tent was physically closer to the cedar than the cache was.

Sixty years makes for a very cold case. Unless there are deathbed confessions or those missing tissue samples turn up with incriminating evidence, I think the Russian authorities recent conclusion about the incident is the correct one. Good people got caught out in an  situation that proved fatal. They fled the immediate danger, they prepared fire, they may have had canned milk, they took clothes from deceased comrades, they tried a snow cave. They got cold, hurt and separated. It did not turn out well.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 03:13:25 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 25, 2022, 03:26:01 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 25, 2022, 07:52:55 PM
Hi Charles,

The quotes you use and then highlight in bold , in my opinion are misleading. For example , you select these specific phrase's

"External examination showed damage, such as multiple abrasions and skin wounds caused by a blunt object that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice, and other objects.(...) The death is violent and accidental."

By selecting bits of quotes , it does not communicate the complete narrative.

The quote"Wounds caused by a blunt object " also has example's and an explanation offered. "that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice" no where does it say it was a rifle butt or otherwise.

Dr Vozrozhdenny's conclusion was through violence to the body. It's all he can conclude.

He says "the death is violent and accidental". Which is a bit of an oxymoron but accidental is the conclusion , which is why they say "compelling overwhelming force"

Having had a Google on natural force and what it means.

What is Natural Forces
1.Events that occur in the environment due to nature and one that is not under the control of human beings.

Nowhere do they say they found evidence
Of violence in the sense it was done by others. It's speculation and much of this speculation is done after the media release the information of the ravine 4. It's basically been fudged up through years of books and pure speculation.

Having read more, thought and considered things, I believe the stream was dammed before they even excavated the ravine 4, the photo of LYUDMILA DUBININA in the stream might not even tell the full story of how her body was resting under the snow. I now think she may have been floating before they dammed the stream which would explain how she came to rest in that exact position. It was also reported that it was the clothes of the ravine 4 that were holding the bodies together . Again it's just food for thought but the searchers weren't looking for murder, it is only later they speculate.

 Dr Vozrozhdenny said what he believes  may have caused some of the injuries and I think the word "violence " is used in the context of a "force" and this force is concluded to be a natural force. That is all that is reported.....so I'm with GlennM

For those that think it was outsiders, I am fine with it and wait to be convinced....
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 25, 2022, 08:41:05 PM
В России несчастный случай считается насильственной смертью:
Quote
Родами насильственной смерти являются: убийство, самоубийство, несчастный случай.
https://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=386

Утонул, упал с высоты, ударило молнией, замёрз, попал под поезд, автомобиль - всё это насильственная смерть.

Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 26, 2022, 12:20:29 AM

Thank you Igor B

В России несчастный случай считается насильственной смертью:
Quote
Родами насильственной смерти являются: убийство, самоубийство, несчастный случай.
https://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=386

Утонул, упал с высоты, ударило молнией, замёрз, попал под поезд, автомобиль - всё это насильственная смерть.



Igor B writes:

In Russia, an accident is considered a violent death:

The types of violent death are: murder, suicide, accident.

He drowned, fell from a height, was struck by lightning, froze, got hit by a train, a car - all this is a violent death.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 26, 2022, 12:49:02 AM
@charles

Here's the full conclusion for Zina. I won't go through them all but I'll highlight, in bold what Dr Vozrozhdenny said was the cause of death.

Sheet 134

CONCLUSION

Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances of the case, we feel that the death of Kolmogorova was the result of cool temperatures/freezing, as evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the hyperaemia of the internal organs, the dark liquid blood in the heart cavities, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the fourth-degree frostbite on the third distal phalanges of the fingers; the injuries found on Kolmogorova’s body in the form of abrasions and skin wounds were caused by a blunt instrument and the result of a fall and injuries on rocks, ice and snow.

The above-mentioned injuries occurred while Kolmogorova was alive, in the agonal state, and posthumously.

The investigation of the body of Komogоrova allows for the basis of theory that she last ate 6-8 hours before the time of death. Alcohol was not detected during the investigation. Kolmogorova’s virginity is still intact. The cause of death was violent and accidental.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 26, 2022, 04:19:44 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 26, 2022, 05:19:30 AM
Charles,

Hypothetically Dr Vozrozhdenny could have wrote " I do not think it was murder" , you would then quote the sentence to "it was murder" .

Blunt object just means that it was not sharp , then he suggests possible reasons , rocks , ice, or other objects and then uses "etc" because he's giving an example, not because he's saying it was something else in a secret code. It just the blunt objects in the environment that the bodies were found.

As Igor B points out , the word violence is used to cover

1/murder,
2/suicide,
3/accident.

So I read that Dr Vozrozhdenny concluded that the death was violence under category 3/ which is accidental .

So Dr Vozrozhdenny was stating it wasn't  1/ murder, or  2/ suicide.....

Anyway for a bit of entertainment, I had a search for the definition of bludgeoning.


bludgeon used as a verb:

To strike or hit with something hard, usually on the head; to club. "The apprehended rioter was bludgeoned to death." To coerce someone, as if with a bludgeon. "Their favorite method was bludgeoning us with the same old arguments in favor of their opinions."

Maybe that's all of us?  bang1
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 26, 2022, 05:43:27 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 26, 2022, 08:52:05 AM
оружие translates to weapon for me

I read it as тупым орудием which is blunt object.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 26, 2022, 06:28:20 PM
I believe that no expert on this forum was part of the official Soviet reevaluation of the DPI. Could it be that our experts have a personal agenda they wish to promote by selling a product or systematically alienating other members? Could their arguements be structured by" cherry picking" the facts and speculations that reinforce their particular point of view? It seems to me that the Russian authorities did a wholesale dismissal of esoteric theories, including stalking. They confined their study to what natural conditions could induce the behavior that led to the fatalities. They ruled out avalanche. They ruled out being buried in a blizzard. They determined that the hikers followed good practice in making their shelter, but were defeated by the nature of the ice pack coupled the effect of katabatic wind on the snowpack.

Since these events which led to the hikers demise are transient, their assessment appears based on finding the explanation requiring the least amount of assumptions, coupled with the evidentiary record. For me, all the alternate theories require the piling on of additional " what if's" which serve to spin the story in the direction of their choice. Being caught out in a slab slip is not glamorous. Everything that followed was the best choices based on their immediate circumstance. It does seem that at some point you could argue that group cohesion fell apart. I do not think so. What happened at the tent, the tree, the den and the way back to the tent all seem to suggest an effort to get the best outcome in what should have been a temporary inconvenience.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 26, 2022, 07:46:26 PM
@GlennM

I agree with you and I don't class myself as an expert in any way, shape or form. I have to work hard at erasing my prejudice from my initial introduction to the mystery with all its sensationalism.

As I continue to read the testimonies and listen to others on here, I find that the authorities followed reasonable and transparent processes given their resources and understanding at that time. To have military , police , volunteers and local Mansi help in the search is standard practice in all parts of the world. I would be more suspicious if they kept the students and locals away from the search. The soldiers were drafted in with metal detectors , which again is standard practice to search for bodies on a snow covered mountain.

Obviously there's confusion in statements and dates etc but that's maybe more to poor communication and experience.  The fact that it's so open to speculation and non conclusive lends its self that the investigation wasn't a cover up of anything sinister. If it was something that the authorities knew about and wanted to hide, it would have been hidden with a solid outcome that would leave no doubt to the public.


To go back to topic , for me,Igor B's proposal that the hikers went to the ceder as this was the most suitable wood for making a fire is logical.  The window in the tree was the area that the hikers would try to claim branches from because it is the dryer wood, The "window " in the ceder coincidentally faced the slope and tent as this was the direction of the prevailing wind which would help dry these branches. The dead wood on the ground was damp /frozen and green wood is of little use. The ceder tree and its branches offered the best guarantee of making a fire.

Simply put, the footprints found on the slope lead the searchers to the ceder.The remains of a fire was found at the base of this tree from the branches broken off the ceder. Some burnt clothes were found along with other items and the evidence that activity had taken place in that area. The two Yuri's were found with injuries consistent with people trying to climb a tree and with less clothing. Burns on one of the hikers next to the fire were reported . It looks like a decision was made.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 03:23:53 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 03:38:41 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 04:28:05 AM
Hypothetically Dr Vozrozhdenny could have wrote " I do not think it was murder" , you would then quote the sentence to "it was murder".

I just have to quote the possibility of a doubt.

"fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc."

"падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее"

Doubt, opening, possibility... it's enough, and enough for me. I don't need more.

And Vozrozhdenny didn't write "it was not murder"... you know ?

Charles,

I don't wish to be combative and I'm happy to contemplate all theories, you have also made some interesting observations and put forward some new ideas. You are well travelled, articulate and educated far more than I.

I'm well aware that you are not comfortable with a stinky skunk, avalanche or the possibility of the hikers ribs being broken from another person from the group falling from the ceder amoungst a few of your comments. This is your prerogative and I'm not trying to stop you.

I'm not a 100% on any theory but I lean towards Igor B's,....and there's a reason for that. He goes into great detail of why he comes to his conclusions and gives supporting evidence and for me, this links to his next observation and so on. I would love to catch him out but I can't ...yet. His ideas go a long way to explain every detail in a logical systematic way. I'm not trying to promote Igor b's ideas, it's just that they have important findings that may support someone's else's theory. He also has the advantage of speaking Russian and that is an important resource for all of us.

Yesterday Igor B highlighted how the word "violence" was used in the autopsy. That death by violence covered , murder, suicide and accident. I believe you then retrospectively edited your post to accommodate this in to earlier posts along with your translation that used the word weapon rather than instrument.

I'm cautious of short quotes , especially when used to create a biased opinion and I think this mystery has had far too much exaggeration on a number of aspects. It would be nice to debate ideas without being distructive of others . I am also guilty of being impatient with others , so I'm not having a go at you.

My example on Vozrozhdenny was an exaggeration, because of your shortened quotes. I want to keep respect for you and not to go back and forth double checking the context of your quotes or re-edited versions of your posts.

I do keep an opening of possibility for outsiders involvement and all possibilities but I like to weigh up the evidence, read others opinions and not have it force fed.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 04:53:31 AM
for me,Igor B's proposal that the hikers went to the ceder as this was the most suitable wood for making a fire is logical.

What logic to run to the unknown when you have a storage just nearby? First explain how the hikers were at the cedar instead to be at the labaz.

Short answer is, because the ceder was a better option, better wood for burning, the wood at the labaz was poor. Perhaps food and a pair boots were not the priority at that moment in time? There might be some translation errors with what follows




Igor b writes:

The best firewood for a fire:

Quote
Cedar is the real king for a campfire. The dry branches of this tree are a real find for the traveler. a fire with the help of cedar firewood can be made even in the wettest weather. The fire will give an even, beautiful flame and excellent heat. Cedar wood does not smoke or shoot.

Ideal firewood for a fire would be cedar. If you ever spend the night by the fire on cedar wood, you will never forget this excellent overnight stay. In the future, you will never again want to choose other wood for a fire.

From Igor b's link , leads to this:

Igor b writes:


Why did the branches of the cedar be broken off at high altitude? Because the best fuel for a fire was dry cedar branches. From the site inspection report:

Image



Quote
near the cedar, dry branches are broken off in 2 - 2.5 meters. The branches are broken off on the cedar itself.

Igor b writes:

The Dyatlovites did not use living wood and deadwood in the fire for a well-known reason:

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=76174

And dry branches on cedars can be not only below, but also above , at high altitude, where the cold wind in winter is especially strong. Branches and die from withering wind from the windward side.
At the Dyatlov cedar, the windward (western) side coincidentally faced the tent.

Igor b writes:

Why didn't the Dyatlovites use deadwood in the fire?

Image

Image

Quote
Faced such a problem. Since the weather this winter jumped from plus to minus, with wet snow, all the firewood was completely saturated with ice. We had to cut down healthy trees, but having cut down we were very surprised that even their core was frosted through. As a result, we could not melt the stove in the tent, we drowned with small branches trying to dry the large ones (they did not catch fire).
Quote
My son and I were in a similar situation.
There was a cyclone, everything got wet, and then it froze. Firewood is raw.
They lit only logs of logs.
But the fire still burned terribly.
Firewood, warming up on a fire, began to fill it with a melted crust of ice.
Quote
I myself did not expect such a situation. A full forest of firewood, dry land - the sea, but he does not burn a dog.
Brushwood is generally a stupid thing. Ice stick.
And in this situation, the most difficult thing is not making a fire, but maintaining the flame and the necessary heat.http://nepropadu.ru/blog/guestroom/10714.html

At the Dyatlov Pass in December 2015:
Quote
With firewood, as they wrote in the reports, everything is bad (they do not burn).Reasonable efforts of the fire did not work, I had to cook on a burner.

At the very first night in a tent, I was convinced that firewood is often a problem. You find a dryer, saw / prick, burn chips, then put them in a larger one, then wave, even larger ... While you wave, it burns perfectly. Stopped waving - does not burn. Dry, coniferous species - and does not burn. Well, there are some places like that.

Bring firewood, chop it, dig at least some kind of fire pit, make sure that firewood is not firewood, look for alternative coniferous branches (which burn perfectly, but burn out very quickly), dance with a tambourine around the hearth - all this is very long.


Bonfires were not every day, because. they took a lot of time (pit + firewood + dances with a tambourine, so that non-burning firewood somehow burned). Once, during the late setting of the camp and long exercises with a fire, I fought back only at 05 in the morning.https://www.risk.ru/blog/207346?http://www.....ru/blog/207346

From the diary of the Dyatlov group dated January 31, 1959:
Quote
Firewood is scarce. Sickly raw spruce.

Igor b writes:

Even if the Christmas trees were damp, then what can we say about the deadwood birch. From the autumn rains, he absorbed water and, lying on the ground, did not dry out by winter. Warming on the eve of the incident before the arrival of the cold front only added to the dampness.

Thus, the Dyatlovites had no other fuel for the fire, except for dry, dead cedar branches, most of which were located on the windward western side, i.e. from the side coincidentally facing the tent.

It was impossible to warm up with nine half-dressed people around a fire made of branches, and even divorced for known reasons in a strong wind. Branches quickly burn out and people who are forced to constantly extract such fuel for a fire are supercooled more than they warm up.


Basically,Igor b is saying, that the dead wood on the ground would be damp and frozen , will not burn well and takes work to do so if at all. However the ceder tree would be a good source for dry wood as the wind will have help dry out the branches that faced the slope. Sounds logical to me.....
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 07:59:49 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 09:43:46 AM
Charlie

You first wrote

Dr Vozrozhdenny wrote "Тупое оружие" which is translated as "blunt instrument".


Searching Yandex for pictures with key word "Тупое оружие" gives interesting results:

From what I can gather, this translates to "dumb/silly/stupid, weapon/gun"

https://yandex.com/images/search?

text=Тупое oружие


Thus your pictures of silly looking guns

And search with "opужиe" (translated as "object", "instrument", blunt or not) is even funnier:


https://yandex.com/images/search? text=оружие

I like a lot how Yandex answers to the query "Tyпoe opужиe" (blunt object):



I think you were asking yandex for blunt and dumb weapons , a stupid tool.

[You edited your post after I had highlighted the error and I suspect you tried to translate from English first, then to Russian. You also edited about the categories of murder, suicide and accident in your other posts.

However , I am learning that russian is a bit complex and "blunt object "is used and covers a number of possibilities. I shall need to work on the contexts. Igor B might help.


Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Игорь Б. on September 27, 2022, 10:33:01 AM
Судмедэксперт Возрожденный обязан был использовать слово "твёрдый тупой предмет", как полагается в судебной-медицине:
https://forensicmedicine.ru/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82

Тем более, что он не знал, чем именно были причинены повреждения. Он предполагал, что повреждения "могли возникнуть в результате падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее".
"Камни, лёд и прочее" при падении не являются "орудием" (tool).
Использование судмедэкспертом Возрожденным слова "орудие" (tool) - профессиональная неграмотность.

Даже это называется "Blunt objects":
http://preview.photoxpress.ru/preview/photoxpress_ru/news_info/3217611444.jpg
https://govorim.by/uploads/posts/2012-02/13300867946145015.jpeg
(надпись: Тупые предметы)
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 11:24:55 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 27, 2022, 11:40:51 AM
So let's assume for a second that persons inflicted these wounds on the hikers.

How did they get to the pass? How did they leave? Contemporary accounts say that there weren't many traces... there were ski traces leading from Auspiya to the tent (assumed to be from Dyatlovites), and footprints from the tent to the forest (Dyatlovites). There is also some mention of boot prints as if someone had already been there, perhaps the KGB.

But it's almost impossible to get there in boots. Did the attackers fly in by helicopter and then walk around to attack the tent? But there were no footprints leading to the tent. Or did they use broadskis that leave almost no trace, such as the fur trimmed skis used by  the natives? Would anyone else have such skis?

Or, one last possibility I can think of is that they followed the Dyatlov group's ski tracks on skis, and then walked from the tent, so their traces would be indistinguishable from the Dyatlov group's... except how did they return from the forest?See? It doesn't really add up either way
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 01:11:01 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 02:52:27 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 03:13:59 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 03:48:38 PM





The hikers passed that ridge when walking to their last campsite, they knew they just had to down the slope by pressing on their right to reach their labaz (no hard uphill walk, it was downhill till the labaz). If a partition in the group ever happened, it should have been at the tent, between some silly enough to choose the unknown and a few wiser individuals choosing the labaz.

For me, there is a triangle: Tent-Labaz-Cedar, which has to be solved. Any explanation by "natural cause" has to solve this triangle. That is to say, if natural conditions forced the hikers to abandon the tent and run for their life, then life was the labaz, on the right side of the ridge, downslope and nearby.


How and why would you explain them going to the ceder from the tent  and not going to the labaz then Charles?

Surly any explanation would need to explain this triangle of why they didn't go to the labaz , not just "natural cause" . (Although you have been given one) and how do you explain the "window" in the ceder? What made them go to the ceder??
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 04:09:59 PM
Судмедэксперт Возрожденный обязан был использовать слово "твёрдый тупой предмет", как полагается в судебной-медицине:
https://forensicmedicine.ru/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82

Тем более, что он не знал, чем именно были причинены повреждения. Он предполагал, что повреждения "могли возникнуть в результате падения или ушиба о камни, лед и прочее".
"Камни, лёд и прочее" при падении не являются "орудием" (tool).
Использование судмедэкспертом Возрожденным слова "орудие" (tool) - профессиональная неграмотность.

Даже это называется "Blunt objects":
http://preview.photoxpress.ru/preview/photoxpress_ru/news_info/3217611444.jpg
https://govorim.by/uploads/posts/2012-02/13300867946145015.jpeg
(надпись: Тупые предметы)

Thank you Igor B
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 27, 2022, 05:27:01 PM
Nice to read some thoughtful ideas sans hubris. It is clear the hikers went to the tree, not the Labaz. I contend that using cached supplies would signal the end of any advance to Ortoten. They went to the woods instead. Was the cedar climbed and used for making a good fire? A fire was made,that much is known. The cedar may have been climbed.

Were they, the hikers,mugged? It seems inefficient. If marauders wanted something,and they had armament,they could take that they wanted. If the bad actors were larking around in a helicopter, why no beer cans? They could dispatch the hikers, bury them and depart. Would they beat the kids up and leave them for dead? Would any of us be so bold as to risk the chance that one in nine might live to tell the tale? Did the marauders lay a trap at the cedar? If so, I bet they were surprised when the party marched in displaying their states of undress! Just where are your shoes? No murderer is going to kill their victims and leave evidence of their crime unless they wanted notoriety. Nobody claimed responsibility.  Too,they would have had at least a week to get away. I do not recall any mention of a jailbreak.

For the most part, these hikers knew each other well, both personally and reputation. I think a defection during amcrisis of weather is unlikely given that nobody elected to remain at the tent, nor veer to the Labaz. The hikers did all the right things for all the right reasons, but Nature is indifferent to reason. Cold and gravity won out.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 05:51:15 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 27, 2022, 06:52:25 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 07:01:57 PM
What made them go to the ceder??

My hypothesis is presented here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1127.0

Thank you Charles, I did read over it at the time of posting but it all got a bit confusing with the posts that followed. I will need to read over it several times and go back and forth. It would be good if you could put some links to the early events and statements regarding the first murder.

Probably the best theory of outsiders being involved with a plausible motive to take such a risk. (That's always being missing for me) . Obviously there's some bits I dismiss and I think are unnecessary but it is a strong case. It deserves more comments to be honest.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on September 27, 2022, 07:22:44 PM

[/quote]
I didn't noticed that fact until now, from Slobtsov's testimony:

From the tent in the direction of the wind, i.e. in the direction where there were traces of people's feet, at a distance of about 0.5-1 m, we found several slippers from different pairs, and ski caps and other small objects were scattered.

Charles

Yep, that's the whole point and has been part of the mystery for years. I'll need to find the links but if memory serves me right , there are reports of bare feet outside the tent , standing and meeting together, there was no sign of a rush. There seemed to be some activity before they chose to , or were forced to go to the Ceder.  Zolotaryov has odd socks under his felt boots and there are some sneakers etc and jackets lying about. ( But some reports differ) . One of the jackets was reported to be in a hole of the tent. This has been suggested to be block the hole for the unused stove.

So the Wolverine spray is the suggestion for discarding the items.

A snow slip or slide escalating making them decide to move faster and just move from that area.

Or some people with a gun telling them to go down the slope . ( Although I would have thought they would of told them all to undress .)


Re: The footprints, the footprints ...

Charles ,There are a number of contradictions between Boris and Sharavin in this link below and I believe they reference they guy you talked about that had control of the search. Also Sharavin says he takes a diary but Boris says they took nothing.  Let me know what you think.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=922.msg18381#msg18381



Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Manti on September 27, 2022, 11:13:24 PM
Just some scattered thoughts.... they did lose the flashlight on the way down. Either lost it or intentionally discarded it, but I think it's unlikely it would fail exactly during this short trip. So it's not the case they only lost things near the tent and cedar.


Plus, those things near the tent might have been blown out of it by the wind.




Regarding the skis that leave no trace, here is a demonstration


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWYXD1KvHEw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWYXD1KvHEw)
I call these broad ski as opposed to the modern narrow "Alpine" ski. They are in use to this day by native people in Siberia. However, it does look like they leave a trace.




Also wanted to make a related point... If we suppose the attackers had these broad skis, they were probably natives. For many reasons they have been ruled out during the investigation, but here's an additional one. They wouldn't leave the corpses lying out there like that. It's really bad, because when spring comes, the bears will find them. And the last thing you want is your local bears  getting a taste for human meat.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on September 28, 2022, 04:47:29 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on September 28, 2022, 04:58:51 PM
.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 05:00:02 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 08:09:32 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 11, 2022, 09:11:32 AM
Interesting as always Charles.

I don't think you can write falling as a cause of death in this case. The bruises , marks on hands and legs are superficial. Some these injuries could of happened during their previous day's , setting up camp, cutting logs and so on.

The injuries on the limbs are consistent with falling, and given the information and items found at the scene I don't think anything else could be written. I'm no expert but if these are injuries from a fight for your life , I would expect to see a lot more broken bones on the skull and damage to the hands.

I don't think we can exclude the fact that the ravine 4 were found under hard snow of several feet. The injuries to the ravine 4 are consistent with a snow collapse. If you take into consideration the damage to the heads, they are on the right side as you point out. Given the broken ribs and the non damage to their left side,it would suggest a blow from above. IE, a large weight of snow.

The marks on the others are similar to other hyperthermia cases, especially when fighting to survive in the last moments. Tunneling against the snow and falling on knuckles. Limbs are freezing up, there may have been crawling on hands(closed fists) and knees unable to stand.

I'm not disagreeing but there is little supporting evidence for them to conclude anything other than accident. There's no knife wounds, no bullets, broken jaws/eye sockets, broken fingers ,wrists or knuckles . There's nothing to suggest there was a fight to the death. It could be argued that there was a gun , to stop them fighting back, but at some point I would have expected them to fight back. Using teeth and breaking their own bones in the process.

So with the evidence of the autopsy, I can't see what else could be concluded by the examiner.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 09:45:49 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 10:05:23 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 11, 2022, 10:28:27 AM
Slobodin's skull had a fracture. This may have been caused by the freezing of the fluid in the exposed neck whilst the hat insulated the top part of the skull . There is some evidence that this happens in medical research.

The injuries are minor with regards to the falls or blunt instrumen. The only injures suggesting cause of death are the ribs and the two skull fractures. One in slobodin's and the other in Brigionol.

3 of which were in the ravine.

Why did they not just cut their necks or strangle them?

And yes , you were informed by Igor b that the violent death meant murder, suicide and accident.

If there was some cover up or pressure why did they even bother to expose so much detail in the autopsy?
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 11, 2022, 10:30:23 AM
Charles
PS, hold my beer, I'm off to Google "see Afanasiev's works on Russian fairytales"
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 11, 2022, 10:32:38 AM
Charles,

I can't see anything about snow caves/holes with regards to , "see Afanasiev's works on Russian fairytales"
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 11:20:03 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 11:30:01 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 11, 2022, 12:07:02 PM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 11, 2022, 01:52:01 PM
Hi Charles,

I might be communicating poorly. There is a possibility that they found a natural snow hole/ cave , it's how snow drifts in undulating land Scape . I don't understand your links , it does not mean anything I say is fact or correct . But it would be prudent to.reflect , perhaps?
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 12, 2022, 12:48:12 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 12, 2022, 03:17:56 AM
Charles,

It's not a competition , you're quoting an old fairytale book as evidence? Whether you like it or not, snow caves/holes exist in real life, they can form naturally or be man made. I'm not sure if you are visualising something that is completely different .

You also re edit your posts when you get things wrong, almost like the case files and diaries perhaps ?

There's no blunt objects , they are in your imagination ? Anyway ,give us the explanation to the injuries....

Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Charles on October 12, 2022, 03:53:20 AM
nothing here
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on October 12, 2022, 05:06:41 AM
Charles,

There is evidence for it, there's broken ribs and fractures, 4 people found under 2 meters of hard snow. Snow that was different to the surrounding snow. This would indicate that the snow went through a process . The injuries are consistent with a land slip/collapse. This could be earth , sand, snow . In this instance it looks like snow.

  There is mention in the DPI of it being a possibility. I won't say where as it was already available to you. You even select what you read and ignore other people's ideas and then plagiarize others when it suits you. You didn't even know what accidental meant in the autopsy.

As of yet ,you haven't come up with an explanation for the injuries , you have also criticised every other persons suggestions whilst changing your own hypothesis.

So, I put it to you to explain the injuries, how were they done ? Why were the bodies found in these locations? Why did they leave the tent? What instrument caused the injuries? What broke the ribs? Why were the ravine four under so much snow? Just facts Charles , let's see them.

Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on October 12, 2022, 04:33:13 PM
Such rumblings! Here is a bit of a diversion.  Nurse Solter claimed to receive and wash the deceased. What I am unclear on is what happened next. Were they transported out for burial, or were they returned to the forest for rediscovery? If the latter is true, that is telling.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ehtnisba on November 04, 2022, 07:58:28 PM
Hello Manti

I think it's quite possible that they were "lost" for the last days.

They climbed up to the pass, then descended back down to Auspiya instead of continuing on to Lozva. This means losing a day.

Yes but they descended back to leave a part of the charge at the storage. It was a rational decision. And progression was easier after loosing weight to carry. It was a very legit decision. It was not being lost in terms of geography.  Maybe lost in terms of strength and stamina, but not lost as they could no longer orient themselves.

And they had no idea where they were.

No, they knew their position. Perfectly. They set up the storage at the correct position to easily find it after the loop when walking back from Otorten.

And then they went to the Lozva valley while their storage was in the Auspiya valley.

Hard to believe it was by mistake. They were above the pass. When facing the slope, the storage was on their right, and they left tracks of a nine hikers group, fresh tracks from the previous day. And even if a storm erased the tracks, the direction was easy: to the right. Reaching the storage was not a complex maneuver, it was easy.

And if they were in a storm with low visibility why walk to the unknown? The partial footprints went straight to the cedar, no curve as if they deviated, straight path.

I think this was either a mistake, or they couldn't go to Auspiya for some reason.

But the storage was at the same distance and downslope as well. If they split, two groups would have arrived at the same time at the cedar and at the storage. The one at the storage finding fire wood, sausages, shoes, torches... The storage was not miles away, not on the other side of high mountains, not at walking days of distance, it was just nearby. And at the location of their previous camp.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-map-07.jpg)

The only "action" needed to reach the storage was walking down the slope "to the right". Because the tent was at an higher altitude than the pass, they couldn't miss the Auspiya valley and the storage, it was the easiest task to perform. They face down the slope, they walk to the right, they get to the storage in a few minutes. Because, actually, we talk about missing the Auspiya valley... indeed! They walked in the opposite direction... they missed a valley!

So we have again to destroy them as human beings... to deprive them of all qualities, to the level of forgetting the right and the left or even of loosing memory of their equipment left at the nearby storage. And suddenly giving these qualities back to light fire in a storm, to build a den, to cooperate, work, etc.

Because they were not on flat ground, they had the slope as a help to guide them: coming back on their steps was at right hand when facing down the slope. With the slope as a guide, they could make it by night, in a whiteout, even blindfolded...

We understand better if we rotate the maps:

(https://i.ibb.co/FkrV348/Dyatlov-pass-map-07.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/8KjXcLz/Dyatlov-Pass-map.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j6LHRPV)

And the question is why were the hikers allegedly climbing in the cedar to find fire wood and dying of hypothermia in the Lozva valley while their storage was waiting in the Auspiya valley ? Supposing that Nature didn't want them to stay or to come back at their tent: why choose left and not right ?

The rotated map helps a lot. Even in fog is to the right. I am a skier and in fog this what I need to remember being at higher bald place - left right or straight. It works and have been to say so lost. Following this logic never failed me. Once in tree zone the visibility rises and you bump into so so initial location and familiar terrain.
Not to sound harsh but you must be braindead to not go from where u have come. With all 9 braindeaders the picture of "let go towards there in the unknown cause we love Darwin award" does not fit reality. This is insult to be called "their own decision".
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on November 29, 2022, 09:44:02 AM
They may have used some of the branches for fire wood, but overall the evidence seems to point to them climbing the tree to find safety IMO.

So if this is the case then what would climbing a tree provide safety from?  Humans or animals , possibly fear of avalanche?

Regards
Star man
Especially if people are in the woods when it's dark and cold and they're running from something. They either climb trees or look for a place to hide under the snow or soil. The two Yuri were naked and needed a fire to keep warm. That's why they tried to start a fire. Then they realized that unknown coercive force was coming upon them. I think they both wanted to hide by climbing a tree. Their fingers froze because they were partially naked. A naked person gets hypothermia in a much shorter time at -20 degrees. Their body temperature drops a lot, and this is most evident in the toes and fingers. I think the two Yuri were attacked while they were sleeping in the tent.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Tony on January 27, 2023, 12:54:35 PM
The "window" is weird because a few of the investigators stated that none of the branches broken from the cedar were used in the fire. Instead, the hikers relied on smaller fir branches they had collected in and around the area of the cedar. It's possible that they meant to use them but never had the chance. It is also stated that the broken branches came from the windward side of the cedar and not the side that one would expect to collect branches (leeward side). One of the theories is that the hiker that climbed the cedar did so to clear a "window" to see back to the tent or get a birdseye view of the area. There are photos on this site that show that it is possible to see back to the tent from the cedar "window." But because the moon that night would not have been visible until 2:00 a.m. it is hard to believe that any of the hikers would have been able to see anymore that a few feet (or even inches) in front of them. I don't think they climbed the cedar to see back to the tent but also don't believe they climbed the cedar for wood (doesn't make sense to climb and collect wood from the windward side). It is another odd event in a string of odd occurences that happened that night.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on January 27, 2023, 03:33:14 PM
The "window" is weird because a few of the investigators stated that none of the branches broken from the cedar were used in the fire. Instead, the hikers relied on smaller fir branches they had collected in and around the area of the cedar. It's possible that they meant to use them but never had the chance. It is also stated that the broken branches came from the windward side of the cedar and not the side that one would expect to collect branches (leeward side). One of the theories is that the hiker that climbed the cedar did so to clear a "window" to see back to the tent or get a birdseye view of the area. There are photos on this site that show that it is possible to see back to the tent from the cedar "window." But because the moon that night would not have been visible until 2:00 a.m. it is hard to believe that any of the hikers would have been able to see anymore that a few feet (or even inches) in front of them. I don't think they climbed the cedar to see back to the tent but also don't believe they climbed the cedar for wood (doesn't make sense to climb and collect wood from the windward side). It is another odd event in a string of odd occurences that happened that night.

My recollection of reading about the branches is different. I thought they said there was branches/ wood on the ground that could have been used. There were some branches broken but not used and hanging on lower branches , those with needles . The hikers reported the day before, in their diaries that the wood was poor for burning.

To break off 80mm branches would be the easiest option to find dryer wood, especially without an axe . Like wise, the windward branches would be dryer from the wind? Maybe, perhaps ?

It seems logical to break the wood and ceder would be the best wood. Would it not? So many woulds / woods....
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 27, 2023, 09:06:11 PM
The "window" is weird because a few of the investigators stated that none of the branches broken from the cedar were used in the fire. Instead, the hikers relied on smaller fir branches they had collected in and around the area of the cedar. It's possible that they meant to use them but never had the chance. It is also stated that the broken branches came from the windward side of the cedar and not the side that one would expect to collect branches (leeward side). One of the theories is that the hiker that climbed the cedar did so to clear a "window" to see back to the tent or get a birdseye view of the area. There are photos on this site that show that it is possible to see back to the tent from the cedar "window." But because the moon that night would not have been visible until 2:00 a.m. it is hard to believe that any of the hikers would have been able to see anymore that a few feet (or even inches) in front of them. I don't think they climbed the cedar to see back to the tent but also don't believe they climbed the cedar for wood (doesn't make sense to climb and collect wood from the windward side). It is another odd event in a string of odd occurences that happened that night.
I said that the unknown coercive force gives light and it is very easy to see in the dark. So the dark weather does not prevent him from seeing it... It can even be seen more clearly in the dark... So Yuri climbed up the tree and searched for him. He made a window in it. When they couldn't see it, they thought he was gone and wanted to go back to the tent. You said you didn't want to go back to the tent! But they had to return to the tent. His vital clothing and food and tools were there. And in that they wanted to know if it was safe around the tent. And in this they had to climb to the cedar.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Missi on January 27, 2023, 10:20:28 PM
If your unknown force was giving  so much light, that it was possible to see clearly, why wasn't it possible to see said light without climbing a tree?
A light in the dark is visible over great distances. Especially when there's nothing in the way, which there isn't it's a flat area, no trees, no big boulders. And the fact, that it's a slope doesn't change much in that aspect.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 28, 2023, 07:03:51 AM
If your unknown force was giving  so much light, that it was possible to see clearly, why wasn't it possible to see said light without climbing a tree?
A light in the dark is visible over great distances. Especially when there's nothing in the way, which there isn't it's a flat area, no trees, no big boulders. And the fact, that it's a slope doesn't change much in that aspect.
It is not possible to see every part of the slope through the forest. And the light of unknown power does not illuminate the surroundings, it only illuminates itself. Not like a Sun. Like a firefly... After all, they knew that the unknown Force was very dangerous and deadly. That's why they took a good look around. Maybe the two Yurides went out together and spied on. And it was imperative for them to return to the tent. The weather was getting colder. The weather, which was -10 degrees in the evening, would become -20 or even colder in the following hours. And the night was very long. The sun rises around 9:20 am. So after warming up a little on the Cedar, the two Yurides couldn't see anything, so they decided to turn around. In any case, the two Yuri and Dubininas did not have their tops. their condition was serious. But halfway back, the unknown Force attacked. And they all died unfortunately. May Allah forgive them all and put them in Paradise. Amine
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Missi on January 28, 2023, 02:57:32 PM
If your unknown force was giving  so much light, that it was possible to see clearly, why wasn't it possible to see said light without climbing a tree?
A light in the dark is visible over great distances. Especially when there's nothing in the way, which there isn't it's a flat area, no trees, no big boulders. And the fact, that it's a slope doesn't change much in that aspect.
It is not possible to see every part of the slope through the forest. And the light of unknown power does not illuminate the surroundings, it only illuminates itself. Not like a Sun. Like a firefly... After all, they knew that the unknown Force was very dangerous and deadly. That's why they took a good look around. Maybe the two Yurides went out together and spied on. And it was imperative for them to return to the tent. The weather was getting colder. The weather, which was -10 degrees in the evening, would become -20 or even colder in the following hours. And the night was very long. The sun rises around 9:20 am. So after warming up a little on the Cedar, the two Yurides couldn't see anything, so they decided to turn around. In any case, the two Yuri and Dubininas did not have their tops. their condition was serious. But halfway back, the unknown Force attacked. And they all died unfortunately. May Allah forgive them all and put them in Paradise. Amine

Okay, I try to break this into parts:

1. "It is not possible to see every part of the slope through the forest. "
Agreed, that's why you postulate, they went to the cedar. Sounds logical to me.

2. "And the light of unknown power does not illuminate the surroundings, it only illuminates itself. Not like a Sun. Like a firefly... "
I'd like to ask, what that might be, but I imagine you're as much at a loss there as I am. Nevertheless it is enough for it to illuminate itself. You can see fireflies from some distance. And I'd say, a force that was able to destroy the bones of people, as you postulate, must be much bigger than a firefly. Therefore it should be visible from further afar than a firefly.

3. "After all, they knew that the unknown Force was very dangerous and deadly. That's why they took a good look around. Maybe the two Yurides went out together and spied on."
Sounds kinda logical, though I disagree with your premises. That's another story, though.

4. "And it was imperative for them to return to the tent. The weather was getting colder. The weather, which was -10 degrees in the evening, would become -20 or even colder in the following hours."
Agreed. The whether analysis suggests temperatures around -30°C. and felt temperatures of around -50°C.

5. "And the night was very long. The sun rises around 9:20 am."
Check.

6. "So after warming up a little on the Cedar, the two Yurides couldn't see anything, so they decided to turn around."
I am not sure, if I understand you correctly there. They turned around? So they went back into the woods to where the others were waiting?

All in all: If one believes in your unknown force, your theory is pretty consistent. So now let's speculate as to what that force could have been. What do you believe killed them?
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 28, 2023, 04:07:20 PM
2. The unknown power is not the size of a firefly....The size of a human...But its light is like it...4. I don't believe it's too cold. If it were, they would all be frozen. But none of them froze, except for two. Both had partial freezing.6. They were all in the Cedar tree anyway....They went to the Cedar to warm up a little and observe the unknown power. Why would they leave? There must be a compelling reason to leave. In all kinds of mass loss events, if there is separation, there must be an important reason for it!!! In dangerous situations, people do not leave each other out of the blue. Even hostile people unite. They were together by the cedar tree. Then they made a plan. They will either stay in the forest and die of the cold. Or they would dare to go back to the tent. They chose to return to the tent. Three people were selected for this. The two Yuri would stay in the tree and near the fire. The other 4 would build a small shelter in the snow nearby. I think 4 people have never dug a cave in the snow. Because they were waiting for the trio who went to the tent. But they scratched the snow a little and made a small place for themselves there. This protected them from the wind.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on January 28, 2023, 05:47:25 PM
OK, now it is time to play with our brains. The Dyatlov group never climbed up the tree, nor made a fire. Someone else did both. The smoke attracts two hikers to see what is going on way down below the tent. They are spied on.The hikers do not return.,Others go looking and they do not return to the tent. Abandoned, the tent gets weather beaten. I don't believe word of this.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 28, 2023, 08:16:31 PM
OK, now it is time to play with our brains. The Dyatlov group never climbed up the tree, nor made a fire. Someone else did both. The smoke attracts two hikers to see what is going on way down below the tent. They are spied on.The hikers do not return.,Others go looking and they do not return to the tent. Abandoned, the tent gets weather beaten. I don't believe word of this.
Your imagination is too advanced....but so wrong....No one cuts a tent and walks a mile barefoot in the cold at night just because the fire is burning. Not even a lunatic would do that. You have to dream more coherently.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on January 28, 2023, 08:38:04 PM
OK, now it is time to play with our brains. The Dyatlov group never climbed up the tree, nor made a fire. Someone else did both. The smoke attracts two hikers to see what is going on way down below the tent. They are spied on.The hikers do not return.,Others go looking and they do not return to the tent. Abandoned, the tent gets weather beaten. I don't believe word of this.
Your imagination is too advanced....but so wrong....No one cuts a tent and walks a mile barefoot in the cold at night just because the fire is burning. Not even a lunatic would do that. You have to dream more coherently.

OK, the ball is in your court, who would cut a perfectly good tent and walk 5,280 feet in the snow without shoes? What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Missi on January 28, 2023, 10:15:33 PM
2. The unknown power is not the size of a firefly....The size of a human...But its light is like it...4. I don't believe it's too cold. If it were, they would all be frozen. But none of them froze, except for two. Both had partial freezing.6. They were all in the Cedar tree anyway....They went to the Cedar to warm up a little and observe the unknown power. Why would they leave? There must be a compelling reason to leave. In all kinds of mass loss events, if there is separation, there must be an important reason for it!!! In dangerous situations, people do not leave each other out of the blue. Even hostile people unite. They were together by the cedar tree. Then they made a plan. They will either stay in the forest and die of the cold. Or they would dare to go back to the tent. They chose to return to the tent. Three people were selected for this. The two Yuri would stay in the tree and near the fire. The other 4 would build a small shelter in the snow nearby. I think 4 people have never dug a cave in the snow. Because they were waiting for the trio who went to the tent. But they scratched the snow a little and made a small place for themselves there. This protected them from the wind.

2. It's a bare slope. From the place by the cedar you would be able to see a firefly the size of a human being!

4. You don't believe? That's what the analysis of the whether that night says. You can't build a theory on "I believe" if there are contradicting facts.
You're selecting evidence according to your theory. If you think, that analysis is wrong, than either provide another analysis stating something else or provide a theory, why it would be warmer.

6. They were in the tree? As in they all climbed the tree? Or did you mean they were by the tree? As in underneath it? Sorry, I usually don't split hairs like this, but in this case, it seems important to me, what you actually mean.
I agree that in situations like this, people don't split up without reason. I understood you were saying the two Juris were send to take a look. To me, that would be a reason. But I think, I misunderstood you and you meant they were together at the cedar and only later did the Juris get their job to observe the slope.

But still: What could that force be? Any suggestions? Without an idea, what might have caused the tragedy in the first place, I'd consider your theory rather invalid.

OK, now it is time to play with our brains. The Dyatlov group never climbed up the tree, nor made a fire. Someone else did both. The smoke attracts two hikers to see what is going on way down below the tent. They are spied on.The hikers do not return.,Others go looking and they do not return to the tent. Abandoned, the tent gets weather beaten. I don't believe word of this.

I like the general idea, but you already posed the most important question: Why wouldn't they take their warm clothes and shoes with them to go look for the reason of the smoke? That doesn't add up.
If you really want to start out there, the only reason I could imagine, would be: They went to look what was there and didn't return, because they were murdered. After killing everyone, the murderers undressed them partly and scattered the corpses. In the end they put stuff back in the tent and cut it.
That leaves questions:
1. Why did they scatter the corpses?
2. Why would they undress them?
3. Why those completely different settings in which the hikers were found?
4. Why leave the tent?
5. Why cut the tent, if the hikers were dead to begin with?
6. What happened to the traces the murderers must have left?

That's all in all completely constructed and illogical. In Germany, we'd call it "Von hinten durch die Brust ins Auge." meaning someone was shot from the back through the chest and finally in his eye. Too complicated, too made up, nothing that'd happen like that.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 29, 2023, 08:01:15 AM
4. Bodies are not frozen....I look at results for evidence...not at analysis....I don't care what the analyzes say when there are bodies that are not frozen.6. Why all out? Two good climbers are enough. In the group, Yuri were the two best to climb the tree. Both of them observed their surroundings closely. They couldn't see anything. But I guess the unknown power was hiding somewhere nearby!!! Nothing could make them separate from each other on their walk up to the cedar. So they came up to the Cedar together. They got a little warm there. Then they parted. If the weather was so cold, they would never leave the fire!!! So the weather was -10 degrees. 2. Not all parts of the slope can be seen from the cedar. It's not possible... Even if it can be seen, why would they observe the slope from the ground when they can climb the tree and look at it from a clearer and wider angle???
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 29, 2023, 08:10:23 AM
It is not possible to know exactly what this power is. But I can say that there is no genie and no devil. Because jinn and demons do not play games with people! They don't plan, they don't cheat. They want to kill them where they find them. There is no animal or natural disaster in the incident... That's for sure. The only answer must be a very advanced human being. Like Superman... Of course, some will find my thinking very utopian. They will say fantasy. But this is the only option left. He can also be a very advanced person. we don't know what human limits can do(?)... What kind of creature would a human be if he used 100% of his brain? Have you ever thought?
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 29, 2023, 08:14:47 AM
Even if you can see the slope from the forest, why not climb the tree to get a clear and wide view? Is it difficult? Climbing a tree is considered an easy task when there is mortal danger.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: ilahiyol on January 29, 2023, 08:21:44 AM
If it had been people attacking them, the group wouldn't have walked just 1 mile. They would walk at least 10 miles or even 20-30 miles and try to lose track of them. And they certainly wouldn't burn it in the fire. If there were people attacking me, I would run away as far as I could. That's what they did. The attackers were definitely not humans or Mansi.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Missi on January 29, 2023, 09:21:22 AM
Okay, I'm out. As long, as you make up facts fitting your theory and dismiss facts because they don't fit, instead of changing your theory, it doesn't make sense arguing with you. Keep on dreaming.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on January 29, 2023, 01:50:07 PM
We must recall that the "window in the tree" is a mental construct. If someone left their glasses or jacket up there, that would be something. There is no advantage to looking for the tent from the tree, just follow the tracks from the tent. If the unknown compelling force was a threat, all nine would be up in the branches using sticks as spears to shoo it away. If they were looking for rescue, set a tree on fire. That gets attention. If they had to be liquidated, they were not made an example of...opportunity lost. If they were defecting, they were in the wrong direction. Just saying...
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Missi on January 29, 2023, 10:08:57 PM
It is not as easy to set a tree on fire as one might think...
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on January 31, 2023, 05:26:41 PM
It is not as easy to set a tree on fire as one might think...
Hmmm  shock1
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Ziljoe on January 31, 2023, 06:01:15 PM
It is not as easy to set a tree on fire as one might think...
Hmmm  shock1

I agree with Missi on this. It's winter. Green wood is different to dry dead wood.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: Missi on January 31, 2023, 10:17:46 PM
It is not as easy to set a tree on fire as one might think...
Hmmm  shock1

Ever seen huge amounts of firewood before houses? And I mean really huge amounts! Those are NOT because people need those amounts instantly, but because wood has to try for... I think about a year. If you own a fireplace in your house and buy wood (not ready made firewood), you learn that. It's common knowledge here, if you own a fireplace.
Title: Re: The "Window" in the cedar tree
Post by: GlennM on February 01, 2023, 08:02:01 AM
I feel like I am getting burned, just now. lol2