Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: sarapuk on December 24, 2021, 06:47:40 PM

Title: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on December 24, 2021, 06:47:40 PM
The autopsies have been refered to many times in this Forum. But what exactly should we have expected from such autopsies. There does appear to be a certain vagueness about the autopsies. On the face of it at first they seem fairly detailed but it soon becomes clear that some things appear to be missing or just not explained properly.
''The question whether an injury was sustained during life or not is one of the most important subjects in forensic medicine''. ''Therefore, vital reactions have been a main research topic in forensic medicine for a long period and many renowned forensic pathologists have devoted important papers to this field''. In the former USSR forensic science was well established. Therefore we should have expected more thorough autopsy reports in the Dyatlov Case. Or are those reports not published, and we are given briefer reports. Just one or two points to start with [1] The inspection of the Brains, vague. [2] The reference to the missing tongue, vague.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on December 24, 2021, 09:20:19 PM
9 мая в СССР - Праздник Победы. Все выпивают и закусывают.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90046
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: marieuk on December 25, 2021, 08:21:03 AM
I realise I'm speaking from a different country and time, but wouldn't you be expected to do your job properly, even if it was a day of celebrations?  I'm hoping that there are more detailed reports hidden away and one day they'll be revealed. 
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on December 26, 2021, 04:57:16 AM
Possibly they weren't that concerned on the details. They had already found the first 5 bodies which were basically frozen and that from their perspective had died from leaving the tent , hypothermia etc.The second group of four were found over 2 months later and had decayed.

How good the communication was between the searchers , investigators and doctors , we will never know. The people doing the autopsy might not have been informed that the ravine four were found under several feet of hard snow, or face down in a stream.

We are looking at this mystery with a different narrative to those at the time. The people doing the autopsy weren't looking for murder, aliens, or wolverines. They probably didn't have any connection with the victims and did autopsies as a day job. Perhaps , from their perspective there was no great mystery. Just a group of people that had died in a very remote area after leaving their tent. Why would they look to complicate things? There's a day off coming up and a celebration , death happens in the cold all the time. I would guess they wanted  to finish the sad business and return the bodies to the families.

I know also that laziness happens in UK and genuine mistakes. Friday afternoons, Monday mornings , incompetent etc.




Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on December 26, 2021, 06:00:33 PM
Possibly they weren't that concerned on the details. They had already found the first 5 bodies which were basically frozen and that from their perspective had died from leaving the tent , hypothermia etc.The second group of four were found over 2 months later and had decayed.

How good the communication was between the searchers , investigators and doctors , we will never know. The people doing the autopsy might not have been informed that the ravine four were found under several feet of hard snow, or face down in a stream.

We are looking at this mystery with a different narrative to those at the time. The people doing the autopsy weren't looking for murder, aliens, or wolverines. They probably didn't have any connection with the victims and did autopsies as a day job. Perhaps , from their perspective there was no great mystery. Just a group of people that had died in a very remote area after leaving their tent. Why would they look to complicate things? There's a day off coming up and a celebration , death happens in the cold all the time. I would guess they wanted  to finish the sad business and return the bodies to the families.

I know also that laziness happens in UK and genuine mistakes. Friday afternoons, Monday mornings , incompetent etc.

It was a criminal case and the forensics would have been told that and therefore they should have acted accordingly.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on December 26, 2021, 06:20:18 PM
Where does it say it was a criminal case?
I don't think it was CSI Miami. Investigation yes.....but we're they looking for murder or just ticking boxes?
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on December 27, 2021, 03:47:35 PM
Where does it say it was a criminal case?
I don't think it was CSI Miami. Investigation yes.....but we're they looking for murder or just ticking boxes?

Look at the Case Files.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on December 27, 2021, 05:38:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%D0%BF%D1%8C%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5+%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B8
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: marieuk on December 27, 2021, 06:23:17 PM
Just wanted to say that what I said before was not meant as any criticism at all and simply that I thought they would be unlikely to not do their job properly because a holiday was coming up.  In other words, maybe there's another reason why all the information is not there.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on December 28, 2021, 03:54:58 AM
Maybe the KGB had guns pointed to their heads when they were doing the autopsy. Saying "write anything down that tells the true story, we will shoot you!".

I thought it was a public inquest where they investigate and try to establish the deaths of the group which would have lead to a criminal case. It started out as a search and rescue but they found the first 5 bodies quickly. Hypothermia was said to be the cause of the deaths. It was mostly students,friends and teachers in the search party ,which would suggest no one was trying to hide anything.

The 4 in the ravine changed things slightly because they couldn't explain the rib and skull fractures. The media has over sensationalised the missing tongue and eyes and fails to mention,eyebrows , lips,skin were missing and they were in a stream under 3-4 meters of "hard compacted" snow.   

I don't know how much time or effort goes into each autopsy, or what they look for. (I do know of a case where things went wrong for good intentioned reasons.
Bodies couldn't be fitted into the body boxes so someone made the bodies fit , where bones were broken. Stressful for all but a mistake. )

All the autopsy could report was broken ribs and bones. They had no idea how it happened or how to explain it other than saying overwhelming force.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on December 28, 2021, 04:33:54 AM
Самая популярная версия в России, что дятловцев убили сотрудники ЦРУ. США должны признать, что ЦРУ - террористическая организация и выплатить репарации. Доказательств не требуется, все и так ясно.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on December 28, 2021, 04:55:17 AM
Igor b, thanks that solves it all, we all knew that anyway! .  grin1

Самая популярная версия в России, что дятловцев убили сотрудники ЦРУ. США должны признать, что ЦРУ - террористическая организация и выплатить репарации. Доказательств не требуется, все и так ясно.
Самая популярная версия в России, что дятловцев убили сотрудники ЦРУ. США должны признать, что ЦРУ - террористическая организация и выплатить репарации. Доказательств не требуется, все и так ясно.

Translated :

The most popular version in Russia is that the Dyatlovites were killed by CIA officers. The US must acknowledge that the CIA is a terrorist organization and pay reparations. No proof is required, everything is clear anyway.


Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on December 28, 2021, 06:04:50 AM
9 мая в СССР - Праздник Победы. Все выпивают и закусывают.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90046

Скетч-шоу из Екатеринбурга "Уральские пельмени" о пьяных врачах в праздник:

https://youtu.be/pwTEfEI8O_g

К сожалению, перевод субтитров ужасен, но можно насладиться мимикой и интонацией.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on December 28, 2021, 02:56:46 PM
I hope that's not all your doctor's ! I could imagine them trying to hurry the job.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Manti on December 28, 2021, 05:46:42 PM
Something that never sat right with me is the mention of sending tissue samples for toxicological analysis. First of all the results are not in the case files. But also, most toxins break down over time, so there is very little hope of finding anything 1 month after death (let alone 3 months after).

Other than that, the autopsies look like a fairly thorough job: they determined time of death relative to their last meal, they determined it wasn't rape, and they tried to determine cause of death... this is not easy in case of hypothermia, made even harder by the long delay in finding the bodies. Even today, in many cases an autopsy will simply state that the cause of death couldn't be determined. If anything, maybe that would have been a more honest thing to put as a conclusion, especially in the case of the Ravine 4.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on December 28, 2021, 06:06:25 PM
Something that never sat right with me is the mention of sending tissue samples for toxicological analysis. First of all the results are not in the case files. But also, most toxins break down over time, so there is very little hope of finding anything 1 month after death (let alone 3 months after).

Other than that, the autopsies look like a fairly thorough job: they determined time of death relative to their last meal, they determined it wasn't rape, and they tried to determine cause of death... this is not easy in case of hypothermia, made even harder by the long delay in finding the bodies. Even today, in many cases an autopsy will simply state that the cause of death couldn't be determined. If anything, maybe that would have been a more honest thing to put as a conclusion, especially in the case of the Ravine 4.

Well the bodies were well preserved because of the freezing conditions, so any tissue samples should have been useful. Also I mention something very important and that is ''Vital Reactions''. Do the Autopsy Reports do justice to the matter of ''Vital Reactions''.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on December 29, 2021, 08:26:27 AM
I completely agree with Manti on this one.I think the freezing of the bodies and the length of time before they were recovered is part of the problem. It complicates the data from any vital reactions. For example, freezing of a body has been found to cause skull fractures(Slobodin?) and slowing down the reaction of bruising/blood flow.

The lack of bruising on the ravine 4 would suggest that they died quickly after the injuries received. The decomposition and location of the ravine 4 adds to a host of variables with anything that could be determined by an autopsy. With modern forensic techniques they may have been able to narrow down some of these variables .

The autopsies were maybe not the best by today's standards and I believe the skills of the people that do this work vary considerably to this day but at what point do you stop looking for cause of death and how much resources/money/time did they have ?. If the government was trying to cover something up it would have been easier to frame the local people or do the autopsy in secret and make up something to keep everyone quiet.

They didn't find anything obvious that supports foul play and couldn't determine if some of the injuries were after death.
It would have been easier if they had found stab wounds , bullet holes , mine shrapnel or defence wounds......but they didn't.



Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on December 29, 2021, 05:44:19 PM
We dont know if we have the full autopsy reports or just edited versions. And could anything be lost or misconstrued in translation. There is certainly room for variables, and of course thats why we are at such a disadvantage with so many years having past since the event. And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on December 29, 2021, 11:08:43 PM
We dont know if we have the full autopsy reports or just edited versions.
После эксгумации Золотарёва знаем - акты вскрытия подлинные. Судмедэксперт Возрожденный не обнаружил у Золотарёва только трещины лопатки, что не удивительно. Он и не мог их обнаружить:
Quote
Вот так определяем, сломаны ли ребра — их просто надо отделить друг от друга и немного пошатать.
https://mr-volkov.livejournal.com/113051.html
(Предупреждение - по ссылке фото вскрытия трупа!)

Сколько лопатку не шатай - трещины не обнаружишь.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Manti on January 02, 2022, 06:27:02 AM
And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on January 02, 2022, 08:13:58 AM
And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers is a compelling case. Lots of similarity to the Dyatlov pass, deaths of others after the event, photos/ manipulation, poor investigation and bad media hype for clicks. I believe they recovered parts of the bodies.

I'm cautious of mentioning this case because it's recent and out of respect to families.

Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: RMK on January 02, 2022, 08:35:37 AM
And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers is a compelling case. Lots of similarity to the Dyatlov pass, deaths of others after the event, photos/ manipulation, poor investigation and bad media hype for clicks. I believe they recovered parts of the bodies.

I'm cautious of mentioning this case because it's recent and out of respect to families.
Yeah, they definitely found partial skeletal remains of Froon and Kremers.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Manti on January 06, 2022, 08:47:01 PM
And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers is a compelling case. Lots of similarity to the Dyatlov pass, deaths of others after the event, photos/ manipulation, poor investigation and bad media hype for clicks. I believe they recovered parts of the bodies.

I'm cautious of mentioning this case because it's recent and out of respect to families.
Yeah, they definitely found partial skeletal remains of Froon and Kremers.
Yes. My point was intended to be that even today, even with intense media attention and completely free access to the area of disappearance, it takes a long time sometimes to find those missing. So I think the Ravine 4 being found only after 4 months is not suspicious or doesn't point to anything sinister.


Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on January 09, 2022, 05:24:15 PM
And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.

Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Yes hundreds of people go missing each year in strange circumstances. Check out ''David Paulides''  and Missing 411,  if you havnt already done so.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 11, 2022, 08:57:41 AM
Broken teeth and numerous abrasions on the hands and fingers of every hiker found under the tree are defense wounds.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: marieuk on January 12, 2022, 05:49:50 PM
And it took so long to find those 4 bodies at the ravine. Imagine if the event had happened this year, what a different outcome there would probably be.
The incident of hiker Esther Dingley in the Pyrenees happened last year. It took 7 months to find her. Although the autopsy was conclusive even after such a long time..


Brian Laundrie was found after 5 weeks.


Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers have never been found.These are just some examples of people who have disappeared in the wilderness.


Yes hundreds of people go missing each year in strange circumstances. Check out ''David Paulides''  and Missing 411,  if you havnt already done so.

Thanks DB.  I saw half of 'The Hunted' one the other day.  Unfortunately, missed the beginning.  I was really interested to hear he has a profile.  I'm trying to remember what was on the list, but can only remember some of them.   I'm sure you know more about this than I do.

- location - seemed to be remote places
- if found they often had shoe(s) and clothes missing
- extreme weather either just before or after disappearance
- missing person was on their own when they disappeared
- often found near bodies of water e.g. streams, rivers, lakes etc
- time of disappearance - usually afternoon/early evening

It made me think how it compares to this case.  What if they had walked down to the woods in the afternoon to do whatever things you do when you're camping.  So no rush or panic involved. One of them wanders off alone and it begins.  They scream and the others hear and go to help.  I still find it hard to believe they pitched the tent on the ridge to be honest, and even more so after seeing Teddy's video.

So back to the broken teeth.  I'm sure I read Igor had a missing incisor.  Who else had broken teeth?


Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 13, 2022, 07:53:38 AM
I also saw the Hunted, an amazing doc, but isn't that the one where they eventually suggest that Bigfoot is a highly likely candidate for the disappearances?
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: marieuk on January 13, 2022, 04:14:49 PM
I'm not sure I didn't see the whole thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was true. 
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on January 14, 2022, 05:54:38 PM
Broken teeth and numerous abrasions on the hands and fingers of every hiker found under the tree are defense wounds.

Yes, there is evidence to suggest that some of the injuries may have been caused by people acting in self defence. But what where those people defending themselves from.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on January 14, 2022, 05:59:39 PM
I also saw the Hunted, an amazing doc, but isn't that the one where they eventually suggest that Bigfoot is a highly likely candidate for the disappearances?

The Bigfoot mystery is very popular in the USA as some of our American friends know only to well. And according to all the stories that come out of the USA in particular, concerning the Bigfoot creatures, other things are also reported. Orbs of light and UFO's are often reported at the same time as a Bigfoot sighting.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 17, 2022, 10:47:38 AM
Bigfoot theories are huge in USA. The Russian Yeti is even more interesting to us! A lot of docs about Bigfoot do talk about other strange events that accompany sightings and have theorized that Bigfoot/aliens are related. We are very big on Middle Earth theories and alien conspiracies etc.  embarrassed1
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on January 31, 2022, 07:47:58 AM
What is missing at autopsy is telling. No residue from collision with a tree branch, no bullet from a gun, no foam, no poison in the system, no ligature marks,  no beatings on the back. Everything can be explained be natural causes. Even the radiation was far less than lethal and readily explained.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on January 31, 2022, 03:29:05 PM
What is missing at autopsy is telling. No residue from collision with a tree branch, no bullet from a gun, no foam, no poison in the system, no ligature marks,  no beatings on the back. Everything can be explained be natural causes. Even the radiation was far less than lethal and readily explained.

Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina. When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy. Those geiger counters they used were not the sensitive ones often used these days. They were the military type designed to detect radiation fallout after a nuclear explosion.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 31, 2022, 06:37:11 PM
Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.
Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.
Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on January 31, 2022, 08:52:35 PM
I am leery of getting the story conflated in the retelling. There are certain injuries that are unique enough to be easily called out. As an example, in the days before collapsible steering wheels and seat belts, fractured rib cages of steering columns through the chest were easily identifiable. Gunshot residue is another. The coroner's report does not conclude that an injury was a falling branch fracture or anything specific. I think the comments on this thread are very good and thoughtful. The upshot was that the presumption was death by freezing, death from trauma  from a fall and deterioration of the body from exposure to scavengers and natural decomposition. The how of their deaths gets us no closer to the why of their deaths. Natural causes do not need a why, people do. Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 01, 2022, 06:03:14 PM
Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.
Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.
Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621


You post an article that shows a body that has presumably been submerged in the water a long time and in a mild conditions. That is not the case with Dubinina. Also you post an article about radiation but it doesnt mention that the searchers used geiger counters of a military type and that they went off the scale at the scene of the Dyatlov incident.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 01, 2022, 06:10:34 PM
I am leery of getting the story conflated in the retelling. There are certain injuries that are unique enough to be easily called out. As an example, in the days before collapsible steering wheels and seat belts, fractured rib cages of steering columns through the chest were easily identifiable. Gunshot residue is another. The coroner's report does not conclude that an injury was a falling branch fracture or anything specific. I think the comments on this thread are very good and thoughtful. The upshot was that the presumption was death by freezing, death from trauma  from a fall and deterioration of the body from exposure to scavengers and natural decomposition. The how of their deaths gets us no closer to the why of their deaths. Natural causes do not need a why, people do. Thoughts?

Well I think most investigators will agree that the autopsies leave a lot to be desired. Yes death by freezing and certain injuries appears most obvious. But the autopsies leave us wanting. Wanting to know more. Just like so many aspects in this Dyatlov case we are missing important information / evidence.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on February 01, 2022, 09:01:36 PM
Sarapuk another good analysis, If the autopsies were wanting, it could mean several things. Perhaps the most obvious conclusion is that from a forensic point of view, there was nothing remarkable about the findings. Put in other terms, the autopsies did not trigger police action. If the autopsies were part of a conspiracy, then do we follow the money. Where does it lead? If the autopsies are wanting by today's standards, then it is lost to time. The real value of asking these questions that "how" questions lead to more results than "why" questions.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on February 02, 2022, 11:33:26 AM
Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.
Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.
Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621


You post an article that shows a body that has presumably been submerged in the water a long time and in a mild conditions. That is not the case with Dubinina. Also you post an article about radiation but it doesnt mention that the searchers used geiger counters of a military type and that they went off the scale at the scene of the Dyatlov incident.

Parts of the bodies were under water. It does state this . Dubinina had a lot of decomposition . This can be seen from the autopsy photos.

I think Igor b argument is,  if there was lots of radiation , the clothes and belongings would have not have been returned to the families.

I could be wrong.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Manti on February 03, 2022, 11:03:18 AM
I have seen no record saying that geiger counters were used in the search let alone that they went off the scale.

The actual radiation found on the clothes is minor and not a harmful amount. I have my own theory about how it got there... it's irrelevant to the case though.

In case anyone else is an xkcd fan, here's a recent one that seems relevant to the thread: https://xkcd.com/2573/ (https://xkcd.com/2573/)

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/alien_mission_2x.png)
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on February 03, 2022, 03:23:47 PM
Manti, do you recall that the Barney/Betty Hill UFO abduction story occurred a couple of years after the hikers died? The Hill couple were both deluded and profit minded. It is a sign of the cultural times that conspiracy, radiation, nuclear energy, rockets, lights in the sky and government cover up are part of the 1959 post mortem hoopla.  A mundane explanation for an extraordinary lapse of group wisdom is the likely answer in my opinion. The group did all the right things, by the book for the right reasons, but Nature threw them a curve ball of shaky ground, crazy cold, wind and cold food.  As the saying goes, they could run, but they couldn't hide from Nature.Comments?
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 05, 2022, 04:26:45 PM
Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.
Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.
Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621


You post an article that shows a body that has presumably been submerged in the water a long time and in a mild conditions. That is not the case with Dubinina. Also you post an article about radiation but it doesnt mention that the searchers used geiger counters of a military type and that they went off the scale at the scene of the Dyatlov incident.

Parts of the bodies were under water. It does state this . Dubinina had a lot of decomposition . This can be seen from the autopsy photos.

I think Igor b argument is,  if there was lots of radiation , the clothes and belongings would have not have been returned to the families.

I could be wrong.

It was too cold for decomposition of the type that is often seen on bodies in water in milder conditions. What type of radiation are we dealing with.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 05, 2022, 04:28:56 PM
I have seen no record saying that geiger counters were used in the search let alone that they went off the scale.

The actual radiation found on the clothes is minor and not a harmful amount. I have my own theory about how it got there... it's irrelevant to the case though.

In case anyone else is an xkcd fan, here's a recent one that seems relevant to the thread: https://xkcd.com/2573/ (https://xkcd.com/2573/)

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/alien_mission_2x.png)

Well you need to read all thats on the website Dyatlovpass.com
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 05, 2022, 04:31:46 PM
Manti, do you recall that the Barney/Betty Hill UFO abduction story occurred a couple of years after the hikers died? The Hill couple were both deluded and profit minded. It is a sign of the cultural times that conspiracy, radiation, nuclear energy, rockets, lights in the sky and government cover up are part of the 1959 post mortem hoopla.  A mundane explanation for an extraordinary lapse of group wisdom is the likely answer in my opinion. The group did all the right things, by the book for the right reasons, but Nature threw them a curve ball of shaky ground, crazy cold, wind and cold food.  As the saying goes, they could run, but they couldn't hide from Nature.Comments?

Comments ? Yes. Lights in the sky were observed in the area in question. They have been observed many times in that area. Radiation was detected in the area of the incident.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Игорь Б. on February 05, 2022, 05:26:57 PM
It was too cold for decomposition of the type that is often seen on bodies in water in milder conditions.
Пресная вода всегда имеет плюсовую температуру. При плюсовой температуре мясо портится.

Radiation was detected in the area of the incident.
На месте происшествия не было никакой радиации, кроме солнечной.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on February 05, 2022, 08:56:57 PM
Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 13, 2022, 02:23:16 PM
It was too cold for decomposition of the type that is often seen on bodies in water in milder conditions.
Пресная вода всегда имеет плюсовую температуру. При плюсовой температуре мясо портится.

Radiation was detected in the area of the incident.
На месте происшествия не было никакой радиации, кроме солнечной.

Doesnt answer anything. Just speculations.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 13, 2022, 02:27:57 PM
Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

Comments. Yes. The Autopsies left a lot to be desired. There appears to be missing information. Radiation may not have been lethal but something caused the Geiger Counters to go off the scale.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on February 13, 2022, 03:45:12 PM
Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

Comments. Yes. The Autopsies left a lot to be desired. There appears to be missing information. Radiation may not have been lethal but something caused the Geiger Counters to go off the scale.

Where did the Geiger counter go off the scale? I can't find this information. If you can point me in the direction where it says that I'd appreciate it sarapuk. I did hear something like that when I was first introduced to the DP mystery but I can't find anything official.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on February 13, 2022, 04:22:04 PM
I recommend the readers search out "blast lung" and blast injuries. See if it related well to injured hikers. Also, determine if a blast injury does or does not bruise the skin.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on February 13, 2022, 04:35:23 PM
Think it's been looked at in detail in older threads glennm
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on February 13, 2022, 04:46:16 PM
Ziljoe, thanks. The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on February 13, 2022, 05:01:16 PM
Ziljoe, thanks. The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

I'm split between two houses, that's Teddy's new approach by documents and Igor b's . What's interesting about Igor B's explanation is the details of where the bodies were found and the condition , injuries etc. In fact you could take Igor's explanation and swap the trigger for the evacuation of the tent and it still covers the injuries. He explains with much better forensic detail if that's the right phrase.

The lack of detail in the case files could come from the fact no one really cared to look at as a murder or strange event. Students are found frozen on a long hike , it happens.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Manti on February 14, 2022, 05:49:35 PM
I think Igor B's theory would benefit from an English translation and all of these explanations being collected in one place. As far as I know it's currently over on an other forum spanning thousands of posts.

I have read several pages but never found the part that explains the injuries... also there are 7000 posts(?) in that thread and some are Russian memes, etc. Very hard to untangle.

The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

To me, Occam's razor says that it can't be a fall. People who fall end up landing on one of their extremities, and break their legs, arms, head. It's very hard to fall on your chest (and not break your head). The probability of this happening to two people.. practically zero. Something falling on them however, much better explanation.

That said I'm not necessarily in favor of the tree fall theory, because who lifted the tree then? It also doesn't explain why those who weren't injured by the tree all died. Maybe I'm thinking about this incident in an different way than others... but the very fact that they all died, in proximity, and at around the same time, is a very unusual circumstance. Cold affects people differently, depending on amount of body fat (varies by gender), how they are dressed, etc. Occam's razor says some of them should have survived or at least survived for much longer than others, and it was cold, the instinctive thing to do is to keep moving. Some should have been found miles and miles away. In the Auspiya valley looking for the labaz, or looking for the Mansi hut they passed. Or even further.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: Ziljoe on February 14, 2022, 06:07:44 PM
I think Igor B's theory would benefit from an English translation and all of these explanations being collected in one place. As far as I know it's currently over on an other forum spanning thousands of posts.

I have read several pages but never found the part that explains the injuries... also there are 7000 posts(?) in that thread and some are Russian memes, etc. Very hard to untangle.

The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

To me, Occam's razor says that it can't be a fall. People who fall end up landing on one of their extremities, and break their legs, arms, head. It's very hard to fall on your chest (and not break your head). The probability of this happening to two people.. practically zero. Something falling on them however, much better explanation.

That said I'm not necessarily in favor of the tree fall theory, because who lifted the tree then? It also doesn't explain why those who weren't injured by the tree all died. Maybe I'm thinking about this incident in an different way than others... but the very fact that they all died, in proximity, and at around the same time, is a very unusual circumstance. Cold affects people differently, depending on amount of body fat (varies by gender), how they are dressed, etc. Occam's razor says some of them should have survived or at least survived for much longer than others, and it was cold, the instinctive thing to do is to keep moving. Some should have been found miles and miles away. In the Auspiya valley looking for the labaz, or looking for the Mansi hut they passed. Or even further.


I agree with you Manti. Igor b's theory could do with being translated. I don't have a problem with translating from my phone to numerous sites, don't know why it an issue for others. I look at any site and it automatically changes it to English.

Anyway , I do think the detail in Igor b's is important. Especially the nature of how all the bodies were found and the injuries.

I believe he's ok with me translating his evidence but there is a lot. I respect his work and approach as I do teddy's. For me , they are the two most interesting and plausible explanations . For anyone that reads this post I would strongly recommend that they look into both.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 16, 2022, 05:59:01 PM
Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

Comments. Yes. The Autopsies left a lot to be desired. There appears to be missing information. Radiation may not have been lethal but something caused the Geiger Counters to go off the scale.

Where did the Geiger counter go off the scale? I can't find this information. If you can point me in the direction where it says that I'd appreciate it sarapuk. I did hear something like that when I was first introduced to the DP mystery but I can't find anything official.

You need to read all the case files etc. This as been mentioned before but I cant remember where in the Forum.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 16, 2022, 06:00:25 PM
I recommend the readers search out "blast lung" and blast injuries. See if it related well to injured hikers. Also, determine if a blast injury does or does not bruise the skin.

Its been dealt with before in this Forum.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: GlennM on February 16, 2022, 08:20:50 PM
And not resolved, I think.
Title: Re: The Autopsies
Post by: sarapuk on February 18, 2022, 04:20:28 PM
And not resolved, I think.

What is resolved. The mystery continues. We lack evidence.