Theories Discussion > Murdered
A problem with homicide theories
Ziljoe:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on May 29, 2022, 03:31:34 PM --- Conventional vocabulary used : "ravine's Four" - Den - Ravine
••• The "ravine's Four" = Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov.
••• The Den = the location where the 4 beds of brushwood cut on May 4 or 5, 1959 were found.l'endroit où ont été trouvé les 4 lits de branchage les 4 ou 5 mai 1959.
••• The Ravine = the location where the 4 corpses of the "ravine's Four" were found on May 5, 1959.
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7 meters is the distance Den <--> Ravine following Vassilii Zyadik
Do you agree with Vassilii Zyadik's synthetic image reconstruction ? It could be correct.
If you agree then the Den is located 7 meters upstream from the Ravine .I'm not sure of the relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------(In the following I will refer to this location found on May 4 or 5 as: the Den-Ravine.)
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less snow on February 2 than on May 5
--- Quote from: Manti on May 23, 2022, 09:08:21 AM --- Reply #82
............ there was less snow when they started sheltering there, and snow cover significantly increased after the incident,[February 2]....
--- End quote ---
It is impossible to know exactly how deep the snow was at the Ravine on February 2, 1959, i.e. 3 months before the discovery of Dubinina's corpse on May 5 by Askenadzi (« I...saw a piece of meat on the hook...»).
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
But we can nevertheless be sure that there was less snow on February 2 than on May 5 !
How can you be sure? Less snow where? May was the time of thawing ,so I would argue on the whole, there would be less snow in May than February? Would there be more snow in June than may? The snow depth will change with the wind on exposed areas. Given the fact that the searchers found raised footprints , suggesting wind/ snow errosion or drifting but the 3 bodies on the slope were found under different levels of snow suggests the level changes quickly on exposed areas.The ravine area would just fill up with snow to the levels of the surrounding terrain. That might have happened in November the previous year? ( I don't know exactly when the snow starts to fall n the area but I'm guessing it started long before January).
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The natural and progressive evolution of powder snow into hard and compact snow
--- Quote from: Ziljoe on May 23, 2022, 03:16:15 PM --- Reply #83
..... Especially if it has been hardened by compression. Again think of the snow after sliding off a roof of a house , it's stays hard on the ground. Similar to the snow left by snow ploughs at the side of the road.
--- End quote ---
Yes. It is also necessary to take into account the alternation of freezing and thawing...
The natural evolution of freshly fallen powdery snow to progressively turn into hard, compact snow and then slowly into real ice is well known........
I'll disagree here. Not all fresh snow is powdery. It can be wet and of many different consistencies. The compression concept is with regards to friction and heat. Snow in an avalanche changes and goes hard. Less air and friction ? Like wise depending on the temperature, ( think snowballs) you can get snowballs that you can make into a lump of ice that hurt when one receives it or snow that just won't stick or compress and falls apart? So think of a mass of 2 meters of snow above falling a meter?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Névé is a young, granular type of snow which has been partially melted, refrozen and compacted, yet precedes the form of ice. This type of snow is associated with glacier formation through the process of nivation.[1] Névé that survives a full season of ablation turns into firn, which is both older and slightly denser. Firn eventually becomes glacial ice – the long-lived, compacted ice that glaciers are composed of.[2] Glacier formation can take days to years depending on freeze-thaw factors.........
Névé has a minimum density of 500 kg/m3...
So no need to invoke sloped house roofs or snow ploughs on at the side on roads that were not in the area around the cedar.
It's an example of what happens to snow when it compresses, gravity or being forced together.
Think of the consistency of snow that drops that is maybe slightly wet. It compresses , goes hard as the air has gone. ( Snowballs again) . Then logically follow on to broken ribs, bodies under hard snow, chest cavity is the most vulnerable. Then look at the report of the ravine 4 having to be dug out of hard snow. As for eyes etc , look at the report of the decaying bodies , in may, in running water. Then explain why there was more snow in May than in February?( That doesn't make sense) The photos show there was exposed grass land in May? Plus I think ,if I remember correctly it was the searchers that found the pathway, rags of clothes etc after thawing( less snow) that led them to look in the "den/ravine" area?
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Some deceptive photos that are misleading
The location of the Ravine (= the location of the corpses of the "ravine's Four" remained totally unknown until May 4 or 5, 1959.
(what is certain is that the Den was found before the Ravine).
According to Askenadzi :
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
• On the discovery of the Den :
...These branches, as it were, indicated the path from the chopped fir-trees to the ravine [in fact it was the Den]. It turned out that the hikers cut off the branches and dragged them into the ravine [the Den], losing some debris of the branches along the way. Where the path ended, there we started digging. The snow was wet, caked. We cut down blocks and took them out. That’s how we found the den. With trembling hands - thinking that we will now find the guys - we scooped up the snow. When we saw an empty den, it became very painful. Where are they? ......
• On the discovery of the Ravine :
...We had professional emergency avalanche probes designed to search for bodies. There is a hook at the end. It is necessary to poke, turn and pull it back. Mostly we pulled moss with the hook. And then I took out the probe and saw a piece of meat on the hook ....
Mihail Sharavin as well as Vladimir Borzenkov have failed to identify the location of the area "Den-Ravine".
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy?flp=1#ravine
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-borzenkov
This explains why there are still photos that evoke some kind of ice cliff which are therefore misleading because they have nothing to do with the DPI.
Photo is not working for me, as I can't see this one.
Forget these misleading photos
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The correct location of the Den-Ravine recovered after 1959
According to what I could read (or understand) on the present website of [/b]Teddy[/b], it is Shura Alekseenkov and Sasha KAN who have finally really located the Den-Ravine in 2011 and 2016.
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine
Schematic plan of the area
Photos of the Den in the background and the Ravine in the foreground (but only) during summer 2016 from shura and Sacha.
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Here are a few troublesome questions about the collapse theory
--- Quote from: Ziljoe on May 23, 2022, 03:16:15 PM --- Reply #83
...............................
Depending on how the snow and wind fell
at the ravine, I believe that the snow could easily make a snow bridge . It happens in nature , the stream could still run free underneath any snow.
...............................................
--- End quote ---
I did not understand exactly the scenario that you ( Ziljoe ) are defending.
https://www.mountaineers.org/blog/unseen-danger-navigating-snow-bridge-hazards
Snow bridges exist.
It seems to me that you are inspired by the wolverine theory that Igor B exposes in the 112 pages of discussion on the website
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
I'm inspired by Igor b's logic but I read everything also. I'm happy for all things to be questioned. Igor b argues a strong case.
There are today, May 29, 2022, 2231 posts unfortunately in Russian.
My software instantly translates any language, never been a problem.
But thankfully Ziljoe offered us a quick summary.
Ziljoe : Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> They were NOT crushed by snow March 25, 2021, 10:24:15 PM - Reply #41
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=858.msg14426#msg14426
« From what I can astatine and in a very basic explanation , the ravine 4 were possibly the first to die. The area is very different today than how it was 60 years ago with vegetation. The nature of the wind would blow the snow over the ravine. (Igor shows an example photo) . It is possible that there was a natural snow cave over the ravine. It is suggested that the may have dug out some more snow and made the roof of the cave too flat which makes it more likely to collapse. The reason they are found the way they were is because they were sheltering themselves and using the coats to cover each other, or sharing them. It doesn't mean they were lying in the stream and there may have been some migration of the bodies when the thawing started.
If there was a couple of meters of snow above them and it collapsed , it could explain the broken ribs and maybe the eyes being forced out as Dona has suggested. Igor B explains a lot of this and why there are less damage to their hands and why only one side of the ribs are broken. Igor B explains the nature of the snow in a collapse and how it becomes harder and more compact.
It was identified at the time of digging them out that the snow was hard».
Please note that the judgement of Askenadzi is interesting here:
«I do not think they could have dug a hole and a cave with their bare hands. They may have trampled a small pit for the den, and after that it snowed on top. The depth is about right...».
I'm suggesting they found a hole/cavity.
•••
In a nutshell, the theory of Igor B explains well the exit from the tent but does not convince me on the issue of the causes of the injuries of the 9 hikers commented by Tumanov.
Igor b explains a lot of the injuries and why. Certainly more than a sharpened spoon to remove eyes....
•••
- How to explain the natural formation, on February 1, of a cave or an arch (snow bridge) large enough to hold 4 people ?
In my opinion, the water that could, perhaps, flow under the snow, on February 1, would produce a quite insufficient space.
See the link to snow bridges above.
There would be at most 1 cm between the ceiling of hardened snow (almost ice) and the water (at the temperature of melting ice i.e. 0° C) that would flow underneath.
•••
About the hypothetical voluntary displacement of 7 meters of the "ravine's Four" which leave the Den to go and settle at the Ravine.
- Who built the Den's four branch beds? Was it not the "ravine's Four" on the initiative of Zolotaryov ?
- Why build these 4 beds of branches, which certainly required time and effort since the "ravine's Four" had no tools and only one pair of gloves ?
The could of used their feet. All 9 of them could have helped. It might have been 6 of them , who knows.
- Why would they want to leave the 4 beds of branches ?
They found the snow hole/cave?
- How, probably in complete darkness, did they hope to find a better protected place ?
Was it dark?
- Why would the "ravine's Four" have chosen this particularly unsuitable place since there was a waterfall of 70 centimeters high ?
Was it a waterfall at the time? It was thawing when the bodies were found.
- Why was Dubinina found, on May 5, in a position in the direction of the current, thus perpendicular to the three others that were across ?
Moved by the water perhaps , or entering the snow cave when it collapsed.
- Why, after having chosen to settle in this hypothetical cellar that they considered safer, did the ceiling suddenly collapse on them ?
Perhaps by trying to make it bigger. They kicked or scrapped away too much of the natural architecture of the strength of the arch. The arch reached a tipping point and collapsed. ( I have personal experience of this happing, no fatalities thankfully. But this has been reported on , especially kids making snow dens.)
- ...etc.
(On the contrary with my criminal theory TOKEB (Tumanov + Oestmoen + Kandr + EBE + BottledBrunette) all these questions, and others, disappear since they are not even posed ! ).
Practical warning: as my Reply #84 is too long, I will add later some instructive pictures for the aspect of the Den-Ravine which are provided by Igor B on the website : http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
--- End quote ---
Ziljoe:
Sorry, Jean Daniel Reuss,
I've tried but I'm useless at this editing stuff. My pc is broken and I've not quite learned how to edit on my phone. However , I've put in some replies.
Игорь Б.:
Место настила определено сопоставлением фотографий и находится более чем 11 метрами выше по течению от тела Дубининой:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=62882
Это место настила подтверждается свидетельством поисковика Мохова:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=109721
Все остальные неправильно определяют место настила.
Прокурор Темпалов в том числе:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=72662
Игорь Б.:
Таким образом, оба снежных укрытия располагались над уступами, а не под ними. Это не случайно.
Только так можно было копать снег без лопат. Не имея возможности выбрасывать снег наверх они сталкивали снег ногами вниз с уступов:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=62991
Игорь Б.:
Как можно выкопать снежное укрытие без инструментов:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=73389
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=88853
Именно поэтому перчатки у Тибо были не на руках, а в кармане куртки:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=99479
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