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Author Topic: The Eleventh line  (Read 3703 times)

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June 27, 2022, 05:34:31 AM
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Charles

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Charles replaced the contents of his posts with "nothing here" and deleted his account in the forum. I am trying to clean his mess.
You can read an archived copy of his post from August 15, 2022 when it was still called "The murder of Serguey Kolevatov in Tavda and its collateral damages".
Shortly before leaving the forum Charles sent me the following summary of his theory:
"At the origin of my theory there is the organization of profit in the camps (after Frenkel), NKVD executives embezzling these profits, the involvement of Sergey Kolevatov as a financial director, and so on. Some historians say that the embezzlement sucked all the money possible, sinking the profitability of the whole Gulag to zero. Now, I am asking myself how much money the embezzlement could represent and what happened to all that money the NKVD could not spend... The possible answers could explain Ivanov's brutal statement of 1990 and the failure of new investigation in 2019. What happened in 1959 can't be said 70 years after, it survives the human actors... It is worst than the crimes of 1937-1938 and last longer than a human life. The same as "blood diamonds" but in a scale beyond imagination."

Charles tag line was then "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Reality check:  "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you delete your posts!"
« Last Edit: January 01, 2023, 05:48:20 AM by Teddy »
 
The following users thanked this post: melissa whisler, Manti

August 22, 2022, 03:33:13 PM
Reply #1
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Jean Daniel Reuss



While I do not agree with all the points made above, in the main post

Charles  :  The murder of Serguey Kolevatov in Tavda and its collateral damages   --->  June 27, 2022, 02:34:31 PM

nor with the additional details in Reply #1(June 28), Reply #2(July 01), Reply #3(August 22),

 the designation of Ivan Stepanovich PRODANOV (a regional notable who belonged to the NKVD) as the main possible culprit of the massacre of the 9 kikers, may fit with my TOK theory, which is directly derived from Aleks Kandr :

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova

However, I read (https://dyatlovpass.com/whois): PRODANOV died in 1964, was buried in Ivdel. Wife - Mariya Ermolaevna Prodanova. The Prodanovs had 8 children. As of 2015 - two daughters are alive:   Alevtina Ivanovna Laskina (lives in Ivdel) and Olga Ivanovna Melakhina (Ostrogozhsk, Voronezh region).

If I were to name Ivan Stepanovich PRODANOV as a possible commander (or perhaps even as the number 1 suspect) of the sending of 3 experienced contract killers on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, with the mission to crush the 9 hikers (remaining after the return of Yuri Yudin) with the additional imperative of leaving no survivors, then I would be going out of the framework of the History of the USSR, to enter into slander aimed more or less directly at living persons.

It is necessary to expose this problem to the persons in charge of this website:

Teddy : Administrator
Loose}{Cannon : Global Moderator
sarapuk : Case-Files Achievement Recipient

and await their instructions.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

September 13, 2022, 11:43:53 AM
Reply #2
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Jean Daniel Reuss


                    Reply #5   
The comment "Jean Daniel Reuss" made above is inappropriate: there is no impossibility whatsoever to discuss the involvement of Ivan Prodanov in the tragedy on this forum.
His attempt to silence the present theory using unscrupulous means could be imputed to envy but it has no ground. The discussion is open and "Jean Daniel Reus"s can't do anything about it.

I did not understand this Reply #5 of Charles at all. My Reply #4 is not an " attempt to silence the present theory" but rather a question of politeness (courtesy) towards Alevtina Ivanovna Laskina and Olga Ivanovna Melakhina.

My Reply #4 is certainly not perfect, but I find it clear enough to be understood by all.

So I am recopying it here in its entirety while inviting Charles to read it again calmly.

 The designation of Ivan Stepanovich PRODANOV (a regional notable who belonged to the NKVD) as the main possible culprit of the massacre of the 9 kikers, may fit with my TOK theory, which is directly derived from Aleks Kandr :

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova

However, I read (https://dyatlovpass.com/whois): PRODANOV died in 1964, was buried in Ivdel. Wife - Mariya Ermolaevna Prodanova. The Prodanovs had 8 children. As of 2015 - two daughters are alive:   Alevtina Ivanovna Laskina (lives in Ivdel) and Olga Ivanovna Melakhina (Ostrogozhsk, Voronezh region).

If I were to name Ivan Stepanovich PRODANOV as a possible commander (or perhaps even as the number 1 suspect) of the sending of 3 experienced contract killers on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, with the mission to crush the 9 hikers (remaining after the return of Yuri Yudin) with the additional imperative of leaving no survivors, then I would be going out of the framework of the History of the USSR, to enter into slander aimed more or less directly at living persons.

It is necessary to expose this problem to the wise persons in charge of this website,
mainly:

Teddy : Administrator
Loose}{Cannon : Global Moderator
sarapuk : Case-Files Achievement Recipient

and await their instructions.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

September 14, 2022, 03:26:05 PM
Reply #3
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


                    Reply #7   
....................................
I wrote to Reuss a kind personal message..................
......................................
Ah! .....personal message.............

 1) - First of all, I only became aware of your 2 messages of August 23 and 27 in  "My messages" , today, September 14, because I have the bad habit of looking first at :
"View the most recent posts on the forum."
 
 2) - On "My messages" I read the subject you have chosen:
Vos deux messages incriminant ma contribution
Your two messages incriminating my contribution

I am not incriminating your contribution. On the contrary I find it good and I incorporate it partially in my TOK theory, just as I used the ideas of Tumanov, Per Inge Oestmoen and Kandr (and others).

3) - I am beginning to glimpse what irritates you.

In Reply #1(biography) Reply #4, Reply #6. I therefore delete (or will delete) the final sentence:

It is necessary to expose this problem to the persons in charge of this website:

To replace it with the following paragraph:

••• Personally, I, Jean Daniel Reuss, (promoter for the moment, of the so-called TOK theory) will not send any more posts implying the probable or even possible guilt of Ivan Stepanovich PRODANOV (1906-1964) for the murder of the 9 hikers, before having received a favourable opinion from one of the founders of the forum (Teddy, Loose}{Cannon, sarapuk....)

Indeed, to write on the Internet serious accusations against Ivan Stepanovich PRODANOV, seems to me, but perhaps wrongly, a delicate subject because 2 of his daughters are still alive (Alevtina Ivanovna Laskina (lives in Ivdel) and Olga Ivanovna Melakhina (Ostrogozhsk, Voronezh region).

Of course, it goes without saying that all other members of the forum and especially Charles, are free to act and write as they wish.

 4) - I can wait a long time before coming back to Prodanov or other NKVD veterans, since I am currently engaged in combating Per Inge Oestmoen's, in my opinion, false idea that :

The KGB was indeed given the order to kill the nine students... it was because the students witnessed something they were not supposed to know about. Granted that this was the situation, what the students observed was of such a nature that it would be a threat to state security and possibly international relations if one of the students might later tell anyone what they had observed. Thus, the very observation by the students was the dangerous factor.The students had observed what they should not have observed..........

In my opinion, on the contrary, there was nothing important to observe between 23 January and 2 February 1959.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

September 15, 2022, 10:55:49 AM
Reply #4
Offline

neni_cesty_zpet


Seen what that would justify mass murder?
Do you have some kind of soviet 'Wunderwaffen' on your mind?

Doing such mess on crime scene, risking outside witnesses like Mansi people etc. ?

This sounds really crazy to me, hard to buy your theory for me  nea1
 

September 16, 2022, 03:25:02 PM
Reply #5
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss



                    Reply #9
Reuss you pretend to give lessons of morals and "politeness", but you didn’t have the courtesy to send me a personal message before to post your Reply #4, courtesy which would have given you the ability to learn that this reply of you was off topic and useless....

I have never claimed to be a model of courtesy here (My area of expertise is limited to some basic Physics).

By the way, the proof of my rudeness (impoliteness) is that I didn't even realise that I shouldn't have sent my Reply #4, #6 and #8 posts.
                    Reply #9
.......... You know since August 23 when I informed you by personal message, and since September 13 by my public Reply #5  that your Reply #4 was off topic...........

I can only say again that I do not usually look in :
"View the most recent posts on the forum."
 and not in :
"My Messages - Read your message"

Charles ---> The Den and the fire at the Cedar were made by the attackers, not by the hikers

This is also the opinion of EBE who wrote :
EBE  : Murdere/Re: Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events -->    December 16, 2021, 12:05:16 PM  --> Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16775#msg16775

...I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides....


Charles ---> ]"The most fatal aspect for the young hikers was to threaten the activities of senior officers, not very high ranking KGB and Military, but local chiefs who had just enough power and all means of action at their disposal at a local level, who were all "head" of some small department and had criminal records for most of them, sort of local and mediocre mobsters or warlords, and thus the hikers had no way out, they were doomed.
And in the present hypothesis, there was one last character who could have played a role:

PRODANOV Ivan Stepanovich (1906-1964) in 1959 - 1st secretary of the city party committee in Ivdel...


Charles' theory seems to me to have several points in common with that of Aleks Kandr (from which I draw inspiration, hence the acronym TOK).

For Aleks Kandr, there is a hateful character, poorly identified but rich, whom he calls the zakaztchik  : Заказчик  (English: sponsor, boss...French: commanditaire) who pays three hired killers to massacre the hikers, which they succeed in doing on 2 February 1959.

In
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova?showall=&start=6
You can get an overview in just a few lines:

..There were the hired killers sent by someone in the leadership of the Vizhay colony, who had some personal motive to kill the tourists as representatives of the "metropolitan youth", which may have been exacerbated by their negative attitude towards political changes in the country after Stalin's death, including the results of the 1956 20th Party Congress to ease repressive pressure on the prisoners, and against the background of the 21st Congress of the CPSU which was taking place on those days...
   
So the zakaztchik could be Prodanov ???

                    Reply #9
..........................................
And why don’t you copy/past your "politeness" alarms on the thread CrimsonPod also incriminating Prodanov.................
    Dyatlov Pass Forum --> Factual Information --> Materials Modern --> Publications / Media --> CrimsonPod Feb 1, 2022
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1051.msg17183#msg17183

I did not react by sending an "alarm" on this subject for several reasons:

The premeditated murder of 9 people (of which Prodanov is allegedly guilty) is a particularly indefensible act from all points of view.

While the staging according to "1079" seems to me to be a venial offence.

Moreover, this concealment may benefit from extenuating circumstances:
The justified fear of being judged and sentenced with unjust severity.

And also the staging in question seems to me difficult to achieve.

                    Reply #9
..........................................
And why don’t you copy/past your "politeness" alarms ... on the thread Zolotaryov’s meltdown? ....

    Dyatlov Pass Forum   -->Theories Discussion  --> Zolotaryov's meltdown
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=723.msg10873#msg10873
Author Aleksandr Surkov

For 3 reasons :

1) - Surkov took great formal precaution in prefacing his text with the explicit warning:

  All events and characters are fictional, any ressemblance to real events and people is purely coincidental.

2) - It seems completely implausible to me that Zolotariov, who was himself killed, would suddenly become a psychopathic serial killer.
We have no evidence (clue) to support this.

3) - GlennM understands a very fine but profound criticism when he says:
  "this scenario really ticks a lot of boxes and would make a great movie. "

Indeed, a sequence of logical arguments on slightly distorted data can lead to an amusing and seemingly sound final conclusion, albeit one so improbable as to be implausible

In French we say: c'est du cinéma (entertaining fantasy with no relation to reality).

                    Reply #9
..............I look forward to read your denunciations…
But no, you don’t care at all, about any of them:
you just want to troll the present thread, and you succeeded as there are now more off topic replies than replies discussing the original topic of the thread. Congratulations, you got what you wanted.

Charles: I can only repeat that I still do not understand your reproaches or blames at all.

Charles ---> I look forward to read your denunciations.
• which or what dénouncement or denunciations?

Charles ---> no, you don’t care at all, about any of them:
• any of them ? Who are they?
 
Charles ---> you just want to troll the present thread,
• I do not want to troll: I am simply saying that before writing on the Internet the name of the culprit of a horrendous crime - which can be considered, by some with good reason, as pure slander - should we not think a little calmly?
 
Charles ---> you succeeded as there are now more off topic replies than replies discussing the original topic of the thread.
• It is 16 September 2022, I hope to have the opportunity to read more posts in the future discussing the original topic of the thread.

Charles ---> Congratulations, you got what you wanted.
• What I want is to find the most likely explanation for (what I believe to be) the murder of the 9 hikers.

Which for me is more or less the same as developing my TOK theory, which will have to give plausible answers to the questions How ?, Who ? and Why ?
I may even add :
while being well aware that the promoters of the non-criminal versions will always be in the majority, active and powerful.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

September 29, 2022, 05:32:39 PM
Reply #6
Offline

Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

I don't fully understand your graph/ ilastration. The bit that looks like sign waves with doted lines, etc. If you could put a key to what the double lines and dashed lines represent would be useful?

 

September 29, 2022, 06:45:23 PM
Reply #7
Offline

Ziljoe


Thanks Charles,

I don't fully get it yet,  in its entirety. That May say more about me than you. So please don't take it as a criticism. For me , it doesn't translate well, but I think I know what your trying to represent and it is important to your hypothesis and again, it's a new angle for a possible motive . I would like to hear other members comments too.
 

October 29, 2022, 07:40:41 AM
Reply #8
Offline

WAB


I haven't been on this forum in a long time and now I've read the latest posts and I feel very sorry that the forum has become very "yellowed". It's similar to the "yellow press" online. The discussion here has been reduced to a lot of rumor and gossip that has absolutely nothing to do with reality. I understand that it is very difficult to understand the actual events of another state 60+ years later, but to distort them as much as you do here is no longer possible. I remember well the events in my life back then and am quite capable of judging it from a modern perspective, as I have no distortions related to fiction. I saw and see everything in reality. In addition, I have the ability to judge many things from a professional point of view.
I'm very sorry, but there is a lot of questionable or unreliable information on this resource as well. So much of it is in the form of rumors, myths, and gossip.
How far off judgement is I can illustrate by the example of the last post I read.
Dear Charles, please don't be offended by me, but everything I say is based on 100% reality.

About helicopters

In the memoirs of Boris Slobtsov there is a story about the capture of fugitive prisoners, which gave rise to a number of versions associated with gulag convicts, aka zeks. But there really was an escape! In the State Archives, they managed to find a book of escape registration for 1959, from which it follows that on February 19, a group of three prisoners escaped immediately after Gordo called Vizhay. They will only be caught on February 21, when Gordo and Blinov were already there. Does this have something to do with why the investigation doesn't ask them what exactly happened on the spot at that period?

https://dyatlovpass.com/hakimov

Here we don't care about the date of Feb. 21 but about the one of Feb. 01.

And there:

- BORDYUGOV Albert Aleksandrovich (Бордюгов Альберт Александрович), the Commander of helicopter unit of the 123rd air squadron (Ivdel); flew the Po-2 aircraft and the Mi-1 and Mi-4 helicopters. In February 1959, he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the settlement of Vershina.

- TOLSTOV Andrey Andreevich (Толстов Андрей Андреевич) a pilot of MI-1, air squadron 123 - Ivdel. In February 1959, he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the village of Vershina.

- USTYUZHANIN V. (Устюжанин В.) Commander of the An-2 squadron of the 123rd air squadron - Ivdel. Unconfirmed reports suggest: in February 1959 he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the village of Vershina. In the local newspaper he was mentioned as V. Ustinov by mistake.


This rescue operation in Vershina took place at mid-February, but what is written in the flight logs of 123 Air Squadron around Feb. 01? Did they have missions? How many? When? What were the missions? Who was piloting? Who were the passengers?

Before moving on, I would like to clarify what has already been said:
1. The Vershina settlement is so far away from the place of events on the Dyatlov Pass that it is possible not to talk about it. For example, here is a diagram (based on Google-images, which is a reliable representation of reality and allows you to accurately measure distances) which can explain everything:

https://disk.yandex.ru/i/kFHOmfttSYsSpA

The straight line distance is already commensurate with the practical range of the Mi-4 helicopter that was used there. Therefore, we cannot really speak about any connection of these events.

And what was the status of Gladyrev before Mar. 13, 1959?

- GLADYREV Pyotr Vasilyevich (Гладырев Петр Васильевич) (1922-1960)  When in 1958 first helicopters entered squadron service, he did transition training for flying a helicopter and on March 13, 1959 he was confirmed as a plane commander of MI-4 helicopter.

That is to say on Feb. 01, 1959, Gladyrev was able to pilot a MI-4 helicopter but he was not registered as an official MI-4 pilot, is that correct?

No. This is a fundamentally erroneous opinion. Earlier than the date when the order of appointment came out, i.e. the completion of retraining, the pilot could not be allowed to fly. In addition, he had to undergo flight training under the supervision of an instructor who was already admitted and had extensive flying experience. Therefore, he had to start flying independently for some time after that.

Gladyrev was only officially confirmed as MI-4 pilot on March 13, 1959, that very same day when Prodanov was appointed head of operational search? bang1

Prodanov was not appointed to that position. This service did not exist at that time or there at all. You made that up yourself. He was the "very first person" in the area, so all the telephone assignments were secondary and insignificant. Don't put too much emphasis on that here, it will only confuse understanding.

Gladyrev who was later "killed along with the crew (6 people were killed in total) in the MI-4 accident in the Ivdel region on July 19, 1960", and accident decimating the 123 Air Squadron?

What do you mean "air squadron 123 was destroyed"? It existed before and continued to exist until 1992, when it was transferred to the second Sverdlovsk Air Company, only changing its name and management. Only one helicopter and crew were killed.
 
And why did  V.V. Potyazhenko lie to Maria Piskareva: "V.V. said that in May he did not refuse to carry bodies to Sverdlovsk, since only there was a requirement to put them in metal containers"?

He didn't lie about anything. You either misunderstood in a bad translation, or you are purposely distorting the meaning. Such distortions in memory are called memory aberrations in psychology. There is nothing surprising about this. When a person is already about 90 years old and is describing events that were 60 years ago, he may also have forgotten episodes and misunderstandings and misconceptions. The same psychology talks about it this way: valid information is replaced by noise information (which has nothing to do with actual information). In life, it is impossible to ward off other (noisy) information, because that is life itself.

It is well established from the radiograms of Ortyukov and the replies of Prodanov that the pilots did refuse to carry the bodies. Why try to undermine the submission to Prodanov's authority? Potyazhenko's correct answer would have been: "we refused to carry bodies to Sverdlovsk but we were obeying Prodanov's order" not we "did not refuse to carry bodies".

You are misrepresenting the original information. Prodanov could not have given any orders to military pilots. That is a different department. Even a general of another branch of the military could not give orders to pilots. I had a case in practice where an infantry general ordered to load equipment and fly. The crew commander replied, "I can load, but I won't take off because it's against flight rules." There it was a matter of overloading the plane and improper alignment of the cargo, and the general wanted to send it off faster. But there was nothing he could do.
In the same way, Potyazhenko would not take the bodies because they were packed in violation of the instructions for transporting such cargo.
That is why your phrase: "Potyazhenko's correct answer would be: "we refused to take the bodies to Sverdlovsk, but we were following Prodanov's order" (c) is false.

What is the role of the helicopter pilots? Why do we have records of all type of activity at any dates but only silence about Feb. 01?

And why should you be told about February 1 in the context of the events at Dyatlov Pass, if no one flew there, because nothing was known yet?

We know what the pilots were doing in the 1940s and the 1970s but not the slightest information about Jan. 30 - Feb. 02, 1959?

Just as it is unknown about so many periods at any other time...
You press so diligently on all the unknowns that it begs the question: what do you want to achieve, to find out what was real, or to prove some fiction of your own? If that's the second part of the question, what does it have to do with actual events?

Here is a very interesting photo about life in the Northern Urals:



We can see on the same photo a ZIL-157 6x6 truck on the left, a MI-8 helicopter, a tracked vehicle and sledges, the "sledges on iron pipes" that  Dryahlyh was mentioning, at the right. Only Mansi reindeers are missing, but we have there all kinds of Russian means of transport used in the Northern regions. A glimpse into everyday life in the Urals.

Only you misjudge the whole thing.
This is not a Mi-8 helicopter, but a Mi-2. I flew one, so I can tell right away.
2. This picture is from a later period, about 10...15 years later, so it makes no sense to judge what was in 1959.
3. Actually, what are you going to compare, prove or decide with this picture? It can't help in any way to understand what happened.

The MI-4 was not a creation of Soviet engineers but a copy of the American  Sikorsky H-19 designed in 1949.

Once again, you are giving misleading information. The similarity with the Sikorsky H-19 is only in the same layout. By the way, this layout was originally theoretically proposed by Boris Yuryev back in 1911. He was a student of Professor Nikolai Zhukovsky (by the way, my distant relative). Therefore, the resemblance was only in appearance. Yuryev also invented the "automatic tilt mechanism" in the same 1911, without which no helicopter can fly normally. It was only later Sikorsky added additional nodes (servo blades) to it and patented it in the USA.
So, it is not yet known who copied more from whom.
This development was completely independent and even so the gearbox design, which was in the Mi-4, has been slightly improved for the Mi-6 and later heavy and superheavy helicopters. Until now, the U.S. can not make a similar gearbox, so they "lose" in the class of heavy and super-heavy helicopters.

The MI-4 was operational and reliable since 1953. And it was widely used in Soviet Union untill 1988. There are many photos of MI-4 and other helicopters on dyatlovpass.com. See at "Search photos" and "Northern geological expedition".

MI-4 picking up rescuers at Dyatlov Pass:



Guns and helicopters are the symbol of the lifestyle in the Northern Urals.

Where did you get the guns from there? Where did you get the guns from there? Even the administrative contingent (police, prison guards, and special enterprises, such as the nuclear industry...). The Northern Urals is a lot of minerals, a difficult climate, resilient people, now and developed infrastructure, as applied to that area and expanse.  Guns are exotic there, because no one on earth can fight there yet.

The MI-4 could carry 14 fully equipped troops and it determines the maximum size of the hunt party who went after the hikers: no more than 14 henchmen.

Here you are also very inaccurate. The loading of the Mi-4 in the military version was 12 equipped fighters in the low altitude variant (up to 500 m above sea level). Even Slobtsov's group (11 men) was taken to the search site in 2 stages. Six and five men in succession. This was done because their unloading altitudes were close to 1000m, when helicopters' payload capacity drops due to falling air density in the atmosphere.

So I'm surprised that if you don't know much about all the details and specifics of those events and everything that was around them, why do you have to make such "fantasy events" up?

PS. Apparently I will not be able to appear on the forum very quickly, so I will try to answer any questions, but I can't promise that quickly.
 

November 05, 2022, 06:58:31 AM
Reply #9
Offline

Ehtnisba


ENUMERATIVE INDUCTIONS

Enumerative inductions do not allow to conclude to universal assumptions like with the laws of physics, but in issues that are limited to the particular (singular is about one, particular is about more than one but not all, universal is about all), they can produce satisfying conclusions. For example, from the observation of a single drug deal at the corner of a street, you can't conclude anything. But if you observe three or four drug deals at the same corner of the same street, you can conclude to drug trafficking. And these conclusions will be legit and are used everyday in our societies.

So here are some enumerations which could allow us to drive conclusions...

- Repetitive pattern of 3 collisions of Ivan Prodanov and Alexander Kolevatov in TAVDA, IVDEL and KHOLYAT SYAKHL:


- Summarization of the specific defensive injuries of the 3 hikers who died on the slope:


- Grouping of bone fractures in the area of vital organs:


- Grouping of head wounds in the area of temporalis muscles and temporal bone:


- Parallel positions of 5 corpses + 1 perpendicular:


3 occasions where Prodanov and Kolevatov were at the same place at the same time means they have a common history. 20 metacarpophalangeal joints injuries means there was a fight with opponents. 30 bone fractures in the area of vital organs and 7 head wounds in the temporal area means they were aimed at with the intention to kill. 5 corpses laid in parallels means they have been manipulated. These conclusions don't have any value in the field of the universal and laws of physics, but in the field of the particular and human behavior, which is the reign of contingency, they have a high value, not an absolute value but a high value. A much higher value than for example "they found and entered a snow cave" which is based on nothing, and here absolutely nothing.

If I remember correctly temporal lobes are where the possibility for a damage is the greatest as being weaker that the front and top. Usually a side hit makes you stunned or badly concussed. Only Dyatlov and Doroshenko lack wounds on the head. Dyatlov seems like the only one who somehow only has hitted without him being hit severely but is having least clothing.  He could have survived as it looks was managed to avoid further injuries, if he had more layers on him...
Homo homini lupus est!
 

November 28, 2022, 05:00:05 AM
Reply #10
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen



- Skull and face, sternum and ribs fractures only represent 12.58% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 90% of the fractures.

- Arm, hand, pelvis, hip, leg and foot fractures represent 71.87% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 0% of the fractures.

Unfortunately, the study mixes "clavicle, scapula, or humerus" fractures in a same category. Zolotaryov had a very rare scapula fracture and none of the 18 humerus was broken. In the USA for example,  scapula fracture represent approximately 0.4-1%, humerus fracture 8% and clavicle fracture about 3.8% of all fractures. If we could have the detail of the "clavicle, scapula, or humerus" category :

- Skull and face, clavicle, scapula, sternum and ribs fractures represent 16.78-17.38% of all fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 100% of the fractures.

- Arm (humerus included), hand, pelvis, hip, leg and foot fractures represent 79.87% of all fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 0% of the fractures.

We expect 17% in the blue circle and get 100%, we expect 80% elsewhere and get 0%... (forgetting the detail of vertebras).

The pattern of the fractures tells us it was not accidental, the hikers were attacked and the attackers aimed at vital organs (brain, heart, lungs). None of the 9 hikers suffered from any fracture that was not close to vital organs: in all, the hikers had 1,854 bones that could be fractured, but their 30 bone fractures (3 fractures of skull, 3 of scapula, 24 of rib) were all centimeters close to vital organs.

And if considering all types of head wounds, there is also a grouping in the temporal area:



Why some people still cling to the belief that the Dyatlov tragedy was a natural accident, is totally incomprehensible.

I do however believe that the perpetrators were greater forces in the Soviet Union. In my opinion it is likely that the students were killed by order from the highest state authorities, as a preventive killing because the students had witnessed something that made them a threat to state security. A threat to state security had to be eliminated, and eliminated in such a way to make it look like an accident.

The intelligence and sophistication of the KGB is vastly underestimated in the West. But the KGB was probably the most competent, sophisticated and merciless intelligence force known to Man.

Of course, we can never know with 100% certainty. I do not claim 100% certainty.

What we all should realize, is that the Dyatlov pass tragedy was due to lethal attack from human killers.
 

November 29, 2022, 08:58:26 AM
Reply #11
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


I do however believe that the perpetrators were greater forces in the Soviet Union. In my opinion it is likely that the students were killed by order from the highest state authorities, as a preventive killing because the students had witnessed something that made them a threat to state security.

Yes, it's our difference: you think the hikers were killed by a direct order from the highest authorities; I think the hikers were killed by local authorities who were backed afterwards by the highest authorities because local and highest authorities shared a commun interest. You think state security was threatened by the hikers, I think private interests were threatened by the hikers.

There could be here the most sensitive issue: the confusion of state security and private interest, and a confusion in a form and at a scale beyond imagination.


Yes, precisely.

A crucial question is what the nine students observed somewhere in the Urals.

If they observed some secret operations, installations or tests of any kind in the Urals, they would pose a potential risk. The state could not take that risk and let them live, no matter how  loyal Soviet citizens they were. Thus they must be killed, in other words an "accident" had be arranged. It is typical of state agencies to arrange "accidents," "suicides" or "natural deaths" when their aim is to dispose of some real or potential threat without making the action obvious to all.

If that is what actually happened, it is reasonable that the nine were killed as a preventive action because they might have become a real threat to state security if even a single one of them should tell a spouse, a child, friend, colleague or relative about what the nine hikers learned or observed in the Urals. The state authorities and their relevant agency could not take that risk, and for that reason it was decided that they must die.

I could be wrong, there is no 100% certainty, but it is in my view the most plausible explanation. It also explains how the authorities could know that the nine had perished - and even complete preparations for a cover-up "investigation" - long before anyone among their friends or relatives had any reason to suspect that the nine were in trouble of any kind.

It is for certain that the Russian state agencies knew the real cause of the Dyatlov pass tragedy, and since 1959 they have done everything in their power to explain away, hide and deny it. There is a reason for that.
 

December 15, 2022, 11:02:13 AM
Reply #12

Charles

Guest
nothing here
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 07:19:44 PM by Charles »
 

December 15, 2022, 11:41:54 AM
Reply #13
Offline

Ziljoe


If we read carefully the nine autopsy reports, there is an obvious evidence that the death were not accidental:

MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
DOROSHENKO Yuri Alekseevich, 21 years old.
On March 4, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau Comrade V.A. VOZROZHDENNY and Comrade Y.I. LAPTEV in the presence of the prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region state Counselor in Justice of III class Comrade N.I. KLINOV, criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice Comrade L.N. IVANOV and witnesses S.D. GORDO and K.V. NASKICHEV in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box №240 with daylight and sunny weather was performed the autopsy of the body of Y. A. Doroshenko, 21 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION
According to the examination results of the body belonging to Doroshenko Yuri Nikolayevich, aged 21, and considering the circumstances of the case, we believe that the death occurred as the result of low temperature exposure (freezing), which can be proved by the following evidence: meninges oedema, strong hyperaemia in the internal organs, cardiac cavities full of liquid dark blood, petechiae in the gastric mucosa (known as Wischnewsky spots), an excessively full bladder, along with the third and fourth degree frostbite of fingers and toes.
External examination showed damage, such as multiple abrasions and skin wounds caused by a blunt object that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice, and other objects.
The injuries mentioned above occurred while alive, during the agonal state, and after death. The injuries mentioned above can be described as slight injuries without damage to health.
This examination of the body gives reasons to state that the last meal was consumed 6 to 8 hours before death. Alcohol was not found during the tests. The death is violent and accidental.


MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
KRIVONISCHENKO Georgiy Alekseevich, 23 years old.
On March 4, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev in the presence of the prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region state Counselor in Justice of III class N. I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice Mr. L.N. Ivanov and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No.240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of  G. A. Krivonischenko, 23 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the data of investigation of the body of Krivonischenko Georgiy Alekseevich, 23 years old, and considering the facts of the case, we think that the death of Krivonischenko was the result of the action of low temperature/freezing. This is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the blood-filled internal organs, the overfilling of the pericardium with dark liquid blood, the existence of Wischnewsky spots on the folds of the stomach, the overfilling of the bladder, the frostbite on the fingers and toes and burns of the II-III degree by fire. Observed (written by hand, approximation).
The lesions, grazes and skin wounds found during the external examination could have been the result of a fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc. The above-mentioned injuries were inflicted on Krivonischenko during life, the agonal state, and after death. The data of the investigation of the body of Krivonischenko provide the basis to suggest that he ate only 6-8 hours before the time of death. No presence of alcohol was found during the examination. The death was violent and accidental.


MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old.
On 4 March 1959, in accordance with the decree of the prosecutor’s office of the Sverdlovsk region of 3 March 1959, an autopsy was performed on the body of I. A. Dyatlov, 23 years old, by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Class-III State Counselor of Justice N. I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor’s office Junior Counselor of Justice L. N. Ivanov, and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev, in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No. 240, with daylight and sunny weather, in order to determine the cause of death and answer the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On 23 January 1959, an independent group of hikers consisting of ten people traveled across the Ivdel–Mount Otorten ski path. Leaving from the second Northern site, the group consisted of nine people. On 1 February 1959, the group started the climb up mount Otorten, and in the evening they put up a tent at a height of 1 079 meters.
Under unknown circumstances, on the night of February 2, all nine people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the data discovered (added by hand) from the examination of the body of Igor Alekseevich Dyatlov, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances of the case, we think Dyatlov died as the result of hypothermia/freezing signified by the oedema of the meninges, the sharp hyperaemia of the internal organs, the filling of the heart cavities with liquid dark blood, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, the overfilled bladder, and III and IV degree frostbite on the extremities.
The damage discovered (note: the word is handwritten) during the external examination in the form of graze wounds, scratches and skin wounds were caused by a blunt object and may have happened as the result of a fall and bruising by stone, ice, etc.
The above-mentioned damage was caused both during life, as well as in the agonal and post-mortem states. The above-mentioned injuries are light and not damaging to health.
The data of the examination of the body of Dyatlov shows that his last meal was 6-8 hours before death. The investigation discovered no presence of alcohol. The cause of death is by violence/accident.



MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
KOLMOGOROVA Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old
On March 4, 1959, in accordance with the decree of the prosecutor’s office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959, an autopsy was performed on the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Class-III State Counselor of Justice N.I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor’s office Junior Counselor of Justice L.N. Ivanov, and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev, in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No. 240, with daylight and sunny weather, in order to determine the cause of death and answer the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959, an independent group of hikers, consisting of ten people traveled along the Ivdel – Mount Otorten ski path. Leaving from the second Northern site, the group consisted of nine people. On February 1, 1959, the group started the climb up mount Otorten, and in the evening they put up a tent at a height of 1,079 meters.
Under unknown circumstances, in the night, on February 2, all nine people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances of the case, we feel that the death of Kolmogorova was the result of cool temperatures/freezing, as evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the hyperaemia of the internal organs, the dark liquid blood in the heart cavities, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the fourth-degree frostbite on the third distal phalanges of the fingers; the injuries found on Kolmogorova’s body in the form of abrasions and skin wounds were caused by a blunt instrument and the result of a fall and injuries on rocks, ice and snow.
The above-mentioned injuries occurred while Kolmogorova was alive, in the agonal state, and posthumously.
The investigation of the body of Komogоrova allows for the basis of theory that she last ate 6-8 hours before the time of death. Alcohol was not detected during the investigation. Kolmogorova’s virginity is still intact. The cause of death was violent and accidental.



MEDICAL-FORENSIC EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF CITIZEN
SLOBODIN Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old
On March 8, 1959, in accordance with the decree of the prosecutor’s office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 7, 1959, with daylight and sunny weather an autopsy was performed on the body of Slobodin R. V., by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Class-III State Counselor of Justice Mr. N.I. Klinov, criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor’s office Junior Counselor of Justice L. N. Ivanov, and witnesses S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev, in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box №240, in order to determine the cause of death and answer the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959, an independent group of hikers consisting of ten people traveled across the Ivdel–Mount Otorten ski path. Starting from the second Northern site, the group consisted of nine people. On February 1, 1959, the group started the climb up mount Otorten, and in the evening they put up a tent at a height of 1079 meters.
Under unknown circumstances, on the night of February 2, all nine people died.
CONCLUSION
Based on the data of the examination of the body of Slobodin Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances of the case, I believe that the death of Slobodin was caused by the action of low temperature/freezing, which is evidenced by the swelling of the meninges, the blood-filled internal organs, the Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, and the third- and fourth-degree freezing of the fingers.
The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing.
The injuries found on Slobodin’s body in the form of abrasions, scrapes and graze wounds were caused by a blunt object as the result of a fall or injury on rocks, ice, etc.
The damage was caused during life, as well as in the agonal state and post mortem.
The data of the examination of Slobodin’s body allows for the presumption that his last meal was 6-8 hours before the time of death. The presence of alcohol was not detected during the examination. Taking account these injuries, in the first hour after they happened Slobodin was able to move and crawl. Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.



Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of the PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of Lyudmila Aleksandrovna DUBININA, 20 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances:
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION:
Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death of Dubinina was caused by massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.
The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Dubinina.
Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.
The death of Dubinina is through violence.



Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of the PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of Aleksander Alekseevich ZOLOTARYOV, 37 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances:
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION:
Based on the examination of the body of Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal hemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotaryov’s ribs with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotaryov at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing. The damage of the soft tissue in the area of Mr. Zolotaryov’s head and the presence of bath skin in the area of fingers and upper and lower extremities are postmortem changes in the body of Zolotaryov, which was underwater before it was found.
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.


Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of Aleksander KOLEVATOV, 24 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Severny site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION:
Based on the examination of the body , of Kolevatov, I think that his death was the result of low temperature.
The injuries that appear on Kolevatov’s body in the area of his head – defects in the soft tissue and the ‘bath skin’ – are the result of post-death changes in the body, which was located in water for some time before it was found.
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.


Medical-Forensic Examination of a body
On the May 9, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of May 7, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of the criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice L.N. Ivanov and criminal expert Churkina G.A. in the morgue of the medical unit of the PO Box 240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the body of THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE Nikolay Vasilyevich, 23 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration.
Case circumstances:
On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 people went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Northern site the group consisted of 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters.
In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 people died.
CONCLUSION
On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle, it is my opinion that his death was the result of a closed comminuted pressure fracture in the area of the base and the vault of the cranium with a prolific amount of bleeding under the meninges and brain matter while under low temperature. The above-mentioned extensive comminuted fracture of the base and the vault of the cranium are of in vivo origin and are the result of a great force with the subsequent falling, hurling and concussion of Thibeaux-Brignolle.
The corporal damage of the soft tissue in the area of the head and the ‘bath skin’ of the extremities are the result of post-mortem changes in the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle, which was found submerged in water after some time.
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.


In summary:

V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev in the presence of N. I. Klinov, L.N. Ivanov and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
According to the examination results of the body belonging to Doroshenko Yuri Nikolayevich, aged 21, and considering the circumstances
we believe
The death is violent and accidental.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev in the presence of N. I. Klinov, L.N. Ivanov and witnesses S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the data of investigation of the body of Krivonischenko Georgiy Alekseevich, 23 years old, and considering the facts of the case
we think
The death was violent and accidental.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence of  N. I. Klinov, L. N. Ivanov, and  S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev,
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the data discovered (added by hand) from the examination of the body of Igor Alekseevich Dyatlov, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances
we think
The cause of death is by violence/accident.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence  N.I. Klinov, L.N. Ivanov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances
we feel
The cause of death was violent and accidental.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny and Y. I. Laptev, in the presence N.I. Klinov, L. N. Ivanov, and S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev
Case circumstances:  unknown circumstances
Based on the data of the examination of the body of Slobodin Rustem Vladimirovich, 23 years old, and considering the circumstances
I believe
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence  L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A.
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina
I think
The death of Dubinina is through violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A.
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the examination of the body
I think
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence  L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
Based on the examination of the body of Kolevatov
I think
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of  L.N. Ivanov and Churkina G.A.
Case circumstances: unknown circumstances
On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeaux-Brignolle
it is my opinion
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.


And if we refine once more:

V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N. I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
we believe
The death is violent and accidental.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N. I. Klinov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
we think
The death was violent and accidental.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of  N. I. Klinov, and  S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev,
we think
The cause of death is by violence/accident.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of N.I. Klinov, and S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
we feel
The cause of death was violent and accidental.


V. A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence N.I. Klinov, and S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev
I believe
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of Churkina G.A.
I think
The death of Dubinina is through violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of Churkina G.A.
I think
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence Churkina G.A
I think
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny in the presence of Churkina G.A.
it is my opinion
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.


It appears that the conclusions of the autopsies are different according to the people surrounding V.A. Vozrozhdenny. Ivanov was always present, it is doubtful that Laptev or Churkina could have influenced Vozrozhdenny, so it was N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev who made the difference. And we can refine once more the list:

in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The death is violent and accidental


in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The death was violent and accidental


in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The cause of death is by violence/accident


in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
The cause of death was violent and accidental


in the presence of N.I. Klinov, S.D. Gordo and K.V. Naskichev
Slobodin’s death was violent and accidental


V.A. Vozrozhdenny
The death of Dubinina is through violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny
Zolotaryov died as a result of violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny
The cause of death of Kolevatov was through violence.


V.A. Vozrozhdenny
The death of Thibeaux-Brignolle was a result of violence.


When N.I. Klinov, S. D. Gordo and K. V. Naskichev were not present, V.A. Vozrozhdenny always correctly concluded to "The cause of death was through violence", it was only when they were present that he abusively concluded to "and accidental". V.A. Vozrozhdenny knew these conclusions were abusive and that's why he used the conditional in the reports of the autopsies where N.I. Klinov and S.D. Gordo were present and that's why he never wrote "we think" or "we believe" or "we feel" in the reports of the autopsies where N.I. Klinov and S.D. Gordo were not present but always "I think" and "it is my opinion", always basing his conclusion only on the exam of the body and neglecting to consider the "unknown circumstances" of the death.

The conclusion "and accidental" was always an abusive and collective conclusion where N.I. Klinov and S.D. Gordo were involved and V.A. Vozrozhdenny never concluded to "and accidental" when he was alone and free of their pressures.

---

I think it's because he's writing about the ravine 4. There deaths can be attributed to the injuries the sustained. They can equate that those injuries were the cause of death. I could be wrong but I think they mean violence to the body and not violence in the context from another human .  The others are reported to have slight injuries and death is accidental. I think what they are trying to say there's no sign of external injuries that would imply other humans. The external injuries are not the cause of death. It's all they can write. It's procedure .....
 
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December 15, 2022, 03:34:10 PM
Reply #14
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Ziljoe


Yes but the circumstances of the death are the same "unknown circumstances" in all autopsy reports and the absence of Klinov and Gordo allowed Vozrozhdenny not to write "and accidental". There is a clear opposition between:


"Based on the investigation of the body of Kolmogorova Zinaida Alekseevna, 22 years old, and taking into account the circumstances of the case, we feel that the death... violent and accidental."

and

"Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death... violence."

It is not about the location where the bodies were found but about the pressure put by Klinov and Gordo on Vozrozhdenny. Vozrozhdenny, when doing his job free of pressure, could only conclude to "The death is violent", the extra and abusive "and accidental" being only the expression of the pressure put by Klinov and Gordo. It is obvious and must be credited to Vozrozhdenny (whose rating rises on this occasion).

But you have here a personal mail waiting for your reply: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg19342#msg19342

---

If we look at from the chronology of the autopsies. The first bodies were found with no outward sign of injuries that caused death. All that could be written is I believe/think etc. The suspicion is low , people are found dead in the snow with various injuries, as I have put forward before from hypothermia. So at that moment in time of the autopsy, assuming that there's no conspiracy of some hidden organised crime. Everything reads as should be.

5 dead bodies, found in unknown circumstances, there's nothing more to conclude. There's no stab wounds ,bullet holes or slit throats.

It doesn't matter who's with who. In my view they probably talked about it, speculated , talked some more and wrote all what they did. I think, I believe, in my opinion. There's nothing to suggest anymore. The autopsy is to report the cause of death, not solve the crime.

When the ravine 4 are found, then surly that's when they should have been influenced/ intimated to write "accidental" . If anyone had the power to influence what was written, that's when they turn up. But this is not the case. So when the ravine 4 have their autopsies. There is no I believe or I think because he doesn't have to believe or think what the cause of death is. There's violence to the bodies broken ribs and bunch of other stuff.  He has a cause of death.

Now ,I am unsure where violence starts and accidental stops . But there is still no evidence of outsiders. This is regarding the injuries. Theres no round brusing from hammer blows or imprints of ski boots, no bullet holes etc. There is speculation by some wittness that there was a snow collapse at the time.

Whatever the case , the autopsy can only advise what was observed in the bodies.

So, coming back to the ravine 4. They didn't have evidence of outsiders or murder, they couldn't workout the cause of injuries , but a force caused the injuries as per the flail chest fractures and we end up with unknown force.

I'm awaiting your reply to when the request to exhume the 9 bodies was given?.

I'll get to your slave labour question in a bit. Just going to dust of a bottle of Russian red wine to try and go through the posts. Back in a tick.
 
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December 15, 2022, 04:23:59 PM
Reply #15
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Ziljoe


The autopsy is to report the cause of death, not solve the crime.

It is exactly my point here. The conclusions excluded the possibility of "murder" when Klinov and Gordo were with Vozrozhdenny, the conclusions included the possibility of "murder" when Vozrozhdenny was alone. The autopsies in presence of Klinov and Gordo already solved the case, and when Vozrozhdenny was alone they just reported the cause of death, with a conclusion remaining at the level of genus and not descending at the level of species. Genus is violence and species are accident, suicide and murder. The first five conclusions were already and illegitimately closing the case, the last four conclusions kept the case open. What did Vozrozhdenny, when he was alone after Klinov and Gordo left, was huge. And I think he deserves a credit for maintaining the legitimate genus conclusion and abandoning the illegitimate species conclusion. Because he didn't have, for any of the nine bodies, the elements allowing to leave genus and to descend into species: he couldn't legitimately conclude to any of accident, suicide or murder species. The conclusions in presence of Klinov and Gordo were abusive, and the abuse stopped when they left and Vozrozhdenny remained alone.

---

I'm a bit confused as to what your trying to communicate here. Genus/ species? You rushed this reply.
 

December 15, 2022, 05:09:09 PM
Reply #16
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Ziljoe


I'm awaiting your reply to when the request to exhume the 9 bodies was given?

Apparently, the request to exhume the nine bodies is still awaited:

"Tumanov's opinion is that all bodies should be exhumed and subjected to a new full autopsy for missed or omitted on purpose details."

https://dyatlovpass.com/theories?lid=1&flp=1#fight

And:

"He is pointing at the following discrepancies and violations when the bodies were first protocoled:
[...]The conclusions in the first five autopsy reports were copy/pasted
"

The presence of Klinov and Gordo lowered the quality of the first five autopsies they attended. The quality of the autopsy reports increased after Klinov and Gordo left and when Vozrozhdenny was alone.



Er....no Charles. You refered to the recent exhumation of Zolotaryov. Then implied that they stopped the other 8 from exhumation as they might find more broken bones. Re read your own posts .
 

December 15, 2022, 05:17:24 PM
Reply #17
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Ziljoe


Genus:a principal taxonomic category that ranks above species and below family, and is denoted by a capitalized Latin name, e.g. Leo.

Genus:(in philosophical and general use) a class of things that have common characteristics and that can be divided into subordinate kinds.

Species: What do we mean by a species?
A biological species is a group of organisms that can reproduce with one another in nature and produce fertile offspring.

I do not understand your post. Maybe it's me.please simplify for my low is. TIA
 

December 15, 2022, 05:48:59 PM
Reply #18
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Ziljoe


Er ...no Charles, if you haven't already re-edited your posts. You said the reason they stopped the ehumintaion was because the found 3 fractures were found in Zolotaryov. The reason for the ehumintaion of Zolotaryov was for a different reason that I shared with you.
 

December 15, 2022, 06:21:17 PM
Reply #19
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Ziljoe


Er ...no Charles, if you haven't already re-edited your posts. You said the reason they stopped the ehumintaion was because the found 3 fractures were found in Zolotaryov. The reason for the ehumintaion of Zolotaryov was for a different reason that I shared with you.

The reason for the exhumation of Zolotaryov is indifferent, they found 3 new fractures at the scapula, and it was certainly a good motive not to exhume the other bodies as wished by Tumanov. That's what I think, if I was not precise, I corrected myself and my position is clear: I think exactly the same as Tumanov: all 9 bodies should be exhumed and that the possibility to find new fractures certainly restrained the authorities to complete a serious investigation.

---

Blah d blah. you said they stopped it after the 3 fractures were found. Yet you have not accepted the reason for the exhumation of Zolotaryov. You were, as usual , premature in your assumption.

You have already told the world wide internet you suffer from premature ejaculation. I hope you can resolve the issue and satisfy a woman so you can have a long and strong loving relationship.
 
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December 15, 2022, 06:34:30 PM
Reply #20
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Ziljoe


I am sure that you are a better person than you show yourself here and I won't blame you if you edit your previous reply to improve the quality of its content, you have the right to be wrong and to regret.

How so? You stated russian women were only good for quick sex?
 

December 15, 2022, 06:54:01 PM
Reply #21
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Ziljoe


I am sure that you are a better person than you show yourself here and I won't blame you if you edit your previous reply to improve the quality of its content, you have the right to be wrong and to regret: it is called a repentir in painting.

---

Where am I wrong and why should I repent? You talk about sex although you equate it to romance . You say , russian women are only good for quick sex. What are other women that are not Russian good for? Washing your socks? Massaging your already small ego?
 
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December 15, 2022, 06:57:33 PM
Reply #22
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Ziljoe


If you had something to say, you could write a reply in the thread, here. Otherwise it's just another ad hominem attack from somebody who can't find arguments, that's all: I am not responsible if you can't understand taxonomy, genus and species.

It's you that uses ad hominem arguments. Re-read your posts. it was GlennM that brought your attention to ad hominem you bam pot.
 

December 15, 2022, 07:20:22 PM
Reply #23
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Ziljoe


It would seem our Charles is heavily editing his posts. I wonder why?
 
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December 16, 2022, 02:05:43 AM
Reply #24
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Почемучка


It would seem our Charles is heavily editing his posts. I wonder why?
Уходит в партизаны?

Join the partisans?

++++++++++++++++++
Сэр Ziljoe, Вы обратили внимание - насколько полезно быть русским мамонтом? Я всегда цитирую то, чему отвечаю. Этому меня научило достаточно долгое пребывание в теме. И на русских просторах - обитают такие оппоненты что практикуют частую кардинальную редакцию поста. Лично я обращалась к админу одного из наших тематических ресурсов, чтобы была возможность сохранять все истории редакции поста. Это было сделано.
И такая рационализация очень полезна. Всем, в том числе и тому, кто сам пишет пост.
Она не дает ему сильно растекаться по древу дискуссии в сторону некрасивых поступков. А читающему - очевидно наблюдать насколько оппонент рыцарь с открытым забралом и склонен к изменению мнения.

Sir Ziljoe, have you noticed how useful it is to be a Russian mammoth? I always quote what I reply to. This was taught to me by quite a long stay in the subject. And in the Russian open spaces - such opponents live that they practice frequent cardinal editing of the post. Personally, I turned to the admin of one of our thematic resources so that I could save all the revision stories of the post. That was done.
And this rationalization is very useful. Everyone, including the one who wrote the post himself.
She does not allow him to spread much along the tree of discussion in the direction of ugly deeds. And it is obvious to the reader to observe how much the opponent is a knight with an open visor and is inclined to change his mind.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 02:15:01 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
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December 16, 2022, 02:17:34 AM
Reply #25
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Почемучка



I think it's because he's writing about the ravine 4. There deaths can be attributed to the injuries the sustained. They can equate that those injuries were the cause of death. I could be wrong but I think they mean violence to the body and not violence in the context from another human .  The others are reported to have slight injuries and death is accidental. I think what they are trying to say there's no sign of external injuries that would imply other humans. The external injuries are not the cause of death. It's all they can write. It's procedure .....

Сэр Ziljoe, проверяйте свое родословное дерево. У Вас явно гены - от сэра Артура Конан Дойля.

Вы ухватили самый главный смысл термина - причина смерти насильственная. Возрожденный писал этот термин именно для юристов.
У юристов - насильственная смерть это все кроме смерти от старости. От чего или кого происходило насилие и случилась смерть - это задача расследования. Следствие искало посторонних людей, природные явления и попыталось даже поглядеть в сторону техногенной катастрофы. Следствие - не рассматривала самоубийства. Хотя и они - это насильственная смерть, только насилие над собою совершает сам субъект.

В результате - следствие в Прекращении уголовного дело так и описало то, что совершило насилие и сделало туристов мертвыми. Неодолимая стихийная сила природы.

Sir Ziljoe, check your family tree. You obviously have genes - from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

You have grasped the most important meaning of the term - the cause of death is violent. Vozrozhdenny wrote this term specifically for lawyers.
For lawyers, violent death is everything except death from old age. From what or whom the violence occurred and death happened - this is the task of the investigation. The investigation was looking for strangers, natural phenomena, and even tried to look in the direction of a man-made disaster. Consequence - did not consider suicide. Although they are a violent death, only the subject himself commits violence against himself.
As a result, the investigation in the Termination of the criminal case described exactly what committed the violence and made the tourists dead. Irresistible elemental force of nature.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 02:25:44 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 16, 2022, 03:02:01 AM
Reply #26
Offline

Ziljoe



I think it's because he's writing about the ravine 4. There deaths can be attributed to the injuries the sustained. They can equate that those injuries were the cause of death. I could be wrong but I think they mean violence to the body and not violence in the context from another human .  The others are reported to have slight injuries and death is accidental. I think what they are trying to say there's no sign of external injuries that would imply other humans. The external injuries are not the cause of death. It's all they can write. It's procedure .....

Сэр Ziljoe, проверяйте свое родословное дерево. У Вас явно гены - от сэра Артура Конан Дойля.

Вы ухватили самый главный смысл термина - причина смерти насильственная. Возрожденный писал этот термин именно для юристов.
У юристов - насильственная смерть это все кроме смерти от старости. От чего или кого происходило насилие и случилась смерть - это задача расследования. Следствие искало посторонних людей, природные явления и попыталось даже поглядеть в сторону техногенной катастрофы. Следствие - не рассматривала самоубийства. Хотя и они - это насильственная смерть, только насилие над собою совершает сам субъект.

В результате - следствие в Прекращении уголовного дело так и описало то, что совершило насилие и сделало туристов мертвыми. Неодолимая стихийная сила природы.

Sir Ziljoe, check your family tree. You obviously have genes - from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

You have grasped the most important meaning of the term - the cause of death is violent. Vozrozhdenny wrote this term specifically for lawyers.
For lawyers, violent death is everything except death from old age. From what or whom the violence occurred and death happened - this is the task of the investigation. The investigation was looking for strangers, natural phenomena, and even tried to look in the direction of a man-made disaster. Consequence - did not consider suicide. Although they are a violent death, only the subject himself commits violence against himself.
As a result, the investigation in the Termination of the criminal case described exactly what committed the violence and made the tourists dead. Irresistible elemental force of nature.

Thank you Почемучка

Our family tree is hard to trace, only a link to vikings .

Forum member Igor B helped to explain the term violent in the context of Russian law.  The autopsies translate reasonably well into English and seem matter of factual. Perhaps they could have done more but it was 1959 and forensic science was evolving . I imagine that they had found all that they could at that time. 

The investigation seems to run through all possibilities and came to a dead end. I believe ,if there was a cover-up , then it would have been done so that none of our conversations would be taking place.

What is your understanding of what occured to the DP9?.
 

December 16, 2022, 03:30:45 AM
Reply #27
Offline

Почемучка



Thank you Почемучка

Our family tree is hard to trace, only a link to vikings .

Викинги - это варяги в русском названии. Если нырнуть в русскую историю - варяги у нас были царями. Рюриковичи.
Викинги были тем мореплавающим народом, который внес свой геном и в Америку. Так что Англия - это просто то, до чего легче приплыть. И маленько опустошить казну. Англия тоже прибегала к варягам как очень профессиональным наемникам. Причем с самого начала образования королевств.
Так что Вы более коренной англичанин, чем даже сами англо-саксы.  Викинги были очень брутальными внешне и это немного выправляло генофонд Англии. Они были и мудрыми и талантливыми стратегами, и справедливыми начальниками. А уж как выигрышно выглядели на фоне небольшого росточка представителей местных островных племен.

Vikings are Varangians in the Russian name. If you dive into Russian history, the Varangians were our kings. Rurikovich.
The Vikings were the seafaring people who brought their genome to America. So England is just where it's easier to sail. And empty the treasury a little. England also resorted to the Varangians as very professional mercenaries. And from the very beginning of the formation of kingdoms.
So you are more native English than even the Anglo-Saxons themselves. The Vikings were very brutal in appearance and this slightly straightened the gene pool of England. They were both wise and talented strategists and fair bosses. And how advantageous they looked against the background of a small sprout of representatives of local island tribes.


Forum member Igor B helped to explain the term violent in the context of Russian law.  The autopsies translate reasonably well into English and seem matter of factual. Perhaps they could have done more but it was 1959 and forensic science was evolving . I imagine that they had found all that they could at that time. 

The investigation seems to run through all possibilities and came to a dead end. I believe ,if there was a cover-up , then it would have been done so that none of our conversations would be taking place.

What is your understanding of what occured to the DP9?.

Сэр Ziljoe, если Вы шифруете под тремя знаками DP9 - погибших участников гр. Дятлова. И если Вы хотите узнать мою точку зрения, то я её вкратце пояснила здесь.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg19320#msg19320
Добавлю только что природной неодолимой силой чаще всего бывает именно русская зима. Климатические параметры и естественные события в виде: очень холодно, очень много снега, очень сильный ветер. Если по какой-то причине несерьезно оценивать эти угрозы, то итог всегда получается ближе к смерти.


Sir Ziljoe, if you encrypt under the three signs DP9 - the dead members of gr. Dyatlov. And if you want to know my point of view, then I briefly explained it here.
I will just add that the Russian winter is most often the irresistible force of nature. Climatic parameters and natural events in the form of: very cold, a lot of snow, very strong wind. If for some reason it is not serious to evaluate these threats, then the result is always closer to death.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 03:58:02 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 17, 2022, 05:35:36 PM
Reply #28
Offline

Ehtnisba


Homo homini lupus est!
 

December 17, 2022, 11:28:49 PM
Reply #29
Offline

Почемучка


nothing here

What happened to Charles?
Это совпало с приходом Анны Русских. Видимо  "Боливар не выдержит двоих"  О. Генри.
This coincided with the arrival of Anna Russkikh. Apparently "Bolivar cannot carry double" O. Henry.

Давайте я разложу Вам весь расклад. Вы наверное обратили внимание, что месье Чарльз выбрал  в своей версии в качестве убийцы - персону с названным именем и фамилией. Ровно так же поступила и Анна Русских.
Родственники и потомки всегда есть у каждого. У Кириленко  - есть сын. И он подал в суд на Анну Русских на необыкновенной подлости клевету. Анна Русских - это нищая пенсионерка. В части финансовой компенсации - с неё взять чего. Законы не позволяют. Можно было отправить на психиатрическую экспертизу и разместить в лечебницу. Но - это опять выходило бы дороже государству.
Суд посчитал что Анна Русских - старея неизбежно теряет грани разумного. Суд повелел уничтожить тираж книги и успокоиться с творчеством. Это - на основании материальных возможностей сторон судебного разбирательства и выгоды с этого государству.

Я напомню, что месье Чарльз пугал именно меня Европейским Судом, писал какой он материально обеспеченный и тому подобное. У Проданова - тоже есть потомки. Подай они в суд на месье Чарльза за клевету - суд был бы по месту обитания Чарльза и за деньги месье Чарльза. И с последствиями для месье Чарльза - в части компенсации морального вреда.
И нашелся бы адвокат - что за гонорар: оставил бы месье Чарльза только с гербом Бурбонов. Потому что имеется великое множество данных, что Проданов не играл ту роль что выдумал ему месье Чарльз. Они - документальны и они являются доказательствами.

Let me lay out the whole layout for you. You probably noticed that Monsieur Charles chose in his version as a killer - a person with a given name and surname. Anna Russkikh did exactly the same.
Everyone always eats relatives and descendants. Kirilenko has a son. And he sued Anna Russkikh for unusual meanness of slander. Anna Russkikh is a poor pensioner. In terms of financial compensation - take something with her. Laws do not allow. It was possible to send for a psychiatric examination and placed in a hospital. But - this would again come out more expensive for the state.
The court considered that Anna Russkikh - aging inevitably loses the boundaries of reason. The court ordered to destroy the circulation of the book and calm down with creativity. This is based on the material possibilities of the parties to the proceedings and the benefits from this to the state.
Let me remind you that Monsieur Charles frightened me with the European Court, wrote about how financially secure he was and the like. Prodanov also has descendants. If they had sued Monsieur Charles for libel, the trial would have been at the place of residence of Charles and for the money of Monsieur Charles. And with consequences for Monsieur Charles - in terms of compensation for non-pecuniary damage.
And there would be a lawyer - what a fee: he would leave Monsieur Charles only with the coat of arms of the Bourbons. Because there is a great deal of evidence that Prodanov did not play the role that Monsieur Charles invented for him. They are documentary and they are evidence.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2022, 04:08:10 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...