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Author Topic: Which commonly known "facts" are not factual?  (Read 4911 times)

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April 03, 2022, 06:36:07 PM
Reply #30
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marieuk


Fact: Igor Dyatlov was a good leader.

Actually : his team was always behind schedule, he overestimated the ability of his team to complete the hike, he felt so entitled he allowed himself to punish adults during their vacation, he had such poor leadership skill he allowed himself and other boys to be arbitrarily and unfairly be rude and agressive with some members of the team, he had no sense of team building whatsoever, no ability to solve interpersonal issues and no ability to motivate individuals.

I'd  be interested to hear more about this.  sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. do you think he behaved differently on this trip to other ones?
 

April 04, 2022, 08:20:35 PM
Reply #31
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Ziljoe


Fact: Igor Dyatlov was a good leader.

Actually : his team was always behind schedule, he overestimated the ability of his team to complete the hike, he felt so entitled he allowed himself to punish adults during their vacation, he had such poor leadership skill he allowed himself and other boys to be arbitrarily and unfairly be rude and agressive with some members of the team, he had no sense of team building whatsoever, no ability to solve interpersonal issues and no ability to motivate individuals.

I'd  be interested to hear more about this.  sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. do you think he behaved differently on this trip to other ones?

I'm interested also. I would like to hear your evidence for conclusion to your statements.
 

May 06, 2022, 01:40:13 PM
Reply #32
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Charles


Hello Marieuk and Ziljoe,

all these aspects of Dyatlov's leadership :

his team was always behind schedule, he overestimated the ability of his team to complete the hike, he felt so entitled he allowed himself to punish adults during their vacation, he had such poor leadership skill he allowed himself and other boys to be arbitrarily and unfairly be rude and agressive with some members of the team, he had no sense of team building whatsoever, no ability to solve interpersonal issues and no ability to motivate individuals

can be found in the diaries. And we can add "emotional instability" :

Jan. 25 Igor Dyatlov was unrecognizable. He tried to dance, and even started singing: "O Jackie Joe" (Lyuda’s Diary)
Jan. 28 Igor was rude the whole evening, I just couldn't recognize him. (Zina’s Diary)

as the girls both wrote they could not "recognize" him... from joy to anger and in a magnitude which was beyond any previous knowledge. The magnitude of the surge of joy compared to the normal was enough to make Dyatlov unrecognizable to Lyuda, the magnitude of the dive into anger compared to the normal was enough to make Dyatlov unrecognizable to Zina, but who noticed the cumulated magnitude of the gap between this unrecognizable joy and unrecognizable anger ? Yuri Yudin* would have been smart and refined enough to notice this gap, but he left the group on the morning of jan. 28. And maybe Slobodin who began to note the lyrics of Othello's song** in his diary.

Today, we would label these extreme changes of mood as "manic depression" or "bipolar disorder". But, in any case, Dyatlov was instable. Either the sudden and extreme changes of mood*** were kept secret from his friends and ignored but came to a point where they had to be manifested, either these changes of mood appeared for the first time at the beginning of the hike: in any case there was something suddenly altered of Dyatlov's behavior.

According to anthropologist René Girard, manic depression or bipolar disorder can't be understood as the state of a single individual, they have to be understood as the symptom of a relationship between two, and a of conflictual relationship. According to René Girard, there is a hidden counterpart who is down when the subject is high, and high when the subject is down... And therefore, we can ask the question: who was Dyatlov's secret enemy ? Was he one of the hikers ? Did he follow the group from District 41 ?

Dyatlov had issues with other hikers : he unfairly punished Thibeaux and Kolevatov, Zina suffered of his rudeness, there was tension with Lyuda. There was also possible jealousy of Kolevatov (elected best speaker about love), of Krivonischenko (who had knowledge of the content of Lyuda’s diary), of Thibeaux (Thibeaux and Lyuda as love doctors), of Yudin (Zina and Lyuda missed him), of Ognev (Lyuda and specially Zina who noted his personal address in her diary). He had issues with the group as a whole : "Gosya (Igor) Dyatlov said with a smirk: 'If the tea is cold, then go drink it outside, it will be hot' ", "it was decided that we will leave the tent exactly 8 minutes after waking up. Therefore, all have been awake and waiting for the command. But it is useless. Around 9:30 in the morning we began slowly to rise. Everyone is reluctant to get up." and his name was not mentioned in leaflet...

The leader could make a scathing remark aimed at anyone in the group, but the command to rise up did not come and that day after he punished two adults for slowing down the group... there were serious and long arguments between the hikers... and in the end, Dyatlov's name was not even mentioned in the satyrical leaflet... He "tried" to dance, but in the end he was not part of the fun... He was only part of the tensions and as a leader an essentiel part (he was nurturing tension like Lyuda was with Evgeniy Zinovyev and Valya)... The only word written about reconciliation was in Yuri Yudin's diary, "amnesty", and it was crossed out. They wrote about arguments, rudeness, stupidity, cursing, exclusion, loneliness, treason, accusation, punishment, dissent, jealousy, sadness, discomfort and fatigue, but they never ever wrote about forgiveness... Tensions could rise, grow and spread, but according to the diaries nobody ever did anything to repair relationships. They were always sewing the tent falling in pieces, but never sewing the group...

I will make a chronological list of all tensions appearing in the diaries and of all situations of potential tension and able to trigger conflict, from loud argument to subtle humiliation... when I have enough time...  shock1

----
* Lyuda wrote in her diary on Jan. 24: "no one even noticed how we started to discuss love issues", but "Discussion about love provoked by Z. Kolmogorova" wrote the same day Yudin in Group's diary.

** Slobodin did not copy the complete lyrics, were missing:

12 Othello went into a terrible rage -
Killed everyone who was in the area,
And in the end he stabbed himself...

13 Let Othello act boldly
Or cowardly - you be the judge
But the Moor - he did his job


But all hikers heard the complete song... Jealousy leading to a mass killing... Who could have been the Othello of the hikers ? Dyatlov ? Thibeaux ? Kolevatov ? Slobodin ? Ognev and Valya ? Did anyone of them do his job ?

***Lyuda also showed extreme change of mood when writing her diary on Jan. 26 : "After the cinema, everyone was very tired and wanted to sleep. We lay down with Zina on a spring bed. It's a dream come true. And the guys are all on the floor. Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell." But this sudden change from "dream come true" to "evil as hell" can be explained if she had her period and was experiencing abundant menstrual discharge, as "probably will be for two more days" can help us understand. A predictable change of mood of a girl which is measurable in days can only be related to menstrual cycle. And "two more days" brings her to Jan. 28 in the best. She was hiking in the snow of the Urals having her period... And she felt certainly absolutely miserable that Jan. 30 if she was still bleeding, and in any case tired and lonely after that effort, surrounded with hikers able to be rude and to make sexual jokes until 3 am, and perfectly unable to understand anything about feelings (the only one was Yuri Yudin and he had to go). We can be quite sure that Lyuda didn't say a word about the ordeal she overcame, and maybe that evening she thought she could allow herself a rest but of course refusing to give any explanation (the reason why the boys were "outraged" but only Zina might have understood). The note "Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner." can also have a double meaning : sorrow because of the conflict with the group but also the self isolation of the menstruating woman... hiding her tears but also trying to recover some comfort (maybe Thibeaux was not the only one wanting to "change his clothes").
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 06:42:48 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 
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May 09, 2022, 12:46:48 AM
Reply #33
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Charles


And how did Dyatlov behave during and after Jan. 30 evening argument ?

January 30 (Group's diary) FIRST ENTRY:

Diary is written in the cold on the go.
Today is a third cold night on the bank of Auspiya river. We are getting used to it. The stove does a great job. Some of us (Thibeaux and Krivonischenko) think we need to build steam heat in the tent. The curtains in the tent are quite justified. We get up at 8:30am. After breakfast we walk along the Auspiya river, but the ice again doesn't allow us to move forward. We went on the bank on a sledge-deer trail. In the middle of the road the saw Mansi shed. Yes, Mansi, Mansi, Mansi. This word comes up more and more often in our conversations. Mansi are people of the North. Small Khanti-Mansi nation located in Salehard with 8 thousand population. Very interesting and unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region. They have a written language, and leave characteristic signs on forest trees.


Not signed but probably written by Zina, as she previously wrote «  snow, snow, snow, snow on the banks frozen river snow snow » and « Hello, hello! ». Also « Diary is written in the cold on the go. Today is a third cold night on the bank of Auspiya river  » and we can read  « We go on Auspiya cold. » in Zina’s private diary.

Zina did not finish to write the events of the day in Group’s diary and in her private diary, the text is short and is the last entry. She stopped writing after the clash of Jan. 30 evening. Lyuda stopped after that day, but Zina too.

Then Dyatlov began to rewrite the events of that day:

January 30 (Group's diary) SECOND ENTRY:

Weather: temperature in the morning - 17 С
day - 13 С
night - 26 С.
The wind is strong, south-west, snow begins to fall, heavy clouds, drop in temperature. The temperature is normal for Northern Urals.
This is a story about the forest. Mansi signs tell about animals they saw, resting stops and other things. It is particularly interesting to solve its meaning for the hikers as well as historians.
Deer trail turns into а trodden path, and then ends. To go without a trail is very hard, snow is 120 cm deep. The forest gradually thins and trees get smaller. You can feel the altitude. Lots of dwarf birches and pines. It is impossible to walk on the river. It is not completely frozen, there is ice and water under the snow. We have to go back on the bank of the river. The day is over and we have to find a place for bivouac. That's the stop for the night. Strong west wind. It blows the snows off the cedar and pine trees, creating the impression of a snow fall.
As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep.


Not signed but very probably DYATLOV  as on Jan. 30 « snow is 120 cm deep » and then on Jan. 31  « snow 1.2-2 m deep. » And same factual style. Dyatlov didn't write in Group's diary before Jan. 30, he began on Jan. 30 and was the last to write...

On Jan. 31, Dyatlov kept on writing Group’s diary:

January 30 (Group's diary)

Weather today is a bit worse – wind (west), snowing (probably from the pines), since the sky is perfectly clear.
Started relatively early (around 10 am). Got back on the Mansi trail. (Up to now we are following a Mansi trail on which not so long passed a hunter with deer.)
Yesterday it seems we stumbled upon his resting stop. Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself, we are following in his steps.
Had a surprisingly good overnight, air is warm and dry, though it’s -18°C to -24°C. Walking is especially hard today. We can't see the trail, have to grope our way through at times. Can’t do more than 1.5-2 km per hour. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.


(Signed DYATLOV)

But there is the Unknown diary :

January 30

In the morning it was 17° now it is getting colder."Volunteers" (S. Kolevatov and K. Tibo are repeating their duties as a punishment for slowing the group yesterday) took a long time to start a fire. In the evening it was decided that we will leave the tent exactly 8 minutes after waking up. Therefore, all have been awake and waiting for the command. But it is useless. Around 9:30 in the morning we began slowly to rise. Nick T. is joking about something in the morning. Everyone is reluctant to get up.
And the weather! In contrast to the rest of the warm days - today is a sunny cold day. The sun appears playful.
Today as yesterday were are following the path of Mansi. Sometimes Mansi writings appear on trees. In general, all sorts of obscure mysterious characters. There is slogan for ​​our campaign, "In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place. Here the trail takes us to the shores of the river. We lose track. In the future, the trail follows the left bank of Auspii river, but the team of deer crossed the river and we are going through the woods. At the first opportunity we will turn back to the river. As it is easier to follow it. At approximately 2 pm we stop for a lunch. Dried meat, guest crackers, sugar, garlic, coffee, stocked in the morning - that's our lunch.
Good mood.
A couple more hours - and we will stop at 5pm for the night. We have been looking for a place, then we returned about 200 meters back. Charming place. Deadwood, high pines, in short, everything you need for a good night.

2.

Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. Nick Tibo changed his clothes. He began to write a diary. The law is that until all the work is done, do not approach the fire. And so they had a long argument, of who will sew the tent. Finally K. Tibo gave up and took a needle. Lyuda remained seated. And we sewed the hole (and there were so many that there was enough work for all except two attendants and Lyuda. Guys are terribly outraged.
Today is the birthday of Sasha Kolevatov *. Congratulations. We give him a tangerine, which he immediately divided into 8 pieces (Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner). So another day of our trek went well.


Dyatlov wrote : « Started relatively early (around 10 am). » but the truth was written by the unknown author « In the evening it was decided that we will leave the tent exactly 8 minutes after waking up. Therefore, all have been awake and waiting for the command. But it is useless. Around 9:30 in the morning we began slowly to rise. Nick T. is joking about something in the morning. Everyone is reluctant to get up. »

Dyatlov wrote : « As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep. » and « Had a surprisingly good overnight » but unknow author wrote the truth : « Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. (…) And so they had a long argument (…) Lyuda remained seated (…) except two attendants and Lyuda. (...) Guys are terribly outraged. (…) Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner. So another day of our trek went well. »

According to Dyatlov, reality was « warmed by the fire and go to sleep » and « good overnight » but Zina and Lyuda stopped writing their diaries after that sad day, and Thibeaux who received "punishment" began to write one and the author of the Unknown diary also. And none of the hikers wrote anything neither in their private diaries nor in Group’s diary after that day, except Dyatlov pretending that everything was alright... And we can doubt of the reality of "Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements" after having conceded "we’re exhausted" and " too tired to dig a fire pit"...

So Jan. 30 evening was really the beginning of the end and Dyatlov was trying to cover up the disaster. Jan. 30 was early compared with the length of the hike, but it was already the end of the stories and of the story... And there is the last known writing, the leaflet, probably written by Slobodin (or Zolotaryov or Krivonishenko but Slobodin more probably)... trying to repair the broken spirit of the group, creating couples, Thibeaux and Dubinina and Doroshenko and Kolmogorova, in the same headings and citing Kolevatov... like consolating the wounded (the mandolin was left in the labaz), drawing an image with the most important parts of the group, but ignoring the name of the leader. The author drawing a portrait of the group could have had fun of the leader, giving him a funny role, but no. So Jan. 30 was an end and this end came form the inside of the group. And whatever happened on Feb. 02, it was to a decomposing and weakening group.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 02:59:17 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 
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May 09, 2022, 03:20:33 PM
Reply #34
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

This is also interesting. I personally see some of it as speculation as we can't be clear as to the motives by others to what they write . However, again the lack of the diary entries do raise a question. Although the photos do show a lot of humour and joy within the group. 
 
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May 29, 2022, 03:20:49 PM
Reply #35
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Not enough evidence to say that Igor Dyatlov was a poor leader. Leadership can be challenging and that can also explain some moody moments.
DB
 

May 31, 2022, 02:34:44 PM
Reply #36
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Charles


Not enough evidence to say that Igor Dyatlov was a poor leader. Leadership can be challenging and that can also explain some moody moments.

Please, read the diaries.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

May 31, 2022, 03:07:09 PM
Reply #37
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Charles


Dear Ziljoe,

Although the photos do show a lot of humour and joy within the group.

Yes, but most of the photos are "posed". They are posed in the same sense as

« As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep. » and « Had a surprisingly good overnight »

is posed and diverges from

« Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. (…) And so they had a long argument (…) Lyuda remained seated (…) except two attendants and Lyuda. (...) Guys are terribly outraged. (…) Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner. So another day of our trek went well. »

which is reality.

For example, this photo is posed (unknown camera, frame N°3) :



And this one (unknown camera, frame N°4) is not :



You can zoom in and compare Zina's face on both of the photos... and even her right arm if you are interested in body language.

So material from the diaries and cameras has to be classified according to its meaning status. Words which have been crossed out in a diary have a different status, they don't have the same kind of meaning, they don't carry the same burden of meaning... Material does not have always the same depth of meaning, everything is not univocal...

Greetings

Charles
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

May 31, 2022, 03:54:43 PM
Reply #38
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Ziljoe


Dear Ziljoe,

Although the photos do show a lot of humour and joy within the group.

Yes, but most of the photos are "posed". They are posed in the same sense as

« As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep. » and « Had a surprisingly good overnight »

is posed and diverges from

« Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. (…) And so they had a long argument (…) Lyuda remained seated (…) except two attendants and Lyuda. (...) Guys are terribly outraged. (…) Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner. So another day of our trek went well. »

which is reality.

For example, this photo is posed (unknown camera, frame N°3) :



And this one (unknown camera, frame N°4) is not :



You can zoom in and compare Zina's face on both of the photos... and even her right arm if you are interested in body language.

So material from the diaries and cameras has to be classified according to its meaning status. Words which have been crossed out in a diary have a different status, they don't have the same kind of meaning, they don't carry the same burden of meaning... Material does not have always the same depth of meaning, everything is not univocal...

Greetings

Charles

Sorry Charles, I don't get your point from the photos.  A snap shot says nothing. What about the right arm?
 

May 31, 2022, 04:06:31 PM
Reply #39
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Ziljoe


Not enough evidence to say that Igor Dyatlov was a poor leader. Leadership can be challenging and that can also explain some moody moments.

Please, read the diaries.

I'm with sarapuk.
 

June 01, 2022, 05:53:26 AM
Reply #40
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Charles


A snap shot says nothing.
A snap shot says nothing but then a posed photo says less than nothing... and so we agree about the meaning of the smiles. wink1
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 01, 2022, 08:53:26 AM
Reply #41
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Ziljoe


A snap shot says nothing.
A snap shot says nothing but then a posed photo says less than nothing... and so we agree about the meaning of the smiles. wink1

I am asking about the right arm , what do think it means? It looks like she's reaching for her breast pocket.
 

June 01, 2022, 09:20:22 AM
Reply #42
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Charles


It looks like she's reaching for her breast pocket.

Yes, she's not posing in the second photo. You have two photos taken between a few seconds, maybe two or three minutes. The first is posed and Zina is smiling, the second is not posed and she is not smiling. That's all: it is better not to rely on posed photos to assess the moral of the group.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 01, 2022, 09:44:12 AM
Reply #43
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Ziljoe


It looks like she's reaching for her breast pocket.

Yes, she's not posing in the second photo. You have two photos taken between a few seconds, maybe two or three minutes. The first is posed and Zina is smiling, the second is not posed and she is not smiling. That's all: it is better not to rely on posed photos to assess the moral of the group.

But there were smiles that looked quite natural . Although they may assemble for an actual pose ,  I don't see anything to imply there was friction in the group. The diaries are written in a way that all will see. There would be little to write about , so any slight disagreement , the stove being too hot , or talk about love for example , would actually be note worthy to enter into the diary. There wouldn't be much to write about otherwise , let alone pass the time.

 
 

June 03, 2022, 01:29:25 PM
Reply #44
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Charles


Dear Ziljoe,

But there were smiles that looked quite natural . Although they may assemble for an actual pose ,  I don't see anything to imply there was friction in the group.

Of course some are natural, but other are posed, and most of the photos are posed. My point is only to underline that it is not possible to rely on the photos to assess the moral of the group (at least we have to distinguish posed and not posed photos). But seemingly, you would not like to do so... forgetting the absolute cruelty and brutality of the outcome. You don't deny this outcome, do you ? Because the end was a hell of fear, suffering, agony, despair and death... just to remind you.

The diaries are written in a way that all will see. There would be little to write about , so any slight disagreement , the stove being too hot , or talk about love for example , would actually be note worthy to enter into the diary. There wouldn't be much to write about otherwise , let alone pass the time.

So, the diaries are to be sent to the trash bin ? All right... They were walking to a horrible death, writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel, and so on, but all this material would be meaningless ? Why not ? Can we even say they died in the end or is it too much to state ?

Greetings

Charles
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 05:34:02 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 03, 2022, 04:14:26 PM
Reply #45
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Ziljoe


Dear Ziljoe,

But there were smiles that looked quite natural . Although they may assemble for an actual pose ,  I don't see anything to imply there was friction in the group.

Of course some are natural, but other are posed, and most of the photos are posed. My point is only to underline that it is not possible to rely on the photos to assess the moral of the group (at least we have to distinguish posed and not posed photos). But seemingly, you would like to do so... forgetting the absolute cruelty and brutality of the outcome. You don't deny this outcome, do you ? Because the end was a hell of fear, suffering, agony, despair and death... just to remind you.

The diaries are written in a way that all will see. There would be little to write about , so any slight disagreement , the stove being too hot , or talk about love for example , would actually be note worthy to enter into the diary. There wouldn't be much to write about otherwise , let alone pass the time.

So, the diaries are to be sent to the trash bin ? All right... They were walking to a horrible death, writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel, and so on, but all this material would be meaningless ? Why not ? Can we even say they died in the end or is it too much to state ?

Greetings

Charles



Hi Charles

Within the posed photos, there seems to be smiles that are not always easy to fake if someone is not happy. I don't see signs of fear or anxiety. I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to communicate
Cruelty and brutality is by the assumption that others caused the harm intentionally.
I am not in agreement  at the moment that this was the case.

As for the diaries , I haven't seen the word sex used? When they talk about love it may refer to marriage, dating, kissing and there hopes for the future happiness. I don't think this is an odd topic , having shared my life with groups of females and males, involving camping also ,amoungst other things, all simallar topics have come to discussion along with God , bigfoot , life and death for example , also people have fallouts, affection's for others and harbour a secret lust for others. Happens every day , we are human and their diary , to me , doesn't seem to imply anything too radical. I appreciate your in-depth look at the diaries though. I'm not sure of the emotive use of these words. (writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel,). Because it misses out the positives. It's like lumping all the broken bones together across the 9.

It is difficult to be neutral if  you have a preconceived idea of  what occurred to the dyatlov group. It's like making an assumption and trying to make the evidence fit.( That's not directed at you Charles).

Im not sure if you are implying they fought each other or it was outsiders? What your links to the diaries and outsiders is.

 

June 12, 2022, 11:58:27 AM
Reply #46
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Charles


Hello Ziljoe,

Sorry, I missed your post, please forgive my late answer.

I'm not sure of the emotive use of these words. (writing about desire, sex, envy, revolt, sadness, punishment, treason, temptation, frustration, jealousy, quarrel,). Because it misses out the positives.

In the hypothesis of an internal strife leading to the fatal outcome, any small trace of tension can have a meaning. When digging in the direction of internal strife, I collected all these traces and tried to understand how the could lead to the outcome. The positive is probably not very meaningful in the perspective of a collapse of the group. If the cause was not internal, then all these issues are just to be less strongly underlined, they just mean the group was not so united, not so strong.

It is difficult to be neutral if  you have a preconceived idea of  what occurred to the dyatlov group. It's like making an assumption and trying to make the evidence fit.( That's not directed at you Charles).

Of course but when exploring an hypothesis, it is legitimate to gather all relevant material.

Im not sure if you are implying they fought each other or it was outsiders? What your links to the diaries and outsiders is.

At first I thought it was possible they could have fought each other, now I think another hypothesis is more probable. In that hypothesis, the tourists were not perfectly innocent, they brought something which triggered a reaction and the outcome we know.

I explore now the possibility that they were ambushed by a small party of 5 loggers, who came from District 41, passed them by during the night at Northern 2, and rushed to the pass where to set up an ambush. Their murderers were beyond the tourists, and they were riding reindeers, they killed one reindeer of exhaustion. One of the loggers had to give up, the other four turned on the right, on Jan 30, crossed the Auspiya, and climbed to the pass, never leaving the forest, following the crest and turning around the eastern peak of the Pass. They are the ones who built the den, climbed in the cedar and lit the fire. The tourists were supposed to cross the pass and as reward ski down the slope right to the den. When at dawn on Feb. 2 they discovered the tent high on the slope and on their right, they had to send two of them, pretending to be hunters, waving hands as salute, to the two tourists who were already outside, then suddenly threatened the tourists and pushed them at gunpoint to the cedar. The had them seated by the fire and took them one by one to the den for the killing. Then three of the tourists tried to escape, two were at their limits and just agonized on the slope, Slobodin was finished off. Krivonishenko and Doroshenko were the last to die. The loggers avoided to use their guns and had to push their captives to the forest because the region was not at all a desert, it was full of Mansi people always passing, for hunting, for herding reindeers. When Mansi gave their testimonies, some said : "we were hunting and we did not hear any human voices"... When the rescuers took a plane to search for the tourists, they could only see track on the rivers, not in the forest. And one of the witnesses said that Mansi skis do not leave tracks (because they are much wider than Russian skis).  In the end, there was a little staging, not a lot, in order to fool the police. And they went back to District 41.

At first, I was and and am still convinced that the statement "There is slogan for ​​our campaign, "In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place. Here the trail takes us to the shores of the river. We lose track. In the future, the trail follows the left bank of Auspii river, but the team of deer crossed the river and we are going through the woods." was some kind of poetic statement but very true about their fate. At first I thought the signs they could not read were mainly about internal strife, but now I think these signs they could not read were those signs in the snow... they misinterpreted. For example "Deer trail turns into а trodden path, and then ends."... could mean either a single deer track joined a trodden path... or the path was trodden by a group... And when they wrote: "Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself..." it is absolutely mesmerizing... they stepped on the carcass of a dead reindeer and the "hunter" just went on his way straight to the mountains... I think they never directly saw the "hunter", they just assumed it was a lone Mansi, and couldn't really read the tracks...

I think there was group at District 41, the ones who were perfectly fluent in Mansi, who were on a strange process of enjoying freedom from the very special conditions offered by these extreme limits of civilization. These loggers hunted with Mansi (not with the older but the younger Mansi), they smuggled sable and gold, they had a kind of kingdom of their own in this thin layer of life beyond civilization. I think Kurikov knew the truth and try to express it in his own way when telling his story of the Five Ostyaks... "Kurikov said that near the holy mountain, where this mountain is located, he didn't say, there live five Ostyaks. They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people. They never come to Ivdel. And these Ostyaks could kill the hikers because they wanted to ascend the holy mountain or because they thought that hikers could kill their deer and moose, which they feed on." I think he was speaking about five loggers, who were not Russians (Soviets) anymore, and not Mansi despite of being perfectly fluent in Mansi and completely familiar with Mansi lifestyle. Kurikov gave in Mansi mythological tools a model of what happened (it was a myth just the same way Plato designed myths as theoretical models). And Kurikov was not very sure about the motive "because ... or because...", but superbly precise about the impossibility to give a definition of them either as Mansi or as Russians: "They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people"... In the end, the event is of the kind tourists killed by locals, the locals just not being the Mansi, but having integrated all the Mansi lifestyle and taiga culture (exact same profile as Egor Ivanovich Chagin but younger and with some anger in their hearts).

I wrote a draft of 28 pages developing this hypothesis, I would be happy to share it with you if I could produce a readable text in the end...

Greetings

Charles
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 12:30:29 PM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 12, 2022, 02:38:44 PM
Reply #47
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

I look forward to you finishing your hypothesis.

If it were outsiders , I would expect they had a gun to control the group. One of my   problems with  outsiders is the camera films being left . No one would know what was on them , so I would have expected them to be destroyed.

As for the signs.I always thought this was referring to the Mansi signs on the trees?

"In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place.


Many thanks

Ziljoe
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 02:57:37 PM by Ziljoe »
 
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June 12, 2022, 03:47:21 PM
Reply #48
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Charles


If it were outsiders , I would expect they had a gun to control the group.

Yes I agree.

One of my   problems with  outsiders is the camera films being left . No one would know what was on them , so I would have expected them to be destroyed.

Yes, you are right. So the locals were waiting for dawn and expecting to see the tourists skiing down from the pass right into their ambush but in the very last hours of the night they saw torches upside on the slope and they understood that the tourist were already on their side of the ridge. In the tent they did not sleep well because of the stove not in use and the cold, two of the tourists were already  outside the tent with torches and had a pee. Inside, Slobodin was awake and getting ready to exit, the others were not sleeping. That was the kind of night when you are impatient to begin the day, to eat, drink hot coffee, to move, go on... rather than to wait, awake, in a cold and moist blanket. Two or three of the locals climbed the slope and reached the tent, and at the cedar, the remaining one saw to lights of the torches moving in a frantic way, he understood the group was captured, he lit the fire. Then the captured tourists and locals came back. They stayed some time around the fire, and they began to take the first tourists, one by one, to the stream. And no time pull a camera and take photos in the dark.

As for the signs.I always thought this was referring to the Mansi signs on the trees?

Yes, the sentence refers to the Mansi signs on the trees, indeed. But I like the idea that these signs on the trees were not the most important to read, that they missed other signs which were also there and that they couldn't read either.

"In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place.

Yes I like a lot this sentence. But I like also the tragic that the letters which were the most important to be read were not written on the trees but in the snow... and that they were following these signs (tracks) without knowledge of their meaning and going down a path leading to the wrong place.

Greetings

Charles
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 04:09:47 PM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 13, 2022, 03:40:53 PM
Reply #49
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



              Reply #48
.....................................
              Reply #47
.....................................

I notice that Charles has now stopped supporting the unbelievable theory "that hikers took part in a fight between them".

So I will adopt Charles' idea - brilliant in its simplicity - that the fatal altercation took place not in the darkness, on February 1 from 8 PM, but in the daylight, on February 2 from 9 AM.

Thus, with a few modifications of moderate importance, my already obsolete TOKEB theory can be transformed into TOKEC (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - Charles).


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Answer for Ziljoe :
The question of Zotaryov's camera is unimportant, because it can be easily explained in various ways. For instance

           1° This camera was always attached to the collar of Zolotaryov's jacket.
           2° In full daylight, the attackers clearly saw that Zolotaryov did not have the opportunity to take a single compromising photo,
or else it is also the attackers who have unleashed themselves the 11 snapshots through a cloth using a slightly dirty lens.

   Star man : The Cameras ; December 30, 2018, 02:17:31 AM --->   Reply #22
First of all why did he [Zolotaryov] have it around his neck when he was found?  The only reasonable explanation is that he was already wearing it around his neck when he left the camp site and before whatever events started.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Now I summarize here some ideas which could be used to develop TOKEC.

    ••• Soviet officials (UPI Sports Club, Route Commision, PCSU....) have underestimated the hostile anti-Russian ambience in this region of the Urals (Vizhay, Ivdellag....) and have sent or let go the hikers, exemplary citizens, into a viper's nest (wolf's mouth).

Normally the hikers should not have stopped at District 41.
[We had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st.
we had to go to 2nd North, but it was getting dark and we decided to stop at the 41st. (Dubinina)

Loose}{Cannon :
 These hikers are in the communist party.  All devotion and complete commitment to the party is required to be a "good", communist, especially when your a young lad attending the communist state technical school where they were likely hand picked for a promising future in a high-tech industry like enriching plutonium and long distance communications....

    ••• The persistent cover-up by successive governments is simply explained by the need to hide the shameful incompetency of the KGB and other police forces.


    ••• Three categories of men had valid reasons to feel a fierce hatred against the Khrushchev regime.

     1° The house arresters who constituted a small part of the District 41 personnel.  The ones we do not see because they refused to appear on any pictures.
In the kind of sons of Polish officers massacred in Katyn.......

     2°   Among the locals there were peaceful Mansi tribes (Kurikov, Bahtiyarov, Anyamov). But
 
  Grigoriy Nikolaevich Kurikov: said that "near [a moutain not located]..... there live ... Ostyaks. They are like savages, they are not friends with Mansi or with Russian people............And these Ostyaks could kill the hikers because they thought that hikers could kill their deer and moose, which they feed on".

There were those who "leads anti-Soviet agitation among Mansi against the unification of Mansi into collective farms, against sedentarism, incites hatred among Russians and the existing Soviet system, claiming that the Russians bring only death to Mansi".

It is the predictable and inevitable clash of 2 irreconcilable civilizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism

     3° Former Stalinist guards of the Ivdellag (specialized in the pursuit and the elimination of the rare escapees from the camps before being reduced to unemployment by the dismantling of the Gulag) who were opposed to the Krushchev's Thaw (1953 or 56 -1664), (it is the "K" of TOKEC).


    ••• These 3 categories of people :
••   found themselves, willingly or unwillingly, constrained to live in the same vast territory: in the vicinity of Vizhay and Ivdellag
••   for many years.
The same hatred of the USSR or of the Degel logically joined their competences and their murderous determination.


    ••• The hikers, who thought they were living in the Soviet paradise, were not very clever in their diplomacy.
In Vizhay and even more so in District 41, the hikers were felt by some people as a provocation.
 Dubinina by intuition and perhaps also Zolotariov by his long experience were affected by it causing a dull concern and a psychological uneasiness.
     
    ••• The hikers had described and (too) much talked about their route to reach Ortoten through the Auspya valley.
But this valley is a bad route because there is a lot of soft snow in the taiga, which slows down the progress.
There are at least two other faster routes from Vizhay or North-2 to the slope of the Kholat Syakhl.

So the attackers (murderers) did not follow the hikers' trail in the Auspya valley.

    ••• Planning of the ambush in an isolated place (slope of Kholat Syakhl)
 Not in the taiga where there are too many trees.
The fire, the observation post on top of the Cedar, the 4 beds of branches were made and used by the attackers.

Thus the attackers saw the hikers set up the tent on the evening of February 1 and ascended from the Cedar to the tent on the morning of February 2 when it was daylight.


    ••• On the morning of February 2,  in daylight, i.e. when the effectiveness of a verbal gun threat is likely, some of the attackers visibly and amicably approached the tent
  With a single shotgun with all the required legal permits and powerful ammunition for hunting bear or elk.

[Nikolay Pavlovich Anyamov
Mansi had to register their weapons in Ivdel. Any other weapons would have been illegal, and the punishment was severe.


    ••• A friendly conversation starts with a hiker, for example with Tibo, who is well dressed outside of the tent.
....... and suddenly a warning shot and an imperative order addressed to the 8 other hikers still inside the tent
"Obey our orders strictly or we will kill your comrade".

"Get out of your tent immediately and go down slowly in ranks towards our camp at the foot of the Cedar where there is fire. Otherwise we will kill your comrade."
  "Be reasonable and all will be well", (another treachery).


    ••• Among the attackers, the hunter had the legal authorization to carry a hunting weapon.
The loggers, who were trained in the felling of trees with long-handled axes, obviously knew how to use the birch wood blunt objects wrapped in rags, with vigour and precision.


    ••• The desecration of the corpses of defeated enemies was often constated in history (Dehumanization,brutalization, revenge, throphy taking...). An example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead

The myth of small rodents choosing their dessert under the snow was invented not to scare children and sensitive souls......
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
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June 13, 2022, 07:36:48 PM
Reply #50
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Ziljoe


To Jean Daniel Reuss

My argument about the camera films is.
If any professional group of murderers or hit men were involved ,, taking care  into account, premeditation of the task at hand. They would not know if they had been photographed at anytime or beforehand at any location along the route.

Obviously I'm not a professional killer and I have no intention to be so neither vam I a unprofessional killer. .... But on both accounts I would destroy the camera films.  If any of this was staged, ogovernment or loggers , the first thing I would do is destroy the film's. This even goes to teddy and the potential of her theory.  A snapshot could have been taken at any time that showed the reason of the deaths. Whether that be several days in advance or otherwise.?
Why take the chance, ? .
 

June 14, 2022, 01:01:41 AM
Reply #51
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Charles


Hello Ziljoe

Quote
But on both accounts I would destroy the camera films.  If any of this was staged, government or loggers , the first thing I would do is destroy the film's.

Yes but removing the films was closing many doors, crossing out many trails, it was making easier the work of the police. If the hikers were murdered, one of the few tasks of the murderers was just not to remove anything. Removing the film was just aiming at the people met by the hikers in the previous days, it was writing the list of suspects. Because, yes, the police would understand that the murderers were on the films. That is to say the police knew that they could give up with all other possible trails, they already had the good one... And if removing the film, they had to remove the diaries too... Like signing the murder: To whom it may concern, we, the murderers, were met by these victims during their journey to this location: our faces were on their films, our names were in they diaries, we had to remove these evidences but talk to the people of Vizhay and District 41 to write down your list of suspects, you will read our names on it. Greetings.

I think one of the most essential aspects of the case is the nature of space. What is the open ? What is the closure ? What is a place ? In a city, there are streets, stairs, apartments, in the countryside, there are villages, roads, fields... but here, it is very different, it is the open... The Soviets numbered the settlements: District 41, Northern 2, etc. in a sort of attempt to rationalize space (but just idealizing in the end)... But in was a very strange place, mixing the open and a trend for humans to agglomerate (see the loggers on the stairs, the hikers in the truck, etc.), prison camps were built there (and "inmates" stayed after the guards left), but Mansi were semi-nomadic, Soviets became semi-nomadic: building a settlement like Northern 2 and then abandoning it, loggers were outcasts... it was temporary agglomeration and then expansion... nothing everlasting, snow hosting then covering any meaningful signs...

When not removing anything from the scene, hypothetical murderers left the police facing this "open"... and we can't close the case, it's like if the case resisted the "closure" like the space of the Urals (both geographical and sociological) resisted any idea of "closure". Like an "unknown compelling force" both agglomerating the loggers on the stairs and slowly expanding the nails and the boards of the barracks of Northern 2 to rust and dust...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 03:11:09 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 14, 2022, 02:51:38 AM
Reply #52
Offline

Charles


Hello Jean Daniel

So the attackers (murderers) did not follow the hikers' trail in the Auspya valley.

I think the attackers were beyond the hikers. In the morning of Jan. 28, when the hikers woke up at Northern 2, they were already behind their attackers.

in an isolated place (slope of Kholat Syakhl)

I think it was important that the ambush took place on the northern side of the Pass, because in meant "other territory"... The other side of the pass has a meaning: "Pavel Bahtiyarov said to me that if the hikers perish, it must have happened on the other side of the Ural mountain range"... other side of the range, other side of the ridge, means other people concern, not of our concern...

Not in the taiga where there are too many trees.

The northern slope, once they passed the ridge, is like a reward for the skiers, after the harsh climb. It is a beautiful and gentle slope, an irresistible slope, the nordic skiers could ski in alpine style, and it ended precisely, between the two streams, at the cedar... like a trap (a natural "desert kite"). I think the attackers expected to see the hikers pass the ridge and ski right to them. But there was a delay and the hikers climbed on a higher ground, and set camp on the slope. The attackers expected to face the arrival of the hikers, they had to turn and aim to their right.

Setting up the ambush downslope was good tactics because the hikers had to climb back to escape. And maybe the hikers were even told  they had a beautiful slope to ski after the pass. After climbing to the pass, when you ski the gentle slope, if you want to enjoy the longest run, you finish at the cedar...

The fire, the observation post on top of the Cedar, the 4 beds of branches were made and used by the attackers.

I think so. And I think the reindeers of the attackers were left at the chum, as according to a testimony, the snow had been moved by several reindeers: "At one kilometer from the the tent of the hikers we found Mansi stand where they herded the deer". I think the Russian rescuers misinterpreted the freshness of the tracks.

Loggers knew how to ride reindeers and sledges, Ognev: "He worked in cooperation as the head of the site in the village of Khurumpaul from the Berezovsky district industrial complex (he drove limestone stones on a reindeer sled along the winter road from a lime quarry to the Yatriya River for firing to lime)." Ognev made a 250 km journey on sledge, alone with a dead woman: "in 1961 he drove the murdered cook of the party from Man-Nyais to Ivdel on a reindeer team and buried her there".

The start of my theory (I claim its paternity unless somebody already described loggers from district 41 riding sleds and driving reindeers) is the possibility that loggers could ride reindeers as opened by Yudin's statement: "they ride all kind of".

The soviets wanted to create a "New Man", but in the Urals was also created a new type of man: the result of melting political and criminal, guard and inmate, tormentor and victim, Russian and Mansi, modern and archaic, sedentary and nomadic, truck and reindeer, rifle and crossbow...

Thus the attackers saw the hikers set up the tent on the evening of February 1 and ascended from the Cedar to the tent on the morning of February 2 when it was daylight.

I think the impatience of the hikers to end the unpleasant night without stove, in moist and cold, forced the attackers to act before dawn. I think the event took place in the very last minutes of the night, when they still had to use torches for light, just minutes before the sky clear up at the horizon in the east. Maybe the attackers discovered at the last moment that the hikers' tent was on the slope on their right... maybe they were still expecting to harvest the hikers in the morning, at the end of their alpine ride from the pass, and were alerted at some time with the torches.

The action began at the very end of the night and ended at dawn in early morning, maybe before sunrise.

  With a single shotgun with all the required legal permits and powerful ammunition for hunting bear or elk.(...) Any other weapons would have been illegal, and the punishment was severe.

I think they didn't really care about licenses and legal permits:

"He turned out to be a hunter, but his gun broke. And shows me his TOZ-34. I look - for sure, the butt is hanging. I say: let me give you my gun (I had a German Sauer), and you give me your broken gun and dog. He had very good dogs. Looking ahead, I’ll say that later we went with the dog hunting moose and bear. It was a great dog! So we did the exchange."

"The TOZ-34 shotgun was confiscated as an evidence on a criminal case in Verhotursk, and it is now disappeared without a trace."

Maybe all attackers had guns, with or without license.

Greetings


« Last Edit: June 15, 2022, 04:46:34 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 

June 18, 2022, 01:36:21 PM
Reply #53
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



The DPI can be compared to a huge jigsaw puzzle in which the pieces are made up of the documents at our disposal.

Everything has to fit together to build the most plausible, most coherent and most complete theory possible.

Maya Piskareva   --->
«.....But, alas, we learn the truth either from the state, or when we find ourselves in another world, where there are no diseases, sorrows and sighing ... In the meantime, it remains to intellectually entertain ourselves with a game of investigation.....»

Taking advantage of Charles' new ideas, I am transforming my TOKEB theory into TOKEC (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - Charles).



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Some brief insights into TOKEC

No staging and most of the materials are true.

Hostage taking, with death threats against one of the 9 hikers, in daylight, on the morning of 2 February, to explain the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar.

Presence in the vicinity of the Ivdellag of a group of men animated by a hatred and a murderous rage, the reasons for which can be explained by the history of the dismantling of the Gulag during the Thaw.

(By convention of language I continue to call them "attackers" ).

For the attackers the 9 hikers appeared to be propagandists directed by the PCSU via the Sports Committee and the Road Commission and were therefore enemies.



              Reply #50
If .........murderers....... They would not know if they had been photographed at anytime or beforehand at any location along the route.....
... I would destroy the camera films..............................
... the first thing I would do is destroy the film's......................

         1°   
The case of the cameras that were left in the tent.

The attackers were pretty sure that there was nothing compromising in the cameras inside the tent.

Nobody wants to be seen next to their own enemies in a photograph !

The people in Vizhay (26 January) and the workers from District 41 (27 January) who appear in these photos have no hostile intentions towards the hikers



At these events, the attackers did not want to be photographed and moved away.
 

         2°   
The decision for the massacre was taken after Yuri Yudin returned to District 41, i.e. on the evening of 28 January 1959.
Yuri confirmed the route of the (now 9) hikers (through the Auspiya valley) and the attackers departed on 29 January or perhaps only on 30 January.

The attackers did not follow the tracks of the hihers in the Auspiya valley because they knew the faster route which is the route of the Unknown expedition.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-Auspiya-map-routes-cropped-thumb.jpg

The attackers set up camp at the foot of the cedar tree on 1 February. A little before the hikers set up their tent higher up the slope of Kholat Syakhl (the attackers' interception of the hikers could have failed).


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

The case of the camera which is carried by Zoloraryov.

         1°   
You reason logically like a person who, at least I assume it, writes calmly on his computer keyboard.

But at the end of a risky, physically exhausting and extremely stressful operation, the attackers did not notice the unexpected presence of this camera.
(The psychological phenomenon that sometimes we only see what we are looking for).

         2°   
• While fighting on the Eastern Front, Zolotaryov had felt the advantage of having a weapon instantly available.
• Returning to a peaceful, touristy civilian life, Zolotaryov had developed the habit of attaching his camera to his jacket in an often inconspicuous way.
Often wild animals (elk, wolverine, bear) appear and then disappear quickly and it is useful to always be ready (to trigger the camera).
• Which is perhaps another reason why Zolotaryov's camera was simply not noticed by the attackers.

(cf. the close-ups of Gorojanin).
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.