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December 02, 2017, 06:45:29 PM
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Loose}{Cannon

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Aparently the original no longer exists, so no picscry2



23, 1959.

So, back on the trip! Now we are sitting in a 531 room, or rather, of course, we are not sitting, and all feverishly stuff in their backpacks all sorts of oatmeal, cans, stew. The clerk stands and looks to see everyone coming in.

"Where are my pims?" Yu.K. In the tram in the mandolin will play?
- Of course! Salt is forgotten! - 3 kg.
Igor! Where are you? - Where is Doroshenko, why does not he take 20 packs? Give 15 copecks. call! Bezmen, besmen where? Do not wear out, damn! Knife from whom?
It will fit in, it will fit in, too.
"Yura, take this to the station."

Slava Hamzov came (an error in the document, should be Khalizov - in 1096).
Hi Hi! Give 15 copecks!

Luda considers money, big money. The room is an artistic mess.
And here we are on the train. There are a lot of transcriptions, many songs, new ones have been learned, and everyone is moving to places already at 3 o'clock in the morning. I wonder what awaits us in this campaign? What will be new? Yes, the boys today solemnly swore not to smoke the whole trip. I wonder how much they have the willpower, can they manage without cigarettes? All are laid down to sleep, and the Ural taiga stands outside the windows.

Z. Kolmagorov

January 24.

7.00. We arrived in Serov. We traveled with Blinov's group. They have Olva for hunting and other supplies. The station was met with horror as hospitable: they did not let in the room, and the policeman pricked up his ears; in the city everything is calm, no crimes and violations, as under communism; and then Y. Krivo wrapped the song, he was seized and taken away at once.
Noting for the memory of Mr. Krivonischenko, the sergeant gave an explanation that paragraph 3 of the rules int. The order at the stations forbids violating the peace of passengers. This is probably the first station where songs are banned and where we were sitting without them.

Sheet 22
-2-

Finally settled until the evening () (blank brackets in the original - in 1096). We go to Ivdel from Serov at 6.30 in the school () (so! -1096) next to the station. Very warmly received. The landlady (she is also a cleaning lady) warmed us up with water, provided everything she could and what we needed to prepare for the trip.
Free all day. I want to go to the city, for example, in the local history museum and on an excursion to the met.zavod, but much work with the distribution of equipment and its preparation.
12-2.00. Between the 1 st and 2 nd shifts, a meeting was organized with the students. Filled them so much, so many and all such curious.
Zolotarev: "Children, now we will tell you ... Tourism happens, it gives an opportunity ..." Everyone is sitting, silent, afraid.
Z. Kolmogorova: "Tra-ta-ta-ta, as you here call, where were you, uh, our fellows and lived in tents! ... and went, and went ... The

questions were no end. I had to show and explain every little thing from the flashlight to the tent. The guys took 2 hours, they did not want to let us go. They sang songs to each other. The entire school saw us off at the station. The case ended when, when we left, the children roared and shouted, asked Zina to stay with them and be their leader, they would all listen to her and study well.
In the car some young alcoholic demanded from us half a liter and stated that we pulled it from his pocket. The story ended again, the second time that day, by the intervention of a policeman.

Dispute-talk about love on the provocation of Z. Kolmogorova. Songs, audit, Dubinin under the seat, garlic with bread without water, and we arrived at Ivdel at about 12.00.

Great waiting room. Complete freedom of action. In turn, they were on duty all night. The bus for Vizhay will be released early in the morning.
Yudin

List
23-3-
January 25, 1959.
We got up at half past five, quickly gathered and left for the city of Ivdel with the first bus. After an hour of waiting, we managed to grab a bus (such as GAZ-51). The twenty-five-seater bus was forced to accommodate a full twenty-five plus twenty backpacks packed to capacity and as many pairs of skis. We were full up to the ceiling. First layer passengers sat on the seats, on a pile of skis, on backpacks. Second layer passengers sat on the backs of the seats, finding a place for legs on the shoulders of comrades. It was not so tight, however, as not to sing, so we did it almost all the way to Vizhay.
The trip was not uneventful. The bus made a small detour away from the highway, in the village of Shipichnoe, and we were given the chance to step out, which we did with pleasure. Four of the most agile went far ahead to the settlement of Talitsa to see the power station. Suddenly the heard: "The bus." We rush out the door, but, alas, it was too late. The bus passed by and we were forced to chance after it as fast as we can, hoping fate would be merciful and, perhaps, we would catch up with it (I am part of the "agile" four). However, the first hundred meters clearly demonstrated the advantages of a fifty horse power engine. Our heels flashed far behind the bus, and the gap widened. The prospect to walk about thirty kilometers on the highway with no breakfast and lunch already seemed quite real, when suddenly ... I mentioned that fate is merciful. The mercy came in the form of a girl going to Vizhay that hailed the bus and stopped the object of our persecution. A minute later we were already safely sitting on the second floor of the seats and traveling to Vizhay. We arrived in Vizhay about two pm. It turned out that we can continue our automobile journey in the next morning. 
Warmly said goodbye to Blinov's group, who went further (to the west of Vizhay in the deep forest area). After dinner, which was held in a warm "friendly atmosphere," we moved to the "hotel", which was the usual hut with three windows. We went to the cinema, leaving "home" Doroshenko and Kolevatov. We watched the "Golden Symphony", came back in "musical mood". Now we are busy getting ready the equipment. Tonight, according to the local commandant, we will leave on.
Kolevatov.

24 were
-4-
26.0I.59g.
We slept in the so-called. "Hotel" Who is on beds for 2 people, and Sasha K. and Yura Krivo even on the floor between the beds. We went up at 9 o'clock in the morning. They slept well, in spite of the fact that they did not close the bolt in the evening and a little bit by the morning.
On the street -17 ° C.
To cook in the morning did not become, wood raw, in the evening while cooked hours 6 passed. Breakfast went to the dining room (so - in 1096) entrenched goulash "on-stolovski" and tea.
When the cold tea was served, Gosya Dyatlov uttered with grins: "If the tea is cold, then go out and drink it on the street - it will be hotter." An original thought. We agreed and go to 41 sites by car.
We left only at 13-10, and in 41-m were about 16-30. Went great, drove to GAZ-63 upstairs.
While riding, singing songs, discussed on various topics from the topic of love and friendship, to the problems of cancer and their cure.
On the 41st we were met with pleasantness, we took a separate room in the hostel. We talked for a long time about all sorts of differences with local workers, one of them was especially remembered by a red-bearded "Beard", as his comrades call it.
We cooked lunch on duty, we ate and now rest, divided into two halves - part went to the next room to watch movies, another part sits on backpacks, who does what. Rustic plays the mandolin and talks to Kolya at the same time, the girls are sitting rewriting the songs, and I'm going to adjust the equipment now.
Krivonischenko.

26.I.59 g.
I can not, although I tried       
Kolya Tibo
Liszt 25
-5-
27.I.59 The
weather was good, the wind had to blow in the back along the way. The guys agreed that before the 2nd North the ryuki would take the horse. From the 41st to 24 km. We helped Grandfather Slava unload the hay and wait for the horse (she left behind the hay, wood). Waited up to 4 hours.
The guys started to play songs. One guy sang beautifully. Heard a number of songs of prohibited prison (58 article). Ognev told Igor how to find a hut in which you can spend the night. At 4 o'clock we started.
Pre-bought four loaves of bread. Soft warm bread. 2 pieces ate.
The horse is slow. How nice to go without backpacks.
We went for 2 hours 8 km. (the Ushma River).
It's getting dark already. All the delay because of the horse. Yura Yudin is traveling with us. He suddenly fell ill and can not go on a campaign. There he decided to get stones for the institute.
The 2nd North is an abandoned geological village of 20-25 houses. One is only suitable for housing. Late at night, in the darkness of the village they found a settlement and only on the ice hole guessed where the hut was. A bonfire burned out of the boards. I started to smoke the stove. Several people pierced their nails. All is well. So the horse came up. And after dinner in a hotly heated hut on the beds rushed jokes until 3 o'clock in the morning.
DOROSHENKO

Sheet 26
-6-
January 28
Morning woke up all the droning tones of Jyrki Kri and Sasha Kolevatov. The weather is still decreasing for us, for -8 °.
After breakfast, some of the children, led by Yura Yudin, our famous geologist, went to the core storage, hoping to collect some materials for the collection. Nothing except pyrite and veins of quartz in the rock there was not. They gathered for a long time: they smeared skis, adjusted the mounts Yurka Yudin today leaves home. It's a pity, of course, to part with him, especially Zina and me, but there's nothing to be done.
We left at 11-45. We go up along the river Lozva. Each torit trail for 10 minutes. The depth of snow this year is much less than in the past. Chsto has to stop and scrape off the wet snow from the skis, because there are still such unfrozen places. Yuri Cree goes behind and makes a crook of the route. The banks of the river in the region of the 2nd North are rocky, especially the right bank, then the rocks (folded from limestone) are only caught in places and eventually the banks become shallow, completely covered with forest.
We rise on a halt at 5-30 on the bank of Lozvy. Today is our first night in a tent. The guys are fumbling with the stove, sewing a canopy from the sheet. After doing something and not doing something, we sit down to supper. After dinner, we sit around the campfire for a long time, singing sincere songs. Zina is even trying to learn the mandolin under the direction of our main musician Rusimka (that's how! -1096). Then, again and again, the discussion resumes, with all our discussions that have been over this time, mainly about love. Someone comes to mind stenografirovat all our statements or to get on this account a special notebook. After talking, we crawl into the tent. The hanging stove is hot and divides the tent into two compartments. In the far compartment is Zina and me. Nobody wants to sleep near the stove and decided to put Yurka Kri there (on the other hand there is Sasha Kolevatov on duty). Yurka, after lying down for about two minutes, does not stand up and moves to the second compartment, while scoring curses and accusing us of betrayal. After that, they could not fall asleep for a long time, they were arguing about something, but finally everything was quiet.
29.I.59. The second day, when we go skiing. We went from spending the night on Lozva to spending the night on the river. Auspia. We walked along the Mansi trail. The weather is good. -13. The wind is weak. Often on Lozve we meet naledi. All.
Kolya Thibaut.
Sheet 27
-7-

January 30, 1959. The

diary is written on the way, in the frost, on the run.

Today is the third cold night on the shore of Auspia. We begin to be drawn in. The stove is a great thing. Some (Thibaut and Krivonischenko) are thinking of constructing steam heating in a tent. The canopy - hanging sheets justify. Rise at 8.30. After breakfast we go along the river Auspia, but again these ice sheets do not allow us to move forward. We went along the sledge-deer trail. In the middle of the way we met the parking lot of Mansi. Yes, Muncie, Muncie, Muncie. This word is found in our conversation more and more. Mansi is the people of the north. Malontational Khanty-Mansiyskiy n. with the center of Salihard - 8 thousand people. Very interesting and peculiar people inhabiting the Northern Zaular Ural, closer to the Tyumen region. They have a written language, their own language, and what is characteristic and of particular interest are forest serifs and special badges.

30.01.59

Weather: temperature in the morning 17 With the

day - 13 With the

evening of 26 C. The

wind is strong, south-west, snow is falling, clouds are thick, sharp drop. The temperature is typical of the Northern Urals.

This is a kind of forest story. These icons indicate the seen animals, the parking lots, various signs, and read or unravel them is of particular interest to both the tourist and historians.

The reindeer's trail is over, the path has begun, and then it is over. The virgin lands were very difficult to walk, snow up to 120 cm deep. The forest is gradually thinning, the height is felt, the birches and pines are dwarfish and ugly. It's impossible to walk along the river - it did not freeze, and under the snow, water and ice, immediately on the track, we go again by the shore. The day is slipping towards evening, we need to look for a place for bivzak. Here is the stop for the night. The wind is strong west, knocking snow off the cedar and pine trees, creating the impression of a snowfall.
As always, we quickly build a fire and put the tent on the berger. Went warm by the fire and went to sleep.

Leaf 28
-8-
January 31, 1959

Today, the weather is slightly worse - the wind (western), snow (apparently, with oil) for the sky is absolutely clean.

We left relatively early (about 10 am). We go along the beaten Mansi ski trail. (So ​​far we walked along the Mansi trail, on which a hunter drove a deer for a very long time.)

Yesterday we met, apparently, his overnight stay, the deer did not go any further, the hunter himself did not go along the notches of the old path, in his wake we are going now .

Today was a surprisingly good overnight stay, warm and dry, despite the low temperature (-18 ° -24 °). Today it is especially difficult to go today. The trace is not visible, we often get off it or go groping. Thus we pass 1.5-2 km per hour.

We are developing new methods for more productive walking. The first drops the backpack and goes 5 minutes, then returns, rests for 10-15 minutes, after catching up with the rest of the group. Thus was born the non-stop way of laying skis. Especially hard for this second, who goes on a ski track, torenoi first, with a backpack. Gradually separated from Auspia, the rise is continuous, but quite smooth. And then the firs came to an end, a rare birch-tree went. We went to the forest border. The wind is western, warm piercing, the wind speed is similar to the air speed when the plane is rising. Nast, naked places. About the device lobaza even think not to. About 4 hours. It is necessary to choose a lodging for the night. We descend to the south - to the valley of Auspia. This is probably the most snowfall place. The wind is small in snow 1.2-2 m thick. Tired, exhausted, set to work overnight. A few firewood. Sliced ​​raw spruce. Bonfire bred on logs, reluctant to dig a hole. We dine right in the tent. Heat. It is difficult to imagine a similar coziness somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing howling wind, a hundred kilometers from populated areas.
DYATLOV.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 01:57:43 AM by Teddy »
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

January 31, 2021, 01:22:39 PM
Reply #1
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Missi


Quote
Today, the weather is slightly worse - the wind (western), snow (apparently, with oil) for the sky is absolutely clean.

Has anyone an idea, what "snow (apparently, with oil)" might mean? Is it some kind of phase I'm unfamiliar with? Is it a typo? Is it still a mystery?
 

January 31, 2021, 03:52:59 PM
Reply #2
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Thomas


Quote
Today, the weather is slightly worse - the wind (western), snow (apparently, with oil) for the sky is absolutely clean.

Has anyone an idea, what "snow (apparently, with oil)" might mean? Is it some kind of phase I'm unfamiliar with? Is it a typo? Is it still a mystery?

Rutschiger Schnee. I understand a little bit Russian and little more English. Also i think, that is a phrase for slippery snow. I hope that slipery the correct word is.
 

January 31, 2021, 06:02:18 PM
Reply #3
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
Today, the weather is slightly worse - the wind (western), snow (apparently, with oil) for the sky is absolutely clean.

Has anyone an idea, what "snow (apparently, with oil)" might mean? Is it some kind of phase I'm unfamiliar with? Is it a typo? Is it still a mystery?

Apparently there was snow blowing off the Pine trees giving the impression of a snow fall. There wasnt a snow fall at that time because the sky was clear.
DB
 

January 31, 2021, 06:04:31 PM
Reply #4
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Thomas


I have just read the Diary in Russian and if i understand correctly, it said: Today the Weather is little worse, Wind (western), Snow (obviously it is on Pine trees)[that probably means that is not snowing] so the Sky is completely clear
 

January 31, 2021, 06:29:34 PM
Reply #5
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I have just read the Diary in Russian and if i understand correctly, it said: Today the Weather is little worse, Wind (western), Snow (obviously it is on Pine trees)[that probably means that is not snowing] so the Sky is completely clear

Correct
DB
 

February 01, 2021, 03:35:03 AM
Reply #6
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Missi


Thanks.
I did understand that the snow was probably being blown from the trees. I just couldn't make any sense of the oil and was wondering whether the snow might have been "contaminated" with an unknown substance.
Now that's a moment I wish I would understand Russian.
 

February 01, 2021, 09:59:36 AM
Reply #7
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RMK


Missi, I believe the translation of the Dyatlov group diary in the OP of this thread was machine-translated.  For comparison, you can also read the group diary here, human-translated (by Teddy?) into English.
 

February 01, 2021, 11:27:00 AM
Reply #8
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Missi


I was not sure, which was the most recently updated one, as in approved as most correct... excuseme
 

February 01, 2021, 01:41:04 PM
Reply #9
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RMK


I was not sure, which was the most recently updated one, as in approved as most correct... excuseme
I'm definitely inclined to trust the human-translation over the machine-translation here.  The human-translation's English sounds more natural, for one thing.
 

June 11, 2021, 01:35:12 PM
Reply #10
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WinterLeia


When I look at the group journal, it suggests to me they were taking turns. Everyone just wrote one entry except for Tibo, and considering his first entry was one line it doesn’t require too much imagination to think that maybe the group told him he needed to do another entry and put something more substantial in it this time. In addition, it would explain his comment about “witless writing”. If that is the case, then Zolortaryov could have been the one that wrote the first entry for 1/30, the one that begins with it stating that the entry was written on the go. I think there’s a picture for 1/30 that shows Zolortaryov and Zina writing in diaries while stopping for a rest or to study the Mansi signs. Of course, Zina would be writing in her own diary. Zolortaryov could be writing in the group diary, however, and the entry does specifically mention Mansi signs, which seems to have captivated everyone’s attention in that series of photographs.

Oddly, January 30 is the only day that has two entries. The second entry seems to have been written just as they were ready to go to sleep that night. If my theory is correct, this would either be a second entry by Zolortaryov, and why would he add a second entry with the same date? Or it could be Slobodin since he was the only one who hadn’t written an entry in the group diary except Dyatlov who puts an entry in the next day. Did Slobodin or whoever it was just not realize that there was already an entry there for that day?
 

February 18, 2022, 09:07:41 PM
Reply #11
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GlennM


It is clear to me that the group was wearing down. Conditions were worse than expected and as fatigue set in, it brought out the worst in temperament. When in a good mood, they watched romantic movies, had discussions about love, which sounds a bit repressed, because they couldn't do anything about it. I recall the Chinese idiogram for the word "trouble" is two women under one roof.  Bickering and unrest in the tent according to log entries. Each subsequent day, more tired from lack of proper rest and fatigue from exertion. Then comes a spontaneous change in plans. They lose a day, make a cache and then attain the Lovsa. They remain at elevation, pitching a tent with the understanding they won't have a fire.   Although these were experienced hikers, I am reminded that for most of the expedition, they took rides. Only at the end did they walk and ski. I am reminded that though they were in a hiking club, they all actually had sedentary indoor jobs. Were they weekend warriors? Certainly they were no match for the well adapted Mansi who lived and worked there. None of this explains why they left the tent on 1079, either through the front flap, or a side slit poorly clothed for a 45 minute trek to the woods below, never to return. That part simply makes no sense whether the group was of the same mind or not. Cold makes you mean, then stupid. So does  hunger. So does pettyness.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 29, 2024, 12:05:37 PM
Reply #12
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GreenRain


Quote from: Group diary
heavy clouds
Quote from: Zina Kolmogorova handwritten diary
There was sun in the morning
Quote from: Typewritten copy of Kolmogorova diary from case files
today is a sunny cold day. The sun appears playful.
So the information about the weather on 30.01.1959 in group diary differs from the information in two other diaries.
It is strange.
 

February 29, 2024, 12:14:12 PM
Reply #13
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GreenRain


Quote from: Group diary, 30.01.1959
Mansi are people of the North. Small Khanti-Mansi nation located in Salehard with 8 thousand population. Very interesting and unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region.
The style of these sentences is strange.
This text seems to be from encyclopedia or textbook, not from "written in the cold on the go" hiker's diary.

In other words, a hiker usually describes in his diary what he see and what he do during his trip.
Dyatlov group didn't visit Salehard and didn't calculate number of Mansi. Such information can only be extracted from books, but Dyatlov group had not any books in their trip.
This is strange for me.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 03:55:29 AM by GreenRain »
 

February 29, 2024, 02:43:46 PM
Reply #14
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Ziljoe


.
Quote from: Group diary, 30.01.1959
Mansi are people of the North. Small Khanti-Mansi nation located in Salehard with 8 thousand population. Very interesting and unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region.
The style of these sentences is strange.
This text seems to be from encyclopedia or textbook, not from "written in the cold on the go" hiker's diary
Quote from: Group diary, 30.01.1959
Mansi are people of the North. Small Khanti-Mansi nation located in Salehard with 8 thousand population. Very interesting and unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region.
The style of these sentences is strange.
This text seems to be from encyclopedia or textbook, not from "written in the cold on the go" hiker's diary


Yes, Mansi, Mansi, Mansi. This word comes up more and more in our conversation. Mansi people of the north. Low-nationality Khanty-Mansiysk district. with the center of Salekhard 8 thousand people. A very interesting and unique people inhabiting the Northern Polar Urals, closer to the Tyumen region. They have a written language, their own language, and, characteristically, forest notches and special icons are of particular interest.

Some of the confusion seems to be translation. Below are two translation's of what I think this is about the same event.  from the Dyatlov pass website.

This is a kind of forest story. These icons speak of spotted animals, sites, and various signs, and reading or unraveling them is of particular interest to both tourists and historians.

This is a story about the forest. Mansi signs tell about animals they saw, resting stops and other things. It is particularly interesting to solve its meaning for the hikers as well as historians.

Here we see Zina entering the diary .




4 frames later on the film we have the Mansi sign.






Then we have this drawing in Zinas diary of the Mansi sign. The sign and the note in the diary reference 1958. So could be the moment in time.




I think they are just short notes as they go.
 

February 29, 2024, 03:01:36 PM
Reply #15
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Axelrod


Salekhard is inside Tyumen region , not "near".
 

February 29, 2024, 03:43:22 PM
Reply #16
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Ziljoe


Salekhard is inside Tyumen region , not "near".

Splitting hairs perhaps. The quotes are from the diaries of the Dyatlov hikers.

The Tyumen region stretches 2,100 km from north to south and 1,400 km from east to west. It borders on the Komi Republic, the Krasnoyarsk Territory, the Kurgan, Sverdlovsk, Tomsk and Omsk regions, as well as on the Nenets Autonomous Area and shares a state border with the Republic of Kazakhstan.

It seems that the mansi or Voguls inhabit the north polar Urals . Either the hikers were wrong or the translation is .
 

February 29, 2024, 07:40:44 PM
Reply #17
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Ziljoe


The entry in the diary below seems to be correct Axelrod, allowing for slight translation or grammar errors.

Mansi are people of the North. Small Khanti-Mansi nation located in Salehard with 8 thousand population. Very interesting and unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region

Tyumen region or oblast,  yugra, Okrug.

In a current context, the word "Yugra" generally refers to a political constituent of the Russia Federation formally known as Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug–Yugra, located in the lands historically known as Ioughoria. In modern Russian this word is rendered "Югория" (Yugoria) and is used as a poetic synonym of the region.

Autonomous okrugs (Russian: автономный округ, avtonomnyy okrug; more correctly referred to as "autonomous districts" or "autonomous areas") are a type of federal subject of the Russian Federation and simultaneously an administrative division type of some federal subjects. As of 2024, Russia has four autonomous okrugs of its 83 federal subjects.[a] The Chukotka Autonomous Okrug is the only okrug which is not subordinate to an oblast. The Nenets Autonomous Okrug is a part of Arkhangelsk Oblast, the Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug and the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug are parts of Tyumen Oblast.

Now I can't say I fully understand but I'm trying.

I think Tyumen oblast is here , in dark red. And the rest is the district.






Then the region or district  Khanti-Mansi nation is here.





Then the upper part of Tyumen is here with Salekhard .




So , the Urals run down the west side of the full Tyumen district/region / oblast.

So in my poor diagram. The Urals run down the side of Tyumen district. Which I understand to be what is said in the diary .

unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region.






 

March 01, 2024, 03:54:49 AM
Reply #18
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GreenRain


A typewritten copy of a document usually contains name and signature of copier and date of copying.

But there is no information about who and when made typewritten copies of diaries in Case Files.
It is strange for me too.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2024, 04:53:28 AM by GreenRain »
 

March 01, 2024, 02:42:52 PM
Reply #19
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Axelrod


Tyumen region consists of 3 regions

the northernmost - Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug (capital Salekhard)
Formed on December 10, 1930.

middle - Khanty-Mansiysk (Khanty-Mansiysk, plus Surgut)
southern - Tyumen
After clarification of the ethnic names of the peoples of the North, the Ostyaks began to be called Khanty, and the Voguls - Mansi, and therefore in 1940 the village was renamed Khanty-Mansiysk.

Nenets, Khanty and Mansi are different nationalities.
Either Dyatlov had a poor understanding of geography, or  Sadehard was the capital for everyone in 1959?
 

March 01, 2024, 02:52:07 PM
Reply #20
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Axelrod


Frim Russian Wikipedia:

Further administrative and territorial reform led to changes in the Ural region and in its composition, on December 10, 1930, the Ostyako-Vogulsky national district was formed with the center in the city of Ostyako-Vogulsk, founded on the site of the village of Samarovo (from October 23, 1940 - the city of Khanty-Mansiysk ).


In general, it’s very strange to imagine that they could write such a scientific text on a hike. Didn’t he have other problems and concerns?

Perhaps these lines about Salekhard were added by diary hoaxers in Moscow?
 

March 01, 2024, 04:23:02 PM
Reply #21
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Ziljoe


I agree there are 3 regions. Hence my previous post. I don't read any anything scientific in their text. They are educated students, what they say is fact.

Mansi are people of the North.
( Yep, true story)

 Small Khanti-Mansi nation located in Salehard with 8 thousand population. ( Probably relatively true)

Very interesting and unique people that inhabit the North Polar Urals ( true again) ,

 close to the Tyumen region (absolutely true)


If we look at the map and where the Urals are , and the regions of Tyumen are.

The diary entry is
the North Polar Urals, close to the Tyumen region

There is no secret about this information, I'm sure soviet education covered this in primary and secondary school . It's normal education.

In my opinion  , nothing strange at all.
 

March 02, 2024, 02:45:20 AM
Reply #22
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Axelrod


You haven't fully checked the information.
They have this phrase:
Low-nationality Khanty-Mansiysk district. with the center of Salekhard 8 thousand people.



And in general, why was it necessary to write such information during the trek on January 30th?
Did they meet someone? Someone told them this at Auspiya?
Did they read this information on the tree?


 

March 02, 2024, 07:34:58 AM
Reply #23
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Ziljoe


Is it the correct phrase? I'm only translating what I can.

Salekhard may have a center of 8 thousand people and the rest are spread out to make 16 thousand, or 8 thousand might be the local tribes and 8 thousand might be russian and Ukrainian.

So I'm not sure what I'm not checking. Are you debating the population and the district's ?

I think the census says there were 5600 Mansi and about 11000 khanty in 1959. This is what I can find at least. I don't know if it's for all the regions .

Salekhard seems to be the centre for the tribes. I do not know a lot about this. There seems to be many different tribes or nationalities across the region. The North Urals are towards the west of Tyumen district. The Mansi hunt and herd in the Ural's as written in the diary and probably other regions too.





And in general, why was it necessary to write such information during the trek on January 30th?
Did they meet someone? Someone told them this at Auspiya?
Did they read this information on the tree?


I don't think it was necessary or unnecessary,
The hikers have to write something, perhaps for a presentation when they return, perhaps personal interest and respect. There was no internet and little television in 1959, such things would be interesting, other people's cultures would be a mystery. We all love a mystery? .

It's such an obvious thing to write in the diary and take photos. They were trying to understand the sign posts and communication of the symbols.

Otherwise, all diaries would read, "we started, we arrived , we came back....."   





 

March 02, 2024, 09:20:00 AM
Reply #24
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Axelrod


Salekhard is not a center for the Khanty and Mansi. This is a center for the Nenets (Samoyeds).
If you compare the map of the Tyumen region with the map of North America,
then it will be like this:

Yamalo-Nenets District = Canada
Khanty-Mansiysk District = USA
Tyumen region = Mexico.

respectively

Sadehard = Ottawa
Khanty-Mansiysk = Washington
Tyumen = Mexico City.

Diary entry: Indian state with the center of the city of Ottawa.
Do you understand?

The one who wrote this diary entry. he has a bad understanding of geography.
Moreover, Salekhard’s animosity is 2 times less than what was real at that time.
And in city of Khanty-Mansiysk there were supposed to be 20-21 thousand in 1959.
 
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March 02, 2024, 11:42:07 AM
Reply #25
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Ziljoe


I understand the Tyumen region and the break down of city's per region. That is not a problem.

It may be an error of the writer if they are stating that Salekhard is the Mansi khanty center, or an assumption.There is overlap and history of many of the people which has been an interesting read.

But the author in the diary say's the Mansi occupy the North Urals close to Tyumen region , which I believe to be true. If they were writing as the went with only their memories of the regions it would make sense. Or talking to the less informed workers that may not have not known the exact details but gave some information. The nearest administrative city to the north Urals is Salekhard, so a simple guess at the time I would suspect. They may have got the ethnic location and regions mixed up,they don't know much about the Mansi, so they have tried to write an educated guess.

I don't see anything strange or stupid in the entry .  Al ot of history and movement of people though.
 

March 02, 2024, 12:55:32 PM
Reply #26
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Axelrod


...The nearest administrative city to the north Urals is Salekhard, so a simple guess at the time I would suspect. They may have got the ethnic location and regions mixed up,they don't know much about the Mansi, so they have tried to write an educated guess.

I don't see anything strange or stupid in the entry .  Al ot of history and movement of people though.
You write strange things, so I checked you on the map.
Khanty-Mansiysk is one and a half times closer to the Dyatlov Pass than Salekhard, and one and a half times larger in population than Salekhard.
 

March 02, 2024, 02:07:03 PM
Reply #27
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Ziljoe


I agree regarding Dyatlov pass. But I'm trying to interpret what they might be meaning when they write . The North Urals cover a large area,

What they wrote about the Mansi and Salekhard does not seem wrong from the authors perspective. It is a possibility that they had limited knowledge as I do.