Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: MDGross on December 06, 2019, 08:27:07 AM
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Several of the members were experienced in mountain hiking. More than likely Dyatlov knew on that last night that the angle of the slope would preclude the danger of an avalanche. I doubt, however, that any of the hikers had experience with or even heard of katabatic or gravity wind. Here's my scenario, inside the tent the group heard the sudden roar of nearly hurricane force wind. The tent was flapping wildly as if ready to set sail and fly off. They cut the tent open and rushed outside and scooped snow as fast as they could onto the top of the side of the tent facing the wind. The wind was ferocious and snow blowing every where. They decided to move down from the completely exposed slope to the shelter of the trees. They walked at a normal pace (what else could they do in such a wind) holding on to the person in front of them. They were pelted by blowing ice which accounts for the many scratches on each hiker's face. When they reached the trees, two hikers already had severe frostbite. A fire was built in a futile attempt to keep them alive. Four of the hikers decided to dig out a snow bunker in the small ravine down from the trees. Someone walked back to their two dead comrades and removed what clothing they could for extra warmth. But they too died one by one of hypothermia. One of the last men alive removed the coat and hat from the deceased woman and put them on. Over the following three plus months snow continued to weigh down on their bodies. The pressure finally compressed the chests of two of them. Another hiker had his skull compressed. Meanwhile the other three hikers, including Dyatlov, struggled to return to the tent to gather shoes, coats and gloves for themselves and their colleagues. They had no chance in the wind and cold.
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It’s unlikely. The tent was only about 300 metres from the summit. This doesn’t allow for the colder denser air to gain much energy. This is a simplistic conservative estimation process.
E= V(Dc-Dw)g.h
E is energy J
V is volume of air displaced m3
Dc is density colder air
Dw is density warmer air
g is gravity acceleration m/s2
h is vertical height m
You can estimate changes in air density using ideal gas equation for given temperature differences.
Then equate energy for unit mass of cold air in terms of kinetic energy and you will get air velocity, but this would be the maximum possible as it does not account for resistive losses as the air flows down the slope which are likely to be significant. I haven’t plugged any numbers in but off the top of my head I think the wind speed generated would be in the region of 30 m/s or less
Regards
Star man
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The autopsies of the ravine four showed that the rib cage injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon were the cause of death not acquired after death. They both demonstrated internal bleeding from the trauma, this proves that their hearts were still beating.
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It is highly likely that all of the Dyatlov Group knew about the sudden extreme winds etc that could develop in that area. And those crushing injuries most likely happened very quickly and not over a few weeks or months
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The autopsies were so hastily and ineptly done that it's extremely difficult to know what evidence was found of internal bleeding. I'm not sure after three months of being frozen then days of decomposition that any conclusions can be trusted. Any physicians out in cyberspace who can respond?
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The autopsies were so hastily and ineptly done that it's extremely difficult to know what evidence was found of internal bleeding. I'm not sure after three months of being frozen then days of decomposition that any conclusions can be trusted. Any physicians out in cyberspace who can respond?
Ludmila :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743)"the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood. The pericardium contained up to 20 cubic cm of yellowish transparent liquid.
Semyon :-
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351?rbid=17743"The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood. The pericardium contained up to 15 cm3 of opaque amber liquid."
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I read somewhere that Semyon was found wearing Ludmila's coat and hat. If several feet of snow suddenly fell upon them in their snow den, how could he have removed her coat and hat? I don't support the theory that they died of shock waves from a bomb. It's possible that a sudden movement of snow buried them and caused their deaths instead of hypothermia. Then the question is how did Semyon end up with the coat and hat.
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Semyon wasn't wearing a hat when found. What might have happened is that it was found close to him and placed with him and hence recorded as his at the morgue. I'm not sure about Lyudmila's jacket, from the pre event photos they seem to have a similar jacket each?
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I haven’t plugged any numbers in but off the top of my head I think the wind speed generated would be in the region of 30 m/s or less
108 km/h is hardly a refreshing breeze! Is that for the gravity wind alone? As in, there could be normal wind added to that?It is highly likely that all of the Dyatlov Group knew about the sudden extreme winds etc that could develop in that area.
Yes, they at least knew about it the day before; they wrote about it in their journal.
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30 m/s was a worst case off the top of my head guess. 108km/hr is not a tent destroying storm .
So, for a significant 20 celcius temperature gradient the maximum air velocity not taking account of significant resistive losses is about a half of my original guess 17 m/s. You could probably take off another 30-50% for resistive energy losses. Which gives a katabatic wind speed of about 20 mph.
Regards
Star man
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From memory a resident in Ivdel stated that he had experienced that night the strongest winds since moving there eight years previously.
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I believe the tent was constructed of two four-person tents sewn together. How much wind and blowing ice would be needed to cause a rip in the seam? Also, the tent was tied to skis and ski poles. This worked when camping on level ground or in a forest opening, but how secure when the tent was set up on a mountain slope with possibly high winds? In retrospect, yes, the group should have remained in the tent. But the hikers it seems only had minutes to decide in brutal weather conditions and in pitch blackness if the tent was going to give way. If they felt that it was, then seeking shelter in the trees below made sense.
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then seeking shelter in the trees below made sense.
So why not take all your clothing with you, particularly footwear? You're avoiding the core question wrt the DPI - why leave half dressed?
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The tent was in the main still standing. The seems were cut from inside. If you study the cuts and tears there is evidence to suggest that the cuts were made first then someone pulled at the cuts to make the holes bigger. There is no reason for anyone to do that in the case of a high wind.
As Nigel points out - why not take your clothes? Rustem took one of his boots but not the other. Why? If he had time to put one on surely he must have thought he had time for the other unless something happened that forced him to abandon putting his other boot on. So what could do that? Unlikely to be high winds.
Regards
Star man
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I'm a firm believer of Occam's razor: explanations that require the fewest assumptions are often the correct ones.
Was the Dyatlov party murdered by the KBG, Soviet military or someone else?
Were the hikers drunk, drugged or fighting among themselves?
Did a missile or bombs explode around them?
These and many other theories are possible. All anyone can do is consider the circumstantial evidence (which may or may not have been tampered with depending on the theory) and make an educated guess.
I believe the theories that require the fewest assumptions involve naturally occurring phenomena – avalanche, snow slide or as the 2019 Russian investigation called it, a "hurricane."
Whatever happened occurred suddenly with no warning. The hikers believed their lives were in imminent danger. No time to sort through shoes and coats, just get out of the tent as quickly as possible. In the case of a perceived avalanche or snow slab, wouldn't each person make a mad dash for the trees? But once they got out of the tent and were confronted with a brutally strong wind and the blackness of night, wouldn't it be best to walk single file holding on to the person in front of you or else risk getting separated? This is certainly one of the simplest explanations. But it's only my considered guess and nothing more. Only nine people know for certain what happened, and as the saying goes: they ain't talking.
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A military exercise, missiles fueled with nitric acid and amines is my theory with the ravine four being crushed by a tracked vehicle.
I don't think they were murdered.
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A well thought-out scenario. Do you think exposure to nitric acid could account to the unusual "orange" color of the corpses? Do you have any documentation that a military exercise was being conducted on the evening of Feb. 1 in the area of the Dyatlov party? In the vast expanse of Siberia, what are the chances that the Soviet military would be carrying out a major exercise in such proximity of the hikers? Wouldn't trees be damaged and tracks everywhere? Also, someone run over by a tracked vehicle would have crushed bones, heart, lungs, etc. This wasn't the case if the autopsies can be believed, which is questionable itself. So many pieces would have to fall in place: missile launches, bombs dropped, soldiers, tanks, etc. on the move that is seems highly improbable to me. But a fascinating idea and as always, who knows for sure?
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Dear MDgross: If there were nitric acid spilled on the hikers why was there none in the surrounding area? As far as tree burning, there is one discussion of tree burns but it cannot be documented as to when this happened. There was a piece of rocket found in the area well after the incident and I am not certain if they have pinpointed the date of when it became on the mountain.
I have to say the ravine 4's injuries probably were not caused by a tractor running over them, there would be bruises and track marks on their skin.
It is possible the orange color was from being frostbitten, as the first five were exposed to the sun, it could also be sun damage on dead skin....
There are more questions than answers...
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I agree with you jarrfan. The military exercise was proposed by Nigel Evans and not me. I lean toward hurricane force winds that came upon the group so suddenly that they became panicked and disoriented since they weren't sure what was happening.
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A well thought-out scenario. Do you think exposure to nitric acid could account to the unusual "orange" color of the corpses? Yes and the foam on YuriD's cheek and the orange powder on his clothing. Do you have any documentation that a military exercise was being conducted on the evening of Feb. 1 in the area of the Dyatlov party? No, but the extensive coverup hints at a military exercise. In the vast expanse of Siberia, what are the chances that the Soviet military would be carrying out a major exercise in such proximity of the hikers? Wouldn't trees be damaged and tracks everywhere? Ivanov noted burnt trees, the theory needs an extensive clean up.. Also, someone run over by a tracked vehicle would have crushed bones, heart, lungs, etc. The crushing was through a layer of snow (say 1 metre? see - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.0). This wasn't the case if the autopsies can be believed, which is questionable itself. So many pieces would have to fall in place: missile launches, bombs dropped, soldiers, tanks, etc. on the move that is seems highly improbable to me. But a fascinating idea and as always, who knows for sure?
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If there were nitric acid spilled on the hikers why was there none in the surrounding area?
High winds?
Also something caused the footsteps to stay there for 3 weeks. Chemicals?
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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation. Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair. There is also clear evidence that the fire was still burning after his and Krivonischenko’s death. If Doroschenko had frost bite before the fire was lit why would he climb the tree himself? If the fire was lit beforehand then he should not have got such severe frost bite in the first place or died before the fire had burned out. So he and probably the others must have climbed the tree with severe frost bite, or stayed in the tree long enough to get severe frost bite. Climbing the tree could not have been simply to collect fire wood and definitely not to get away from strong winds. The skin from the hikers thighs was found frozen into the bark of the tree.
Regards
Star man
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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation.
Regards
Star man
Possibly he gave himself that frostbite climbing the tree?
To me he probably climbed the tree to try to see something. Could you see the slope with the tent from the bottom of the cedar? Either he was trying to spot the tent, the three who back to the tent, or maybe some sign of human life.
Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.
If his hands were already really cold/frostbitten, he wouldn't have felt the skin come off.
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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation. Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair. There is also clear evidence that the fire was still burning after his and Krivonischenko’s death. If Doroschenko had frost bite before the fire was lit why would he climb the tree himself? If the fire was lit beforehand then he should not have got such severe frost bite in the first place or died before the fire had burned out. So he and probably the others must have climbed the tree with severe frost bite, or stayed in the tree long enough to get severe frost bite. Climbing the tree could not have been simply to collect fire wood and definitely not to get away from strong winds. The skin from the hikers thighs was found frozen into the bark of the tree.
Regards
Star man
It might not have been frostbite?
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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation.
Regards
Star man
Possibly he gave himself that frostbite climbing the tree?
To me he probably climbed the tree to try to see something. Could you see the slope with the tent from the bottom of the cedar? Either he was trying to spot the tent, the three who back to the tent, or maybe some sign of human life.
Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair.
If his hands were already really cold/frostbitten, he wouldn't have felt the skin come off.
Given that it was night and dark I doubt that they would have been able to see more than 50 to 100 metres even with a fire going. So probably would not have been able to see the tent or very far up the slope. There is speculation that they left a flashlight as a marker but I don’t support this as they had a greater need to take the flashlight with them to increase their chances of survival.
Doroshenko and Krivonischenko probably got their frost bite while clinging to the tree for some time before the hikers eventually got a chance to light a fire. The hikers were experienced and certainly would know how to light a fire. If Doroshenko arrived at the cedar in a bad way with frost bite the others would more likely climb the tree to collect fire wood or collect wood from the surrounding ground. It is unlikely that it would have taken that long to get a fire going. They did have to use a fair number of matches. About 27 to 28 ish if I remember correctly but even this many matches can easily be used within 10 minutes. So this still leaves a question as to why Doroschenko climbed the tree. It seems to me that they climbed it in haste to find safety from the same threat that forced them away from the tent. They stayed on the tree for some time before deciding it was safe to come down or because they had to come down to light a fire to save their lives.
Regards
Star man
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Yuri Doroschenko had such severe frost bite on his hands and feet that if he had survived they would have required amputation. Yet there is clear evidence that he climbed the cedar tree based on his other injuries and moss / pine needles in his hair. There is also clear evidence that the fire was still burning after his and Krivonischenko’s death. If Doroschenko had frost bite before the fire was lit why would he climb the tree himself? If the fire was lit beforehand then he should not have got such severe frost bite in the first place or died before the fire had burned out. So he and probably the others must have climbed the tree with severe frost bite, or stayed in the tree long enough to get severe frost bite. Climbing the tree could not have been simply to collect fire wood and definitely not to get away from strong winds. The skin from the hikers thighs was found frozen into the bark of the tree.
Regards
Star man
It might not have been frostbite?
What else could it have been?
Regards
Star man
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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
Yes some kind of electrical event. An electrical event of unknown origin. An event of overwhelming force.
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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
Nigel, it doesn’t seem to credible to me that Doroshenko could have been exposed to and especially not drenched in rocket fuel ( I presume you refer to fuming nitric acid?), such that it only caused severe damage to his extremities. Fuming nitric acid would not only leave orange staining on his clothes it would likely disintegrate them. Fuming nitric has a tendency to degrade and oxidise any organic material and can cause it to burst into flames.
The explanation of frost bite is much more likely.
I think you would need to explain how his extremities were burned but the rest of his body wasn’t?
Regards
Star man
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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
Nigel, it doesn’t seem to credible to me that Doroshenko could have been exposed to and especially not drenched ok, drenched is too strong, a swirling vapour perhaps. in rocket fuel ( I presume you refer to fuming nitric acid?), no it could be amines. such that it only caused severe damage to his extremities. Like Zina's face? Fuming nitric acid would not only leave orange staining on his clothes it would likely disintegrate them. His relative reported that the clothing was disintegrating Fuming nitric has a tendency to degrade and oxidise any organic material and can cause it to burst into flames. A good explanation for Yuri K's leg?
The explanation of frost bite is much more likely. Given that Yuri D clearly died before the others and yet he has far worse "frostbite" combined with Zina's face, Yuri D's clothing, Yuri D's foam on cheek, Yuri K's leg then i'd give it as 50/50 it was frostbite and not something else.
I think you would need to explain how his extremities were burned but the rest of his body wasn’t? Swirling vapour with large variation in density creating localised effects perhaps. For the electrical narrative it's easy.
Regards
Star man
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Regarding gravity wind theory: I can only comment that whatever took place, happened first at the tent site where they left. The 2 Yuri's died at the cedar tree area. The ravine 4 had enough time to dig out a den, then did not use it. Their injuries testify that they were injured at the site of death. There is no way they could have made the den, walked down that slope in the condition they were in. So there were basically 3 different death sites. I can only imagine they were separated, the ones at the cedar were questioned and tortured and then they moved onto the ravine 4 who were building a den in hopes of being safe and whatever the threat was would go away. It didn't.
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I'm among those who believe the tragedy was caused by a natural phenomenon. Perhaps a ferocious wind blew down the mountain slope. The tent started flapping wildly; the noise was deafening. When they rushed out of the tent in pitch blackness, the wind was howling and snow blowing from every direction. They had split seconds to make a decision in unimaginable weather conditions. In such a wind and at 30 below, they were already freezing to death when they reached the trees. The two under the tree died within half an hour or so. The three struggling to return to the tent died soon after. The last four tried frantically to dig out a snow den, but fell 9 or 10 feet onto rocks in the ravine and three out of the four suffered fatal injuries. All speculation on my part and I'm open to other theories. For now, this is the one I favor.
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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
Nigel, it doesn’t seem to credible to me that Doroshenko could have been exposed to and especially not drenched ok, drenched is too strong, a swirling vapour perhaps. in rocket fuel ( I presume you refer to fuming nitric acid?), no it could be amines. such that it only caused severe damage to his extremities. Like Zina's face? Fuming nitric acid would not only leave orange staining on his clothes it would likely disintegrate them. His relative reported that the clothing was disintegrating Fuming nitric has a tendency to degrade and oxidise any organic material and can cause it to burst into flames. A good explanation for Yuri K's leg?
The explanation of frost bite is much more likely. Given that Yuri D clearly died before the others and yet he has far worse "frostbite" combined with Zina's face, Yuri D's clothing, Yuri D's foam on cheek, Yuri K's leg then i'd give it as 50/50 it was frostbite and not something else.
I think you would need to explain how his extremities were burned but the rest of his body wasn’t? Swirling vapour with large variation in density creating localised effects perhaps. For the electrical narrative it's easy.
Regards
Star man
Hi Nigel. I would still expect more widespread chemical burns across the group. Given the conditions frost bite is still the most likely reason. It doesn’t rule out chemical vapour at toxic levels though.
Regards
Star man
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Chemical, electrical burns?
If you follow the "rocket fuel narrative" then Yuri D was drenched in the stuff, covering his clothing (orange powder) and inhaling enough to give him a pulmonary edema. So this calls into question the "frostbite" which was atypical compared to the others.
Obviously the electrical narrative has good scope for blackened extremities.
Regards.
Nigel, it doesn’t seem to credible to me that Doroshenko could have been exposed to and especially not drenched ok, drenched is too strong, a swirling vapour perhaps. in rocket fuel ( I presume you refer to fuming nitric acid?), no it could be amines. such that it only caused severe damage to his extremities. Like Zina's face? Fuming nitric acid would not only leave orange staining on his clothes it would likely disintegrate them. His relative reported that the clothing was disintegrating Fuming nitric has a tendency to degrade and oxidise any organic material and can cause it to burst into flames. A good explanation for Yuri K's leg?
The explanation of frost bite is much more likely. Given that Yuri D clearly died before the others and yet he has far worse "frostbite" combined with Zina's face, Yuri D's clothing, Yuri D's foam on cheek, Yuri K's leg then i'd give it as 50/50 it was frostbite and not something else.
I think you would need to explain how his extremities were burned but the rest of his body wasn’t? Swirling vapour with large variation in density creating localised effects perhaps. For the electrical narrative it's easy.
Regards
Star man
Hi Nigel. I would still expect more widespread chemical burns across the group. Given the conditions frost bite is still the most likely reason. It doesn’t rule out chemical vapour at toxic levels though.
Regards
Star man
The case for chemicals :-
white hair
orange skin
facial "burns"
orange powder on disintegrating clothes
lyudmila's brown face/white chin
foam on cheek
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If there were chemicals involved would the tent not have been affected? When I looked at nitrogen dioxide as a possibility it is possible to see why the tent would not have been affected and the hikers affected due to the temperature difference, but that is a specific chemical.
If they all had white hair and burns on their skin I think that would be stronger evidence?
Regards
Star man
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If there were chemicals involved would the tent not have been affected? When I looked at nitrogen dioxide as a possibility it is possible to see why the tent would not have been affected and the hikers affected due to the temperature difference, but that is a specific chemical.
If they all had white hair and burns on their skin I think that would be stronger evidence?
Regards
Star man
I don't see the connection, a nearby explosion could get them running from the tent and downwind vapour streams could be very selective. Incidentally chemicals are a good explanation for the burnt trees at the treeline...
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Interesting photo taken yesterday from the World Trade Center showing a snow squall blowing across Manhattan. Suppose one of the guys stepped out of the tent to relieve himself and saw something similar rushing down the mountain. Maybe he rushes back inside and tells everyone to get out of the tent and down to the trees right now. Possible? Maybe...
(https://i.ibb.co/WvjRgmg/Screen-Shot-2019-12-19-at-10-56-31-AM.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Interesting photo taken yesterday from the World Trade Center showing a snow squall blowing across Manhattan. Suppose one of the guys stepped out of the tent to relieve himself and saw something similar rushing down the mountain. Maybe he rushes back inside and tells everyone to get out of the tent and down to the trees right now. Possible? Maybe...
(https://i.ibb.co/WvjRgmg/Screen-Shot-2019-12-19-at-10-56-31-AM.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Maybe not?
(https://i.ibb.co/VHFy5KZ/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DGBXTqy)
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Hi Nigel, Pure speculation on my part (what theory isn't speculation?). The snow squall in the photo looks frightening to me. Perhaps if such a weather event happened the night of Feb. 1, the Dyatlov party was frightened and made a dash for it. But, as I say, only speculation...I do believe that a weather phenomenon or natural occurrence compelled them to flee the tent.
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Hi Nigel, Pure speculation on my part (what theory isn't speculation?). The snow squall in the photo looks frightening to me. Perhaps if such a weather event happened the night of Feb. 1, the Dyatlov party was frightened and made a dash for it. But, as I say, only speculation...I do believe that a weather phenomenon or natural occurrence compelled them to flee the tent.
Hi there. I'm with you on speculation but not all speculation is equal. E.g. it seems safe to assert that the event that caused them to immediately exit the tent happened in complete darkness (the moon rising in the early morning and their stomach contents suggesting they ate 8 hours before death). This coupled with the presence of numerous slits on the side of the tent that overlooked the whole area seems to suggest that something extraordinary took place that was VISIBLE. Now as it seems a safe assertion that it happened in the dead of night then this something would seem to be self illuminating.
Now look at the plane photos. Damaged film or photos of something self illuminating in a snow storm with the light catching the crest of a hill?
If like me you think the frames are not damage then you're forced along the electrical phenomena or missile theories or both.
Regards
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Taking photos at night is difficult in terms of how long to expose the film. Doubly tough without using a tripod. Plus Zolotaryov's camera seems pretty basic. The "three heads" could be in fact the tops of trees or who knows what. The white light could be just film exposed too long, maybe it's just simply a wall of snow heading their way. I imagine if you asked 10 professional photographers about this photo, you'd probably get 10 different answers. Difficult to base missile or electrical discharge theories on the Krivonischenko and Zolotaryov photos.
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Taking photos at night is difficult in terms of how long to expose the film. Doubly tough without using a tripod. Plus Zolotaryov's camera seems pretty basic. The "three heads" could be in fact the tops of trees or who knows what. The white light could be just film exposed too long, maybe it's just simply a wall of snow heading their way.
No you're not getting it. Either all these shots have to be explained as damage or if not where is the illumination coming from?
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Not saying the film was damaged. But taking a photo at night with no flash is very difficult. The photo will end up mostly black or if the shutter is open too long terribly distorted – too much white light and blurry. Who knows what Semyon and the others were looking at? Perhaps a meteor shower or the Northern Lights. Siberia in the winter is one of the best places in the world to see those. Could have been the flash from a rocket explosion, but could have been dozens of other things. Without more reliable evidence of a missile or rocket test, I don't believe these photos can be trusted.
(https://i.ibb.co/nrsWhX5/Screen-Shot-2019-12-20-at-1-35-45-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/31yJtxL)
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You don't cut 9 slits in your tent for meteor showers or northern lights (i assert). It has to be something more extraordinary possibly scary. I'd agree that the photos can't be trusted but equally i would say that Semyon was trying to photograph something and used several frames to do it. Note also that this perspective applies to the photos from Rustem's and Yuri K's cameras although a lot of effort is made to dismiss them as exposure errors during processing.
So that's the case i think - in the dead of night there were visible events that resulted in 9 slits and mystery frames from three cameras. It is reasonable to argue that these events were the cause of - white hair, orange brown skin, facial burns (Zina), brown face/white chin (Lyudmila), orange powder on disintegrating clothing plus foam on cheek (Yuri D). A looser association can be made for - burnt treeline, Yuri K's burnt leg, Rustem's trauma, footsteps in powder @ -10/-15C shouldn't have persisted for three weeks, Yuri D's frostbite.
The most obvious single cause is of course - missiles with liquid fuel exploding upwind of the group.
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You don't cut 9 slits in your tent for meteor showers or northern lights (i assert). It has to be something more extraordinary possibly scary. I'd agree that the photos can't be trusted but equally i would say that Semyon was trying to photograph something and used several frames to do it. Note also that this perspective applies to the photos from Rustem's and Yuri K's cameras although a lot of effort is made to dismiss them as exposure errors during processing.
So that's the case i think - in the dead of night there were visible events that resulted in 9 slits and mystery frames from three cameras. It is reasonable to argue that these events were the cause of - white hair, orange brown skin, facial burns (Zina), brown face/white chin (Lyudmila), orange powder on disintegrating clothing plus foam on cheek (Yuri D). A looser association can be made for - burnt treeline, Yuri K's burnt leg, Rustem's trauma, footsteps in powder @ -10/-15C shouldn't have persisted for three weeks, Yuri D's frostbite.
The most obvious single cause is of course - missiles with liquid fuel exploding upwind of the group.
What would the logic be for cutting viewing slits in the tent for exploding missiles?
Wouldn’t the most logical reason be to allow the hikers to observe something while remaining concealed themselves? Why conceal yourself from a missile? Would it not be more logical to conceal yourself from something that could see you?
Regards
Star man
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You don't cut 9 slits in your tent for meteor showers or northern lights (i assert). It has to be something more extraordinary possibly scary. I'd agree that the photos can't be trusted but equally i would say that Semyon was trying to photograph something and used several frames to do it. Note also that this perspective applies to the photos from Rustem's and Yuri K's cameras although a lot of effort is made to dismiss them as exposure errors during processing.
So that's the case i think - in the dead of night there were visible events that resulted in 9 slits and mystery frames from three cameras. It is reasonable to argue that these events were the cause of - white hair, orange brown skin, facial burns (Zina), brown face/white chin (Lyudmila), orange powder on disintegrating clothing plus foam on cheek (Yuri D). A looser association can be made for - burnt treeline, Yuri K's burnt leg, Rustem's trauma, footsteps in powder @ -10/-15C shouldn't have persisted for three weeks, Yuri D's frostbite.
The most obvious single cause is of course - missiles with liquid fuel exploding upwind of the group.
What would the logic be for cutting viewing slits in the tent for exploding missiles?
Wouldn’t the most logical reason be to allow the hikers to observe something while remaining concealed themselves? Why conceal yourself from a missile? Would it not be more logical to conceal yourself from something that could see you?
Regards
Star man
1. If you didn't know what they were they could be frightening.
2. The possibility exists that the missiles were aimed at something producing a radar signature and that was more frightening.
3. If a missile exploded nearby the smart thing to do would be to stay in a tent dug into a metre of snow rather than stepping outside.
Regards.
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Nigel, Your idea of fumes from an exploding missile has merit in terms of white hair, orange powder, orange/brown skin, slits in the tent and so forth. But if the last photos do show a missile exploding, why would the hikers walk to the trees? Wouldn't they have felt safer back inside the tent? Yes, the fumes from nitric acid would have killed them in or out of the tent, but they didn't recognize the danger of the situation. And I don't agree with your idea of a military exercise. There's a complete lack of evidence of such an exercise. Wouldn't many Soviet troops have died from the same toxic missile fumes?
I'm always open to new explanations for this tragic event, but a naturally occurring phenomenon is the simplest, most reasonable and I think most likely cause.
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Nigel, Your idea of fumes from an exploding missile has merit in terms of white hair, orange powder, orange/brown skin, slits in the tent and so forth. But if the last photos do show a missile exploding, why would the hikers walk to the trees? Wouldn't they have felt safer back inside the tent? It's my assumption that there were multiple missiles. Yes, the fumes from nitric acid would have killed them in or out of the tent, but they didn't recognize the danger of the situation. And I don't agree with your idea of a military exercise. There's a complete lack of evidence of such an exercise. Wouldn't many Soviet troops have died from the same toxic missile fumes? I'm not suggesting that the exercise involved ground troops?
I'm always open to new explanations for this tragic event, but a naturally occurring phenomenon is the simplest, most reasonable and I think most likely cause.
Lets take a scenario. You're in the Soviet high command. You have two new missiles (1) A intercontinental cruise missile, the Burya - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya and (2) the S-75 SAM missile - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina which will within a few months make history by bringing down Gary Powers U2 plane.
But there is a new kid on the block, the ICBM which promises to be invulnerable to anti aircraft (SAM) defences (from memory re-entering the atmosphere at Mach 9-10?). The proponents of this weapon argue that the Burya is a waste of valuable resources.
So a test is organised, send Buryas over the Urals (at speeds of Mach 3) and see if the S-75s can bring them down. For safety a kill zone is chosen - "Dead mountain" should do it.
The Buryas fail the test and are abandoned within 12 months. But the test and it's result is of the highest secrecy. If witnesses to the downing of these missiles have died then this is the best for national security but their bodies have to be found and accounted for. Once all the bodies are found then the matter can be wrapped up. Senior staff officers up to the rank of Colonel are involved, including a Lt Colonel with a team of sappers sweeping the mountain with metal detectors in the pretence of finding the bodies under the snow. The KGB are onsite throughout.
Now that's a scenario that imo fits and explains all the facts. I'm not suggesting it's true but it gives you my thinking for the missile theory.
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Did Soviet military conduct these sort of tests and more widely all exercices in Saturday evenings ?
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Points well taken, Nigel. If only military records could be found to prove this, you would have cracked one of the great mysteries of the 20th century. But documentation has probably disappeared. Questions: How long does it take to die after inhaling toxic missile fumes? Did the hikers die in and around the tent? Why flee to the trees once the missiles have been destroyed? Were the Dyatlov hikers' bodies planted by the Soviets in their final resting places? How are the three hikers who reportedly died from internal injuries explained? Wouldn't they have died earlier from inhaling the deadly fumes? So many questions, right. But sadly, definitive answers will probably never be found. Family members of today deserve to know.
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You don't cut 9 slits in your tent for meteor showers or northern lights (i assert). It has to be something more extraordinary possibly scary. I'd agree that the photos can't be trusted but equally i would say that Semyon was trying to photograph something and used several frames to do it. Note also that this perspective applies to the photos from Rustem's and Yuri K's cameras although a lot of effort is made to dismiss them as exposure errors during processing.
So that's the case i think - in the dead of night there were visible events that resulted in 9 slits and mystery frames from three cameras. It is reasonable to argue that these events were the cause of - white hair, orange brown skin, facial burns (Zina), brown face/white chin (Lyudmila), orange powder on disintegrating clothing plus foam on cheek (Yuri D). A looser association can be made for - burnt treeline, Yuri K's burnt leg, Rustem's trauma, footsteps in powder @ -10/-15C shouldn't have persisted for three weeks, Yuri D's frostbite.
The most obvious single cause is of course - missiles with liquid fuel exploding upwind of the group.
What would the logic be for cutting viewing slits in the tent for exploding missiles?
Wouldn’t the most logical reason be to allow the hikers to observe something while remaining concealed themselves? Why conceal yourself from a missile? Would it not be more logical to conceal yourself from something that could see you?
Regards
Star man
1. If you didn't know what they were they could be frightening.
2. The possibility exists that the missiles were aimed at something producing a radar signature and that was more frightening.
3. If a missile exploded nearby the smart thing to do would be to stay in a tent dug into a metre of snow rather than stepping outside.
Regards.
I think it is more likely that there was some “thing “. Outside the tent. It is unlikely that it was human.
Regards
Star man
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Nigel, Your idea of fumes from an exploding missile has merit in terms of white hair, orange powder, orange/brown skin, slits in the tent and so forth. But if the last photos do show a missile exploding, why would the hikers walk to the trees? Wouldn't they have felt safer back inside the tent? It's my assumption that there were multiple missiles. Yes, the fumes from nitric acid would have killed them in or out of the tent, but they didn't recognize the danger of the situation. And I don't agree with your idea of a military exercise. There's a complete lack of evidence of such an exercise. Wouldn't many Soviet troops have died from the same toxic missile fumes? I'm not suggesting that the exercise involved ground troops?
I'm always open to new explanations for this tragic event, but a naturally occurring phenomenon is the simplest, most reasonable and I think most likely cause.
Lets take a scenario. You're in the Soviet high command. You have two new missiles (1) A intercontinental cruise missile, the Burya - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya and (2) the S-75 SAM missile - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina which will within a few months make history by bringing down Gary Powers U2 plane.
But there is a new kid on the block, the ICBM which promises to be invulnerable to anti aircraft (SAM) defences (from memory re-entering the atmosphere at Mach 9-10?). The proponents of this weapon argue that the Burya is a waste of valuable resources.
So a test is organised, send Buryas over the Urals (at speeds of Mach 3) and see if the S-75s can bring them down. For safety a kill zone is chosen - "Dead mountain" should do it.
The Buryas fail the test and are abandoned within 12 months. But the test and it's result is of the highest secrecy. If witnesses to the downing of these missiles have died then this is the best for national security but their bodies have to be found and accounted for. Once all the bodies are found then the matter can be wrapped up. Senior staff officers up to the rank of Colonel are involved, including a Lt Colonel with a team of sappers sweeping the mountain with metal detectors in the pretence of finding the bodies under the snow. The KGB are onsite throughout.
Now that's a scenario that imo fits and explains all the facts. I'm not suggesting it's true but it gives you my thinking for the missile theory.
It’s an interesting idea. But I don’t think it fits all the available facts and the pattern of events.
Regards
Star man
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30 m/s was a worst case off the top of my head guess. 108km/hr is not a tent destroying storm .
Regards
Star man
The Swiss government's website (https://www.natural-hazards.ch/home/dealing-with-natural-hazards/wind/danger-levels-wind.html) says that in 110-140 km/h winds you can have "Movement of securely anchored objects with a larger surface area, such as tents and scaffolding".
So, for a significant 20 celcius temperature gradient the maximum air velocity not taking account of significant resistive losses is about a half of my original guess 17 m/s. You could probably take off another 30-50% for resistive energy losses. Which gives a katabatic wind speed of about 20 mph.
But then there could be normal wind on top of that? The kabatic wind only blows at night, right? So it would add itself to the already fierce winds during the day.
From memory a resident in Ivdel stated that he had experienced that night the strongest winds since moving there eight years previously.
Dyatlov described it as like being in the wake of a taking off plane.
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Nigel, Your idea of fumes from an exploding missile has merit in terms of white hair, orange powder, orange/brown skin, slits in the tent and so forth. But if the last photos do show a missile exploding, why would the hikers walk to the trees? Wouldn't they have felt safer back inside the tent? It's my assumption that there were multiple missiles. Yes, the fumes from nitric acid would have killed them in or out of the tent, but they didn't recognize the danger of the situation. And I don't agree with your idea of a military exercise. There's a complete lack of evidence of such an exercise. Wouldn't many Soviet troops have died from the same toxic missile fumes? I'm not suggesting that the exercise involved ground troops?
I'm always open to new explanations for this tragic event, but a naturally occurring phenomenon is the simplest, most reasonable and I think most likely cause.
Lets take a scenario. You're in the Soviet high command. You have two new missiles (1) A intercontinental cruise missile, the Burya - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya) and (2) the S-75 SAM missile - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina) which will within a few months make history by bringing down Gary Powers U2 plane.
But there is a new kid on the block, the ICBM which promises to be invulnerable to anti aircraft (SAM) defences (from memory re-entering the atmosphere at Mach 9-10?). The proponents of this weapon argue that the Burya is a waste of valuable resources.
So a test is organised, send Buryas over the Urals (at speeds of Mach 3) and see if the S-75s can bring them down. For safety a kill zone is chosen - "Dead mountain" should do it.
The Buryas fail the test and are abandoned within 12 months. But the test and it's result is of the highest secrecy. If witnesses to the downing of these missiles have died then this is the best for national security but their bodies have to be found and accounted for. Once all the bodies are found then the matter can be wrapped up. Senior staff officers up to the rank of Colonel are involved, including a Lt Colonel with a team of sappers sweeping the mountain with metal detectors in the pretence of finding the bodies under the snow. The KGB are onsite throughout.
Now that's a scenario that imo fits and explains all the facts. I'm not suggesting it's true but it gives you my thinking for the missile theory.
It’s an interesting idea. But I don’t think it fits all the available facts and the pattern of events.
Regards
Star man
What facts or pattern of events don't fit?
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Why make a test there on a Saturday evening in winter when you have since 1957 a nice test range with nobody around in Koura?
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Why make a test there on a Saturday evening in winter when you have since 1957 a nice test range with nobody around in Koura?
The S-75 wasn't mobile so this scenario would require Buryas to fly within the range of deployed ground installations but in a safe area for fall out. The Sverdlovsk region was protected by S-75 units. Indeed from memory Gary Powers was shot down over Sverdlovsk.
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30 m/s was a worst case off the top of my head guess. 108km/hr is not a tent destroying storm .
Regards
Star man
The Swiss government's website (https://www.natural-hazards.ch/home/dealing-with-natural-hazards/wind/danger-levels-wind.html) says that in 110-140 km/h winds you can have "Movement of securely anchored objects with a larger surface area, such as tents and scaffolding".
So, for a significant 20 celcius temperature gradient the maximum air velocity not taking account of significant resistive losses is about a half of my original guess 17 m/s. You could probably take off another 30-50% for resistive energy losses. Which gives a katabatic wind speed of about 20 mph.
But then there could be normal wind on top of that? The kabatic wind only blows at night, right? So it would add itself to the already fierce winds during the day.
From memory a resident in Ivdel stated that he had experienced that night the strongest winds since moving there eight years previously.
Dyatlov described it as like being in the wake of a taking off plane.
If the hikers thought that the wind was getting strong enough to damage or destroy the tent that they may have to abandon it would you not think they would probably have prepared to leave the tent? They were forced to leave quickly. A Katabatic wind 300 metres from the summit is extremely unlikely.
Regards
Star man
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Nigel, Your idea of fumes from an exploding missile has merit in terms of white hair, orange powder, orange/brown skin, slits in the tent and so forth. But if the last photos do show a missile exploding, why would the hikers walk to the trees? Wouldn't they have felt safer back inside the tent? It's my assumption that there were multiple missiles. Yes, the fumes from nitric acid would have killed them in or out of the tent, but they didn't recognize the danger of the situation. And I don't agree with your idea of a military exercise. There's a complete lack of evidence of such an exercise. Wouldn't many Soviet troops have died from the same toxic missile fumes? I'm not suggesting that the exercise involved ground troops?
I'm always open to new explanations for this tragic event, but a naturally occurring phenomenon is the simplest, most reasonable and I think most likely cause.
Lets take a scenario. You're in the Soviet high command. You have two new missiles (1) A intercontinental cruise missile, the Burya - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya) and (2) the S-75 SAM missile - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina) which will within a few months make history by bringing down Gary Powers U2 plane.
But there is a new kid on the block, the ICBM which promises to be invulnerable to anti aircraft (SAM) defences (from memory re-entering the atmosphere at Mach 9-10?). The proponents of this weapon argue that the Burya is a waste of valuable resources.
So a test is organised, send Buryas over the Urals (at speeds of Mach 3) and see if the S-75s can bring them down. For safety a kill zone is chosen - "Dead mountain" should do it.
The Buryas fail the test and are abandoned within 12 months. But the test and it's result is of the highest secrecy. If witnesses to the downing of these missiles have died then this is the best for national security but their bodies have to be found and accounted for. Once all the bodies are found then the matter can be wrapped up. Senior staff officers up to the rank of Colonel are involved, including a Lt Colonel with a team of sappers sweeping the mountain with metal detectors in the pretence of finding the bodies under the snow. The KGB are onsite throughout.
Now that's a scenario that imo fits and explains all the facts. I'm not suggesting it's true but it gives you my thinking for the missile theory.
It’s an interesting idea. But I don’t think it fits all the available facts and the pattern of events.
Regards
Star man
What facts or pattern of events don't fit?
The selective exposure and burns of some of the hikers but not others. Those with the worst burns to hands, feet and face were also the least well dressed . Given the temperature it is far more likely to have been caused by frost bite. It is a much simpler explanation.
Regards
Star man
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"The selective exposure and burns of some of the hikers but not others. Those with the worst burns to hands, feet and face were also the least well dressed . Given the temperature it is far more likely to have been caused by frost bite. It is a much simpler explanation."
The asymmetry of burns is easily explained by the fact that the rescue team noted that the group appeared to split up on the descent. Even within a single group people could have been metres apart which could have been significant. I'd suggest that the asymmetry is an argument against frostbite. Seven of them were similarly lightly dressed but some show no frostbite at all?
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Per your theory, how long did the hikers live once they began inhaling toxic fume? Minutes? Hours? Can the orange tint of their skin be explained by something else? Perhaps the missile test happened later in Feb. after the hikers were dead. Could toxic material seep into the snow and affect the bodies' skin color?
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Per your theory, how long did the hikers live once they began inhaling toxic fume? Minutes? Hours? Can the orange tint of their skin be explained by something else? Perhaps the missile test happened later in Feb. after the hikers were dead. Could toxic material seep into the snow and affect the bodies' skin color?
Semyon and Lyudmila died of internal bleeding shortly after receiving their rib cage injuries which seems to limit the timeline to that night (i assert). Rustem probably died of internal bleeding compounded with cold.
For more on nitric acid just google it, e.g. https://journals.lww.com/em-news/Fulltext/2002/02000/The_Diagnosis__Nitric_Acid_Burn.20.aspx
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I know this conversation is quite a while ago now. ...Just reading through and thought I'd add my 2 cents worth: that I always considered the grey foam on Doroshenko's cheek to be due to hypothermia-induced pulmonary edema, which, although certainly not ubiquitous in deaths of this kind, is not rare either.
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I know this conversation is quite a while ago now. ...Just reading through and thought I'd add my 2 cents worth: that I always considered the grey foam on Doroshenko's cheek to be due to hypothermia-induced pulmonary edema, which, although certainly not ubiquitous in deaths of this kind, is not rare either.
Thanks i've learnt something.
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Also, something I've been meaning to bring up in a more general thread: I am very interested in the history of mountaineering in the Himalaya. In the course of my meanderings in the past few years on this subject, I've come across several photos of corpses frozen in cold, dry places. Where they were exposed to sun and wind, very often the flesh seems to turn a strange brownish orange colour. I won't post here, but anyone can do an image search for "Mt Everest Hannelore Schmatz" to see an example of what I mean.
Now, about the white hair...next subject for research. wink1
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Thanks i've learnt something.
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Zorah: hiker, wilderness explorer, pathophysiology geek, nurse. At your service thanky1 wink1
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Thanks i've learnt something.
Zorah: hiker, wilderness explorer, pathophysiology geek, nurse. At your service thanky1 wink1
kewl1
What's your opinion about the footprints? How can windblown snow (powder) at -10C and retain footprints for 3 weeks?
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Thanks i've learnt something.
kewl1
What's your opinion about the footprints? How can windblown snow (powder) at -10C and retain footprints for 3 weeks?
Raised footprints: because of the pressure of the weight coming down, the snow beneath the foot is compessed. Because it is more densely packed than the looser snow around, it will erode more slowly, comparatively. It doesn't occur in all conditions. I should try it in my front yard and see if I can produce some raised footprints.
I am by no means an expert on snow conditions. My instinct is to say that if there was some massive source of heat present, the footprint evidence would have looked different. There might have been a single identifiable level of melting (like from a flash of heat) that would have been obvious to the investigators.
Now I am wondering. What happens when a strong electrical surge hits a snowy area? Worthy of research... wink1
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Thanks i've learnt something.
kewl1
What's your opinion about the footprints? How can windblown snow (powder) at -10C and retain footprints for 3 weeks?
Raised footprints: because of the pressure of the weight coming down, the snow beneath the foot is compessed. Because it is more densely packed than the looser snow around, it will erode more slowly, comparatively. It doesn't occur in all conditions. I should try it in my front yard and see if I can produce some raised footprints.
I am by no means an expert on snow conditions. My instinct is to say that if there was some massive source of heat present, the footprint evidence would have looked different. There might have been a single identifiable level of melting (like from a flash of heat) that would have been obvious to the investigators.
Now I am wondering. What happens when a strong electrical surge hits a snowy area? Worthy of research... wink1
Careful with your research! whacky1
From my experience of skiing, wind blown powder at -10C and below doesn't compress like that. It has to be warmer, closer to 0C. It's my understanding that attempts to recreate the footprints during winter expeditions to the DP have failed.
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Thank you, Zorah, for your expertise. I respect Nigel's breadth of knowledge about the Dyatlov Pass Incident, but we're not in agreement on the cause of the group's death. He favors, I believe, a fatal release of nitric acid from a missile explosion. I and many others think a natural disaster or weather related phenomenon, or at least what the group believed was a disaster about to befall them, led to their terribly unprepared dash to the trees below. Your insights about orange colored skin, foam on the cheek and raised footprints help explain these mysteries as more naturally occurring. The cause of the group's death remains speculation, however, and probably always will.
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Thanks i've learnt something.
kewl1
What's your opinion about the footprints? How can windblown snow (powder) at -10C and retain footprints for 3 weeks?
Careful with your research! whacky1
From my experience of skiing, wind blown powder at -10C and below doesn't compress like that. It has to be warmer, closer to 0C. It's my understanding that attempts to recreate the footprints during winter expeditions to the DP have failed.
I spent my childhood and adolescence on cross country skis, spending several hours a week touring about on frozen lakes and nearby hills and fields. I can remember raised impressions of ski tracks. It seems to me that the type of snow mattered more than the overall air temperature at the time; fine dry powdery snow (which is indeed more common at low temperatures) would not hold impressions well. But if any snow with a high moisture content was present (that's not a technical term, just my attempt to qualify it), it would show tracks for a long time, including raised impressions after windy days.
Watch the headlines to see news of my experiments: "Mysterious Orbs and Light Flashes Spotted Over Western Canada"....hopefully I will survive unscathed. And with no new white hairs.