May 16, 2022, 08:51:41 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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1
Desire, envy, jealousy, fear, anger and violence are highly contagious feelings, they are very social material. Human beings are sound boxes for these phenomenons. We have special neurons called mirror neurons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron) which give us the ability both to learn and to compete. The group of hikers were so isolated, it was like they were closed in a cell, they had barely any escape. They were often agglomerated like a unique special social body, doomed to promiscuity during their holidays in the infinite spaces of the Urals as if they still were in a komunalka (communal apartment)...



"We were full up to the ceiling. First layer passengers sat on the seats, on a pile of skis, on backpacks. Second layer passengers sat on the backs of the seats, finding a place for legs on the shoulders of comrades"

And:"Two people per bed", "Had to lay down in beds by two", "We lay down with Zina on a spring bed"...

And in the tent: "Nobody wants to sleep by the stove. We agree that Yurka Kri (Krivonischenko) will sleep there. On the other side sleeps the person on duty (Sasha Kolevatov). Yurka couldn't stand the heat and after laying down for 1-2 min, he got up and moved to the second section cursing and accusing us of treason. After that they still argued about something for a long time"

And: "Had to travel on 3 levels. Kolka Tibo (Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle) had to push his body to the ceiling, Olva first stood in (illegible word) position, but soon she couldn't stand it anymore and got down on her knees.".

They are agglomerated to each other at a level where they can't even physically stand it anymore...

Their only privacy was their private diary and silent thoughts. And not really the diaries as Krivonishenko knew the content of Dubinina's private diary and wrote about it in the group's diary (!!!) : "Ognev is an old friend, he is described in Lyuda Dubinina's private diary." and Yudin crossed out the politically dangerous sentence about innocent people sent to the gulag in his. No other escape but the silent thoughts...

But in the silent thoughts, it was certainly boiling up too : the sadness of Lyuda, the jealousy of Zina, the revolt of Thibeaux, the desire of Dyatlov, etc.

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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Игорь Б. on May 15, 2022, 05:15:07 PM »
How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved?
Никто никуда не перемещался. Было два укрытия - настил из деревьев и снежная пещера. Расстояние между ними 11 метров. Сделать одно укрытие на 9 человек в тех условиях было невозможно.
Кроме того, очевидно, что у них было два разных подхода к строительству снежных укрытий.

P.S. Любые версии с убийством опровергаются пятнами Вишневского:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=107726
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90162
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Altercation on the pass / About the level of frustration within the group
« Last post by Charles on May 15, 2022, 04:17:54 PM »
We can find many clues in the diaries about the level of frustration within the group of hikers.

⇒January 23 « The boys solemnly swore not to smoke the entire trip. I wonder how much will power they have to get by without cigarettes? » Z. Kolmogorova in Group’s diary

So the smokers have experienced a frustration proportionated to their respective addictions.

⇒ On Jan 24, there was a Ist discussion about love provoked by Z. Kolmogorova  :  « we started to discuss love issues, talking about kisses in particular. We talked all kinds of nonsense, of course; everyone was interested, everyone wanted to speak out, eventually trying to out-shout each other and prove their own opinion. Sasha Kolevatov was the best in our debates. Probably he expressed not only his own thoughts but, anyway, he obviously won »

⇒ On Jan 25 evening, there was a IInd discussion about love : « whole evening there was a discussion about love about friendship, about dances and other things, etc. I talked a lot    about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all nonsense. » and « during the meal, a discussion arose about the rights of boys and girls to freedom, etc. In my opinion, such discussions lead nowhere. But we are doing it anyway, to vent the soul. We went to bed late »

⇒ On Jan 28 evening, there was a IIIrd discussion about love : « Then we resume our discussions, mostly about love. Someone comes up with an idea that we need a special notebook for ideas that we might come up with.  Conspiring, we started going into the tent two people at a time. »

⇒ On Feb 01, leaflet with Final statements about love : « GREETING TO THE XXI CONVENTION WITH INCREASED BIRTHRATE AMONG HIKERS ! », « PHILOSOPHICAL SEMINAR on the topic of « Love and Hiking » takes place daily on the tent premises (central hall). Lectures are given by Dr Thibeaux and postdoctorate of Love science Dubinina ».

Ist discussion is about kisses.
IInd discussion is about the rights of boys and girls to freedom.
IIIrd discussion is about pretending to be couples and to sleep together.
Final statement is about pregnancy.

There was a crescendo in the issues discussed by the group: from kisses to impregnation... and discussed among young people that were not sexually active at that time and maybe ever. We know that Zina was still desiring Doroshenko, but she was also sensitive to the charm of Yudin, Slobodin and Ognev, we know that Dyatlov was very probably desiring Zina, and maybe Krivonishenko was also desiring her.

Desire could have raged as a fire in the group (as they were always burning themselves with the stove, burning jacket and mittens, and finally burning their own bodies at the cedar), and I think it had been a continuous ground for all events which happened within the group. And there was this other continuous ground of tobacco deprivation. They were making their path on a ground of sexual frustration and nicotin deprivation... All particular arguments, quarrel, conflict, rudeness happened on this background.

And they fueled the frustration. Lyuda wrote twice about it : "Zhenya often picks on me, sometimes he even says offensive things. He seem to consider me foolish. It's my fault that I like to add fuel to the fire, damn me." and "then there is Valya, who plays the guitar well (many play) and about whom I jokingly said that I like him"... describing what Gregory Bateson called "double bind": the lighting of desire simultaneously with the denial of it*... a highly destructive kind of relationship and able to trigger extreme reactions (from schizophrenia to school-shooting). They also played a theater of desire, satisfaction and frustration: "Conspiring, we started going into the tent two people at a time."... Two people at a time, a boy and a girl, leaving five boys outside the tent... playing the role of the rejected and frustrated. If one of these five not elected boys was in love with Zina or Lyuda, the simple distribution of roles was enough for jealousy to burn him. And if the others had no feelings, the fiction was enough to initiate at least some romantic interest and even desire.

So we have a general ground of sexual frustration and nicotin deprivation, and particular times of intense fueling of the frustration, going crescendo, with ideas from kisses to impregnation, widening the gap between the nothing of reality and the fiction of satisfaction.

When Slobodin noted fragments of the lyrics of Othello's song in his diary, he left quite a strange testimony... because when reading the whole song we find :

12 Othello went into a terrible rage -
Killed everyone who was in the area,
And in the end he stabbed himself...

13 Let Othello act boldly
Or cowardly - you be the judge
But the Moor - he did his job

Lyuda was playing Carmen with Valya as Don José, seducing then rejecting, and Othello's name was heard by the group and was with the group as a possibility. Dyatlov alone had to deal with six obvious or potential rivals : Doroshenko, Slobodin, Yudin, Krivonishenko, Kolevatov and Ognev (see msg17671). The material provided by the diaries is an accumulation of conditions for a tragedy... And these idiots were infatuated with themselves, proud to be "tourists" and to light envy in the eyes of school children: "Decided to read talk to the children in 1st and 2nd grades about tourism. They liked our stories and things very much, and they became very attached to us. Time flew by till 6 pm in the company of our new young friends. The children bonded so much, especially to Zina, that they parted with tears." and "We went and talked to the schoolchildren, then they all saw us off, even burst into tears, didn't want to let us go"... And they were absolutely unable to understand that they could trigger other kind of reactions with Ognev's gang of outcasts and semi-criminals than just children's tears, if behaving with the same clumsiness... Lyuda wrote about Ognev as "the most interesting object here on the site"... Ognev and Valya were considered as "objects" by the young townspeople (and Ognev a bit as an animal when photographed by Krivonishenko)... "Objects" without feeling, unable to experience desire, suffering, sadness, humiliation, anger, revenge ? Or able to ?

Somebody wrote in the unknown diary : " Sometimes Mansi writings appear on trees. In general, all sorts of obscure mysterious characters. There is slogan for ​​our campaign, "In a country of mysterious signs." If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place." And yes, they could not read the signs... they were so materialistically idealistic, positively illiterates in the matter of feelings as Yudin wrote : "but in general I couldn't feel the Person, his soul. Maybe that's why everybody that saw the movie was saying: "It feels so good, nothing is missing, they say "like life itself"... But "the Person", the most essential was missing... Yudin also wrote about the movie Paren: "there are not living people on the screen full of thoughts, capable of creating stories themselves, but some automatic machines tuned to a spec. program"... And Lyuda wrote about Ognev as an "object"... What if "machines" and "objects" suddenly revealed to be "persons" ? Like when wild animals suddenly turn against their guards after years of submission** ?

If we need to find inside the group the conditions of a tragedy, it's easy to find them...

Charles

-------

*Developing the elements provided by Lyuda would give :

- I love you. - I love you too. - I was joking ! - I was not. - But I don't love you. Anyway, what a funny joke, isn't it  ? - It was not fun for me. - Zina, listen, Valya thought I was serious ! As if a Soviet princess like me, being the daughter of a deputy manager of the trust Sverdlesdrev MLP, being a student in UPI university as an Engineering and Economics Major, could love a miserable outcast logger like him ! I will marry a cavalry general like Lili Brik did, not a poet released from prison ! Valya baby, you have no chance to ever bond with me, and when growing old, you will learn that women sometimes like to check their power of seduction and to reassure themselves at the expense of victims like you. Yes, I told you I loved you, but actually I don't. No hard feelings, huh! I will send you a postcard from the big city, Valya baby, you will have to wait and check everyday at the post office... and maybe I'll change my mind again and I'll write sweet words to you, who knows ?

** In 1959, the negation of personal and individual issues had already reached its maximum, people could not stand it no more, it was de-stalinization, the release of so many prisoners ("they threw in jail everybody that they could catch, innocent, then they figured it out and cleaned up, everybody was given rushed amnesty"), they could not stand no more injustice, Yudin noted that Vishay was ready for strike and revolt (like in the gulags of Vorkuta, Norilsk and Kengir in 1953 and 1954 just following Stalin's death)... then what could have been the feelings of Thibeaux after being unfairly punished ? His innocent father was unfairly punished by Stalin, and now again, they unfairly punished the innocent son ? Did he just begin to write a diary ? Refuse to sew the tent then finally obey ? And that's all ? Or was Thibeaux in the inside of his heart in a state of absolute rage and revolt ?
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Ziljoe on May 15, 2022, 03:04:45 PM »
Hi Jean Daniel Reuss,

I support the hypothesis that the fatal injuries could have been caused by the collapse of snow on top of the ravine 4.

I assume that some of, or all the clothing on the fir bed  were from the 2 Yuri's?. What exactly happened at the den , we will never know. However we have four bodies and a number of fractures.

It is not because it was hardened snow that fell on top of them but rather the reporting of hard snow when digging the bodies out that indicates that there had been a snow collapse.

The position of the bodies also suggests that they were perhaps lying in that position , perhaps cuddling each other. It is not that the snow collapsed at the actual den and there bodies migrated , rather the ravine 4 moved themselves to that location where the bodies were found.

Igor b goes into more detail about the specifics.

I am open to all hypothesis.
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Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on May 15, 2022, 12:28:08 PM »
                  Reply #59
.........................
I think that there is a high possibility that they were crushed after finding or digging a snow hole.

If I understand correctly you are supporting the hypothesis that the fatal injuries to the 4 of the Den are the consequences of a natural collapse of the hardened snow above them.

Conversely, you will be aware that I am a proponent of the criminal explanation for the DPI (the TOKEB theory). In other words, I am convinced that there is no problem with the homicide theory. Here is a remark that allows us to think that there was the intervention of other people.

First it seems that the 4 of the Den had decided to wait and hide in the ravine (small valley) near the cedar.


To be able to stay a long time in the Den without getting cold they had judiciously built 4 small beds of branches, (probably following the advice of Zolotaryov).



The bed of branches consisted of 14 fir tree branches and one birch, and on top were belongings and clothes.
The clothes included:
    One leg of a pair of black ski trousers;
    A thick brown woolen sweater;
    A white woolen jumper, made in China; and
    A pair of brown trousers tied at the ankles but flared open with a tear to widen them.


I then assume that you do not object to the visual reconstruction of Vasilii-Zyadik, who has certainly worked as rigorously as possible in constructing his instructive synthesized images.



Therefore a question is mandatory :

   How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved?

In 2013 Askinadzi published a letter in Ural Stalker magazine, in which he recalls that the distance between all the heads of those found in the brook was about 30 cm (about 11.5") – they were all very close to each other.

On the contrary, this grouping of the four corpses can easily be explained by the final action of "outsiders" who threw, or rather flung, chucked, the corpses into a place (or a hole like a pit) located below.

Once their work was done, the murderers wanted to tidy things up and also align the corpses to make absolutely for sure that there were 4 of them, because 9, minus the previous 5 = 4.
• Only Kolevatov was not quite dead yet and was able to turn a bit on Zolotaryov in a last and almost involuntary movement.
• By coincidence, there was a small difference in level at this point and Dubinina slipped and ended up in the bizarre kneeling position that we know.

mk :   December 04, 2020, 03:34:13 AM      Reply #7
it strikes me that the killers were rather unconcerned about making things look natural.
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..................................................................
 Maybe some of you have a theory, why the cuts were made, and why this way, either straight horisontal, or straight vertical way?
.................................................


Of course I have one theory. It allows us to reconstruct all the main lines of the DPI, even if some of the particular actions remain in doubt.
I call it the TOKEB theory in honour and gratitude to those who found the essential key elements.

TOKEB = Eduard Tumanov + Per Inge Oestmoen + Aleks Kandr + EBE + BottledBrunette

Summary in one single row :
 A sponsor or client from Vizhay, pays 3 mercenary contract killers with the mission to kill the 9 hikers.

The overwhelming evidence of a surprise attack by brutish murderers, absolutely determined to leave no survivors, is categorised as a criminal theory and is therefore for various reasons (psychological, political.......) rejected by a majority of commentators.

At no time none of the 9 hikers would have damaged or cut the precious tent which was essential to their survival and which they had very often sewn back together. For the hikers the old tent was almost like a sacred object, at least during the hike in the snow.

It was obviously the attackers who on the morning of February 2, 1959, after having rested and eaten some of the hikers' provisions (inside the then undamaged tent), cut the canvas any way they could, before leaving off again in the direction of North-2.

Put yourself in the shoes of the attackers in the tent on the morning of 2 February 1959. They are celebrating their hard-won victory, but they are suffering painfully from the punches they received in the face from the 5 hikers who have damaged fists; (Kolgomorova, Slobodin, Doroshenko, Dyatlov, Krivonischenko in chronological order of disabling).

In the natural gestures of revenge, hatred and rage the attackers destroy and randomly lacerate the last symbol of the hikers (who did not die without a hard resistance).

But the tent does not fall in small pieces easily and the result of their destructive will is not very spectacular :


Moreover, according to Aleks Kandr, the missing part of the canvas was used by the attackers (murderers) to make a protective band (soldier's puttees), replacing the one lost near the Den.

For the unwritten TOKEB theory, see :
Eduard Tumanov : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0     +   videos
Aleks Kandr : http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
Per Inge Oestmoen : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=325
Jean Daniel Reuss : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=613
EBE : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=984
BottledBrunette : https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=326
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Igor Dyatlov / Re: Igor and Zina a couple?
« Last post by Charles on May 14, 2022, 01:13:53 PM »
Zina wrote she was still in love with Doroshenko, but it was an unrequited love and she showed signs of interest with Slobodin, Ognev and Yudin.

On Dyatlov's side, it might be different as the rescuers found "Dyatlov notebook with a photo of Z. Kolmogorova" and as :

⇒January 26 « Had breakfast in the dining room, goulash and tea. When they handed us the lukewarm tea, Gosya (Igor) Dyatlov said with a smirk: "If the tea is cold, then go drink it outside, it will be hot." » Krivonishenko in Group’s diary

⇒January 26 « We got up late, very late. Rustik Slobodin and I are on duty. » Z. Kolmogorova’s diary

So « they » means  « Rustik and Zina ».  On Jan. 26, Dyatlov challenged the group preventively threatening anyone who would complain against Rustik and Zina ? Protecting both of them from any taunts or critics ? Or Zina in particular ? But later, in the evening of Jan. 30, leaving Lyuda to her sad fate ?

We have here strong clues that lead us to believe that Dyatlov had romantic feelings for Zina. And if so, he had at least four rivals (Doroshenko, Slobodin, Yudin and Ognev). And some occasions to experiment the burn of jealousy :

- when seeing Zina wearing Doroshenko's mittens : "Today I wore Yuri's mittens, but how I did not want to! I was told that is not good not to accept them, so I took them." and when reading in the leaflet "Doroshenko and Kolmogorova" mentioned together.

- when seeing Zina learning to play the mandolin with Slobodin : "Rustic plays the mandolin very well, I really enjoy listening to him." "And Rustic plays the mandolin very well.", "I'm lately somehow very deeply affected by music, guitar, mandolin and other." wrote Zina and "Zina even tries to learn to play mandolin under guidance of our musician Rustik "

- when reading in the group's diary that Zina would suffer of Yudin's departure : "Yuri Yudin goes back home today. It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it."

- when observing Zina's interest with Ognev : "his beard is ginger, ginger, and his eyes are also ginger, and brown" wrote Zina in her diary. Zina repeated the word "ginger" as she used to repeat words when something took hold of her mind like "snow, snow, snow, snow on the banks frozen river snow snow" and very probably "Yes, Mansi, Mansi, Mansi. This word comes up more and more often in our conversations." and noted so precisely the color of Ognev's eyes... The interest of Zina with Ognev could not have been unseen by Dyatlov.

And we could add Krivonishenko as a potential rival if we consider that Zina can be identified on 12 of his 33 photos (1/3 of Krivonishenko's photos includes Zina) and is the central and main subject of 5 of his photos (frames 11, 19, 35, 8, 21).

And Kolevatov too as : "we started to discuss love issues, talking about kisses in particular. We talked all kinds of nonsense, of course; everyone was interested, everyone wanted to speak out, eventually trying to out-shout each other and prove their own opinion. Sasha Kolevatov was the best in our debates. Probably he expressed not only his own thoughts but, anyway, he obviously won"... Zina having written to her friend Lidiya Grigoryeva : "Gosya Dyatlov works in the laboratory, completes the diploma project in practice, not much of a life, not friends with anybody (of the girls of course)."

So if Dyatlov was in love with Zina, he had to deal with 6 obvious or potential rivals : Doroshenko, Slobodin, Yudin, Krivonishenko, Kolevatov and Ognev.
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General Discussion / The cuts on tent simply doesn't make any sense
« Last post by Sunny on May 13, 2022, 05:08:33 AM »
I can accept some  cuts were maybe made in panic, in a hurry. But those horisontal cuts up in the tent are made (to my opinion) on a calm and careful way. Not in any kind of hurry or panic. This just doesn't add up at all, if you assume there was anykind of avalance or slab avalance. Or any kind of fear for their lives. Someone said the tent fabric must be tight to make those long vertical cuts. I agree. It is very difficult to cut long straight cuts if the tent is lying down on top of you, there's snow piled on it, and it's pitch dark. I don't know how some people think this is how it happened...And there's no point trying to cut the tent in complete straight line, like some cuts are made. Why? For what purpose? If you need fresh air in tent, you open the door. If you need to peak out, you peak from door way. If you  need to get out, or get injured bodies out, you go from door. If the door is shut, like it may have been by snow, then one cut-no matter how it is made- should be enough for all to get out.
I can't read all the other theories on this web site about the tent and the cuts. Maybe some of you have a theory, why the cuts were made, and why this way, either straight horisontal, or straight vertical way?
9

Congratulations Charles. You have certainly pointed out a remarkable coincidence:
  Владимира Герцена   (French: Guertsen / English: Herzen ) is certainly both :

 • The pharmacist, apothecary-artist, from Vizhay, married to a German woman, about whom Yuri Yudin writes in his diary entry [img 10] on his return from North-2 after 28 January 1959.
 • The artist, whose works are exhibited in the Karaganda Museum of Fine Arts (Kazakhstan), according to this web page published in 2013 :

https://time.kz/articles/grim/2013/12/12/vtoraja-zhizn-dlja-shesterenok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjI2qVlScBw&feature=youtu.be


During their visit to Vizhay, on 25 and 26 January 1959, the 10 hikers had no particular reason to be interested in either the small pharmacy in Vizhay, or in
 Владимира Герцена himself who was not famous at that time.

On his return from North-2 (i.e. after 28 January) Yuri Yudin does not seem to have had a camera at his disposal and did not leave any photographs.

After the liberation of many Zeks, ordered by Khrushchev from 1953 onwards, some people, in principle liberated, remained under residence near the camps.
Thus, there may have been a relationship between the Ivdelag administration near Vizhay and the Karlag administration near Karaganda.

This could possibly explain why a pharmacist and artist from Vizhay in 1959 is particularly appreciated in Karaganda in 2013.

On the the involvment of drugs in the tragedy.
Eduard Tumanov : ...hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders...
I already ruled out a fight   between them  because even in 2022 there is no drug that induces the Capgras syndrome.
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8382#msg8382
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8762#msg8762
10
General Discussion / Hoy Ekva 733
« Last post by Teddy on May 12, 2022, 04:08:08 AM »
melissa whisler whispered to me in the Shoutbox  "Hoi Eckwa on a map or photo".
Guessing that she is asking me for a map or photos of Hoy Ekva here is what I have:


film №5 frame №20 (photo by Semyon Zolotaryov)


film №4 frame №23 (photo by Semyon Zolotaryov)


film №3 frame №7 (photo by Thibeaux-Brignolle)


film №1 frame №11 (photo by Krivonischenko)


film №1 frame №14 (photo by Krivonischenko)



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