Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement
Question on military involvement
Charles:
nothing here
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Charles on June 08, 2022, 01:40:03 PM --- Reply #9
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I bet that dog had no license...
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PS: And maybe Blinov's group had "things for hunting" not only for hunting, but also for security. As when sailing for pleasure in some regions of the globe (mainly South Asia and Indonesia), Westerners often take a gun on their boat, just in case of encounter with locals having bad intentions.
--- End quote ---
Of course I know that there were, in the civil society, i.e. without considering the army, a lot of firearms everywhere in the USSR. I do not understand what you are saying.
•• There were repeating firearms which were the normal equipment of the KGB, of the various police forces of the Soviet government and possibly of many civil servants working in isolated positions: prospectors, geologists, foresters, works inspectors...etc.
•• There were legally held hunting rifles by the many Russian hunters and also by the Mansis, as the Soviet administration was aware that hunting is an intrinsic part of the Mansi way of life.
•• There were illegal weapons held by organised criminal groups, Stalinist political opponents, foreign minorities under house arrest, outlaw traffickers. For example for trafficking in gold, precious stones, rare metal ores...
•• Finally there were citizens who were not in order because all the administrative steps to obtain a legal permit were too difficult.
Citation from Teddy :
very often those who guarded ended up behind bars for various crimes. And those who were in prison, after their release, often remained to live and work in Ivde............l....
............While finding a trick to keep or resell the firearm they used when they were guards at a Gulag camp.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Citation from Nikolay Varsegov and Natalya Varsegova:
And what about the scandal with the helicopter pilots who refused to transport the bodies of the last hikers found ?......
Answer by Vladimir Askenadzi :
- Yes there was such a situation. To transport bodies according to the instructions, we needed a special packing, but we did not have it. And here for the first time Colonel Ortyukov took out a pistol, threatening the pilots. I did not know that he had a gun. But the pilots still refused to board the corpses without the proper boxing. They were transported the next day, when special bags were provided....
And Colonel Ortyukov, because he was a thoughtful and wise man, seeing that his threat was useless, simply put his pistol back in his pocket without getting angry.
On 1958 summer hiking and water trek, category respectively III and II in Central Sayan Mountains....
Dubinina was shot in the leg due to careless handling of a weapon.
Apparently the bullet must have been of small calibre, because 6 months later Dubinina was not burdened by the disability of his injured leg.
This unintentional injury did not demonstrate the need to carry a gun, but it does suggest that Dubinina was not a softy.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Citation from Charles :
I bet that dog had no license....
Dogs often carry various objects in their jaws, either spontaneously or because they have been trained to do so
(hunting dogs trained to retrieve animals).
But, unless I am mistaken, no dog is capable of effectively using a gun to neutralise an opponent. This is because dogs do not have arms and hands for gripping.
A dog could not, at the same time (simultaneously), aim and pull the trigger (unlike other animals like monkeys).
Citation from Charles :
Carrying firearms was so easy and common in the Urals,...
A distinction must be made between officially licensed weapons and illegally held weapons without documents.
In the vicinity of the Ivdellag - which was being dismantled in 1959 - I do not think that the KGB, as well as the various governmental police forces, were joking about the strict observance of the weapons regulations.
The USSR was very different from the USA !
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Citation from Charles :
And maybe Blinov's group had "things for hunting" not only for hunting, but also for security.
I agree that a shotgun can be useful in the event of an attack by a terrifying wolverine, a bear or an elk.
Note however that Doroshenko only used a hammer to drive back a (supposedly large) bear.
Citation from Teddy :
One day she [Kolgomorova] was watching him [Doroshenko] putting up their tent on the edge of a forest when she noticed a large brown bear approaching. Zina let out a shout of alarm. In the next moment, she saw Yuri fearlessly advancing on the beast with only a geology hammer in his hand. He didn’t pursue the animal for long, but when he strode back to the camp......
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Citation from Charles :
And maybe Blinov's group had "things for hunting"....
1) There are several photos of the Blinov group, but apparently no one is carrying a rifle in these photos.
2) On the other hand, the category III trekking activities, which were encouraged and supported by the UPI sports committee (or Route Commission) to emphasize the sports skills and moral qualities of endurance of the participants.
Hunting activities with rifles were not mentioned, but we can assume that these extra-curricular activities (hunting) were not explicitly prohibited.
3) The fact is that Dyatlov, who had taken the necessary administrative steps to obtain a voucher for the fame of the 21st Congress of the PCSU, did not consider it necessary to ask for an authorisation to take a shotgun with his group.
4) It should also be taken into account that the Mansis could not be seriously upset by the presence on their usual territory of 9 joyful and harmless young people without any gun.
5) Whereas the arrival of 9 armed Russians could seem more worrying for the Mansis who could fear the announcement of a new Soviet regulation more restrictive for them.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°Citation from Charles :
As when sailing for pleasure in some regions of the globe (mainly South Asia and Indonesia), Westerners often take a gun on their boat, just in case of encounter with locals having bad intentions
••• Dyalov's group consisted of honest Soviet citizens, not of westerners.
••• Dyalov's group was not sailing in South Asia or Indonesia, but travelling on skis on snow-covered ground in the Urals.
••• In civilized countries it is not allowed to shoot with a gun at local men you meet who displease you.
But indeed I have no idea whether Slobodin and his father carried a rifle on their journey from Frunze to Andijan in 1958.
Citation from Teddy :
« Rustem Slobodin was not only a good athlete, but he could take risks. In the summer of 1958 Rustem together with his father made a traverse from Frunze (present Bishkek) to Andijan, where Rustem's older brother worked. This 300-kilometer trek took place in mountainous sparsely populated area of western Tien Shan. In the less inhabited lands when ethnic Russians travelers meet with Kyrgyz, Uighurs, Uzbeks, Dungans - people that they have nothing in common, words like "internationalism" and "brotherhood" don't carry any weight. In the summer of 1958 Rustem Slobodin and the native inhabitants of the Tien Shan didn't just have different mentality - there was a real civilization gap between them. Hatred doesn't describe it, does not convey the specifics of the inter-ethnic relations. Russians were simply envied for their white skin, the smell of soap and the fact that they did not have fleas.
When there are no witnesses to the encounter, everything is possible.
Nevertheless, both father and son made it through these dangerous mountains.
They relied on their own strength and were ready to stand up for themselves.
This trip establishes Rustem as courageous, hardened, dependable and adventurous.»
Charles:
nothing here
Ziljoe:
Hi Charles.
Good post. My only comment would be when you refer to:
Lyuda was so wrong about District 41, it was not "the last place of civilization"
I think she meant it in the context of settlement or people living before they went into the mountains? I've referred to this myself when going out into the wilds. Civilization is where there is established shop, pub, home , house, warmth etc. Doesn't mean it civilised in the bigger context. An alien could watch us from space and say our planet is uncivilised because we can't feed and water our population and the powers that be keep bombing and killing each other?
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Charles on June 07, 2022, 01:13:43 AM ---
Because leaving bullet wounds or knife wounds make a totally different case. The condition of the success was not only not to leave cartridges cases behind but not to leave bullet wounds at all.
[...]
Not to use the firearm against a hiker was one of the only conditions to succeed. The attackers could fail many things but they had to kill all the hikers and to leave no bullet and knife wounds. It is not difficult to follow only two instructions. The attackers did not have to complete a list of 10 or 20 obligations, there were only two. And the hikers were tourists, intellectuals, with beautiful and soft hands, working in warm libraries and engineering companies... exhausted after a few days of trekking.
--- End quote ---
Precisely.
It is very clear that if there had been bullet wounds, the operation would have been a failure because it would have been obvious that the students were murdered.
That is the reason why the attackers did not use firearms for the killing: The intelligent, brilliantly orchestrated plan was to make the whole operation look like an accident. The operation would have been perfect, if there had not occurred a sudden rise in temperature during the night of February 2. Because of the rise of temperature, the students did not freeze to death and had to be hunted down and killed.
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