Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement
Question on military involvement
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 06, 2022, 09:23:07 AM ---
Obviously, Kolgomorova, Slobodin, Doroshenko, Dyatlov, Krivonischenko rushed at the attacker who was in front of them, and thus were able to strike with all their strength with their fists, for a (too) short time,
So it would have been psychologically impossible for the attacker, if he had held a loaded gun, not to use his weapon.
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461
--- End quote ---
In my opinion it is most likely that the attackers were professional, trained killers on a mission to eradicate what was a potential threat to state security - if the students had observed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about. Their possible divulging state secrets to a friend, family member or spouse was a risk that could not be taken.
Trained special forces personnel do not react like "normal" people. They are able to keep calm when attacked, and the students would have no chance with their fists in close combat against professional killers.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Manti on June 05, 2022, 07:18:19 PM --- Reply #5
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• Personally I don't think the military would harm them in any way, they had no reason to.
• But if they did, they would also cover it up properly and not leave bodies lying around to be found.
--- End quote ---
Yes Manti, with Askenadzi I can say :
- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force could kill the nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions. Well, again, these inexplicable injuries. Don't ask me, I don't know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
But unlike Askenadzi I can say : You may ask me because I have put together mostly historical arguments to also be able to tell :
- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that it is completely absurd to assume that it was the KGB - or any other official structure organized by the Kremlin - who murdered the 9 hikers.
Obviously, the murderers were (or were paid by) enemies of the USSR or of the Krushchev's regime. (the Thaw).
But it is necessary to have understood the difference between Stalin and Khrushchev, between the NKVD and the KGB, and to have at least looked at the secret report of February 24, 1956.
Only, all this is long and tedious to write in details. But you may ask me ....
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 22, 2022, 04:56:04 AM --- Reply #16
............ trained killers on a mission ...................
...............................................................
the students would have no chance with their fists in close combat against professional killers.
--- End quote ---
Yes ! The students would have no chance with their fists in close combat against trained killers.
But the real question is to know who were these trained killers or by whom were they paid.
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If the students had observed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about
It would rather be illegal activities like gold trafficking or criminal agreements for fraudulent misappropriation of materials
In any case nothing that could explain the intervention of the KGB to kill the hikers.
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what was a potential threat to state security
60 years after the DPI we are sure that nothing existed, neither in the Auspiya valley, nor on the slope of Kholat Syakhl which could have been a potential threat to state security .
Strategic issues affecting state security : Atomic bombs A and H, elaboration of strategic materials, Plutonium, Titanium for submarines, chemical weapons, biological weapons, missiles and aircraft, automatics, radar, electronics, manufacturing process of titanium metallurgy for submarines.....
require large installations with a lot of delicate or complicated equipment and a lot of skilled personnel.
Except in exceptional cases, even if he or she had held in his hand a thick report bearing on each page the red TOP SECRET stamp, a friend, family member or spouse would not have understood anything about the symbols and formulas representing the phase changes of Plutonium 239.
I have already provided some arguments to support the impossibility that the hickers could have represented a threat to the security of the state.
Theories Discussion ---> Altercation on the pass ---> Altercation on the pass : November 21, 2020, 06:57:01 PM ==> Reply #59
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg11147#msg11147
Sensitive information is never left freely in the wild but is guarded by men armed with guns in tightly guarded locations.
Those responsible for keeping the secret know at all times who is entrusted with sensitive documents or samples, that must be locked in a secure vault when not in use.
In the USSR sensitive information was guarded in certain areas of the secret cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_city
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For France, I can give you my personal experience on the treatment of secrecy for the first French H-bomb, Canopus, on August 24, 1968.
But I am afraid that this takes us away from the "WHO" and "WHY" issues of the DPI massacre.
I worked at the Limeil CEA - DAM center from 1966 to 1971
CEA = Commission for Atomic Energy.
French Atomic Energy Commission has now become "French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission
DAM = Military applications division.
DAM builds the nuclear weapons of the French military
Limeil was essentially devoted to Theoretical Research on Nuclear Charges and to the Development of Theoretical and Experimental Means necessary for their study (lasers and computers).
Using lasers, the center studied laser-matter interactions, including inertial confinement fusion, of great military interest.
In 1996 the government announced the permanent closure of the Centre de Limeil, but the buildings remained and the trees grew.
On Google Earth, I just checked that the Limeil center remains blurred despite the declassification.
Position = 48° 44' 28" N and 2° 29' 10" E
On January 27, 1966, the President of the Republic (General de Gaulle) had visited the center of Limeil and had reprimanded the director Pierre Billaud.
Stop worrying about the A-bomb (fission: Uranium 235 or Plutonium 239). Now I need the H-bomb (fusion: Lithium 6 deuteride) since the USA, the USSR and the UK have already had it for a long time.
(Of course these are not the exact words).
The director Pierre Billaud (left) wears his identification badge but not General de Gaulle (President of the French Republic and head of the army).
But the H-bomb is more complicated than the A-bomb !
The Wikipedia article gives a good insight into the subject (all information is correct but declassified).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermonuclear_weapon
The Limeil center (commune of Limeil-Brévannes) where I worked from October 1966 to 1971. You can guess the fence that surrounds the different buildings.
The filtering of the entries was done at the guard post on the left corner.
The photo found by chance on the internet dates from 1966.
My building is in the foreground and slightly to the right.
My office was on the second floor, the second window from the left of the building, above the first-floor window with an orange curtain.
Here is what I saw from my window, the photo is from 2009 and the trees have grown !
Excuse me for these memories of youth from 56 years ago ...
There were there Confidential Defense, Secret Defense and Top Secret reports and it is to make understand that it does not look like the Auspiya valley
Ziljoe:
Hi Jean Daniel Reuss
Interesting , as always, I don't know if it a problem my end but the last 3 photos are not loading?
Manti:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 24, 2022, 03:49:47 PM ---
If the students had observed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about
It would rather be illegal activities like gold trafficking or criminal agreements for fraudulent misappropriation of materials
In any case nothing that could explain the intervention of the KGB to kill the hikers.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°what was a potential threat to state security 60 years after the DPI we are sure that nothing existed, neither in the Auspiya valley, nor on the slope of Kholat Syakhl which could have been a potential threat to state security .
--- End quote ---
Yes I really agree with this.
They might have for example seen illegal gold mining. In fact, some of the students being geologists, the "wild Ural gold" might have been what drew them to the area. Because it wasn't natural beauty. There are many prettier areas of the Urals and other mountain ranges where they could have gone.
So they might have found a mine but unfortunately also someone there who found it before them. It's a possibility...
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 22, 2022, 04:56:04 AM --- Reply #15
.................................
In my opinion it is most likely that the attackers were professional, trained killers on a mission to eradicate what was a potential threat to state security - if the students had observed something there in the Urals they were not supposed to know about. Their possible divulging state secrets to a friend, family member or spouse was a risk that could not be taken.
Trained special forces personnel do not react like "normal" people. They are able to keep calm when attacked, and the students would have no chance with their fists in close combat against professional killers.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 22, 2022, 04:48:39 AM --- Reply #16
--- Quote from: Charles on June 07, 2022, 01:13:43 AM ---Because leaving bullet wounds or knife wounds make a totally different case. The condition of the success was not only not to leave cartridges cases behind but not to leave bullet wounds at all.
Not to use the firearm against a hiker was one of the only conditions to succeed. The attackers could fail many things but they had to kill all the hikers and to leave no bullet and knife wounds. It is not difficult to follow only two instructions. The attackers did not have to complete a list of 10 or 20 obligations, there were only two........
--- End quote ---
It is very clear that if there had been bullet wounds, the operation would have been a failure because it would have been obvious that the students were murdered.
That is the reason why the attackers did not use firearms for the killing: .... was to make the whole operation look like an accident......
--- End quote ---
---> Not to use the firearm against a hiker was one of the only conditions to succeed.
---> It is very clear that if there had been bullet wounds, the operation would have been a failure because it would have been obvious that the students were murdered.
Because you think that Russian investigators are fools and do not know that it is easy to commit murders without using guns or knives. !!!
Guns can be used to carry out massacres very quickly. This is undeniable. But where does this insane obsession with the necessity of guns come from ?
For trained killers, a few well adapted birch wood blunt objects are more than enough.
Besides, a good big stick is perhaps more reliable (for those who know how to use it) in close night combat than a shotgun with a (too) long barrel (which is more adapted to kill an elk at 50 meters).
If it was a condition of success not to use firearms, is it not simpler not to carry them at all?
---> ...........Was to make the whole operation look like an accident.
Since the attackers did not bother - or did not want - to do any staging, the operation did not look like an accident to objective people like Vladimir Askinadzi:
I do not know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death.
Only orders came from the Kremlin and the ridiculous conclusion was imposed.
(a spontaneous force that tourists were unable to overcome) .
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I cannot answer with certainty the questions "WHY?" and "WHO?" but there is one thing that I am certain of:
This is not the KGB.
Even assuming that the hikers could have seen - which is absurd - something that was a potential threat to state security .
It is absurd because as far as we can tell in 1959, the KGB personnel were quite competent and well trained and there were few smokers in its ranks.
And one of the tasks of the KGB was to dismantle and combat associations and organisations hostile to the Soviet regime in Moscow led by Khrushchev.
But before fighting and dismantling, one must first identify the enemy, which is often the most difficult task for the internal security services.
Dyatlov's group had left Sverdlovsk on 23 January with the agreement and encouragement of the Soviet authorities (CPSU, Route Commission, UPI leadership.........
And on 1 February the KGB had the mission to eliminate the 9 hikers immediately on the spot in an unusual way ?
How could the group have changed its status in 8 days, without having undergone mysterious influences?
Dyatlov's group was only small and unimportant pawns (except in a more complicated Rakitin-like scenario).
Dubinina could not have been the powerful conspiratorial mastermind capable of worrying Khrushchev.
There would necessarily have been much more powerful and dangerous accomplices or sponsors for the Khrushchev regime that the KGB had to identify. (Polish officers wanting to avenge Katyn, former Stalinist NKVD officers demonstrating against the Thaw, hostile Chechens or Lithuanians...etc.?)
The KGB would never have committed the monstrous fault of killing the hikers without having first interrogated them at length in premises adapted to intensive interrogation.
If it had killed the hikers before having properly interrogated them, the KGB would have definitely lost any possibility of tracing the real perpetrators or initiators of what could have been a threat to the security of the state.
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