Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement
Thoughts on the radiation testing report
Star man:
--- Quote from: sarapuk on February 27, 2019, 12:44:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on February 27, 2019, 08:49:19 AM ---A deeper mystery for me is why are people buying Geiger counters?
I used to have a metal detector when I was a kid, but never really wanted to go out looking for radiation. It’s a strange hobby neg1
--- End quote ---
I have plenty of Metal Detectors as well. Different types for different situations. And that is precisely the point Iam making re the GEIGER COUNTER that was used at the site of the Dyatlov Incident. We need to know the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER, because there were many varieties and some were used specifically for Military purposes and some for Geological purposes etc.
--- End quote ---
I see your point. I think there is only one way to be sure if there was some kind of radiatioactivity in the local environment at the time and that's to take samples now and test them, but I doubt anyone who has the means will do that. It's all about the tree rings.
Ryan:
--- Quote from: Star man on February 27, 2019, 12:22:35 AM ---Good analysis. Agree with your breakdown. Don’t forget though that caesium is much more mobile than strontium which is less soluble (similar to calcium) need to consider chemistry of the environment . Caesium will form soluble salt solutions like potassium but strontium will form compounds more like chalk.
Look at my thread on low yield Nuke test. Ultimately tree rings check for strontium 90 would confirm or disprove local nuclear contamination at the time of the incident.
--- End quote ---
That's a good point about environmental mobility of Cs. It is more water soluble. I had considered whether it was possible that nearly all the Cs washed away, leaving the Sr behind. But I'm having a hard time believing that this happened.
First, looking at existing nuclear environmental catastrophes like Chernobyl and Fukushima, the Cs didn't just get washed away, leaving behind the Sr-90. In the case of Chernobyl, it's been well over 30 years. The time from Feb 1 to May 5, 1959 doesn't seem like enough time.
Second, contaminants are particulates, but they often aren't uniform in composition, based on how they formed. They may contain trace Cs and Sr in addition to uranium, fuel cladding, graphite, etc. in the case of a reactor accident, or the bomb casing and other components, un-fissioned material, and (if a ground burst) soil. The other materials can shield the Cs from having direct contact with the environment, preventing it from selectively leaching out.
Fun experiment: I was able to use X-ray Fluorescence on Trinitite. I detected trace levels of barium. While Ba is a fission product, I suspect the majority of it came from the Baritol high explosives used in the Gadget device. That was a fun surprise to find!
I still think that either this wasn't contamination from nuclear fission, or the lab report failed to identify gamma emission.
If it wasn't fission contamination on the hikers, then Sr-90 is the pure beta emitter that comes to mind first. It is a very common radioisotope. I could see it being added to a conventional explosive mentioned in other military theories as a tracer.
I also don't know how the lab determined a lack of gamma. It is possible that all of the clothing fell into the low activity range where the beta can be detected above background, but the gamma is indistinguishable from background when one considers the relative insensitivity of a thin-walled metal geiger tube for gamma relative to beta.
Ryan:
--- Quote from: sarapuk on February 27, 2019, 04:19:49 AM ---Just a quicker for those who need time to read the interesting Post by Ryan. Old Soviet Geiger Counters were primarily designed for the event of a Nuclear War. However there were varieties of Geiger Counter and some were more sensitive than others. They differ a lot from more modern Geiger Counters. I have one of the modern Geiger Counters and its very sensitive but can also detect the after affects of a Nuclear Explosion, as in Nuclear War. So as far as the Dyatlov Incident is concerned we would need to know the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED. Good Post by Ryan.
--- End quote ---
Thanks! I also want to mention that there are plenty of radiation measurement devices other than Geiger counters, which have different sensitivities. Among them are scintillators, ion chambers, semiconductor detectors, etc.
I collect radiation measurement devices. I only have one Soviet Geiger counter, a DP-5V. What model do you have? The DP-5V employs two different Geiger tubes, one low range and one high range, so it can measure anything from normal background radiation to 200 R/h (at which point survival is questionable.)
Star man:
--- Quote from: Ryan on February 27, 2019, 09:30:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on February 27, 2019, 12:22:35 AM ---Good analysis. Agree with your breakdown. Don’t forget though that caesium is much more mobile than strontium which is less soluble (similar to calcium) need to consider chemistry of the environment . Caesium will form soluble salt solutions like potassium but strontium will form compounds more like chalk.
Look at my thread on low yield Nuke test. Ultimately tree rings check for strontium 90 would confirm or disprove local nuclear contamination at the time of the incident.
--- End quote ---
That's a good point about environmental mobility of Cs. It is more water soluble. I had considered whether it was possible that nearly all the Cs washed away, leaving the Sr behind. But I'm having a hard time believing that this happened.
First, looking at existing nuclear environmental catastrophes like Chernobyl and Fukushima, the Cs didn't just get washed away, leaving behind the Sr-90. In the case of Chernobyl, it's been well over 30 years. The time from Feb 1 to May 5, 1959 doesn't seem like enough time.
Second, contaminants are particulates, but they often aren't uniform in composition, based on how they formed. They may contain trace Cs and Sr in addition to uranium, fuel cladding, graphite, etc. in the case of a reactor accident, or the bomb casing and other components, un-fissioned material, and (if a ground burst) soil. The other materials can shield the Cs from having direct contact with the environment, preventing it from selectively leaching out.
Fun experiment: I was able to use X-ray Fluorescence on Trinitite. I detected trace levels of barium. While Ba is a fission product, I suspect the majority of it came from the Baritol high explosives used in the Gadget device. That was a fun surprise to find!
I still think that either this wasn't contamination from nuclear fission, or the lab report failed to identify gamma emission.
If it wasn't fission contamination on the hikers, then Sr-90 is the pure beta emitter that comes to mind first. It is a very common radioisotope. I could see it being added to a conventional explosive mentioned in other military theories as a tracer.
I also don't know how the lab determined a lack of gamma. It is possible that all of the clothing fell into the low activity range where the beta can be detected above background, but the gamma is indistinguishable from background when one considers the relative insensitivity of a thin-walled metal geiger tube for gamma relative to beta.
--- End quote ---
I think that after 60 years the only to be sure now is to take tree ring and soil core samples and undertake isotopic analysis. If it was environmental contamination from a nuclear device then they should find a spike in strontium 90 in 1959. Also higher concentration of caesium but more evenly distributed through the tree rings. This is what they found at Hiroshima.
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Ryan on February 27, 2019, 09:40:30 PM ---
--- Quote from: sarapuk on February 27, 2019, 04:19:49 AM ---Just a quicker for those who need time to read the interesting Post by Ryan. Old Soviet Geiger Counters were primarily designed for the event of a Nuclear War. However there were varieties of Geiger Counter and some were more sensitive than others. They differ a lot from more modern Geiger Counters. I have one of the modern Geiger Counters and its very sensitive but can also detect the after affects of a Nuclear Explosion, as in Nuclear War. So as far as the Dyatlov Incident is concerned we would need to know the EXACT TYPE OF GEIGER COUNTER USED. Good Post by Ryan.
--- End quote ---
Thanks! I also want to mention that there are plenty of radiation measurement devices other than Geiger counters, which have different sensitivities. Among them are scintillators, ion chambers, semiconductor detectors, etc.
I collect radiation measurement devices. I only have one Soviet Geiger counter, a DP-5V. What model do you have? The DP-5V employs two different Geiger tubes, one low range and one high range, so it can measure anything from normal background radiation to 200 R/h (at which point survival is questionable.)
--- End quote ---
I dont collect them but I have one for a variety of purposes. Its a USA Geiger Muller Counter Data Logger. GMC-320 plus. [ Nuclear Radiation detector ].
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