Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement
Reasons against a low yield nuclear test
Star man:
--- Quote from: sarapuk on March 05, 2019, 11:37:22 AM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on March 04, 2019, 11:42:31 PM ---
--- Quote from: sarapuk on March 04, 2019, 04:33:00 PM ---
--- Quote from: Puchiko on March 04, 2019, 03:22:02 PM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on March 04, 2019, 08:42:36 AM ---Also the injuries are not consistent with a shock wave blast. Would expect more significant secondary injuries and also evidence of damage to surrounding areas and trees. Injuries are more consistent with a fall. But why and how would more than one person succumb to the same type of fall? Unless their cognitive processes were affected?
--- End quote ---
Disclaimer: I don't have a complex theory, but I am leaning towards some sort of military involvement.
I think that the bomb was what scared them from the tent, but wasn't necessarily responsible for all of the injuries. Group hears bombs detonating in the distance, planes flying overhead. They leave the tent in a shell shocked panic, perhaps not fully rational. Maybe the smoke, debris and fog from the bomb makes it to the pass and impairs their vision, maybe not. They head for the forest to hide from planes (or maybe just run like a frightened animal away from the noise). A toxic smog makes it over the mountain, the guys later found with edemas on their lungs start suffocating, the others try to climb up the cedar but fall, causing some weird injuries. They crawl to the ravine seeking shelter from the elements. Zina and Igor try to make it to the tent (maybe they thought - rightly or wrongly that the danger had passed), but they die of exposure. Maybe there's a second explosion at some point and the shockwave causes some more weird injuries - but not necessarily.
What I'm trying to say is that the bomb need not have necessarily dropped directly on the site: in fact, the lack of damage to surroundings suggests it did not. Once they were confused and far from the tent, death was inevitable.
Ivanov later claimed some young pine trees at the edge of the forest had burn marks, this is often used to support "alien death ray" theories. It could also be some sign of a thermobaric bomb. But since it isn't documented at all, we can't draw conclusions from it.
--- End quote ---
The Nuclear Weapon theory has been discussed in other parts of the Forum. There is absolutely nothing that points to any kind of Nuclear Explosion that caused or led to the demise of the Dyatlov Group. In this Post you are suggesting that explosions some distance away scared them out of their Tent. Is that really feasible. I dont think so. Experienced out doors people are not going to abandon their refuge and put their lives at risk. Its been said many times and it appears to need repeating. They are not going to leave the Tent without proper clothing and equipment and walk a mile to their certain DEATH of exposure to the elements because they heard some explosions in the distance.
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There is evidence that points toward some kind of nuclear device - the radioactive contamination + the fact they brought Geiger counters when investigations were ongoing. There would be no physical evidence on the north east slope even if a device had exploded 1 to 2 km away. Probably not even much around the point of detonation.
In the nuke theory I have presented I suggest that it is the fallout gases that drives the group away from the tent.
I would only give my own theory 5:1 odds. However there is clear evidence of radioactive contamination and that IMO can’t be ignored or brushed off.
--- End quote ---
There is no real evidence that points to any particular theory. Just very vague information that may suggest this that or the other theories. We have to assume a lot in the Dyatlov Case. And assumptions as they say, can be dangerous. We assume that Lev Ivanov had a Geiger Counter that went crazy around the Tent. We assume that others involved in the search also brought in Geiger Counters. We assume that as a result of the Geiger Counters READOUTS it was decided to carry out further tests, on some of the bodies, at the Laboratories. We dont know why they only chose the Ravine 4 to carry out the tests on. As regards your theory and RADIATION FALLOUT GASES, the smell or taste affect would only be viable if a very large event had taken place, for instance as happened at CHERNOBYL. And no event of that scale happened in the area that the Dyatlov Group were hiking. And even if it had there would still have been time for them to get properly dressed and equipped.
--- End quote ---
The Geiger counter information for the tent is speculative. But it seems that the contamination of the clothes shows that all four hikers in the ravine were contaminated above background and this is after 3 months of potential washing in the steam. The contamination was not confined to the clothes of Krivonischenko or Kolevatov and according to Ryan above that expected for nuclear workers. Ryan’s analysis seems sound to me. So given the lack of evidence for the DPI I don’t think this should be overlooked
In my hypothesis the fallout cloud would contain a high concentration of nitrogen dioxide which is very toxic and would be cause immediate distress to the hikers forcing them to flee.
Regards
Star man
Ryan:
--- Quote from: Star man on March 05, 2019, 11:42:26 PM ---In my hypothesis the fallout cloud would contain a high concentration of nitrogen dioxide which is very toxic and would be cause immediate distress to the hikers forcing them to flee.
--- End quote ---
I'm curious what sources suggest that nuclear weapons produce enough nitrogen dioxide to poison humans? I do see sources that atmospheric tests produce nitrogen dioxide, but I question the relationship to the DPI.
Unfortunately, we have data points in the hundreds of thousands about what fission weapons do to human bodies. In my research on this, I've never heard of nitrogen dioxide poisoning as a cause of death. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were easily 5-15 times higher yield than the proposed tactical nuke detonation in DP, so I'd think any nuclear process that generated nitrogen dioxide would have made 5-15 times as much in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I've heard of people killed by the shock wave, and incinerated or having their skin burned off by heat. Buildings can collapse on people, or impale people with debris. The blast can trigger fires that kill people. But I've also heard that scientists were surprised to find survivors from near ground zero, who had been sheltered from the shock wave and heat. Supposedly, this inspired the US "Duck and Cover" civil defense campaign.
I'd also think that any nitrogen dioxide produced would be widely dispersed by the shock wave such that it wouldn't be at toxic concentrations.
My impression is that if a tactical nuke did go off in DP, the hikers clearly were shielded from the heat, or it would have been obvious to everyone. And if they survived the initial blast, nothing would remain that would threaten their survival in the short term or compel them to leave their campsite. (Even if they took lethal radiation doses, it takes a surprisingly long time to die from it; Slotin took 9 days to die after the "demon core" criticality incident.) I'm not seeing a mechanism whereby a poisonous nitrogen dioxide ground fog would remain, which would compel them to leave the area. But if there's evidence to the contrary, I'm definitely open to revising my opinion.
Star man:
--- Quote from: Ryan on March 08, 2019, 08:08:21 AM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on March 05, 2019, 11:42:26 PM ---In my hypothesis the fallout cloud would contain a high concentration of nitrogen dioxide which is very toxic and would be cause immediate distress to the hikers forcing them to flee.
--- End quote ---
I'm curious what sources suggest that nuclear weapons produce enough nitrogen dioxide to poison humans? I do see sources that atmospheric tests produce nitrogen dioxide, but I question the relationship to the DPI.
Unfortunately, we have data points in the hundreds of thousands about what fission weapons do to human bodies. In my research on this, I've never heard of nitrogen dioxide poisoning as a cause of death. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were easily 5-15 times higher yield than the proposed tactical nuke detonation in DP, so I'd think any nuclear process that generated nitrogen dioxide would have made 5-15 times as much in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I've heard of people killed by the shock wave, and incinerated or having their skin burned off by heat. Buildings can collapse on people, or impale people with debris. The blast can trigger fires that kill people. But I've also heard that scientists were surprised to find survivors from near ground zero, who had been sheltered from the shock wave and heat. Supposedly, this inspired the US "Duck and Cover" civil defense campaign.
I'd also think that any nitrogen dioxide produced would be widely dispersed by the shock wave such that it wouldn't be at toxic concentrations.
My impression is that if a tactical nuke did go off in DP, the hikers clearly were shielded from the heat, or it would have been obvious to everyone. And if they survived the initial blast, nothing would remain that would threaten their survival in the short term or compel them to leave their campsite. (Even if they took lethal radiation doses, it takes a surprisingly long time to die from it; Slotin took 9 days to die after the "demon core" criticality incident.) I'm not seeing a mechanism whereby a poisonous nitrogen dioxide ground fog would remain, which would compel them to leave the area. But if there's evidence to the contrary, I'm definitely open to revising my opinion.
--- End quote ---
Ryan,
I don’t know if you have already read my thread on low yield nuclear device in this section?
Basically, a nuke produces about 5 tonnes of nitrogen dioxide per 1kt within a fire ball of about 500 metres. Normally this rises and dispersed in the atmosphere. But at extremely low temperatures the fire ball cools much more rapidly and any volatiles will condense out quickly. The mushroom cloud will collapse much more quickly not allowing it time to disperse as per most tests. The nitrogen dioxide and fallout dusts will settle out into a toxic cloud hugging the ground. I have calculated that even for a 1kt device it could create a toxic cloud tens of square kilometres in size. If this happened up wind of the camp site then become exposed to it. Have a read of my thread. Also look up nuclear bomb and nitrogen dioxide.
Regards
Star man
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Ryan on March 08, 2019, 08:08:21 AM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on March 05, 2019, 11:42:26 PM ---In my hypothesis the fallout cloud would contain a high concentration of nitrogen dioxide which is very toxic and would be cause immediate distress to the hikers forcing them to flee.
--- End quote ---
I'm curious what sources suggest that nuclear weapons produce enough nitrogen dioxide to poison humans? I do see sources that atmospheric tests produce nitrogen dioxide, but I question the relationship to the DPI.
Unfortunately, we have data points in the hundreds of thousands about what fission weapons do to human bodies. In my research on this, I've never heard of nitrogen dioxide poisoning as a cause of death. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were easily 5-15 times higher yield than the proposed tactical nuke detonation in DP, so I'd think any nuclear process that generated nitrogen dioxide would have made 5-15 times as much in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I've heard of people killed by the shock wave, and incinerated or having their skin burned off by heat. Buildings can collapse on people, or impale people with debris. The blast can trigger fires that kill people. But I've also heard that scientists were surprised to find survivors from near ground zero, who had been sheltered from the shock wave and heat. Supposedly, this inspired the US "Duck and Cover" civil defense campaign.
I'd also think that any nitrogen dioxide produced would be widely dispersed by the shock wave such that it wouldn't be at toxic concentrations.
My impression is that if a tactical nuke did go off in DP, the hikers clearly were shielded from the heat, or it would have been obvious to everyone. And if they survived the initial blast, nothing would remain that would threaten their survival in the short term or compel them to leave their campsite. (Even if they took lethal radiation doses, it takes a surprisingly long time to die from it; Slotin took 9 days to die after the "demon core" criticality incident.) I'm not seeing a mechanism whereby a poisonous nitrogen dioxide ground fog would remain, which would compel them to leave the area. But if there's evidence to the contrary, I'm definitely open to revising my opinion.
--- End quote ---
Good point about the Nitrogen Dioxide. There is nothing that I have come across that mentions Nitrogen Dioxide, in Nuclear Explosions, as being of such a strength as to cause injuries to people. We certainly know about the usual affects of such explosions.
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Star man on March 08, 2019, 08:45:20 AM ---
--- Quote from: Ryan on March 08, 2019, 08:08:21 AM ---
--- Quote from: Star man on March 05, 2019, 11:42:26 PM ---In my hypothesis the fallout cloud would contain a high concentration of nitrogen dioxide which is very toxic and would be cause immediate distress to the hikers forcing them to flee.
--- End quote ---
I'm curious what sources suggest that nuclear weapons produce enough nitrogen dioxide to poison humans? I do see sources that atmospheric tests produce nitrogen dioxide, but I question the relationship to the DPI.
Unfortunately, we have data points in the hundreds of thousands about what fission weapons do to human bodies. In my research on this, I've never heard of nitrogen dioxide poisoning as a cause of death. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were easily 5-15 times higher yield than the proposed tactical nuke detonation in DP, so I'd think any nuclear process that generated nitrogen dioxide would have made 5-15 times as much in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I've heard of people killed by the shock wave, and incinerated or having their skin burned off by heat. Buildings can collapse on people, or impale people with debris. The blast can trigger fires that kill people. But I've also heard that scientists were surprised to find survivors from near ground zero, who had been sheltered from the shock wave and heat. Supposedly, this inspired the US "Duck and Cover" civil defense campaign.
I'd also think that any nitrogen dioxide produced would be widely dispersed by the shock wave such that it wouldn't be at toxic concentrations.
My impression is that if a tactical nuke did go off in DP, the hikers clearly were shielded from the heat, or it would have been obvious to everyone. And if they survived the initial blast, nothing would remain that would threaten their survival in the short term or compel them to leave their campsite. (Even if they took lethal radiation doses, it takes a surprisingly long time to die from it; Slotin took 9 days to die after the "demon core" criticality incident.) I'm not seeing a mechanism whereby a poisonous nitrogen dioxide ground fog would remain, which would compel them to leave the area. But if there's evidence to the contrary, I'm definitely open to revising my opinion.
--- End quote ---
Ryan,
I don’t know if you have already read my thread on low yield nuclear device in this section?
Basically, a nuke produces about 5 tonnes of nitrogen dioxide per 1kt within a fire ball of about 500 metres. Normally this rises and dispersed in the atmosphere. But at extremely low temperatures the fire ball cools much more rapidly and any volatiles will condense out quickly. The mushroom cloud will collapse much more quickly not allowing it time to disperse as per most tests. The nitrogen dioxide and fallout dusts will settle out into a toxic cloud hugging the ground. I have calculated that even for a 1kt device it could create a toxic cloud tens of square kilometres in size. If this happened up wind of the camp site then become exposed to it. Have a read of my thread. Also look up nuclear bomb and nitrogen dioxide.
Regards
Star man
--- End quote ---
I think your figures suggest a very big Nuclear Weapon ! ? And if that was the case we would expect other factors to come into the equation. And that means we could expect the usual factors after the explosion of a very big Nuclear Weapon. And that means we could expect to find the usual RADIOACTIVE PARTICLES in the vicinity of the Dyatlov Groups Tent. But apparently no such Particles were found.
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