Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 08:35:54 AM

Title: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 08:35:54 AM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?

Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on February 27, 2021, 09:40:17 AM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?

My experience is mostly in Viking reenactment.  I don't even get matches to light my cooking fires, lol.  Its make your own bow drill or the strike method.  We hike in our kits in good weather and bad, snow, 90 degree sun, everything between.  Our tents are canvas A-frame style, so while we carry in the canvas, we have to make the poles when we camp.  Now, twenty years ago I was more into the primitive scene; I competed as a world ranked atlatlist and as a family we were flint knappers and taught primitive skills around the eastern seaboard of the US.  I've hunted with an atlatl, fished with one, etc. 
Title: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Monty on February 27, 2021, 09:41:23 AM
Sometimes life gets the better of you pal. That's why we're here.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 27, 2021, 10:15:15 AM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
1. who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
2. Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
3. Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
4. Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
5. Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
6. Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
7. Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?


Q. How many people have climbed Everest without doing 1,5,6,7?
A. Probably most.


English winters don't favour cross country skiing but i've done 2,3,4 on foot.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 12:39:09 PM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
1. who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
2. Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
3. Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
4. Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
5. Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
6. Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
7. Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?


Q. How many people have climbed Everest without doing 1,5,6,7?
A. Probably most.


English winters don't favour cross country skiing but i've done 2,3,4 on foot.


Well, I don't what climbing Everest with porters to do all the carrying, setting up and cooking and cleaning etc has anything to do with this but okay.....

So basically you have no practical experience in what the 9 would have faced, that's all I wanted to know
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 12:41:23 PM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?

My experience is mostly in Viking reenactment.  I don't even get matches to light my cooking fires, lol.  Its make your own bow drill or the strike method.  We hike in our kits in good weather and bad, snow, 90 degree sun, everything between.  Our tents are canvas A-frame style, so while we carry in the canvas, we have to make the poles when we camp.  Now, twenty years ago I was more into the primitive scene; I competed as a world ranked atlatlist and as a family we were flint knappers and taught primitive skills around the eastern seaboard of the US.  I've hunted with an atlatl, fished with one, etc.

Sounds awesome! I would love to be able to do that here. For me, it was quite a bit of girl scouts getting badges for winter camping and family fun. I really enjoy learning about primitive technology and trying it
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: sarapuk on February 27, 2021, 12:51:36 PM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?

Good post. Obviously its not necessary for any one to have actually experienced what the Dyatlov Group experienced in order to try and decide what happened. But I suppose it helps to a certain extent to get the feel of what it must have been like in those weather conditions in such a remote place.
Me, well I havnt been any where as remote as the Dyatlov Group. I climbed or should I say scrambled up Mt Snowndon, Wales, in winter with snow and ice near the summit in plimsolls and corduroy trousers and jacket looking like some one on a Victorian afternoon outing in summer. A Military climbing group looked at me in amazement. I have camped in a canvas frame Tent in Wales during Hurricane Force winds that blew Trees down, etc. I survived along with the Tent. I have camped in snow in a primitive Mountain Tent half naked. It was cold. I have broken ice on lakes to Fish at 5am in the morning. It was cold. I did use matches to light any fires. Twigs burn well. The Dyatlov Group could be described as tough cookies. They were young and fit physically and mentally.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 01:17:12 PM
your right, arm chair detectives with no understanding of what it would have taken would be able to comment knowledgably on what they faced and how they did it. much like I am totally confident that I can explain how to fly a jet plane because I know they fly
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on February 27, 2021, 01:24:30 PM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?

My experience is mostly in Viking reenactment.  I don't even get matches to light my cooking fires, lol.  Its make your own bow drill or the strike method.  We hike in our kits in good weather and bad, snow, 90 degree sun, everything between.  Our tents are canvas A-frame style, so while we carry in the canvas, we have to make the poles when we camp.  Now, twenty years ago I was more into the primitive scene; I competed as a world ranked atlatlist and as a family we were flint knappers and taught primitive skills around the eastern seaboard of the US.  I've hunted with an atlatl, fished with one, etc.

Sounds awesome! I would love to be able to do that here. For me, it was quite a bit of girl scouts getting badges for winter camping and family fun. I really enjoy learning about primitive technology and trying it

I've always loved the outdoors but when my kids were young, I wanted to give them as broad of an education as possible.  My son had a brain injury in infancy and was a much better learner with hands on experience.  We first started competing in atlatl and doing the primitive thing so that I could help him find his niche.  He actually ranked higher than me for a few years in atlatl, (he was in the top five for youth in the world while I was only top seven for women.) My daughter seemed to be more of a natural with flint knapping.  The atlatl and flintknapping communities overlap extensively, since many atlatlists prefer primitive tips over modern field tips.  And there is also a lot of crossover events with primitive and mountain man era camps, so the progression from one into all of it was natural, lol.  Of course, my son is now 25 and pretty much lives on his computer, lol!  But, he is a semi-professional gamer (which I never even knew was an actual thing until he started doing it in college.). My daughter still does Viking reenactment with me, though.  Our family travels to Scandinavian festivals here in the states to run encampments and demonstrate Viking age skills, as well as running a thrown weapons range (we gave up atlatl to compete and teach in ax and knife throwing.)  I tend to focus more on running the encampment due to my health while my other half and daughter run the range.  We also participate in another organization that focuses on pre-1600 western Europe but that is less reenactment and more for fun, lol.  Mostly, I loved being able to let my kids experience history more first hand while teaching them self sufficiency skills.  I wanted to try and give them as much knowledge as possible so that they could be independent when needed (I always joked about them needing these skills in case of zombie apocalypse, lol!)  But, when we get lake effect snow off the Great Lakes and the electric and heat go out for days, we don't freeze or starve or really worry much, lol!  Best peace of mind as a parent!!!!! 
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on February 27, 2021, 01:38:58 PM
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Is that Fährenheit or Celsius?
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on February 27, 2021, 01:47:59 PM
Obviously its not necessary for any one to have actually experienced what the Dyatlov Group experienced in order to try and decide what happened.

That's a relief, I don't want to die in the cold before commenting on it.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 02:04:25 PM
Yes, that would suck, dying before you knew why :)
Title: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Monty on February 27, 2021, 02:05:28 PM
Oh the irony...

Most of us aren't lucky enough to live in the Urals.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 02:08:48 PM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?

My experience is mostly in Viking reenactment.  I don't even get matches to light my cooking fires, lol.  Its make your own bow drill or the strike method.  We hike in our kits in good weather and bad, snow, 90 degree sun, everything between.  Our tents are canvas A-frame style, so while we carry in the canvas, we have to make the poles when we camp.  Now, twenty years ago I was more into the primitive scene; I competed as a world ranked atlatlist and as a family we were flint knappers and taught primitive skills around the eastern seaboard of the US.  I've hunted with an atlatl, fished with one, etc.

Sounds awesome! I would love to be able to do that here. For me, it was quite a bit of girl scouts getting badges for winter camping and family fun. I really enjoy learning about primitive technology and trying it

I've always loved the outdoors but when my kids were young, I wanted to give them as broad of an education as possible.  My son had a brain injury in infancy and was a much better learner with hands on experience.  We first started competing in atlatl and doing the primitive thing so that I could help him find his niche.  He actually ranked higher than me for a few years in atlatl, (he was in the top five for youth in the world while I was only top seven for women.) My daughter seemed to be more of a natural with flint knapping.  The atlatl and flintknapping communities overlap extensively, since many atlatlists prefer primitive tips over modern field tips.  And there is also a lot of crossover events with primitive and mountain man era camps, so the progression from one into all of it was natural, lol.  Of course, my son is now 25 and pretty much lives on his computer, lol!  But, he is a semi-professional gamer (which I never even knew was an actual thing until he started doing it in college.). My daughter still does Viking reenactment with me, though.  Our family travels to Scandinavian festivals here in the states to run encampments and demonstrate Viking age skills, as well as running a thrown weapons range (we gave up atlatl to compete and teach in ax and knife throwing.)  I tend to focus more on running the encampment due to my health while my other half and daughter run the range.  We also participate in another organization that focuses on pre-1600 western Europe but that is less reenactment and more for fun, lol.  Mostly, I loved being able to let my kids experience history more first hand while teaching them self sufficiency skills.  I wanted to try and give them as much knowledge as possible so that they could be independent when needed (I always joked about them needing these skills in case of zombie apocalypse, lol!)  But, when we get lake effect snow off the Great Lakes and the electric and heat go out for days, we don't freeze or starve or really worry much, lol!  Best peace of mind as a parent!!!!!

That is awesome to hear and exactly why I grew up hunting and fishing and camping etc and it makes for a great childhood. I could have passed on the butchering though, not my favourite part of my childhood.... cows, pigs, chickens, turkey, rabbit, deer, moose, elk, but to eat them you have to butcher them so not a complete loss I guess
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 27, 2021, 02:22:04 PM
I am just curious of all the people commenting,
1. who here has had to light a fire in the winter with just matches and nothing prepared?
2. Who has cross country skied for at least an overnight winter camping trip?
3. Who had cross country skied carrying a back pack for an over night winter camping trip?
4. Who has set up a tent for winter camping?
5. Who has walked barefoot in at least -5 and snow?
6. Who has walked in socks in snow for any distance?
7. Who has had to build a winter shelter for protection?

I am just very curious how many have any real life experience in these situation?


Q. How many people have climbed Everest without doing 1,5,6,7?
A. Probably most.


English winters don't favour cross country skiing but i've done 2,3,4 on foot.


Well, I don't what climbing Everest with porters to do all the carrying, setting up and cooking and cleaning etc has anything to do with this but okay.....

So basically you have no practical experience in what the 9 would have faced, that's all I wanted to know


No one knows what they faced, Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket. Rustem was found on an ice bed with a boot full of water, lying in a stream? The frostbite profile that should have been there just wasn't.






Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 03:54:23 PM
I noticed that. or did they not mention it? it seems pretty strange to not mention it on all the fingers and toes at the very least
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on February 27, 2021, 04:45:27 PM
You don't get frostbite when you're frozen. Meat in your freezer doesn't have frostbite.

It only develops after the affected area is rewarmed and the dead cells decompose...
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on February 27, 2021, 04:59:41 PM
Anyway I have only done the walking in snow in socks, as a test, none of the other stuff.

Walking in socks is ok until your body heat starts melting the snow stuck to the socks, then it becomes very uncomfortable very fast.
So it's a bit of a mystery to me how they even got to the cedar/ravine area. I guess if your life is in danger and you have no other option to survive, it's  doable but at the same time, was there really anything at the cedar they could look forward to?

If they set out with the hope of starting a fire, why not take the saw with them, and the one piece of (presumably) dry firewood they already had? Otherwise why go the cedar?
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 27, 2021, 05:03:18 PM
You don't get frostbite when you're frozen. Meat in your freezer doesn't have frostbite.

It only develops after the affected area is rewarmed and the dead cells decompose...
If the expected temperature was say -20C and with wind chill say -60C? Then they should have experienced significant frostbite by the time they reached the cedar?
Then they warmed themselves next to a fire?
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on February 27, 2021, 05:14:09 PM
If the expected temperature was say -20C and with wind chill say -60C? Then they should have experienced significant frostbite by the time they reached the cedar?
Then they warmed themselves next to a fire?
Well yeah, in my opinion they tried but failed to warm themselves, but it's true they should definitely have frostbite by the time they reach the cedar, but what I'm saying is that the usual visual signs only develop after rewarming, in fact 1-2 days after rewarming: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/frostbite/multimedia/img-20114490 (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/frostbite/multimedia/img-20114490)

And presumably, only if you're still alive (not exactly sure about this).
 
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Tony on February 27, 2021, 05:20:27 PM
Did a lot of those years ago when I was younger with scouts but not often and wish I'd done more of it. To be honest, I'd probably be pretty nervous to do a winter overnighter in a tent nowadays.

When I was a kid my friend had a hot tub in his back yard. We'd go over and sit in it in the winter and see who could run the perimeter of his yard barefoot in the snow (he had a pretty big back yard). I don't remember anyone making it even half way before cutting back across the yard and jumping back in the hot tub. Walking 1500 m in socks would be pain on another level.

I did have a tent I was in collapse in the middle of the night once due to snowfall which was pretty uneventful.

Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on February 27, 2021, 05:29:04 PM
You don't get frostbite when you're frozen. Meat in your freezer doesn't have frostbite.

It only develops after the affected area is rewarmed and the dead cells decompose...
If the expected temperature was say -20C and with wind chill say -60C? Then they should have experienced significant frostbite by the time they reached the cedar?
Then they warmed themselves next to a fire?

I also believe that Yasuko Namba, who died on Everest in the 1996 blizzard, had severe frostbite to her hands, feet and face (she was without gloves by the time they descended to where she ultimately perished.)  Her body was frozen and her hands were discolored.  They weren't the black that we normally see after rewarming but some of the first signs of frostbite are discoloration (pale yellow or white, waxy appearance, skin gets hard and swollen and then begins to blister.)  But there should have been indications of frostbite for just about all of the Dyatlov group if they all made it down to the cedar from the ridge by foot, I should think.  For some it may have been larger areas than others (fingertips as opposed to an entire hand.)

Has anyone read any of Beck Weather's personal accounts from Everest?  He was left for dead, a couple of times, managed to rise from the dead and amble back to high base camp. His limbs were completely frozen solid and he lost his feet, his nose, and at least one arm almost to the elbow.  I just wonder if anywhere in his accounts he mentions what the areas looked like before he was brought down to camp 2 where he was evacuated.  Obviously, Everest conditions are different than the Urals as both Namba and Weathers were in the Death Zone and had hypoxia, so they were freezing both from outside in and inside out.  But I think there could be much to gain as far as frostbite indications and what should have been either noticeable on the bodies or mentioned in the autopsy reports. 
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on February 27, 2021, 05:46:54 PM
"the soft tissues of both hands and fingers tips are especially dark purple; all fingers and toes are severelly frostbitten. If Yuri Doroshenko would have survived, he would have required an amputation of all his toes and fingers."

"frostbites on the phalanges of fingers"  Zinaida

This is all I can find mentioning frostbite
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on February 27, 2021, 06:01:02 PM
If you look at the photos, there is also discoloration on their ears and the damage to the noses could also be due to freezing
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on February 28, 2021, 02:22:32 AM
If you look at the photos, there is also discoloration on their ears and the damage to the noses could also be due to freezing
My wife's ear gained a purple edge when we were caught in a -35C storm in the alps. She's not a fast skier so it was a slow descent into a headwind, probably didn't take an hour and she was beginning to suffer. (Just a bit more of that real life experience stuff!  grin1 ).
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on February 28, 2021, 09:12:30 AM
If you look at the photos, there is also discoloration on their ears and the damage to the noses could also be due to freezing
My wife's ear gained a purple edge when we were caught in a -35C storm in the alps. She's not a fast skier so it was a slow descent into a headwind, probably didn't take an hour and she was beginning to suffer. (Just a bit more of that real life experience stuff!  grin1 ).

Oh, not fun!!  i hope she was able to get them warm quickly!!  I'm on the autoimmune spectrum (its not Highlander, you never only have one autoimmune disorder, it seems,) and have Reynauds syndrome, where the blood vessels in your extremities spasm in sudden temperature changes.  My toes would suddenly turn almost black in the shower and then bright white when I got out.  Its actually more common than I'd have thought and easily treatable (it also means I dont get to run around barefoot, sadly) but it does make for a fun party trick when you want to get annoying people to leave you alone!

I spent my short time in the Swiss alps with my nose in a book watching out the window, lol.  Although, we were there late in May and just below the snow line so there was no real opportunity to even try skiing.  I did however make my usual social mark on the area.  We were in some six story chateaux up the mountain from a quaint little village that had amazing fondue   But hour 1, I had to check out the porch outside our rooms on the fifth floor and looked at my roommates conspiratorily and said, "watch this!!"  I shouted, "Riccola!" as loud as my lungs would allow and got a shouted response back from the village below, "like we haven't heard *that* before!"  Still makes me laugh, lol!!  (I should seriously not be allowed out with a supervisor.)
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: sarapuk on February 28, 2021, 12:49:22 PM
If you look at the photos, there is also discoloration on their ears and the damage to the noses could also be due to freezing
My wife's ear gained a purple edge when we were caught in a -35C storm in the alps. She's not a fast skier so it was a slow descent into a headwind, probably didn't take an hour and she was beginning to suffer. (Just a bit more of that real life experience stuff!  grin1 ).

Well a few years ago during a nasty freezing blast from the East I walked across a field in Sussex, England, and started freezing. Does getting older make you more susceptible to frostbite ? Surely being young and fit must be an advantage in fighting off frostbite !
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on February 28, 2021, 01:18:14 PM
If you look at the photos, there is also discoloration on their ears and the damage to the noses could also be due to freezing
My wife's ear gained a purple edge when we were caught in a -35C storm in the alps. She's not a fast skier so it was a slow descent into a headwind, probably didn't take an hour and she was beginning to suffer. (Just a bit more of that real life experience stuff!  grin1 ).

Well a few years ago during a nasty freezing blast from the East I walked across a field in Sussex, England, and started freezing. Does getting older make you more susceptible to frostbite ? Surely being young and fit must be an advantage in fighting off frostbite !

We don't get older we just get more seasoned.  And in this case, the milder the season, the easier to shake off the cold, lol! 
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Investigator on February 28, 2021, 07:29:15 PM
"Real life experience" is what led to the DPI in the first place!  Who would have tried to do what they did that night, other than people who thought they had enough experience to survive under those conditions?  And "experts" are considered (at least in legal courts) to have opinions that are superior to those who have some amount of experience.  Profiler Pat Brown has an interesting story on the subject (from her book, "The Profiler"):
_______________
The family felt that the police rushed to judgment and failed to perform a proper investigation. They didn’t even test for fingerprints on the gun or the beer bottle between his legs. The family thought somebody staged that. They wanted the beer bottle and gun tested for fingerprints and they wanted people interviewed, but none of this was done. The family fought long and hard to prove that Brian would not have attempted suicide. They insisted he wasn’t depressed or upset or having any problems in life.

They came to me and said, “Can you look into this case and bring us some peace?”
One thing I learned right off was that “experts” often disagree with each other. At the beginning of my career, I wasn’t all that familiar with what happens when you shoot yourself with a shotgun, what happens to your head, what happens with the blood, in what direction the pieces go, and what happens to the wadding in the shotgun. I wasn’t a ballistics expert, so I sought out people who were. The original person I approached gave me information that turned out to be incorrect, and I had based a good portion of my initial profile on that.

In the beginning, I agreed with the family. I thought the blood looked like it was going in the wrong direction. But that was an error on my part, because I believed what the first expert told me.

I eventually sought out a different expert, but something still seemed wrong with the picture.
A third ballistics expert brought yet another conflicting opinion but one that came with a much better explanation. That’s how I learned that I shouldn’t blindly believe an expert; I need to find out why they believe what they do. We often see a courtroom expert who will give an opinion, but nobody bothers asking him exactly how he came to that opinion. Just because an expert says “In my professional opinion…” doesn’t mean you should automatically believe he is correct. The courts are a great example of this. How is it that the prosecution expert and the defense expert almost always give opposing opinions? They can’t both be right.

A profiler should always have a thorough explanation of each point in his profile so that anybody, whether a police detective or a victim’s mother, can understand exactly why we believe what we write. Any forensic expert should have a thorough explanation as well. I learned in this case to require any expert who analyzes any portion of a case I am working on to do the same.
The Lewis family believed that Brian did not pull the trigger on the gun that killed him. Someone else must have been responsible.
_______________

Why was the evidence so difficult to understand?  "If you don’t understand how a shotgun works, you might misinterpret the blood spatter evidence. Most of us are much more familiar with how a handgun works... [However, the person who committed suicide] used a shell that contained dove and quail shot, lots of little pellets with a bunch of powder propelling them. Basically, instead of a bullet tearing through the head in a straight line, a bomb is launched into the brain. Once that is accomplished, it explodes, and blood gases come into play. They expand, just like a bomb, and the gases move more easily against the places of least resistance. The skull is pretty strong, but the nose and eye sockets are permeable cavities, so Brian’s face exploded but his skull remained intact."

And from the many accounts of issues in the cold weather I've read, along with what one reads in the DG's diary, it still amazes me that people think that pitching two old canvas tents sewn together (and that would come apart at night under much better conditions) in that location, under those weather conditions, and without any heat source was anything other than a "recipe for disaster."  And their problem was further compounded by the fact that it wasn't likely anyone would come help them until after they froze to death (and they couldn't even signal for help with flares).  Whether they recognized how dire their situation was, or if they thought it wouldn't be too difficult to survive with whatever their original plan was, is a question I'd really like to have answered, but the evidence does not point to any great mystery, and the fact that there are other, more puzzling cases, attest to how often people get into trouble when they engage in these kinds of outdoor activities (look at the mortality statistics).
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: RidgeWatcher on February 28, 2021, 11:33:15 PM
I built a snow shelter during the winter in Alaska with my husband, but we did it intentionally and had good bags and pads. It was on a large prairie surrounded by trees but only about 1 mile/1.6km from our house and about 150 yards from a good trail. We had two dogs, an Alaskan Husky and our half Lab/half Wolf to help us keep warm. Looking back on it I think we were crazy.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 01, 2021, 03:15:28 AM
@Investigator - i don't agree it was foolhardy to camp there if a watch was maintained. Their problem wasn't the ridge or the wind.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 01, 2021, 03:38:12 AM
There would be no reason to maintain a watch/sentry in such an isolated area, they would be tired the next day and hold the group up. And they were all exhausted from the climb.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 01, 2021, 04:50:23 AM
There would be no reason to maintain a watch/sentry in such an isolated area, they would be tired the next day and hold the group up. And they were all exhausted from the climb.


No they'd spent that day resting and left circa 3pm. By watch i mean someone staying awake inside to monitor the tent's flapping. Less than one hour per person.
The expected worst case would be to collapse the tent, cover it with snow and head for the forest fully dressed and light a fire. There could no expectation of a good nights sleep up there. Most of them wouldn't get much sleep anyway, watch or not.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on March 01, 2021, 06:15:08 AM
I built a snow shelter during the winter in Alaska with my husband, but we did it intentionally and had good bags and pads. It was on a large prairie surrounded by trees but only about 1 mile/1.6km from our house and about 150 yards from a good trail. We had two dogs, an Alaskan Husky and our half Lab/half Wolf to help us keep warm. Looking back on it I think we were crazy.

That sounds like fun. I bet your dogs loved it if nothing else. the excuse to snuggle with their humans without "go away you blasted fur heater under the covers'(I sleep with three pugs and they hear that on a reg basis. they don't seem to care :(
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: tenne on March 01, 2021, 06:17:26 AM
There would be no reason to maintain a watch/sentry in such an isolated area, they would be tired the next day and hold the group up. And they were all exhausted from the climb.

Those old stoves need constant tending and I think that is why the diaries had entries about shifts. if you don't wake up at least once or twice to put wood in them, they burn out and it gets really cold and then you have to try to start a fire in the cold. it sucks. I grew up with wood heat and when the wood was too dry and burnt out too quickly, I was glad my parents had to get out of bed and get the fire going,not me
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 01, 2021, 06:18:29 AM
No they'd spent that day resting and left circa 3pm.

That's not possible, they'd be setting the tent up in darkness.

I think they set off before noon, after spending 2 hours building the labaz, got to the midpoint between 805 and 1079 an hour later, and then faced a tough side-stepping climb up the slope of 1079 in a blizzard. They probably set up camp around 4pm; Rakitin calculated the sun would already be setting below the peak by then. They'd be exhausted by the time they climbed into the tent.

Give Clark Wilkins book a try, it contains by far the best description of their route navigation that I've read so far.

He suggests Kolya and Zolotaryov were dressed, and outside the tent, because they were trying to get a bearing on a landmark to confirm the position on their compass bearing. They would have to do this before sunset.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 01, 2021, 07:08:01 AM
No they'd spent that day resting and left circa 3pm.

That's not possible, they'd be setting the tent up in darkness.

I think they set off before noon, after spending 2 hours building the labaz, got to the midpoint between 805 and 1079 an hour later, and then faced a tough side-stepping climb up the slope of 1079 in a blizzard. They probably set up camp around 4pm; Rakitin calculated the sun would already be setting below the peak by then. They'd be exhausted by the time they climbed into the tent.

Give Clark Wilkins book a try, it contains by far the best description of their route navigation that I've read so far.

He suggests Kolya and Zolotaryov were dressed, and outside the tent, because they were trying to get a bearing on a landmark to confirm the position on their compass bearing. They would have to do this before sunset.


Ivanov's view :-
On 31.I.59 going back in the valley of Auspiya river and knowing about the difficult conditions of the relief of the height "1079", where the ascent was supposed to be, Dyatlov, as the leader of the group, made a gross mistake allowing the group to begin the ascent on 1.II.59, only at 15-00.

Later, on the ski trail, which was preserved at the time of the search, it was possible to establish that the hikers, moving to the valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River, were 500-600 m to the left and instead of the pass formed by the peaks "1079" and "880" they went up on the eastern slope of height "1079".
This was Dyatlov's second mistake.
Using light day time to rise to the top of the "1079", in conditions of strong wind that is usual in this area, and a low temperature of the order of 25-30°C, Dyatlov group found themselves at unprofitable conditions for spending the night and decided to pitch the tent on a slope of height "1079" so that in the morning of the next day, without losing altitude, go to the Mt. Otorten, to which the distance in straight line remained about 10 km.
In one of the cameras the last frame shows the moment of excavation of snow for the installation of the tent. Considering that this frame was shot with an exposure of I/25 seconds, with a diaphragm of 5.6 at a film sensitivity of 65 Un. GOST (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_speed?flp=1#GOST), and taking into account the density of the frame, we can assume that the hikers started the installation of the tent around 5 pm 1.II.59. A similar picture was taken with another camera.


Three points :-
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 01, 2021, 07:57:23 AM
Three points :-
  • there can be no evidence for the 3pm set off other than the (well qualified) rescue team's opinion that they only needed 2 hours for that journey.
  • the diary, the camera on a tripod and photos that are still debated (n.b. everyone accepts that Eagle is a genuine photo and if so then what is the status of the others particularly Plane2?)  all point to a deliberate purpose - to photograph the lights.
  • You don't wear a camera around your neck to take a bearing. You do that to take quick shots of something transient in challenging conditions.

I think 3pm is way off the mark, they were trying to make up lost time, the climb would take too long so they'd arrive in darkness (the team was estimating in good weather), and if they were sitting around relaxing they would have updated their personal diaries - they were flat-out busy, and exhausted.

I don't think those photos are from the camera found around Zolotaryov's neck, and therefore were not taken that night. I read somewhere the film from that camera was ruined in the water, but I could be mistaken.

They weren't taking pictures of anything in the sky in that weather, perhaps he hoped to, more likely he just wore it all the time or was taking a picture of them standing in a blizzard beside the tent.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 01, 2021, 01:25:08 PM
Three points :-
  • there can be no evidence for the 3pm set off other than the (well qualified) rescue team's opinion that they only needed 2 hours for that journey.
  • the diary, the camera on a tripod and photos that are still debated (n.b. everyone accepts that Eagle is a genuine photo and if so then what is the status of the others particularly Plane2?)  all point to a deliberate purpose - to photograph the lights.
  • You don't wear a camera around your neck to take a bearing. You do that to take quick shots of something transient in challenging conditions.

I think 3pm is way off the mark, they were trying to make up lost time, the climb would take too long so they'd arrive in darkness (the team was estimating in good weather), and if they were sitting around relaxing they would have updated their personal diaries - they were flat-out busy, and exhausted. It's in the diary that they were exhausted from the previous day, so it fits that they rested and set off late for a 2 hour ascent.

I don't think those photos are from the camera found around Zolotaryov's neck, and therefore were not taken that night. I read somewhere the film from that camera was ruined in the water, but I could be mistaken. I'm not aware of anything in the casefiles concerning these photos being water damaged although it's reasonable conjecture of course.

They weren't taking pictures of anything in the sky in that weather, perhaps he hoped to, more likely he just wore it all the time or was taking a picture of them standing in a blizzard beside the tent. We don't know what the weather was like later on.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on March 01, 2021, 06:21:54 PM


Ivanov's view :-
On 31.I.59 going back in the valley of Auspiya river and knowing about the difficult conditions of the relief of the height "1079", where the ascent was supposed to be, Dyatlov, as the leader of the group, made a gross mistake allowing the group to begin the ascent on 1.II.59, only at 15-00.

Later, on the ski trail, which was preserved at the time of the search, it was possible to establish that the hikers, moving to the valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River, were 500-600 m to the left and instead of the pass formed by the peaks "1079" and "880" they went up on the eastern slope of height "1079".
This was Dyatlov's second mistake.
Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Manti on March 01, 2021, 06:24:30 PM
Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on March 01, 2021, 07:18:09 PM
Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

This was my understanding; that it has never been verified if there was anything in the case he wore.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 02, 2021, 01:19:01 AM
Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?

This is Clark Wilkins summary, planned route in red, actual in green.

(https://i.ibb.co/SRtRD96/map.png) (https://ibb.co/t8q8wWH)

Igor tried to cut a corner, bypassing 663 and heading straight to 805. Wilkins suggests they were trying to navigate East of 805 (where the climb is steeper) towards 611, I think they were planning to rejoin their original route West of 805, on the East side of the pass. Either way they couldn't get up the slope of 805 so they headed South to 663 and made camp, too tired to dig the labaz or even a fire pit.

Now they were behind schedule. They sited the labaz 300m west of 663 in the morning, then Igor tried to cut another corner, setting a compass bearing of 320 degrees directly between 1079 and 805, which put them on the East slope of 1079, i.e. on the West (higher) slope of the pass instead of the East. They would have rejoined their original route on the downslope, Northeast of 1079.

They maintained a compass bearing because they were in a blizzard and couldn't see any landmarks. If they could spot 611 (where they ended up walking) they could have conceded altitude and rejoined their route, but they wouldn't want to do that, the climb had been a big effort. That's why the tent was on the slope, and why the search team were confused it was 500-600m "left" of where it should be.

Igor knew what he was doing but underestimated the climbs, they probably wanted to get to the Northeast side of 1079 but ran out of daylight. Wilkins points out they weren't recording certain details in the group diary because it was the official log which would be assessed for the grade III certification; and the personal diaries weren't being updated because they were exhausted.

Perhaps they found time to build a snowman before they set off from 663, and recorded it in the Evening Otorten wink1
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2021, 05:47:09 AM


Ivanov's view :-
On 31.I.59 going back in the valley of Auspiya river and knowing about the difficult conditions of the relief of the height "1079", where the ascent was supposed to be, Dyatlov, as the leader of the group, made a gross mistake allowing the group to begin the ascent on 1.II.59, only at 15-00.

Later, on the ski trail, which was preserved at the time of the search, it was possible to establish that the hikers, moving to the valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River, were 500-600 m to the left and instead of the pass formed by the peaks "1079" and "880" they went up on the eastern slope of height "1079".
This was Dyatlov's second mistake.
Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?
You seem to reading "valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River" as "Lozva River"?
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2021, 05:52:23 AM
Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?
I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2021, 05:59:03 AM
Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?

This is Clark Wilkins summary, planned route in red, actual in green.

(https://i.ibb.co/SRtRD96/map.png) (https://ibb.co/t8q8wWH)

Igor tried to cut a corner, bypassing 663 and heading straight to 805. Wilkins suggests they were trying to navigate East of 805 (where the climb is steeper) towards 611, I think they were planning to rejoin their original route West of 805, on the East side of the pass. Either way they couldn't get up the slope of 805 so they headed South to 663 and made camp, too tired to dig the labaz or even a fire pit.
Yes they were poorly equipped to ascend in those conditions it seems

Now they were behind schedule. They sited the labaz 300m west of 663 in the morning, then Igor tried to cut another corner, setting a compass bearing of 320 degrees directly between 1079 and 805, which put them on the East slope of 1079, i.e. on the West (higher) slope of the pass instead of the East. They would have rejoined their original route on the downslope, Northeast of 1079.

They maintained a compass bearing because they were in a blizzard and couldn't see any landmarks. If they could spot 611 (where they ended up walking) they could have conceded altitude and rejoined their route, but they wouldn't want to do that, the climb had been a big effort. That's why the tent was on the slope, and why the search team were confused it was 500-600m "left" of where it should be.You don't need a compass or line of sight in that situation to know that "down" takes you to the tree line and "up" doesn't.

Igor knew what he was doing but underestimated the climbs, they probably wanted to get to the Northeast side of 1079 but ran out of daylight. Wilkins points out they weren't recording certain details in the group diary because it was the official log which would be assessed for the grade III certification; and the personal diaries weren't being updated because they were exhausted.Igor recorded the decision to camp on the ridge?

Perhaps they found time to build a snowman before they set off from 663, and recorded it in the Evening Otorten wink1
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 02, 2021, 06:27:32 AM
You can't leave a compass bearing in those conditions because you don't know how far along the line you are (other than estimating average speed), so you will be lost. Down might take you anywhere, wood, wasteland or river, frozen or not... and if the weather doesn't clear you'll never find your way back.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2021, 07:24:12 AM
In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

On skis they could probably reach the treeline in 10 minutes from the tent in any wind conditions. For most of the ascent probably 5 minutes. You're overcooking the importance of the compass imo.

He said they were going to camp on the ridge and that's what they did, in a wind shadow full of loose snow to assist protecting the tent, the tent being properly setup according to expert witnesses.



Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: KFinn on March 02, 2021, 07:28:47 AM
Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?
I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.

I don't necessarily deny that the pictures are genuinely from Zolotaryev.  I just wonder if the film came from a camera in the case around Zolotaryev's neck or if the film came from the tent.  I wish there was better chain of command for various evidence. 
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 02, 2021, 08:51:12 AM
He said they were going to camp on the ridge and that's what they did

But he doesn't say where, or when, or on which side of the pass, so it can fit the plan.

Whereas he said S to 663, when it was actually SW (SSW at a push). Recording SW would show they were off course.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: ash73 on March 02, 2021, 09:06:05 AM
In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

You can get vertigo in a severe whiteout and lose your sense of up and down, dead reckoning is the only way to keep track of where you are; otherwise you're lost and gambling on the weather clearing to get your bearings.

Getting away with it is not the same as "best" wink1
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2021, 09:25:28 AM
Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?
I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.

I don't necessarily deny that the pictures are genuinely from Zolotaryev.  I just wonder if the film came from a camera in the case around Zolotaryev's neck or if the film came from the tent.  I wish there was better chain of command for various evidence.


None of the evidence is beyond question, all original materials confiscated, Okishev asserts that Ivanov would have doctored the case files under direction from Moscow, even the final casebook shows evidence of being restitched.
Title: Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?
Post by: Nigel Evans on March 02, 2021, 09:32:17 AM
In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

You can get vertigo in a severe whiteout and lose your sense of up and down, dead reckoning is the only way to keep track of where you are; otherwise you're lost and gambling on the weather clearing to get your bearings.

Getting away with it is not the same as "best" wink1


Being lost isn't a problem if the shelter of the forest is a few minutes away downhill. The only caveat would be if the map showed dangerously steep ground nearby which was not the case here.