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Author Topic: Rempel.  (Read 1084 times)

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January 21, 2022, 08:29:55 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Rempel., is the very last word in Zina's diary, at the very end of the book and unassociated with any other entry. I think it was the second to last page of her diary. The hunter "Rempel" was also mentioned in one of the hikers' diaries (Dyatlov?) as someone they spoke with and spent a small amount of time with before they set off for Otorten. Could she have recognized Rempel as someone who appeared at the tent that night and quickly scratched his name into a random page of her diary before the 9 were forced from the tent? Maybe this was the final clue. She wrote his name in case something happened to them. I don't think much is known about this hunter, only that he was questioned peripherally. Any more information about this out there?
 

January 21, 2022, 08:46:48 AM
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Teddy

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Rempel., is the very last word in Zina's diary, at the very end of the book
It's not the last word but at the back of the notebook. These are two different things.

https://dyatlovpass.com/whois#rempel

https://dyatlovpass.com/vizhay#rempel

The Dyatlov group was staying at Vizhay, but they were not wasting time. They consulted with Ivan Rempel, a forest officer of the Vizhay forestry, who helped them reconfirm their route, copy the lay-out of the forest plot along their route, and mark up the boundaries of the planted forest.
Ivan Dmitrievich Rempel (53) was convicted in 1937, and since then had lived in Vizhay. At first, he served his time at the labor camp and after the end of his term stayed back at the local forestry.
Rempel warned the group of the perils of the route, particularly the heavy winds at the Ural Ridge, but the hikers did not take his warnings seriously. They were looking forward to the evening entertainment –the famous Symphonie in Gold (1956) movie at the local club, followed by a night at the Vizhay hotel.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 08:52:33 AM by Teddy »
 

January 21, 2022, 01:26:44 PM
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ElizabethHarris


I finished the book (the Death of 9...can't remember the author) and it was his summation that the Rempel. entry was the second to last page of her diary with blank pages before it and 1 after, suggesting that this was the 'last' entry but since we have no idea when it was written, then of course we can't make the conclusion it was the last thing written by Zina, but simply one word on the last of her pages. Big difference, yes. thank you for that clarification. I wonder why Rempel served in a labor camp? I know very little about Russian history but it's my guess that we can't conclude he was a potential suspect based on a stay in a Stalin-era internment camp. LOVED seeing you on Expedition Unknown BTW. Cheers!
 

January 21, 2022, 04:19:38 PM
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Teddy

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Thank you. I was innocent back then, didn't have a theory. Now that I do, it is all so real and painful. Before it was a fiction, something that couldn't have happened. Now I feel the weight on top of me.
It is very common for the people that remain to live and work in the area that have had a sentence. At the time you didn't have to be a criminal to get sentenced. Boris Vozrozhdenniy, the coroner, had a sentence. So did the nurse in the morgue Pelageya Solter. You may be also interested in reading p.8 of Yudin's diary.

I will announce next week a podcast I will be live on the anniversary of the tragedy and I will be asking for questions I can address in the show. I have never thought beforehand what to say since I expect the host to guide me and the result is total loss of any control over the conversation. I am going to try something different. Gather questions beforehand. What do you think?
 

January 22, 2022, 12:10:45 AM
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Perplexe


personnellement je me tiens prêt à vous envoyer quelques questions murement réfléchies si vous les accepter de ma part.
 

January 22, 2022, 01:56:55 AM
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Teddy

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personally I stand ready to send you some carefully thought out questions if you accept them from me.

Shoot. If not here I will answer in the podcast.
 
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January 22, 2022, 11:02:32 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Teddy, I think bringing questions to the conference is a fabulous idea. We do seem to be on a hamster wheel.  You phrased your post so well when you wondered if we, as a community who collectively want truth and justice for the students, are moving towards a solution or recycling the same ideas that no one can seem to agree upon. Having all the information that we have, maybe we should start pinpointing exactly what it is we are missing. What do we need to know that we still don't have that could isolate the better theories and dismiss the weaker ones? We know that we still have not had full disclosure of all case files, right? That's such a roadblock. I still believe the closest we can come to an answer lies with the victims themselves. Semyon was the only one exhumed, right? I think all 9 should be re-examined under the microscope of today's forensic lens. Details that Vozrozdhenny left vague or incomplete could possibly be clarified now. Even with just a bit of progress in making the injuries clearer by today's standards, we could possibly begin to dismiss certain theories and expound on others. I think all of the answers are there, buried with the victims. Would it even be legally possible to have all of them exhumed? I do hope you decide to ask for the questions of forum participants in advance of the conference. I'm very excited to hear the podcast and any information about the progress of this case. As always, Teddy, a whole-hearted THANK YOU.
 

January 23, 2022, 02:14:56 AM
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Ziljoe


Teddy, I think bringing questions to the conference is a fabulous idea. We do seem to be on a hamster wheel.  You phrased your post so well when you wondered if we, as a community who collectively want truth and justice for the students, are moving towards a solution or recycling the same ideas that no one can seem to agree upon. Having all the information that we have, maybe we should start pinpointing exactly what it is we are missing. What do we need to know that we still don't have that could isolate the better theories and dismiss the weaker ones? We know that we still have not had full disclosure of all case files, right? That's such a roadblock. I still believe the closest we can come to an answer lies with the victims themselves. Semyon was the only one exhumed, right? I think all 9 should be re-examined under the microscope of today's forensic lens. Details that Vozrozdhenny left vague or incomplete could possibly be clarified now. Even with just a bit of progress in making the injuries clearer by today's standards, we could possibly begin to dismiss certain theories and expound on others. I think all of the answers are there, buried with the victims. Would it even be legally possible to have all of them exhumed? I do hope you decide to ask for the questions of forum participants in advance of the conference. I'm very excited to hear the podcast and any information about the progress of this case. As always, Teddy, a whole-hearted THANK YOU.


I would be cautious of going down the road of exhuming bodies. There has to be respect to the families and  I don't think mutch could be found from doing anything . I am as passionate as you are Elizabeth, but this is none of our business. We could look at strange deaths in every country.

I do not wish to be combative but what would you expect to find from the remains?
 

January 24, 2022, 10:27:18 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Exhumation is inherently a horrible concept and true, some families might be entirely against it and they would every right to refuse it. But maybe some families would allow it with the hopes of finally getting closer to a conclusion. I think it could be possible to clarify some of the questions left unanswered by Vozrozdhenny's examination. Maybe there could be some differentiation between post and antemortem wounds (probably the most important findings to be had), a closer examination of wounds and their origins (blunt force, sharp force, falling, throwing, defense etc.) Pathologists can look at injuries today and know what types of weapons were used to cause injuries, when they were received as per time of death etc. The capabilities of modern forensic technology are endless today. That V found and noted the inconsistency within the livor mortis process of most of the hikers (post-morten hypostasis??) was a huge find. It is therefore scientifically proven that somebody moved the bodies after they died within just a few hours. Maybe there would be further clues like that to be found after exhumation. That being said, I have no idea how these bodies were preserved. Were ppl typically embalmed in Russia back then? Since their original conditions were so compromised, what would be left 60 years later? I don't know. That, along with agreement from the families, would be the biggest obstacle.
 

January 28, 2022, 09:11:10 PM
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GlennM


I believe at the time, there was every effort to be respectful of the dead, yet use the dead to ascertain the cause of their demise. Exhumation today would not add to what is known. It would be more of a comparison  of their mortal residue when buried versus when exhumed, as opposed to making new discovery.  I appreciate forensics have progressed since 1959, but I recall an incident where archaeological experts concluded animal bones had microscopic scratches indicative of cut marks from stone age tools,  hence hominid hunters. Then, another researcher demonstrated that if bones are trampled by other animals,they can leave similar cut marks from abrasion by gravel. I fear that reexamination of the bodies could still produce ambiguity. That, unless a bullet or broken knife blade was found among the bones. At some point we separate quest for truth from morbid curiosity. I think we all quest in this forum. I believe they died by making the right choice to camp on 1079 rather than slog through deep snow in the forest. When fear struck, Nature held the high card. They were too cold, too hungry, too hurt and too weak to overcome a compelling natural force. Exhumation wouldn't change that. Would it?  What a thought provoking group of serious thinkers we have.,Excellent.
 
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January 29, 2022, 11:27:03 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Thank you for your information on exhumation. Yes, I agree that it wouldn't necessarily show us anything more than we already know. But since we are at such a dead end, there's not much more left to investigate unless, god willing, some new case file appears out of some lost Soviet 'lock box', which is highly unlikely. I wish I could be comfortable with accepting this as an accident or result from some natural event but as much as I want to, I simply cannot get past certain injuries that have convinced me beyond a reasonable doubt even, that this was no accident. There are just too many things that don't add up for natural event theories. There aren't many things that don't fit with the murder theory. PPl typically say it could not have been murder for the following reasons: 1) there are no other footprints at scenes 2) no one else was on the mountain or in the vicinity of their site 3) there is no motive anywhere to be found 3) there would be signs of struggle 4) nothing is missing from tent or on their persons 5) the injuries cannot be man-made. There are others but those are the usuals. I have come up with answers to disprove all of those statements and somebody somewhere will have answers to disprove mine....Just about every wound suffered on all 9 can be accounted for as possibly man-made violence. Signs of strangulation, signs of being tied up, defensive wounds, black eyes, pulmonary edema, hemothorax, etc etc...BUT could also have possibly come from wounds sustained from a natural event. Except, things like avalanche, snow slide, blizzard etc. do not equate with other pieces of evidence either. If avalanche, snow slide etc, there would be many more bone fractures, broken wrists, arms, legs, not only ribs. Not ONE other bone was broken on any of the 9 except the ribs and those with skull fractures. In the natural event too, the tent would not have been found as undisturbed as it was: nothing was crushed or destroyed except one ski pole which seemed to be an intentional act. The wounds at both scenes are entirely different from each other, it's almost as if these were 2 separate events entirely. Compare the cedar/forest/snow den injuries...2 different events. And finally, every body was moved within only a few hours after death except Igor's. How does any natural event explain that? These conversations and exchanges of ideas are fabulous!! Thank you for all you add to them!! We all just want the truth, not to be right...
 

January 29, 2022, 12:14:24 PM
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Teddy

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I believe at the time, there was every effort to be respectful of the dead, yet use the dead to ascertain the cause of their demise. Exhumation today would not add to what is known. It would be more of a comparison  of their mortal residue when buried versus when exhumed, as opposed to making new discovery.  I appreciate forensics have progressed since 1959, but I recall an incident where archaeological experts concluded animal bones had microscopic scratches indicative of cut marks from stone age tools,  hence hominid hunters. Then, another researcher demonstrated that if bones are trampled by other animals,they can leave similar cut marks from abrasion by gravel. I fear that reexamination of the bodies could still produce ambiguity. That, unless a bullet or broken knife blade was found among the bones. At some point we separate quest for truth from morbid curiosity. I think we all quest in this forum. I believe they died by making the right choice to camp on 1079 rather than slog through deep snow in the forest. When fear struck, Nature held the high card. They were too cold, too hungry, too hurt and too weak to overcome a compelling natural force. Exhumation wouldn't change that. Would it?  What a thought provoking group of serious thinkers we have. Excellent.

I am with GlennM on this. What did the exhumation do other than drag his name into the mud and the whole world to know all the intimate details of his life. The circus with the DNA is to this day unsolved since it could be his brother for all we know, his is executed, but it could be a conspiracy so instead of moving ahead we now have more ghosts to sort out. The bones confirmed Vozrozdenniy's report which is something big and flat hit with Zolotaryov with great force. I was explained by the modern coroners that the scapula, unless you make a Y cut on the back is not visible on the front. You need to be looking for something in particular to open a body from behind, and it was not done because the cause of death was found on the front - multiple fractures of Zolotaryov’s ribs with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused pre-mortem as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest. The forensic expert Sergey Nikitin said the same thing: "It was a powerful blow." So how did the exhumation help?

But since we are at such a dead end
I am not at a dead end. There are things that could have caused this injuries and I am perplexed how everyone is overlooking them. I am now pointing at them and you are still at a dead end.
I summarized the theory in very broad strokes here: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1051.msg17199#msg17199
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 01:51:16 PM by Teddy »
 

January 29, 2022, 05:15:47 PM
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GlennM


Teddy and Elizabeth,
I thank you for stimulating intelligent conversation and thought provoking comments. I sincerely mean this. Teddy, when I read 1079, I thought the fallen branch explanation was a very good one. Where I run into problems is that there was no fallen branch reported, yes? If the branch is associated with gross neglect and a cover up, would the tent show tree damage and would there be debris on and in the canvas? If a branch fell, why not use it for a fire? If a branch fell, why not photograph it? If there was criminal neglect involved, why stage an improbable scenario with not one but three locations? When the Russian government re opened the case, a fallen branch was never considered because it did not agree with the physical evidence.
I admire the scholarly work that is 1079. In the absence of other evidence, I believe the hikers kept to the high ground because the forest had such deep snow to plow through. I think only an event that produced a ground tremor would be sufficiently alarming to compel nine intelligent people to destroy their shelter, abandon their clothes and shoes. What I dont understand is how anyone in their right mind could walk a mile in an undressed state without coming to their senses. A fallen branch would be swift and certain, but that is not where the tent was.
 

January 30, 2022, 01:15:42 AM
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Teddy

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there was no fallen branch reported, yes?

No. No one was looking for one. The forest is full of fallen trees though. The bodies are moved to Ivdel morgue and back. Why do you expect them to be found under a branch?
 

January 30, 2022, 09:14:28 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Going to read what Teddy posted now. After doing some other reading, as grizzly as exhumation is, many cold cases have been solved as a result of the process. Most ppl are appalled by the idea of exhumation. Not sure why I'm not. But if Semyon's exhumation produced nothing and only became a topic of sensationalism and disrespect, then obviously I agree there is little to be had with the others and another of my ideas gets chucked out the window. But if Teddy says there is no dead end, then I've got my shovel ready to do some more digging. Damn, my arms are tired....

GlennM, other than the exhumation debacle, as per my other post, I was wondering what you thought about my speculations, knowing that you are convinced (???) or maybe leaning far to believing this was a natural accident. I want so badly to believe it was natural but as I said in my last post.... neg1 
 

January 30, 2022, 04:59:52 PM
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GlennM


We need a more or less specific branch. It strikes a tent in a particular way with hikers positioned optimally within  but leaving no traces of damage. I would expect sap and debris on the outside of the tent and blood stains on the inside. If the tent was instead gathered up and moved a mile uphill, how would the conspirators know the accepted arrangement for setting up the tent and contents? Would they all not die with their boots on? Who would be so foolish as to leave a flashlight on top? If bodies were moved within hours of death, thawed and repositioned, I doubt the hands could be shaped . I doubt a corpse could be positioned so as to be climbing up the ravine wall. I believe that a fall from a rooftop of 20 feet could produce skull and rib fractures, so falling into a rocky ravine seems plausible and natural. It is just hard for me to accept people finding and loading up corpses on a sled to look them over and do other things to obfuscate their deaths. I can not imagine staging thee, no four scenes (1) tent, (2) three in snow(3) two at tree with cut branches and camp fire (4) four posed in a ravine. I can not believe authorities would be so deceived.

The tree scenario and an attack scenario selectively explain much. If a corpse has wood or bullet or anything of the sort, that would be compelling evidence. None was found. None will be found. It reduces to whether an investigator, them or us, chooses to believe someone got away with murder, or alternately, a transient natural event shook up the hikers who misjudged their ability to cope and paid the ultimate price for adventure I still hold with the latter. Comments?.
 

January 30, 2022, 06:28:47 PM
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ElizabethHarris


A fall from where though? Where are all these injuries coming from? If there was a ground tremor and they ran off into the darkness, got confused and were found dead from hypothermia, it would be case closed. But we know this didn't happen and the injuries do not fit this scenario. Burns? Near-scalpings? Ground tremors that cause hikers to run for the lives could result in some broken bones here and there before freezing to death but crushed thyroids, hemothoraxes, elongated necks, black eyes, pinched nostrils, bodies all found in prone position (whereas most hypothermics die in fetal) evidence of physical subdual (bruises on ankles, hands and wrists that correlate with ligature markings) and the fact that the spots created during livor mortis showed they were in different positions when they died as compared to the positions they were found in are just some of the physical evidence that cannot be reconciled with a neat and simple explanation of bad tent placement and an unknown, transient natural force that spooked them into the woods a mile away without stopping or looking back. I think one of the best quotes from this case came from Yuri Yudin himself when he said something like, "If this all was just the result of hypothermia or a simple avalanche, we would not still be talking about it 50 years later." I couldn't agree more. When those hikers and sherpas were killed on K2, yes it was confusing and hard to sort through the play-by-play evidence of what happened, but a resolution came quickly, the findings were logical and the case was solved. The deaths at k2 had nothing mind bogglingly bizarre about what could have happened out there. It should be the same here but it isn't even close. Why? Because the bodies and crime scenes at Dyatlov do not fit logically. There was interference. Whether it was conspiracy, coverup, govt holding back evidence, human tampering or whatever else, nothing that happened here was simple. Something complex went on, something with varying elements we've been so far unable to put together perfectly. Avalanches are easy to put together, so are many forces of nature. I don't think we can conclude these deaths were simple because if they were, putting the pieces of the puzzle back together would also be simple. "If this was all the result of hypothermia or an avalanche, we wouldn't still be talking about it all these years later..." I think Mr. Yudin's words say it all.
 

January 31, 2022, 07:51:22 AM
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GlennM


Elizabeth, what a compelling arguement. My only reply would be that the next step is to follow the money. Where would that take this investigation?
 

February 01, 2022, 08:07:55 AM
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ElizabethHarris


I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by follow the money.
 

February 01, 2022, 09:07:52 PM
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GlennM


All behavior is motivated. A criminal conspiracy is motivated. There is a payoff at some point, be it power, prestige, influence or just plain money. By following the money, one can deduce who had the most to gain from their nefarious actions. It is unlikely anyone worked alone. It is also a truism that there is no honor among thieves. Nine good people did not get put to death without somebody getting some advantage from it. Follow the money, I say. If there is no money trail, it's back to Nature.
 

February 02, 2022, 11:25:39 AM
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Ziljoe


All behavior is motivated. A criminal conspiracy is motivated. There is a payoff at some point, be it power, prestige, influence or just plain money. By following the money, one can deduce who had the most to gain from their nefarious actions. It is unlikely anyone worked alone. It is also a truism that there is no honor among thieves. Nine good people did not get put to death without somebody getting some advantage from it. Follow the money, I say. If there is no money trail, it's back to Nature.

I agree with this. If it was outsiders there has to be a motive. This does not directly mean money but some kind of reward. Given the location and environment , i personally can't see why outsiders would choose this location to do an attack .

I can't add anything much to what's already Been said. It does look like the trigger was a natural event.
 
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February 03, 2022, 07:43:14 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Motive isn't necessary in a court of law to convict in US. Who knows why people do the things they do? Some motives are clear, others are not. You follow the evidence, circumstantial and direct, without having to know the "why". The "why" would be nice, but so would a decent autopsy report.
 

February 03, 2022, 08:57:22 AM
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Manti


The problem with the "falling into a rocky ravine" causing the rib, skull etc. injuries is that if you look at for example contemporary photos of recent expeditions to the pass, the ravine is not really a ravine at all. There is no cliff to fall off of. Maybe there was an ice formation that broke and fell onto them?
 

February 03, 2022, 10:49:18 AM
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Manti


Thinking about this more... some causes for the ravine injuries might be

  • Being thrown out of a helicopter alive - I would discount this possibility
  • Ice cornice breaking and falling on them.. maybe, still I can't see where it would have formed in/around the ravine area
  • Maybe they all climbed the tree and fell out of it due to hypothermia - becoming too weak to hold on.
Other than these possibilities, there's always the falling tree option.
 

February 03, 2022, 03:25:39 PM
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GlennM


Extreme cold makes you stupid and less protective of your body.I think.