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Author Topic: Leave the den to die?  (Read 3617 times)

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May 03, 2018, 04:19:23 PM
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cz


I know the den is controversial here but I will now assume there was one and that it provided some shelter.

One aspect that keeps me thinking is: why were they not in there? I guess they were not in need of fresh air so what reason may they have had to leave the shelter as a group. A second escape story? One of them died from hypothermia just a few feet from a snow shelter? Remarkable...

Any opinions?
 

May 03, 2018, 06:48:59 PM
Reply #1
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Loose}{Cannon

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My thinking is...

There is a slope on both sides that make the ravine a ravine.  If said snow was deep enough on on side or at the bottom to dig said den, then it was deep enough to collapse on them OR slide onto them.  Hense the injuries.
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 05, 2018, 03:32:37 PM
Reply #2
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cz


A very good point you have here. The situation in the ravine when they came there was certainly different from the situation when they were found.

As their bodies lay at the bottom of the ravine, I tend to believe it was not filled with snow. I can imagine snow piling up on them but how should they get beneath it. Even a small avalanche would likely not bury them below an existing snow cover. Hard to believe it melted in between...

When the den floor remained intact it seems unlikely that the entire flank of the ravine went off along with them inside.

Perhaps they were still constructing when snow started shifting. Actually it makes some sense to think that all were still in comparably good health condition so that nobody had to rest in there before they all got hit by something.

This is all quite speculative of course...

 

May 05, 2018, 07:13:00 PM
Reply #3
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Loose}{Cannon

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If the slide came from the north and the den was on the south...... it would have just filled in the den.   declare1
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 07, 2018, 04:23:26 PM
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cz


So, maybe this is just it. Buried by snow while potentially constructing a den. From what I read of zolotarev's exhumation, it remains a plausible hypothesis.
 

May 07, 2018, 06:11:37 PM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


So, maybe this is just it. Buried by snow while potentially constructing a den. From what I read of zolotarev's exhumation, it remains a plausible hypothesis.


Regarding Zolotarev, it may be questioned whether his injuries were caused by snow. It has been suggested that his injuries were caused by separate blows to the rib cage and to the area around the shoulder blade (scapula).

One might also suggest that the injuries of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle are not exactly typical of what happens when one is buried by snow either:

http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Nikolai-Thibeaux-Brignolle-autopsy-report.png

The lack of obvious damage to soft tissue can be explained by his wearing headgear which protected the skin and soft tissues but could not prevent the energy of the blow from crushing the bone.

It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

- broken nose
- open wound behind ear, size 3x1.5 cm
- deformed neck

One could insist that a deformed neck could be the result of pressure force from a large mass of snow, but both a deformed neck and a broken nose? Perhaps, but the open wound behind the ear seems hardly typical of what happens if someone is buried by masses of snow. Considered together, chances are that other explanations are more probable.

There is a comment on this site which deserves to be quoted:

"Broken nose, open wound behind the ear and deformed neck might be the result of a fight and be cause of death. On the other hand it could have been caused by natural elements since the body was exposed to nature for three whole months. Yet the doctor ignores this matter and doesn't try to explain the reason for these strange injuries. We should probably add that snapped neck and blow behind the ear is a common sign of killing performed by special forces. However we can't be sure about this since the autopsy report didn't specify any more details about the body. We are left guessing on the nature and origin of these injuries."
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 06:35:19 PM by Per Inge Oestmoen »
 

May 07, 2018, 09:23:19 PM
Reply #6
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
Regarding Zolotarev, it may be questioned whether his injuries were caused by snow. It has been suggested that his injuries were caused by separate blows to the rib cage and to the area around the shoulder blade (scapula)

And those two separate blows 'could' have been the result of first being hit by said collapsing wall of heavy ice, and the second when it threw them onto rocks in the bottom of that ravine......  likely the ones they were lying on and slumped over.


Quote
One might also suggest that the injuries of Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle are not exactly typical of what happens when one is buried by snow either:


See above


Quote
The lack of obvious damage to soft tissue can be explained by his wearing headgear which protected the skin and soft tissues but could not prevent the energy of the blow from crushing the bone.

Agreed


Quote
It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

Unless of course it was actually pretty hard pack snow/ice..... what happens naturally under its own weight. Speaking of weight, just how many hundreds or thousands of tons of packed snow/ice are we talking?   I dunno, but thats a lot of force throwing you head first into a boulder.    twitch7


Quote
It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

The thing is,  this theory isnt referring to a wee little patch of fluffy light snow dusting the group.

See this mound of a pack-ice drift on the south bank, and see those rocks WAY down thar?  Sure dont look safe to me! 

kinda like getting hit by a truck and it throws you into boulders.   shock1




« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 09:30:57 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 07, 2018, 09:35:21 PM
Reply #7
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Loose}{Cannon

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Snow has a strange way of being blown onto only one side of a valley/ravine (big azz drift), building up, becoming more dense under its own weight.  Perfect example from the search/investigation photos.  You aint gonna catch me digging into the base of this mess next to that boulder the size of a Volvo down thar.....   nope. 


All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 08, 2018, 02:04:16 AM
Reply #8
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Quote
Regarding Zolotarev, it may be questioned whether his injuries were caused by snow. It has been suggested that his injuries were caused by separate blows to the rib cage and to the area around the shoulder blade (scapula)

And those two separate blows 'could' have been the result of first being hit by said collapsing wall of heavy ice, and the second when it threw them onto rocks in the bottom of that ravine......  likely the ones they were lying on and slumped over.


Quote
It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

Unless of course it was actually pretty hard pack snow/ice..... what happens naturally under its own weight. Speaking of weight, just how many hundreds or thousands of tons of packed snow/ice are we talking?   I dunno, but thats a lot of force throwing you head first into a boulder.    twitch7


Quote
It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

The thing is,  this theory isnt referring to a wee little patch of fluffy light snow dusting the group.

See this mound of a pack-ice drift on the south bank, and see those rocks WAY down thar?  Sure dont look safe to me! 

kinda like getting hit by a truck and it throws you into boulders.   shock1



Yes, of course, the separate blows could be caused by the snow and ice making Zolotarev and Dubinina! bouncing around almost like in a giant meat grinder, whereas Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle got very different injuries from the very same impact. It is particularly impressive that Thibeaux-Brignolle got a pointed injury to his head while others got their torsos severely damaged. The large wound behind the ear of Kolevatov is definitely a proof that this particular snow was into serious business!

The snow in the area must have been working very creatively indeed. 

We can also make a similar listing of the injuries suffered by two other members of the team, and we can have a look at Slobodin and Kolmorogova.

We might first take a look at the injuries of Rustem Slobodin. He had these injuries:

- hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
- minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
- two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
- brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
- traces of blood discharge from the nose
- swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
- bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fight
- brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
- swollen lips
- bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
- epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
- fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)

Of course, we should believe that these injuries were caused by Slobodin's stumbling around in the snowy landscape. If a man can first go out in the cold without proper clothing and without winter gloves, and then receive all these injuries including bruised knuckles, damaged nose, abrasions on his face and a fractured skull by stumbling around in the wintery landscape, most people must be thankful that they will never meet that kind of snow. It must have had an extraordinarily hard, brutal and evil crust. 

Zinaida Kolmogorova showed the following injuries:

- dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
-  pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
-  dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
-  brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
-  numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
-  bruised skin on the right side of the face
-  brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
-  wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
-  a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton

Somehow I have come to believe that it might be just a little unfair to blame the snow and the natural environment for all these injuries.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 02:12:18 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »
 

May 08, 2018, 03:40:30 PM
Reply #9
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cz


 
Quote
The snow in the area must have been working very creatively indeed. 

A very valid point. In defence of the snow hypothesis for the ravine four, I argue that the type of injuries suffered by the individuals would critically depend on how the impact hits them and on what ground they land. Hitting a rock and moving across it with sufficient force can produce all kinds of injuries while one may land in relatively deep snow just a few cm away and suffer comparatively mild concussion.

Also, not all injuries necessarily occurred at the same time. They were cutting down wood, perhaps climbing a tree, and maybe they even got into a fight. They landed in this horrific fridge with very different levels of clothing, and I wonder how this affected the group dynamics. I am convinced they all were great campers, yet
I think loosing temper in such a situation is conceivable.
 

May 08, 2018, 03:49:26 PM
Reply #10
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cz


Snow has a strange way of being blown onto only one side of a valley/ravine (big azz drift), building up, becoming more dense under its own weight.  Perfect example from the search/investigation photos.  You aint gonna catch me digging into the base of this mess next to that boulder the size of a Volvo down thar.....   nope. 

Very impressive image! Maybe you rethink at -25°C in the middle of nowhere...
 

May 08, 2018, 03:50:35 PM
Reply #11
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CalzagheChick


Quote
Regarding Zolotarev, it may be questioned whether his injuries were caused by snow. It has been suggested that his injuries were caused by separate blows to the rib cage and to the area around the shoulder blade (scapula)

And those two separate blows 'could' have been the result of first being hit by said collapsing wall of heavy ice, and the second when it threw them onto rocks in the bottom of that ravine......  likely the ones they were lying on and slumped over.


Quote
It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

Unless of course it was actually pretty hard pack snow/ice..... what happens naturally under its own weight. Speaking of weight, just how many hundreds or thousands of tons of packed snow/ice are we talking?   I dunno, but thats a lot of force throwing you head first into a boulder.    twitch7


Quote
It may be that the injury pattern seen in Alexandr Kolevatov is not what would be expected from being hit by a mass of snow either:

The thing is,  this theory isnt referring to a wee little patch of fluffy light snow dusting the group.

See this mound of a pack-ice drift on the south bank, and see those rocks WAY down thar?  Sure dont look safe to me! 

kinda like getting hit by a truck and it throws you into boulders.   shock1



Yes, of course, the separate blows could be caused by the snow and ice making Zolotarev and Dubinina! bouncing around almost like in a giant meat grinder, whereas Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle got very different injuries from the very same impact. It is particularly impressive that Thibeaux-Brignolle got a pointed injury to his head while others got their torsos severely damaged. The large wound behind the ear of Kolevatov is definitely a proof that this particular snow was into serious business!

The snow in the area must have been working very creatively indeed. 

We can also make a similar listing of the injuries suffered by two other members of the team, and we can have a look at Slobodin and Kolmorogova.

We might first take a look at the injuries of Rustem Slobodin. He had these injuries:

- hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
- minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
- two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
- brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
- traces of blood discharge from the nose
- swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
- bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands (bruised knuckles). Similar bruises are common in hand to hand fight
- brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
- swollen lips
- bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
- epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
- fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)

Of course, we should believe that these injuries were caused by Slobodin's stumbling around in the snowy landscape. If a man can first go out in the cold without proper clothing and without winter gloves, and then receive all these injuries including bruised knuckles, damaged nose, abrasions on his face and a fractured skull by stumbling around in the wintery landscape, most people must be thankful that they will never meet that kind of snow. It must have had an extraordinarily hard, brutal and evil crust. 


 bigjoke lol2 lol1

Zinaida Kolmogorova showed the following injuries:

- dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
-  pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
-  dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
-  brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
-  numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
-  bruised skin on the right side of the face
-  brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
-  wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
-  a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton

Somehow I have come to believe that it might be just a little unfair to blame the snow and the natural environment for all these injuries.

I can agree with that; The conditions hadn't left them any worse for wear on the previous days in the trek. Just this snow on this slope on this mountain. I'm not sure what they're feeding their weather in Soviet Russia on Mount 1079, but daaaaaaaaaang it's brutal stuff when it covers the slope. It's 'roid rage snow.
 

May 08, 2018, 04:33:52 PM
Reply #12
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
If a man can first go out in the cold without proper clothing and without winter gloves, and then receive all these injuries including bruised knuckles, damaged nose, abrasions on his face and a fractured skull by stumbling around in the wintery landscape, most people must be thankful that they will never meet that kind of snow. It must have had an extraordinarily hard, brutal and evil crust.


Welp,  I wasn't exactly referring to all those actions.  Just the one/two punch of a possible collapse.    okey1

Crust....   I would be more afraid of the stuff deeper down.  You know, the stuff thats been packed by pressure caused by it own weight? 
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!