Miscellaneous > Non-DP Related Mysteries!

Chivruay tragedy 1973

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WAB:

--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 01, 2018, 11:42:27 AM ---
The two tragedies are similar in the sense that a team of trekkers lost their lives in mountainous areas during winter time.

--- End quote ---

It is the incomplete list of coincidence. Identical was as also that searches lasted long - боле for a long time than at Woodpeckers of a command, and that different experts - military and civil were involved, and that that bodies were not at once, and in a current more than one half of year, and that conversations and "versions" there was a set, and true result is one event - and it is not connected in any way with mysticism and military events …



--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on June 01, 2018, 11:42:27 AM ---But there the similarities end. The Chivruay tragedy in 1973 was undoubtedly a genuine accident.

--- End quote ---

If to reject all unreal events both these of a case, really are accidents, but with the different reason of their beginning.
I doubt that you so well know their similarity and differences that can describe it accurately and in detail. But there can be I am mistaken …?

WAB:

--- Quote from: CalzagheChick on June 01, 2018, 03:49:28 PM ---Well the photos of these victims look less wholesome and so much more hippie-ish so I'm guessing nobody was really interested in a bunch of frozen hippies.
--- End quote ---

1.In the early seventies many young men looked as hippie. There was such fashion. Therefore there is nothing strange in their kind.
2.This case was discussed in narrow circles of experts, but any agiotage it did not cause. Probably because now the press is more interested in sensations and reception of additional money in this connection. Then there were more realistic and moral times.


--- Quote from: CalzagheChick on June 01, 2018, 03:49:28 PM ---That was totally just typed in gest. Teddy please don't think I was being disrespectful to your post or to the dead.
--- End quote ---

Many publications about this case are written after repeated retellings between various people. Therefore it is a lot of stratifications of a different lie and imaginations.
I have written that saw itself and is direct on a place of events. Compare that has been originally published in this forum, and define that more close to true.


--- Quote from: CalzagheChick on June 01, 2018, 03:49:28 PM ---It was more or less a nod to the political climate in the United States at the time of this event.

--- End quote ---

What do you mean in this phrase?

WAB:

--- Quote from: Teddy on May 30, 2018, 05:53:10 AM ---........................

Ed. note - I can't find any photos of the trek besides the header image that came with the article, although there should be films from the dead hikers.
Links in Russian:
https://vk.com/page-88386342_54855990
Lukoyanov - Safety in skiing and extreme winter conditions

--- End quote ---

Interesting turn of a plot. Just because I know this case not under books, and alive in nature. It is possible to tell that there I worked as Maslennikov, Baskina + Bardin + as Shulezhko and Ortukov in the uniform person. grin1
It is necessary to tell that how this case is described in P.I.Lukojanov's book, contains set of errors and very much is not correctly perceived by the extraneous reader.

Events developed so:
On January, 30th I was called by the head of one of groups of our section of ski travel (at the Moscow state aviation institute - university) Victor Samodelov and has informed that they have found some bodies on pass Chivruaj (these are Lovozersie tundra - mountains; Kola peninsula). They have informed on it in a life-saving service of Murmansk area. The chief of this service - Anatoly Ostrovsky (my good acquaintance and a companion) asked me when Victor's group will arrive to Moscow that I urgently would show films on which Victor has made pictures of the found out tent and bodies. And then with the captain of the first plane who should fly to Kirovsk (there there was a life-saving service centre) has transferred pictures to it. In same put I has shown films, has made prints and itself has taken off for Kirovsk next day. I was the head of a rescue crew of our section, therefore business trip from sport club of our institute and All-Union Main board on tourism have issued at once. There was a small scandal of that in 2 weeks I should defend the diploma in aeronautics on degree (as it is accepted in the USA) equivalent to the master of aeronautics. But all has managed.

When I have arrived to Kirovsk, Anatoly Ostrovsky transfer me directly from the plane to the departing helicopter and we have departed on Chivruai, to survey a place and to transport bodies to Kirovsk. There was the big command including representatives of police, Office of Public Prosecutor, and a life-saving service. Weather was not so good - low visibility, a wind (weak), a frost approximately-20C (-4F). Such frost on Kola peninsula is felt worse than-30 … 35С (-22…-31F) somewhere in Siberia because there is very big humidity - Gulf Stream nearby proceeds and often blow a wind from Arctic regions. We have transported by the helicopter all found 5 bodies in 2 flights in settlement Puncha, and, next day have sent them to Kirovsk. Those who remained, searched some days Lovozersky tundra which has probably survived in vicinities with southern and West side. Weather has deteriorated definitively and to pass pass for searches above there was no possibility. The group of searchers has gone to detour on the lake of Sejd, through the Hank-lip. They surveyed gorge of a stream of Chivruai-ladv, but any traces have not found.
 


The helicopter in settlement Puncha 02.02.1973
 ------------------------------- rem-----------------------------

Sorry, I have many photos from this event but now it is difficult to me to publish all at once. I will try to make in due course it with explanatories. While I can only that is already ready to this text.

-------------------------------and rem-----------------------------

The error of the resulted information consists that it is written off at Evgenie Bujanov who is the author and the rigid supporter of "the avalanche version”. And it, in turn, has written off it at Peter Lukojanov in its last book. And Lukojanov it was told by the one who on a place was not and does not know many details. « Chinese whispers » turns out here such. As it is in a joke: «Karruzo is not able to sing, yesterday Rabinovich by phone has sung to me its aria so I hardly have not combined ears in a tubule …» (с)   bigjoke

In 2010 I objected Bujanov concerning that he has considered this case as analogue to it «the avalanche version». He has answered me that at Lukojanov all is written correctly, and I do not know details of this case. It is especially ridiculous if to consider that I there was from beginning to end searches, and Lukojanov there at all was not. Besides trustworthiness it is possible to consider as criterion that at Lukojanov almost all surnames and weight of details are mixed. I had an impression that Peter Ivanovich Lukojanov, and who wrote not that of its "co-authors". I have worked with Lukojanov about 20 years in section of ski travel at Main board on travel of the USSR, and well I know, how carefully it selected a material. But here set of errors that does doubtful its authorship.

Here my remarks to Evgenie Buyanov's text still in 2010.

For descriptive reasons I will result the disposition map-scheme this day:
 


[I Ten students of Aviation institute of Kuibyshev (КуАИ), heads: Michael Kuznetsov and Valentine Zemljanin, [/I]

This erroneous name , ZemljanOV - its correct his surname!

have begun a route on Lovozersky tundra ("tundra" is mountains of Kola peninsula). This day have passed pass and on wood border in a valley of Elmrajok have risen on a lodging for the night. 26.1. In frosty day (temperature-24 °) have passed the lake of Sejdozero, have risen on the river of Chivruaj and in wood have arranged a halt with hot meal.

This day they did hot meal only on morning parking.

Judging by the film shown later, fairly blizzed.

Did not blizz, and there was a local drifting snow. Films were shown by me, therefore it is exact. If I will find I will put сканы from those films.
Has found, we look ….
 


It is a picture made them above the top lake of the river of Chivruai-Ladv (see the map-scheme). From here to rise ~ 80 m (250 ft) on height at movement on distance ~ 1 km to an exit on a plateau. Visibility is much better, than at Dyatlov team. And snowstorm it is not visible.

Despite start twilight of short January day, nevertheless have begun an ascension on a plateau.

Lifting have begun far before dark, still was about 14.00 (the photo sm), Darkens at 17.00. For 3 hours Chivruai can be passed. Has detained them, and the main error was that have not understood during time - the basic strength of wind is shown only when will leave on a plateau. But here what it adequately to estimate, decent experience and knowledge Kola is necessary. Even other similar areas here do not suit. A relief is original.

Motivation of the decision is unknown. The reasons of haste are not present: the beginning of a route, products is a lot of, pass planned to pass next day.

Anything similar. At them checkpoint time was 31.01 in Kirovsk. A year before, slightly other group with M.Kuznetsov's participation went too from Lovozerie tundra to Khibiny tundra, and has broken checkpoint per day. Them have gone to search, and at passage of Vortkeuai I and have got under an avalanche. The Mihail Kuznetsov remembered it, and we were familiar with it, because it was the commandant of Grushinsky festivals and there met. To walk twice into the same water 2 consecutive times, at them, apparently, the desire was not. And weather worsened that was appreciable by contrast with previous day. It was possible to get stuck on Seid-lake. So, the motivation is clear. Pass they the Western part of the Lovozersky tundra horseshoe, them already would hold nothing also they it is guaranteed have reached to Kirovsk in checkpoint time. Motivation and consequences, this is different concept. And after all it is very easy to say that it would be necessary to make, and that it is not necessary … to Think back mind, it is called …

On a plateau have risen northern way.

Not, through well-known "horn", which dispose to the west of this northern way. On a photo it is visible that they have already passed lifting by northern spur. And western положе and is easier. V.S amodelova's group which then also has found out them on a plateau, has noted exactly same «a trace for a minute» which appears and in the Dyatlov everyday. Just on an exit of the western spur. And between them anybody Chivruai did not pass.

Wind be strong, but barrels in a back.

Anything similar. The wind blew with W-N-W. If it blew in a back, they would fly by 3 km all these on a plateau, «as plywood plane over Paris». That's just the point that the wind was almost counter and strong. To go against a wind it was simply impossible.
------------------------------------- rem-------------------------------
3 years prior to this case, on rescue expeditions - searched for the lost schoolboy from Krasnye Zory-town, I got to a wind of such force on pass Jumegorr. There simply put and dragged on snow unevenness. And not only me, and people with more decent body`s form. There was a wind force of 50 m/s (about 100 mph).
------------------------------------- and rem-------------------------------
Such wind complicated in low temperature of them also has detained. As it was found out for ever.

According to inhabitants of settlements Ilma and Puncha, its speed reached 50 m/s. The temperature has sharply fallen.

Here that was, was! Hydrometeorology station Revda (in Ilme, especially in Punche - already then this settlement of geologists was uninhabited - hydrometeorology point was not.) gave -28C (-18F) and impulses more than 50 m/s (about 100 mph).

have in the dark passed a plateau and have risen at breakage of circus of the river Kitkuaj.

They on top were for certain still before dark. From a picture at the top lake on pass Chivruai-Ladv, to a place where them have found, all that of 1,5 km, and on a plateau they have passed only 500 m. Will go down at once in Kitkuai in their case it was impossible, there difference of 200 metres (650 ft) and a bias nearby 45…60 degrees. At their such wind would leave downwards head over heels, with all that it implies.
If they have passed all plateaus, problems would not be, they have passed only a crosspiece between Chivruai and Kitkuai. The further way should be on W-N-W along breakage to Kitkuai, 2,0 more … 2,5 km (~ 1.5 mil). It would be possible and try to go down to Kuftuai, but it absolutely on a meeting to a wind.
Here Lida Martina and Sasha of Novoselov (well it is direct almost all surnames are mixed at Lukojanov!) also tried to reconnoiter, apparently, this variant …

To go down all together in a valley of the river of Kitkuaj did not become.

No "Became", and "could not". Why, I have written above.

At first, probably, have decided to spend way investigation. Five persons heat have put on and have left. The remained five, hoping that scouts will soon return, have spread tent and have laid down on it. To put tent on a strong wind to them it was not possible. But after all they could bring there backpacks, put on warm things and expect returning of the left.

As it has been made on reality. Here photo Viktor Samodelov group`s (MAI = МАИ) which has found them later on 2 days when weather has improved and began to pass probably normally:
 


Could, but so have not made.

Have made it. And that could is equal. It is interesting, what Peter Ivanych used of «spoilt phone»? [:)]

They lay, densely having nestled to each other. Extreme with наветренной the parties tried to cover itself tent.

On a place well it was visible that the fist of Mishail Kuznetsov in which it compressed a scrap of a delay of tent stuck out of snow. (On photo it is visible, truth badly)

[I Two from scouts have decided to return to the remained group. Young man Novosenov has put on all warm clothes the companion, and itself remained in a cowboy shirt. [/I]

No, all not so. Not so it is romantic, and not so it is resolute. Them have found in 200 m from tent. Apparently, they came back from way investigation to Kuftuai. Hardly they could leave far in those conditions. They had all signs cold stress, for example, when the person thinks that to it hot and starts to undress. That is interesting, have found them in March, next day, after I have left from the second calling of searches. The helicopter has blown off clods of snow at an airfield and has seemed what that фал (a rope, clothes piece.). Before that place many times (some tens, have sat down not honeycombs) examined and did not notice any signs at those stones where they have then appeared.

Altshuller with two companions has safely gone down in a valley, but they have appeared in an original trap: without skis settlement not to reach, and to return back against a wind there were no forces.

It too does not represent the facts. The wind below, especially in those places where them then have found, always happens essentially smaller. They any more did not have forces and heat stocks what to resist to a cold. And they have frozen. All had movement signs on a logical trajectory of returning to tent. By 2 different variants. Ilya Altshuller was all in 300 m (1000 ft) from tent. But in 80 m (250 ft) more low under breakage. To rise there basically it is possible, and to all signs it went upwards.

Control term has expired 31.01. Snowstorm and a strong wind have prevented disembarkation of rescuers to a plateau of Chivruaj. They have reached there on skis only 6.02.

It does not represent the facts at all. Viktor Samodelov Group found them as 28.01.
January, 29 evening they were in Kirovsk and have informed on a find to A.Ostrovsky (chief rescue service of Murmansk region). At the Same night they have left to Moscow, preliminary having called me and having reported the matter. January, 31 films with found out group KuAI have been received, shown and printed. In particular that is resulted above. In the night from 1 for February, 2nd I have taken off for Kirovsk. In the morning on February, 2nd, Ostrovsky has replaced at once from the plane to the helicopter (Mi-4) and we have departed to remove group on Chivruai.
6.02 Kirovsk`s rescue team sat already on Punche and 2nd day was engaged in searches on the Southern extremity of Lovozerie and in a valley of Kitkuai. Weather was bad, to rise on a plateau for sense searches was not. Swept, and there was a low visibility. And so till February, 10th. Then I have left.
On hands to remove group from a plateau it was impossible, there by helicopter that was necessary to take out all to 2 flights. The third have removed rescuers.

In 10 m from circus breakage have found out five frozen bodies and nearby - a two more. On inscriptions on skis and in a notebook of "KuAI" it became clear that tourists from Kuibyshev.

It was informed by Victor still on January, 29th.

Searches of the others proceeded all the month long. 27.02. In a valley of the river of Kitkuai on an exit from gorge in 2 km from circus have found a two, in 10 m from each other.

Them have found not 27.02, and where that in 20 dates of April, or in general in the beginning of May, when a valley of Kitkuai of the beginning already thaw. In February there to snow completely and to find anything it was impossible. There snow element from tops. All time only strews, instead of decreases.

Their hours have stopped about 5 mornings. Only on June, 1st at the right slope of gorge in 400 m from a place of  destruction of a two have found last victim - Altshuller. He has been warmly dressed, but without mittens. Hours have stopped at 4.33.

Besides the lie, Hours have stopped at 6.05 with seconds, Yury Kozin dictated me this time when I wrote the detection report. And when Jura has warmed them, they have gone. It was the ending of our epopee with research of a stop of hours on the frozen corpses. In March we froze them in any ways. Then have found, under what conditions they freeze. It was necessary to find out only, will go then or not. Also were afraid that the clockwork could be ended.
4.33,  IIRC (If I Recall Correctly или If I Remember Correctly), this time which was on hours at A. Novoselov.

On duration and complexity спасработ, чивруайская the tragedy has surpassed failure of Dytlov in a death toll. Interesting, as here has not done without false assumptions about any «military tests», « secrecy » materials of search and participation in it "KGB".

Yes. The version: «Have left on foot through the North Pole to America!» Was one of the first.

Reasons were resulted about the same, as at failure of Djatlova: participation of military men, dimness of a skin of lost,

Well where without it? Here please:
 

«Orange colour»

«the condolence of the authorities», etc. with Dyatlov case is a lot of Signs of similarity of this failure.

It is a lot of, also what? There was an avalanche? There was a transportation to 1,5 km (~ 1 mil)? There were traumas type …? They escape from tent?

Here too the unsuccessful decision on descent,

It is not necessary to tell about what have no representation. There would be a possibility to go down, there would be no case.

division of group,  destruction from freezing, - group in shelter and one by one on a slope.

About what "shelter" at Dyatlov team talk ?? Or at us already the flooring began to be called as shelter??

As a result:
1.   Well and where here meaningless actions and uncontrollable losses of equipment??
2.   At such "carefulness" of preparation and a material statement, it is possible to tell everything. I do not learn the Item And.
And it can any more it, the book that left already then. I feel, here without "co-author" has not managed.
And you still try to assure me, what all that is written - the real truth?? Well-well ….

*********************************************************

WAB:
Excuse me, old references do not work. I will try to reboot them now, but I do not know, whether time for it … will suffice me

WAB:

--- Quote from: WAB on June 13, 2018, 08:41:31 AM ---Excuse me, old references do not work. I will try to reboot them now, but I do not know, whether time for it … will suffice me

--- End quote ---

Has made new references. Now should be are visible to a photo and schemes

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