Theories Discussion > Murdered
The Eleventh line
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Charles on September 15, 2022, 04:36:07 AM --- Reply #9
Reuss you pretend to give lessons of morals and "politeness", but you didn’t have the courtesy to send me a personal message before to post your Reply #4, courtesy which would have given you the ability to learn that this reply of you was off topic and useless....
--- End quote ---
I have never claimed to be a model of courtesy here (My area of expertise is limited to some basic Physics).
By the way, the proof of my rudeness (impoliteness) is that I didn't even realise that I shouldn't have sent my Reply #4, #6 and #8 posts.
--- Quote from: Charles on September 15, 2022, 04:36:07 AM --- Reply #9
.......... You know since August 23 when I informed you by personal message, and since September 13 by my public Reply #5 that your Reply #4 was off topic...........
--- End quote ---
I can only say again that I do not usually look in :
"View the most recent posts on the forum."
and not in :
"My Messages - Read your message"
Charles ---> The Den and the fire at the Cedar were made by the attackers, not by the hikers
This is also the opinion of EBE who wrote :
EBE : Murdere/Re: Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events --> December 16, 2021, 12:05:16 PM --> Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=844.msg16775#msg16775
...I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides....
Charles ---> ]"The most fatal aspect for the young hikers was to threaten the activities of senior officers, not very high ranking KGB and Military, but local chiefs who had just enough power and all means of action at their disposal at a local level, who were all "head" of some small department and had criminal records for most of them, sort of local and mediocre mobsters or warlords, and thus the hikers had no way out, they were doomed.
And in the present hypothesis, there was one last character who could have played a role:
PRODANOV Ivan Stepanovich (1906-1964) in 1959 - 1st secretary of the city party committee in Ivdel...
Charles' theory seems to me to have several points in common with that of Aleks Kandr (from which I draw inspiration, hence the acronym TOK).
For Aleks Kandr, there is a hateful character, poorly identified but rich, whom he calls the zakaztchik : Заказчик (English: sponsor, boss...French: commanditaire) who pays three hired killers to massacre the hikers, which they succeed in doing on 2 February 1959.
In
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova?showall=&start=6
You can get an overview in just a few lines:
..There were the hired killers sent by someone in the leadership of the Vizhay colony, who had some personal motive to kill the tourists as representatives of the "metropolitan youth", which may have been exacerbated by their negative attitude towards political changes in the country after Stalin's death, including the results of the 1956 20th Party Congress to ease repressive pressure on the prisoners, and against the background of the 21st Congress of the CPSU which was taking place on those days...
So the zakaztchik could be Prodanov ???
--- Quote from: Charles on September 15, 2022, 04:36:07 AM --- Reply #9
..........................................
And why don’t you copy/past your "politeness" alarms on the thread CrimsonPod also incriminating Prodanov.................
--- End quote ---
Dyatlov Pass Forum --> Factual Information --> Materials Modern --> Publications / Media --> CrimsonPod Feb 1, 2022
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1051.msg17183#msg17183
I did not react by sending an "alarm" on this subject for several reasons:
The premeditated murder of 9 people (of which Prodanov is allegedly guilty) is a particularly indefensible act from all points of view.
While the staging according to "1079" seems to me to be a venial offence.
Moreover, this concealment may benefit from extenuating circumstances:
The justified fear of being judged and sentenced with unjust severity.
And also the staging in question seems to me difficult to achieve.
--- Quote from: Charles on September 15, 2022, 04:36:07 AM --- Reply #9
..........................................
And why don’t you copy/past your "politeness" alarms ... on the thread Zolotaryov’s meltdown? ....
--- End quote ---
Dyatlov Pass Forum -->Theories Discussion --> Zolotaryov's meltdown
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=723.msg10873#msg10873
Author Aleksandr Surkov
For 3 reasons :
1) - Surkov took great formal precaution in prefacing his text with the explicit warning:
All events and characters are fictional, any ressemblance to real events and people is purely coincidental.
2) - It seems completely implausible to me that Zolotariov, who was himself killed, would suddenly become a psychopathic serial killer.
We have no evidence (clue) to support this.
3) - GlennM understands a very fine but profound criticism when he says:
"this scenario really ticks a lot of boxes and would make a great movie. "
Indeed, a sequence of logical arguments on slightly distorted data can lead to an amusing and seemingly sound final conclusion, albeit one so improbable as to be implausible
In French we say: c'est du cinéma (entertaining fantasy with no relation to reality).
--- Quote from: Charles on September 15, 2022, 04:36:07 AM --- Reply #9
..............I look forward to read your denunciations…
But no, you don’t care at all, about any of them:
you just want to troll the present thread, and you succeeded as there are now more off topic replies than replies discussing the original topic of the thread. Congratulations, you got what you wanted.
--- End quote ---
Charles: I can only repeat that I still do not understand your reproaches or blames at all.
Charles ---> I look forward to read your denunciations.
• which or what dénouncement or denunciations?
Charles ---> no, you don’t care at all, about any of them:
• any of them ? Who are they?
Charles ---> you just want to troll the present thread,
• I do not want to troll: I am simply saying that before writing on the Internet the name of the culprit of a horrendous crime - which can be considered, by some with good reason, as pure slander - should we not think a little calmly?
Charles ---> you succeeded as there are now more off topic replies than replies discussing the original topic of the thread.
• It is 16 September 2022, I hope to have the opportunity to read more posts in the future discussing the original topic of the thread.
Charles ---> Congratulations, you got what you wanted.
• What I want is to find the most likely explanation for (what I believe to be) the murder of the 9 hikers.
Which for me is more or less the same as developing my TOK theory, which will have to give plausible answers to the questions How ?, Who ? and Why ?
I may even add :
while being well aware that the promoters of the non-criminal versions will always be in the majority, active and powerful.
Ziljoe:
Hi Charles,
I don't fully understand your graph/ ilastration. The bit that looks like sign waves with doted lines, etc. If you could put a key to what the double lines and dashed lines represent would be useful?
Ziljoe:
Thanks Charles,
I don't fully get it yet, in its entirety. That May say more about me than you. So please don't take it as a criticism. For me , it doesn't translate well, but I think I know what your trying to represent and it is important to your hypothesis and again, it's a new angle for a possible motive . I would like to hear other members comments too.
WAB:
I haven't been on this forum in a long time and now I've read the latest posts and I feel very sorry that the forum has become very "yellowed". It's similar to the "yellow press" online. The discussion here has been reduced to a lot of rumor and gossip that has absolutely nothing to do with reality. I understand that it is very difficult to understand the actual events of another state 60+ years later, but to distort them as much as you do here is no longer possible. I remember well the events in my life back then and am quite capable of judging it from a modern perspective, as I have no distortions related to fiction. I saw and see everything in reality. In addition, I have the ability to judge many things from a professional point of view.
I'm very sorry, but there is a lot of questionable or unreliable information on this resource as well. So much of it is in the form of rumors, myths, and gossip.
How far off judgement is I can illustrate by the example of the last post I read.
Dear Charles, please don't be offended by me, but everything I say is based on 100% reality.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---About helicopters
In the memoirs of Boris Slobtsov there is a story about the capture of fugitive prisoners, which gave rise to a number of versions associated with gulag convicts, aka zeks. But there really was an escape! In the State Archives, they managed to find a book of escape registration for 1959, from which it follows that on February 19, a group of three prisoners escaped immediately after Gordo called Vizhay. They will only be caught on February 21, when Gordo and Blinov were already there. Does this have something to do with why the investigation doesn't ask them what exactly happened on the spot at that period?
https://dyatlovpass.com/hakimov
Here we don't care about the date of Feb. 21 but about the one of Feb. 01.
And there:
- BORDYUGOV Albert Aleksandrovich (Бордюгов Альберт Александрович), the Commander of helicopter unit of the 123rd air squadron (Ivdel); flew the Po-2 aircraft and the Mi-1 and Mi-4 helicopters. In February 1959, he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the settlement of Vershina.
- TOLSTOV Andrey Andreevich (Толстов Андрей Андреевич) a pilot of MI-1, air squadron 123 - Ivdel. In February 1959, he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the village of Vershina.
- USTYUZHANIN V. (Устюжанин В.) Commander of the An-2 squadron of the 123rd air squadron - Ivdel. Unconfirmed reports suggest: in February 1959 he took part in the search for geologists of the Northern prospecting party №7 of the Bazhenov expedition in the area of the village of Vershina. In the local newspaper he was mentioned as V. Ustinov by mistake.
This rescue operation in Vershina took place at mid-February, but what is written in the flight logs of 123 Air Squadron around Feb. 01? Did they have missions? How many? When? What were the missions? Who was piloting? Who were the passengers?
--- End quote ---
Before moving on, I would like to clarify what has already been said:
1. The Vershina settlement is so far away from the place of events on the Dyatlov Pass that it is possible not to talk about it. For example, here is a diagram (based on Google-images, which is a reliable representation of reality and allows you to accurately measure distances) which can explain everything:
https://disk.yandex.ru/i/kFHOmfttSYsSpA
The straight line distance is already commensurate with the practical range of the Mi-4 helicopter that was used there. Therefore, we cannot really speak about any connection of these events.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---And what was the status of Gladyrev before Mar. 13, 1959?
- GLADYREV Pyotr Vasilyevich (Гладырев Петр Васильевич) (1922-1960) When in 1958 first helicopters entered squadron service, he did transition training for flying a helicopter and on March 13, 1959 he was confirmed as a plane commander of MI-4 helicopter.
That is to say on Feb. 01, 1959, Gladyrev was able to pilot a MI-4 helicopter but he was not registered as an official MI-4 pilot, is that correct?
--- End quote ---
No. This is a fundamentally erroneous opinion. Earlier than the date when the order of appointment came out, i.e. the completion of retraining, the pilot could not be allowed to fly. In addition, he had to undergo flight training under the supervision of an instructor who was already admitted and had extensive flying experience. Therefore, he had to start flying independently for some time after that.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---Gladyrev was only officially confirmed as MI-4 pilot on March 13, 1959, that very same day when Prodanov was appointed head of operational search? bang1
--- End quote ---
Prodanov was not appointed to that position. This service did not exist at that time or there at all. You made that up yourself. He was the "very first person" in the area, so all the telephone assignments were secondary and insignificant. Don't put too much emphasis on that here, it will only confuse understanding.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---Gladyrev who was later "killed along with the crew (6 people were killed in total) in the MI-4 accident in the Ivdel region on July 19, 1960", and accident decimating the 123 Air Squadron?
--- End quote ---
What do you mean "air squadron 123 was destroyed"? It existed before and continued to exist until 1992, when it was transferred to the second Sverdlovsk Air Company, only changing its name and management. Only one helicopter and crew were killed.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---And why did V.V. Potyazhenko lie to Maria Piskareva: "V.V. said that in May he did not refuse to carry bodies to Sverdlovsk, since only there was a requirement to put them in metal containers"?
--- End quote ---
He didn't lie about anything. You either misunderstood in a bad translation, or you are purposely distorting the meaning. Such distortions in memory are called memory aberrations in psychology. There is nothing surprising about this. When a person is already about 90 years old and is describing events that were 60 years ago, he may also have forgotten episodes and misunderstandings and misconceptions. The same psychology talks about it this way: valid information is replaced by noise information (which has nothing to do with actual information). In life, it is impossible to ward off other (noisy) information, because that is life itself.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---It is well established from the radiograms of Ortyukov and the replies of Prodanov that the pilots did refuse to carry the bodies. Why try to undermine the submission to Prodanov's authority? Potyazhenko's correct answer would have been: "we refused to carry bodies to Sverdlovsk but we were obeying Prodanov's order" not we "did not refuse to carry bodies".
--- End quote ---
You are misrepresenting the original information. Prodanov could not have given any orders to military pilots. That is a different department. Even a general of another branch of the military could not give orders to pilots. I had a case in practice where an infantry general ordered to load equipment and fly. The crew commander replied, "I can load, but I won't take off because it's against flight rules." There it was a matter of overloading the plane and improper alignment of the cargo, and the general wanted to send it off faster. But there was nothing he could do.
In the same way, Potyazhenko would not take the bodies because they were packed in violation of the instructions for transporting such cargo.
That is why your phrase: "Potyazhenko's correct answer would be: "we refused to take the bodies to Sverdlovsk, but we were following Prodanov's order" (c) is false.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---What is the role of the helicopter pilots? Why do we have records of all type of activity at any dates but only silence about Feb. 01?
--- End quote ---
And why should you be told about February 1 in the context of the events at Dyatlov Pass, if no one flew there, because nothing was known yet?
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---We know what the pilots were doing in the 1940s and the 1970s but not the slightest information about Jan. 30 - Feb. 02, 1959?
--- End quote ---
Just as it is unknown about so many periods at any other time...
You press so diligently on all the unknowns that it begs the question: what do you want to achieve, to find out what was real, or to prove some fiction of your own? If that's the second part of the question, what does it have to do with actual events?
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---Here is a very interesting photo about life in the Northern Urals:
We can see on the same photo a ZIL-157 6x6 truck on the left, a MI-8 helicopter, a tracked vehicle and sledges, the "sledges on iron pipes" that Dryahlyh was mentioning, at the right. Only Mansi reindeers are missing, but we have there all kinds of Russian means of transport used in the Northern regions. A glimpse into everyday life in the Urals.
--- End quote ---
Only you misjudge the whole thing.
This is not a Mi-8 helicopter, but a Mi-2. I flew one, so I can tell right away.
2. This picture is from a later period, about 10...15 years later, so it makes no sense to judge what was in 1959.
3. Actually, what are you going to compare, prove or decide with this picture? It can't help in any way to understand what happened.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---The MI-4 was not a creation of Soviet engineers but a copy of the American Sikorsky H-19 designed in 1949.
--- End quote ---
Once again, you are giving misleading information. The similarity with the Sikorsky H-19 is only in the same layout. By the way, this layout was originally theoretically proposed by Boris Yuryev back in 1911. He was a student of Professor Nikolai Zhukovsky (by the way, my distant relative). Therefore, the resemblance was only in appearance. Yuryev also invented the "automatic tilt mechanism" in the same 1911, without which no helicopter can fly normally. It was only later Sikorsky added additional nodes (servo blades) to it and patented it in the USA.
So, it is not yet known who copied more from whom.
This development was completely independent and even so the gearbox design, which was in the Mi-4, has been slightly improved for the Mi-6 and later heavy and superheavy helicopters. Until now, the U.S. can not make a similar gearbox, so they "lose" in the class of heavy and super-heavy helicopters.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---The MI-4 was operational and reliable since 1953. And it was widely used in Soviet Union untill 1988. There are many photos of MI-4 and other helicopters on dyatlovpass.com. See at "Search photos" and "Northern geological expedition".
MI-4 picking up rescuers at Dyatlov Pass:
Guns and helicopters are the symbol of the lifestyle in the Northern Urals.
--- End quote ---
Where did you get the guns from there? Where did you get the guns from there? Even the administrative contingent (police, prison guards, and special enterprises, such as the nuclear industry...). The Northern Urals is a lot of minerals, a difficult climate, resilient people, now and developed infrastructure, as applied to that area and expanse. Guns are exotic there, because no one on earth can fight there yet.
--- Quote from: Charles on October 26, 2022, 01:26:40 PM ---The MI-4 could carry 14 fully equipped troops and it determines the maximum size of the hunt party who went after the hikers: no more than 14 henchmen.
--- End quote ---
Here you are also very inaccurate. The loading of the Mi-4 in the military version was 12 equipped fighters in the low altitude variant (up to 500 m above sea level). Even Slobtsov's group (11 men) was taken to the search site in 2 stages. Six and five men in succession. This was done because their unloading altitudes were close to 1000m, when helicopters' payload capacity drops due to falling air density in the atmosphere.
So I'm surprised that if you don't know much about all the details and specifics of those events and everything that was around them, why do you have to make such "fantasy events" up?
PS. Apparently I will not be able to appear on the forum very quickly, so I will try to answer any questions, but I can't promise that quickly.
Ehtnisba:
--- Quote from: Charles on October 02, 2022, 03:42:10 PM ---ENUMERATIVE INDUCTIONS
Enumerative inductions do not allow to conclude to universal assumptions like with the laws of physics, but in issues that are limited to the particular (singular is about one, particular is about more than one but not all, universal is about all), they can produce satisfying conclusions. For example, from the observation of a single drug deal at the corner of a street, you can't conclude anything. But if you observe three or four drug deals at the same corner of the same street, you can conclude to drug trafficking. And these conclusions will be legit and are used everyday in our societies.
So here are some enumerations which could allow us to drive conclusions...
- Repetitive pattern of 3 collisions of Ivan Prodanov and Alexander Kolevatov in TAVDA, IVDEL and KHOLYAT SYAKHL:
- Summarization of the specific defensive injuries of the 3 hikers who died on the slope:
- Grouping of bone fractures in the area of vital organs:
- Grouping of head wounds in the area of temporalis muscles and temporal bone:
- Parallel positions of 5 corpses + 1 perpendicular:
3 occasions where Prodanov and Kolevatov were at the same place at the same time means they have a common history. 20 metacarpophalangeal joints injuries means there was a fight with opponents. 30 bone fractures in the area of vital organs and 7 head wounds in the temporal area means they were aimed at with the intention to kill. 5 corpses laid in parallels means they have been manipulated. These conclusions don't have any value in the field of the universal and laws of physics, but in the field of the particular and human behavior, which is the reign of contingency, they have a high value, not an absolute value but a high value. A much higher value than for example "they found and entered a snow cave" which is based on nothing, and here absolutely nothing.
--- End quote ---
If I remember correctly temporal lobes are where the possibility for a damage is the greatest as being weaker that the front and top. Usually a side hit makes you stunned or badly concussed. Only Dyatlov and Doroshenko lack wounds on the head. Dyatlov seems like the only one who somehow only has hitted without him being hit severely but is having least clothing. He could have survived as it looks was managed to avoid further injuries, if he had more layers on him...
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