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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by GlennM on April 15, 2024, 09:03:09 PM »Partog, thank you for helping me make my point. Appreciated.
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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by Ziljoe on April 15, 2024, 06:11:43 PM »Not heard the version of Arctic dwarfs yet! thumb1but everything goes ...
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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by Partorg on April 15, 2024, 05:19:35 PM »Quote from: GlennM
First, the actual location of the tent is a mattter of disputeThe location of the tent was established with an accuracy of ±5 meters in 2013 by detecting some small objects that in 1959 could have been lost in the immediate vicinity of tent.
For example, the fastening parts of the “baskets” of ski poles, which at an early stage of the search, rescuers removed from the poles in order to use the latter as avalanche probes. These “baskets”, removed and thrown into the snow next to the tent, which was moved a couple of meters up, are visible in some photos. In addition to them, other small items were found that belonged to the Dyatlovites and apparently fell out of the Tent when it was moved. The 2019 Pokurorsky expedition ignored the exact coordinates of the Tent Place provided to them by the authors of the finds and determined its own, which is located approximately 115 meters north of the true one.
A survey of the slope profile above tent place carried out at 2.5 m intervals in the winter of 2014, shows a snow surface steepness of 16 to 20°. Methodological materials on safety in the mountains, reference and scientific literature on avalanches say that sometimes, under certain weather conditions, snow movement is possible even on slopes 15°
Of course this should not turn anyone from believing in super-secret missiles wandering over the Urals, in KGB death squads, in testing vacuum and neutron bombs, in the invasion of Arctic dwarfs and the outrages of yetis.
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General Discussion / Re: Last two days of the Dyatlov group: 5. Fatal afternoon for Rustem and Zinaida
« Last post by KathleenDSmith1 on April 15, 2024, 05:04:10 PM »Everyone and Teddy:
I last two photo's of Dyatlov's Group, that we are aware is...snowy/windy and all 9 hikers tired and exhausted...not enough wood for the stove to be assemble?... I believe that all 9 hikers were killed/murdered that evening/morning and remember I also believe that all 9 hikers bodies were staged in lined with the tent and the woods, as if all 9 hikers didn't know what they were doing and exposed themselves to hypothermia....All 9 hikers were experienced ... I do believe " Pashin" had two days to staged the scene????
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
I last two photo's of Dyatlov's Group, that we are aware is...snowy/windy and all 9 hikers tired and exhausted...not enough wood for the stove to be assemble?... I believe that all 9 hikers were killed/murdered that evening/morning and remember I also believe that all 9 hikers bodies were staged in lined with the tent and the woods, as if all 9 hikers didn't know what they were doing and exposed themselves to hypothermia....All 9 hikers were experienced ... I do believe " Pashin" had two days to staged the scene????
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
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General Discussion / Re: What Semyon was Holding
« Last post by KathleenDSmith1 on April 15, 2024, 04:50:10 PM »Everyone and Teddy:
Unable to find the photo where the searcher took the notepad out of Semyon's hand (unbelievable) but I do have a photo of the original search and has his hand to his ear????
I found what image/photo in the movie " an unknown compelling force"...
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
Unable to find the photo where the searcher took the notepad out of Semyon's hand (unbelievable) but I do have a photo of the original search and has his hand to his ear????
I found what image/photo in the movie " an unknown compelling force"...
Thanks
Kathleen Dee Smith
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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by Ziljoe on April 15, 2024, 01:18:17 PM »Hi Arjan,
Igor is in a position that other hypothermia victims have been found in.( I think it's called the boxer postion) .
I can't disagree about the two Yuri's possibly being moved shortly after death before freezing. They are in a relaxed position where gravity seems to have played it's part. Possible paradoxical undressing seems to fit but difficult to tell. Oddly enough a balaclava was reported to have been found at the ceder. Strange that it was not used and discarded.
There's also speculation that what is reported as Postmortem lividity is actually frostbite erythema. I think rigor Mortis happens before but we have the complexity of freezing/ frostbite thrown in to the mix along with thawing.
I have read ideas about the flashlights being used as beacons but that has a number of variables too.
I would say that they bodies lay where and how they fell. The two Yuri's may have been moved by others in the group after some sort of survival effort at the ravine/ ceder. Without some hard evidence of outsiders , I can only conclude hypothermia.
The Mansi were in the area within 1 km after the incident according to reports of trails when herding their moose/ deer.
Igor is in a position that other hypothermia victims have been found in.( I think it's called the boxer postion) .
I can't disagree about the two Yuri's possibly being moved shortly after death before freezing. They are in a relaxed position where gravity seems to have played it's part. Possible paradoxical undressing seems to fit but difficult to tell. Oddly enough a balaclava was reported to have been found at the ceder. Strange that it was not used and discarded.
There's also speculation that what is reported as Postmortem lividity is actually frostbite erythema. I think rigor Mortis happens before but we have the complexity of freezing/ frostbite thrown in to the mix along with thawing.
I have read ideas about the flashlights being used as beacons but that has a number of variables too.
I would say that they bodies lay where and how they fell. The two Yuri's may have been moved by others in the group after some sort of survival effort at the ravine/ ceder. Without some hard evidence of outsiders , I can only conclude hypothermia.
The Mansi were in the area within 1 km after the incident according to reports of trails when herding their moose/ deer.
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General Discussion / Re: Wonder If...
« Last post by Arjan on April 15, 2024, 11:57:00 AM »The head wounds mentioned in the post mortem report of Rustem has puzzled my for a long time.
Of course it could by violence by humans in one way or another, but I only investigate the option that:
- no outsiders had entered the area until the two search parties had arrived
- no internal violence had taken place within the Dyatlov group.
When exploring a fall: there had been two situation where this fall may had taken place;
1. During the ascend from the storage to the tent area: the angle of the ascend poses a high risk when a person will start a slide.
Zinaida may have been wounded during this ascend (abrasion similar like being hit with a baton: she may have been stopped by a small tree after a slide)
Rustem may/might have been stuck between two objects (ground/stone and another group member)
2. When trying to recover Lyudmila from the ravine: the surface had been icy, because Zinaida and Rustem had walked on socks.
Rustem may have hit the bottom and Zinaida had fallen on top of him.
Remark: Lyumila had not been placed next to the other three group members in the ravine.
Of course no proof: but it makes sense within the timeline for the last two days that I have drafted.
Of course it could by violence by humans in one way or another, but I only investigate the option that:
- no outsiders had entered the area until the two search parties had arrived
- no internal violence had taken place within the Dyatlov group.
When exploring a fall: there had been two situation where this fall may had taken place;
1. During the ascend from the storage to the tent area: the angle of the ascend poses a high risk when a person will start a slide.
Zinaida may have been wounded during this ascend (abrasion similar like being hit with a baton: she may have been stopped by a small tree after a slide)
Rustem may/might have been stuck between two objects (ground/stone and another group member)
2. When trying to recover Lyudmila from the ravine: the surface had been icy, because Zinaida and Rustem had walked on socks.
Rustem may have hit the bottom and Zinaida had fallen on top of him.
Remark: Lyumila had not been placed next to the other three group members in the ravine.
Of course no proof: but it makes sense within the timeline for the last two days that I have drafted.
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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by Arjan on April 15, 2024, 11:41:34 AM »Dear Ziljoe,
The photo of the posture of Hypothermia - from the website Australiawide - is very probably staged: a living person has person has taken this posture.
I have purposely choosen a staged photo in order to avoid unnecessary distress of group members.
An additional indication that Yuri Dor and Rustem had been moved - after they had lost consciousness for the last time - is provided in the post mortem reports:
- Yuri Dor (found face down): 'Crimson purple post-mortem spots are located on the back of the neck, torso and extremities'
- Rustem (found face down): 'Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the rear surface of the neck, torso and limbs'.
Personally I take into account that Rustem had been turned face down after the process of post mortem lividity had stopped and rigor mortem had started.
Personally I take into account that Igor - after loosing consciousness for the last time - had been carried by two person;
- one person (with both handpalms facing to the front) holding him under his armpits
- the second person holding him at his knees.
You are right victims of hypothermia don't end up in one position:
- some hide curled behind cupboard at relative mild cold conditions
- others are found in a posture like Zinaida.
On the other hand, not many victims had been found neatly next to each other like Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri.
It is hard to estimate the body postures of the four found in the ravine, because personally I take into account that they had already been partly?/fully? defrosted in the ravine at the beginning of May. No information of post mortem lividity is mentioned on the post mortem reports, because it had already dissolved?
THis information is crucial for solving the case, because:
- if group members had left together from the tent area, non of the group members had been able to perform this kind of displacement of other group members
- if two (or more) group members had been displaced the bodies, these two (or more) group members had been far better protected against hypothermia than the others. In the area of the tent, cedar, ravine there had been only one place that had provided sufficient protection. This place is the tent. Personally I take into account that Zinaida and Rustem had survived this night - fatal for the others - in the tent. Other hint: the two flashlights had served a purpose as beacon and means of communication.
The photo of the posture of Hypothermia - from the website Australiawide - is very probably staged: a living person has person has taken this posture.
I have purposely choosen a staged photo in order to avoid unnecessary distress of group members.
An additional indication that Yuri Dor and Rustem had been moved - after they had lost consciousness for the last time - is provided in the post mortem reports:
- Yuri Dor (found face down): 'Crimson purple post-mortem spots are located on the back of the neck, torso and extremities'
- Rustem (found face down): 'Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the rear surface of the neck, torso and limbs'.
Personally I take into account that Rustem had been turned face down after the process of post mortem lividity had stopped and rigor mortem had started.
Personally I take into account that Igor - after loosing consciousness for the last time - had been carried by two person;
- one person (with both handpalms facing to the front) holding him under his armpits
- the second person holding him at his knees.
You are right victims of hypothermia don't end up in one position:
- some hide curled behind cupboard at relative mild cold conditions
- others are found in a posture like Zinaida.
On the other hand, not many victims had been found neatly next to each other like Yuri Dor and Yuri Kri.
It is hard to estimate the body postures of the four found in the ravine, because personally I take into account that they had already been partly?/fully? defrosted in the ravine at the beginning of May. No information of post mortem lividity is mentioned on the post mortem reports, because it had already dissolved?
THis information is crucial for solving the case, because:
- if group members had left together from the tent area, non of the group members had been able to perform this kind of displacement of other group members
- if two (or more) group members had been displaced the bodies, these two (or more) group members had been far better protected against hypothermia than the others. In the area of the tent, cedar, ravine there had been only one place that had provided sufficient protection. This place is the tent. Personally I take into account that Zinaida and Rustem had survived this night - fatal for the others - in the tent. Other hint: the two flashlights had served a purpose as beacon and means of communication.
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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by GlennM on April 14, 2024, 09:06:49 PM »We are reminded of two thiings. First, the actual location of the tent is a mattter of dispute. Secondly, it did happen . An avalanche did not happen. A slab slip did. The only debate is whether the hikers precipitated the event by prepping their tent site. This is significannt because the surviving relatives do not wish to accept that any ineptitude on the part of the expedition caused their demise. It is also clear that even in the aftermath, in then true Soviet fashion, several people lost their positions as scapegoats. Monetary restitution did not come, and in all probability, never will. The hikers were all given a decent burial.
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General Discussion / Re: AVANLANCHE THEORY
« Last post by WinterLeia on April 14, 2024, 04:06:59 PM »The slope, according to G & P, is 28 degrees. That is still not steep enough. Just because it can happen on a 28 degree slope, doesn’t debunk the fact that it’s very rare for avalanches to occur on slopes with a less than a 30 degree angle. Plus, I do not agree with their calculation. All the pictures that they show as proof that avalanches and slab slides do happen are on much steeper slopes. Don’t believe me? Let’s go straight to the horse’s mouth.
From the follow up report, in reference to the avalanche and the snow slab:
…”the slab was softer, the slope was steeper, it was not undercut from below and the trigger was probably different, too.”
That means the slope where the tent was set up was less than 28 degrees. And considering Dr. Borzenkov’s much more professional analysis, in which he uses tools and actually measures the slope where the tent was set up instead of presenting some blurry photos of other places where avalanches do occur that have steeper slopes, I find him far more credible and will go with his calculations of the slope being no more than 20 degrees.
In actual fact, though, there is an easy way to solve this. G & P just needs to go out and find a place where an an avalanche occurs and is not steeper than the slope upon which the tent was set up. They don’t do this because there probably is no such place. Their follow-up report can be summed up in two words: confirmation bias.
From the follow up report, in reference to the avalanche and the snow slab:
…”the slab was softer, the slope was steeper, it was not undercut from below and the trigger was probably different, too.”
That means the slope where the tent was set up was less than 28 degrees. And considering Dr. Borzenkov’s much more professional analysis, in which he uses tools and actually measures the slope where the tent was set up instead of presenting some blurry photos of other places where avalanches do occur that have steeper slopes, I find him far more credible and will go with his calculations of the slope being no more than 20 degrees.
In actual fact, though, there is an easy way to solve this. G & P just needs to go out and find a place where an an avalanche occurs and is not steeper than the slope upon which the tent was set up. They don’t do this because there probably is no such place. Their follow-up report can be summed up in two words: confirmation bias.