March 28, 2024, 05:16:43 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Why The Dyatlovites May Have Died Due to Exposure to BZ/Substance 78  (Read 6216 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

July 29, 2022, 08:17:34 AM
Read 6216 times
Offline

WarpedWing


Why The Dyatlovites May Have Died Due to Exposure to BZ/Substance 78

I would like to put forward the hypothesis that the Dyatlovites perished during a Soviet military chemical weapons experiment due to exposure to 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate, known to the US government as Agent BZ and the Soviet government as Substance 78.


NOTE: A formatted PDF of this presentation with more photos can be found here.

Background: Chemical Weapons Testing in the 1950s

It is important to first establish the climate of chemical weapons development during the 1950s Cold War period. The United States’ once-top secret chemical weapons project, MKULTRA, was underway by 1953. The MKULTRA program took a keen interest in drugs like LSD to see if a militarized version could be useful. At first, LSD (and other chemicals) were tested as a so-called “truth serum” that would make lying under interrogation difficult or impossible. It was quickly discovered that LSD often disrupted the target’s brain too much, and sensible interrogation became impossible.

It was then theorized that this disruptive effect could be used against military operatives as well as foreign governments and their officials, essentially shutting down the enemy from the inside. According to Wikipedia: “Sidney Gottlieb, the chemist who directed MKUltra, had other ideas: he thought [LSD] could be used in covert operations. Since its effects were temporary, he believed it could be given to high-ranking officials and in this way affect the course of important meetings, speeches, etc. Since he realized there was a difference in testing the drug in a laboratory and using it in clandestine operations, he initiated a series of experiments where LSD was given to people in "normal" settings without warning.”

This illustrates the ethical environment—or lack thereof—in the chemical weapons testing protocols in the 1950s. The US government was willing to test chemical weapons on unsuspecting people, causing several known deaths from various chemicals over the years (the operation ended in 1973).

But what about Soviet chemical weapons testing?

The Russian chemical weapons program started back in the 1920s, and by the 1950s was in overdrive. According to nti.org, “U.S. Army Major General Marshall Stubbs estimated that in 1959 the Soviet Union possessed modern and efficient chemical weapons, sufficient protective chemical equipment for large-scale warfare, and plentiful decontamination equipment. Soviet Marshall Vasily Sokolovsky’s 1962 Military Strategy guide, in which he “recommended [chemical weapons integration] frequently within the framework of various tactical operations,” reflected Stubbs’ assessment. Sokolovsky believed chemical weapons could inflict significant casualties, hamper troop movements, and impede enemy activities if employed in a large surprise attack. Such a scenario became more conceivable in 1959, when the Soviet Union began production of sarin on an industrial scale.”

“Congressional overseers, terrified of Soviet military superiority, were ready to lend support. The Red Army had an extensive chemical-warfare program, and evidence suggested that it had an interest in “psychic poisons,” used to trigger mental illness” (The New Yorker).

I’m sure the fact that both the US and the USSR were engaged in an escalating chemical and nuclear arms race in 1959 is a surprise to few reading this. But the Dyatlov Pass Incident doesn’t involve LSD or Sarin or possibly any chemical you’ve likely heard about.

Substance 78

In 1951, the Swiss pharmaceutical company Hoffman-LaRoche, developed the chemical  3-Quinuclidinyl benzilate while investigating antispasmodic agents. It wasn’t a success for that task, but, according to Wikipedia, “By 1959, the United States Army showed significant interest in deploying [3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate] as a chemical warfare agent. It was originally designated "TK", but when it was standardized by the Army in 1961, it received the NATO code name "BZ" . . . The agent commonly became known as "Buzz" because of this abbreviation and the effects it had on the mental state of the human volunteers intoxicated with it in research studies . . . work proceeded [on BZ) in 1964 when a general envisioned a scheme to incapacitate an entire trawler with aerosolized BZ; this effort was dubbed Project DORK. BZ was ultimately weaponized for delivery in the M44 generator cluster and the M43 cluster bomb . . .”

In the Soviet Union, it was known as Substance 78. Both the US and the USSR were trying to find a military use for it in the mid 1950s. It is possible that the Soviets began experimentation on BZ/Substance 78 even before the US did.

Effects of BZ: Case Reports (From The New Yorker)

According to The New Yorker’s Raffi Khatchadourian from interviews with MKULTRA scientists:

 “Infinitesimal amounts could send people into total mental disorder. BZ is an anticholinergic, similar to atropine or scopolamine, which are used in medicine today. At high doses, such drugs trigger delirium—a dreamlike insanity usually forgotten after it subsides. Sim, one of the first doctors to try BZ, later proclaimed that it “zonked” him for three days. ‘I kept falling down,’ he said. ‘The people at the lab assigned someone to follow me around with a mattress.’”

“Exposed soldiers exhibited bizarre symptoms: rapid mumbling, or picking obsessively at bedclothes and other objects, real or imaginary. ‘Subjects sometimes display something approaching wit, not in the form of word-play, but as a kind of sarcasm or unexpected frankness,’ [the chief psychiatrist Ketchum] wrote in a report for Sim. The drug’s effect lasted for days. At its peak, volunteers were totally cut off in their own minds, jolting from one fragmented existence to the next. They saw visions: Lilliputian baseball players competing on a tabletop diamond; animals or people or objects that materialized and vanished. ‘I had a great urge to smoke and, when I thought about it, a lit cigarette appeared in my hand,’ a volunteer given a drug similar to BZ recalled shortly after the experiment. ‘I could actually smoke the cigarette.’”

“Soldiers on BZ could remember only fragments of the experience afterward. As the drug wore off, and the subjects had trouble discerning what was real, many experienced anxiety, aggression, even terror. Ketchum built padded cells to prevent injuries, but at times the subjects couldn’t be contained. One escaped, running from imagined murderers. Another, on a drug similar to BZ, saw ‘bugs, worms, one snake, a monkey and numerous rats,’ and thought his skin was covered in blood.”

Army intelligence officer Ronald “Zadrozny’s drug-induced madness lasted for thirty-six hours. He saluted imaginary officers, at one point believing that a drape partitioning the toilet was a group of men. He became panicky, and stayed up nights, pacing and mumbling, trying to escape, either by the door or through a medicine cabinet. At one point, as Zadrozny began to improve, he sat in front of the switchboard, pencil in one hand, receiver in the other, ready for a communiqué.

‘You can’t hear anything unless you have the telephone up to your ear,’ another soldier explained.

‘It wasn’t working with electrodes,’ Zadrozny mumbled.”

The results of BZ weren’t always just psychological, even in the lab. One soldier “went into critical condition after breathing in BZ in a wind tunnel; his temperature spiked to 103.6°, and his head started shaking spastically. He was sponged with ice and alcohol, and given antidotes. After six days, doctors released him, noting that he ‘appeared quite normal.’”

The Soviets and BZ/Substance 78

The following quote from the same The New Yorker article illustrates that the Soviets were interested in BZ and were testing it to keep up with the US:

“The Soviets were not ignorant of BZ, after all. Vil Mirzayanov, a chemist who conducted secret weapons research for the Soviet Union, told me that Moscow never had more than a halfhearted interest in LSD, and that its interest in BZ was strictly to keep up with Ketchum’s program. ‘We knew the West had developed this weapon, and we were trying to copy it,’ he said. Soviet scientists, who called the formula Substance 78, conducted their own clinical trials with it and manufactured tons of the drug at a plant in Volsk. ‘But, for the military, it was absolutely useless,’ he told me. ‘Soldiers began to act like in a dream. They were not thinking; they don’t need weapons—very nice, very good. The main problem was, How do you use it? For military people it was fantasy.’’

Effects: Clinical Signs for Anticholinergics

What are the effects of BZSubstance 78?

BZ is what is known as an anticholinergic chemical. It acts much like common poisonous anticholinergic plants like datura, henbane, deadly nightshade, and others.

Common side effects:

  • dilated pupils (mydriasis)
  • delirium/hallucinations/delusions
  • increased body temperature (hyperpyrexia)
  • lack of muscle control/coordination (ataxia)
  • farsightedness (difficulty seeing)
  • reduction in glandular secretions (xerostomia(dry mouth))
  • reddened skin
  • bronchodilation
  • afraid of light (photophobia)
  • urinary retention (much like hypothermia)
  • agitation
  • decreased intestinal transit (food slows in GI tract)

A useful medical trauma mnemonic for anticholinergic plant poisoning in the emergency room:

  • Blind as a bat (ciliary muscle paralysis)
  • Dry as a bone (anhidrosis [no sweating])
  • Red as a beet (peripheral vasodilation)
  • Fast as a fiddle (tachycardia [fast heartbeat])
  • Hot as Hades (hyperthermia [overheated])
  • Mad as a hatter (delirium, coma)
What is interesting about BZ/Substance 78 in comparison to, say, amanita muscaria or LSD ingestion, is that the effects are very similar amongst all who take it. LSD can be a very subjective experience, and 9 people under the influence of LSD would probably have 9 very different experiences. BZ, however, acts on a different, “deeper” part of the brain using different chemical pathways, which results in similar presentations between people. That is, all 9 hikers would probably get hot, dry, have dilated pupils, hallucinations, etc.

Many of the Dyatlovites had dilated pupils and urinary retention when examined at autopsy.

I put forward that:

  • The increased body temperature along with increasing psychosis is an explanation for leaving the safety of the tent without proper clothing and not prioritizing body warmth.
  • The progressive lack of muscle control and mental abilities made it impossible to run down the hill, even if desired. As muscle control continued to deteriorate, the Dyatlovites became unable to care for themselves, which resulted in the astounding death of 9 strong, healthy hikers.
  • A reduction in saliva may have driven some of the Dyatlovites to seek the stream, resulting in crushing death under a heavy pile of snow. (Any Dyatlovite who decided to try to eat snow to counteract their thirst would likely meet a swift end due to hypothermia.)
  • The tent may have been cut first due to venting aerosol/smoke or to look at the “attackers” and later due to increasing hallucinations/delusions.
  • Most non-fatal injuries that look like “someone who just keeps falling down” is exactly that.
Why and How?
First, why?

This is the difficult question of this hypothesis. We know that governments were testing such chemicals around 1959 to ascertain their effectiveness on the battlefield. However, the Dyatlovites are not a military group, even if some members are ex-military. Would the Russian government really be willing to dose nine unsuspecting civilians with a fairly untested psychogenic chemical, or was this a mistake? I cannot say. But this theory can be evaluated with both possibilities. 

Maybe it was a mistake?

The Dyatlovites were not supposed to be on the slope of Kholat Syakhl. Their route should have taken them closer to the treeline, but they decided to do a mountainside bivouac training exercise instead. Perhaps there was a planned military exercise to test Substance 78 on a tent of willing soldiers on another nearby mountain slope. But when the offensive team saw the large Dyatlovite tent on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, confirmation bias made them believe they had found their target. After dosing the Dyatlovites with BZ, they find to their horror the next morning all hikers dead.

Perhaps it was intentional?

Perhaps the Soviet military had plans to test Substance 78 on the Dyatlovites. It’s hard to imagine the hikers consenting to have military weapons tested on them—the military has soldiers for that type of duty. But perhaps one of the Dyatlovites was working with the military. This person convinced the group to change their campsite from somewhere along the planned direct route to the exposed, cold slope of Kholat Syakhl. This open position made them an easy target. It’s also easy to watch the hikers’ movements from a clandestine location, possibly above the Dyaltovites’ campsite, with binoculars and a flare gun. The flares terrified the Dyatlovites.

Next, how?

The Dyatlovites were exposed on the ridge of Kholat Syakhl: a dark blob of tent amongst stark white snow. But how to dose the hikers with BZ?

There are many ways to administer BZ/Substance 78: it can be made into a solution or dispersed as a gas, including using explosives or pyrotechnics as the spreading device. It can be drunk in a drink or eaten in food.

The Russian website mypochki-ru.turbopages.org has detailed information on the administration of BZ/Substance 78. This excerpt is written about US weapons (from a Russian perspective), but a brief study of 1950s Soviet weapons indicates that the Soviets had their own version of most of not all the US’s means of chemical weapons dispersion. They write (translated from Russian):

“The US Army is armed with cluster aerial bombs and cluster (container) installations in BZ equipment, chemical "smoking" checkers. All ammunition is classified as Group A. They are encoded with two red rings and marked with the inscription "BZ GAS". Cluster aerial bombs are opened at a certain height from the earth's surface and disperse small-sized elements (bombs) equipped with BZ-based pyrotechnic mixtures. As a result of thermal sublimation, an aerosol cloud BZ is formed, which covers the target. One cluster bomb creates an impact zone with ICτ 50on an area of ​​approximately 1.2 ha. Cassette installations dropped from aircraft contain several thermal aerosol generators, also equipped with pyrotechnic mixtures. The generators themselves can also be used by the ground forces. They contain 6 kg of BZ. The ground forces are also armed with chemical bombs that convert BZ into an aerosol by thermal sublimation. Each checker contains 5 kg of BZ and burns for 80 s. The most dangerous use of BZ is at night, in foggy conditions, in clouds of dust or smoke.”


“Signs of [BZ] damage are manifested in dilated pupils, dry mouth, increased heart rate, dizziness, muscle weakness. After 30-60 minutes, there is a weakening of attention and memory, a decrease in reactions to external stimuli. The affected person loses orientation, phenomena of psychomotor agitation occur, periodically replaced by hallucinations. Contact with the outside world is lost, and the affected person is unable to distinguish reality from the illusory representations occurring in his mind. Negativism develops: the affected person constantly does the opposite of what is offered to him. He actively resists any impulse and has a negative attitude towards everything. During this period, unexpected outbursts of anger are not uncommon. The consequence of impaired consciousness is insanity with periods of partial or complete loss of memory.”

Essentially, there are countless ways that the Dyatlovite group could have been dosed with BZ/Substance 78. A BZ generator or a well-placed pyrotechnics bomb (it doesn’t explode, so no blast crater) up the hillside from the tent should have inundated the tent with noxious fumes, which would have been quite a shock. The flow of chemicals would have to be directly downhill if not directly into the tent structure via a canister. Some methods of administration could be eliminated if we knew the weather conditions exactly.

Frame 34

I would like to suggest that Krivonischenko’s mysterious frame 34 is either a military flare to light up the target (the tent) or it is a pyrotehnic BZ bomb dispersing the chemical as the fine mist seen in the photo below. I have been unable to find any photos or videos of any of these military pyrotechnics chemical bombs, so more research must be done.


The sleuth “galfind” on the website taina.li did a fantastic job trying to scientifically recreate frame 34 using the same lens as the Dyatlovites had in their camera. To obtain the vignetting seen in frame 34, the photo must have been taken with the lens tube retracted, which makes the camera unable to properly focus, hence the out of focus shot. The sleuths were able to recreate the center octagonal shape by letting light hit the side of the lens at an angle (lens flare). They had more difficulty recreating the multiple spots of light. The last attempt shown on the forum post was in 2021, and illuminated bits of foil were used to represent the points of light in frame 34. Here’s what they ended up with:



Not bad at all. The only thing missing, as others on that thread pointed out, is the murky gray fog. We might have an answer as to what caused that now if it’s not simply a trick of the camera or film.

Krivonischenko’s camera was found inside the tent, and one can deduce from the case files that it was attached to a tripod. It had a broken light filter too. My theory is that one of the Dyatlovites stuck the camera out the side of (or a hole in) the tent with the timer on and took frame 34 in an attempt to capture what seemed to be an attack on the tent, possibly from above the tent’s elevation. I think that this pyrotechnic device, whatever it may be, wasn’t the first one the Dyatlovites saw that night: something must have first piqued their interest for them to have mounted a camera on a tripod at night. Something at night must be bright to be filmed, and an object that makes a lens flare must be very bright, indeed. The manual camera must be set up to take such a shot (aperture, shutter speed). Also remember, Zolotaryov was found with his camera around his neck. Something bright and strange at night was around the tent, and it was terrifying to the hikers.

Singe marks have been reported on the tops of trees in the forest. There appeared to be no pattern, i.e., no epicenter. The randomness could be explained by the randomness of pyrotechnics blowing downwind.

Cutting the Tent: An Aside

One thing that did strike me as strange was the following image from the forensic investigation of the tent fabric:


Forensic Tent Investigation, 1959

Look at the bottom photo, number 4. Notice the delicate slice that cuts diagonally right along the seam line. It is not impossible that someone randomly makes such a cut trying to, say, escape the tent under the snow, but it seems somewhat unlikely. It is very difficult to cut fabric, or even paper, when it is not pulled taut. If a fabric bunches up or becomes loose, making precise cuts becomes next to impossible. Note that the tent on the slope was not even put up with rope but just a few tent poles! The fabric would tend to bunch and tear if one continues to insist on putting pressure on loose fabric while cutting it with a knife.

Likewise, the arced cut does not look random. It is clean, precise, and done delicately. It seems to me to be a slowly done cut rather than a quick ripping escape. Some cuts on the tent do seem to be ripped and rushed, but the photos of the tent are lacking, apart from a few up-close photos from the forensic examination.

The Panic

It’s possible that cuts to the tent were made to vent the choking aerosol. It’s also possible some were made to try to see the attackers. It’s also possible that at least one of the Dyatlovites started cutting the tent out of BZ-induced madness.

Eventually, the BZ started to take hold, and the Dyatlovites panic. They don’t feel right at all, but they don’t know why. The Dyatlovites’ knowledge of what was happening to them might depend on whether frame 34 shows a pyrotechnical BZ bomb or a cluster illumination flare. Something noticeable must have happened prior to frame 34 to have had the camera ready for a transient event. I might make the suggestion that since frame 34 was so poorly captured (lens tube pushed in), the photographer might have been under the influence of BZ at the time.

How the Dyatlovites Felt

According to psychology.fandom.com, here’s how the Dyatlovites might have felt:

“The patient is often disoriented to time and place. Disturbances in judgment and insight appear. The patient may abandon socially imposed restraints and resort to vulgar and inappropriate behavior. Perceptual clues may no longer be readily interpretable, and the patient is easily distracted and may have memory loss, most notably short-term memory. In the face of these deficits, the patient still tries to make sense of his environment and will not hesitate to make up answers on the spot to questions that confuse him. Speech becomes slurred and often senseless, and loss of inflection produces a flat, monotonous voice. References become concrete and semiautomatic with colloquialisms, clichés, profanity, and perseveration. Handwriting also deteriorates. Semiautomatic behavior may also include disrobing (perhaps partly because of increased body temperature), mumbling, and phantom behaviors such as constant picking, plucking, or grasping motions (‘woolgathering’ or carphology).”

“Hallucinations resulting from anticholinergics such as BZ tend to be realistic, distinct, easily identifiable (often commonly encountered objects or persons), panoramic, and difficult to distinguish from reality. They also have the tendency to decrease in size during the course of the intoxication. This is in contrast to the typically vague, ineffable, and transcendent-appearing hallucinations induced by psychedelics such as LSD.

Another prominent CNS finding in BZ poisoning is behavioral lability, with patients swinging back and forth between quiet confusion and self-absorption in hallucinations, to frank combativeness. Moreover, as other symptoms begin to resolve, intermittent paranoia may be seen. Automatic behaviors common during resolution include the crawling or climbing motions called ‘progresso obstinato’ in old descriptions of dementia.

BZ produces effects not just in individuals, but also in groups. Sharing of illusions and hallucinations (folie à deux, folie en famille, and "mass hysteria") is exemplified by two BZ-intoxicated individuals who would take turns smoking an imaginary cigarette clearly visible to both of them but to no one else.[15] [Clarification] When one observed subject mumbled, ‘Gotta cigarette?’ His delirious companion held out an invisible pack, he followed with, ‘S'okay, don't wanna take your last one.’ In another test it was reported two victims of BZ played tennis with imaginary rackets.”

The Four Stages of BZ Poisoning:

  • Onset or induction (zero to four hours after exposure), characterized by parasympathetic blockade and mild CNS effects.
  • Second phase (4 to 20 hours after exposure), characterized by stupor with ataxia and hyperthermia.
  • Third phase (20 to 96 hours after exposure), in which full-blown delirium is seen but often fluctuates from moment to moment.
  • Fourth phase, or resolution, characterized by paranoia, deep sleep, reawakening, crawling or climbing automatisms, and eventual reorientation.
Leaving the Tent

At some point, probably between stages one and two, the Dyatlovites started to get very warm, stiflingly so. Their coordination was faltering along with their ability to reason, and they were having difficulty seeing.

The reason for descending from the slope is unknown, but they were not of totally sound mind when the decision was made. Perhaps they were trying to go back to the storage tent but got confused as to the direction. Perhaps they were terrorized by the experimenters as part of the experiment. Ignorant of the cold due to hyperthermia, the Dyatlovites descended towards the treeline. Running or grabbing their skis would have been beyond their physical and mental ability at this point.

The Hikers’ Demise

It’s difficult if not impossible to fathom all the carnage that followed. I hesitate to even come up with theories on how and why the hikers died. I do think that most if not all deaths can be explained by extreme physical and mental distress and inability to make good decisions.

Two hikers died by a cedar close to a campfire (is there a photo of the campfire?) with burned clothes and skin. As their minds faltered, maybe they (or their fellow hikers) put their numb, frostbitten appendages too close to the fire and burned them. These two (Krivonischenko and Doroshenko) might have been affected the most by the BZ and were the first to be incapacitated. Incapacitation and exposure in the Urals in winter leads to death quickly. Marks and injuries on the bodies point towards uncoordinated falls and thrashing on the ground (or a fall from a tree).

Many if not all hikers were together by the cedar at some point because some of the dead hikers’ clothes ended up on other hikers and at least one body was moved. Perhaps some of the more cogent hikers saw the frostbitten appendages of their dead comrades and realized that, even though they weren't feeling cold (some still had unbuttoned jackets when they died), their fingers and toes would freeze stiff and not work without extra layers.

The others may have been less affected by the BZ, or maybe the gap of time between Stage 1 effects and complete incapacitation was large enough that they were able to make an attempt at shelter in The Den. The hikers must have been trying so hard to maintain sanity and stay alive in a world that they suddenly didn’t understand. Their thirst had them seeking fresh, running water, and maybe that’s why they ended up in the stream. You can’t eat snow for thirst, and I have not read any reports that they had a vessel for melting snow. Out of thirst of to hide from real or imagined attackers, the Ravine Four (Dubinina, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle) tunneled under the snow, perhaps in natural but very small “cave” between a layer of snow above the streambed and the thick snow bank above.

No one of sound mind would do this when better options were available, but hikers on BZ might. Digging around inside this ice/snow cave caused it to collapse, crushing and trapping the four hikers.

The remaining three (Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, Slobodin) died on the slope of the mountain in an apparent attempt to return to the tent. Perhaps they felt they had nothing to lose by climbing toward the attackers, or maybe the flares had stopped bombarding them and they felt they could return. Maybe their stupor was lifting. If we are to believe that the bodies lie where they died, the hikers’ orientation toward the tent seems to imply some sort of group coordination even at this late stage.

Conclusion

What happened to the Dyatlovites after they were poisoned by BZ and left their tent might be impossible to fully pin down. The gradual incapacitation due to physical and mental breakdown in an unforgiving environment was more than the strongest Dyatlovite could handle. They never had a chance.

I very much think that if there’s any weight to this hypothesis, the death of the Dyatlov nine was not the goal of the experiment. The whole experiment was grossly mismanaged, however, and it had to be covered up. The Dyatlov Pass Incident was a colossal governmental mistake and one that the Russian government has kept well under wraps for many decades.

The investigation might have discovered the cause back in 1959 when samples from the first five corpses were sent out for forensic chemical analysis. The case files show the receipt of the samples on March 5, 1959 at the Regional Forensic Laboratory. However, five days later on March 10, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) concluded that the cause of death of the Dyatlovites was death by hurricane, asserted blame for the incident as widely as they could, and closed the investigation. Did the forensic analysis show something the CPSU didn’t want the world to see?



References

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
https://mypochki-ru.turbopages.org/mypochki.ru/s/bi-zet-otravljajushhee-veshhestvo/
https://nuke.fas.org/guide/russia/cbw/jptac008_l94001.htm
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/17/operation-delirium
https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/russia-chemical/
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1258.540
https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate#Military_use
https://www.chemeurope.com/en/encyclopedia/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate.html
https://dyatlovpass.com/cpsu-special-reports-47


 
The following users thanked this post: Manti

July 29, 2022, 10:11:49 AM
Reply #1
Offline

Игорь Б.


Неужели там, где вы живёте нет скунсов?
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

July 29, 2022, 10:18:03 AM
Reply #2
Offline

WarpedWing


I don't see them here in New York City, but outside the city they are prevalent. They've never bothered me camping, but raccoons have! I cannot imagine a skunk that could force me down a mountain slope in winter at night with not enough clothes. That would be total suicide and unthinkable for experienced hikers. I'd at least hold my nose while I fished around for boots inside the tent.
 

July 29, 2022, 10:54:47 AM
Reply #3
Offline

Игорь Б.


I'd at least hold my nose while I fished around for boots inside the tent.
А одежду и ботинки вы бы потом носили тоже зажав нос?
P.S. Вы знаете, что дятловцы выбросили куртки, уже вынесенные из палатки?
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

July 29, 2022, 11:07:16 AM
Reply #4
Offline

WarpedWing


I would definitely wear boots, even if covered in skunk spray. I don’t think boots would be a problem, smell-wise, at the very least.

Throwing away the jackets fits my theory. Did you even read it, or did you come to spam your theory over top of mine?
 

July 29, 2022, 11:11:23 AM
Reply #5
Offline

Игорь Б.


Я не читаю версии, говорящие о внешнем химическом воздействии, т.к. знаю, что дятловцы не бежали, а уходили от палатки очень медленным и осторожным шагом. Это доказано.
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

July 29, 2022, 11:16:59 AM
Reply #6
Offline

WarpedWing


That is explained in my hypothesis too. They didn’t run because they couldn’t run.

 If you won’t discuss my hypothesis on it’s one and only post, I won’t engage further with you on this thread. I appreciate all the work you’ve put into this case, and I’ve read a lot of the great insight you’ve added on this forum. Since I respect you, I will not be goaded into an argument online with you. I hope, instead, to work along side you. Please respect that. Thank you.
 

July 29, 2022, 04:21:22 PM
Reply #7
Online

Ziljoe


Always engage, every idea , theory , hypothesis may bring something.

I do support Igor b because It is logical and ties up many of the statements and clinical/ medical observations.

As I understand it and try to , the Wolverine spray would have caused serious respiratory , irritation and concern. Anything that was covered with it would only enhance the symptoms. This is a reason to leaving clothes etc.

However a good post warpedwing. Please don't be defensive and engage with with those that question.



 

July 29, 2022, 04:44:20 PM
Reply #8
Offline

WarpedWing


Always engage, every idea , theory , hypothesis may bring something.

I do support Igor b because It is logical and ties up many of the statements and clinical/ medical observations.

As I understand it and try to , the Wolverine spray would have caused serious respiratory , irritation and concern. Anything that was covered with it would only enhance the symptoms. This is a reason to leaving clothes etc.

However a good post warpedwing. Please don't be defensive and engage with with those that question.

I do not discount any theory, Ziljoe. I have been poring over this forum and others and trying to read all that I can. Igor said he would not read my theory and instead only promoted his. This I take offense to as it is against the spirit of seeking the truth. So, I think your words about not being defensive should be directed at him, not me.

I have read his theory and I like it very much and do not discount it. I do question it, however. Everything I write should likewise be questioned. I would love for everything in my theory to be disproved wrong in order to move on to other better theories, but if someone won't bother to read it and is curt with me, then we're at an impasse.
 

July 29, 2022, 04:58:37 PM
Reply #9
Online

Ziljoe


Thanks warpedwing.

All your points are valid and your original post puts forward a plausible explanation.
 
The following users thanked this post: WarpedWing

July 29, 2022, 05:30:48 PM
Reply #10
Offline

WarpedWing


Thanks warpedwing.

All your points are valid and your original post puts forward a plausible explanation.

Cheers, Ziljoe. Any input or differing ideas are welcome! I’m new to this case, so I’m probably missing a lot of info. Thank you.
 

July 29, 2022, 07:57:12 PM
Reply #11
Offline

GlennM


The thesis put forward is masterful and complete. I commend you. I have trouble believing that anyone would be testing any such chemical,weapon on some random group of people in the middle of nowhere in lousy weather and in the dead of night and expect to get away with it. Still, if one admits to all the necessary pre conditions, then this idea is as sound as any other.
 

July 29, 2022, 08:56:34 PM
Reply #12
Offline

WarpedWing


Thanks, GlennM!

I agree that the preconditions are tough to accept. I need to contact some real-deal military historians to find out what technology the Soviets really had at that time for chemical weapons dispersion. I know they had quite a few options, but I need better sources that Wikipedia and random websites to make this hypothesis legit.

It’s also possible that someone could have poisoned a common item they all ate/drank with an anticholinergic substance of some kind. It could even be something from a mountain village, like deadly nightshade or henbane. What happened to the toxicology reports?
 

July 29, 2022, 10:52:55 PM
Reply #13
Offline

Игорь Б.


This open position made them an easy target. It’s also easy to watch the hikers’ movements from a clandestine location, possibly above the Dyaltovites’ campsite, with binoculars and a flare gun.
Посмотрите последние фотографии группы Дятлова при восхождении и установки палатки. Видимость из-за метели составляет не более 30 метров. Причина метели - приближение холодного атмосферного фронта, что доказано метеосводкой. Перед атмосферным фронтом всегда происходит усиление ветра и осадков. Это закон природы.

Вы видимо не представляете что такое метель на перевале Дятлова (видимость около 100 - 150 метров):
https://youtu.be/0feP5n3wa2k?t=683
(смысл комментариев - заблудиться в такую метель без GPS проще простого)

Никто не смог бы найти дятловцев в такую метель, даже если бы очень захотел.
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

July 30, 2022, 07:28:27 AM
Reply #14
Offline

WarpedWing


Visibility due to the blizzard is no more than 30 meters. The reason for the blizzard is the approach of a cold atmospheric front, which is proved by the weather report.

Hi Igor,

That's a very good point, although attackers could follow the Dyatlovites' ski tracks to their final destination.

I did try to figure out what the weather was like during that evening, night, and morning, but all I could find was this link:
https://dyatlovpass.com/investigation-materials-2

And that link seems to imply that the weather might not have been as bad as one might assume. But that report is based on averages, and I do know from hiking in the mountains that weather can turn bad very, very quickly, even if not forecast. Weather can also improve very quickly too. I have no doubts that the slope was windy, and it was certainly absolutely frigid, which makes leaving the tent without clothing and hiking in hypothermic conditions to be an absolute suicide mission. It's hard to believe not one of the nine didn't seem to understand that and bring even basic supplies down the hill. Their Jan 31 camp and storage was almost as close as where they ended up.

Since they took photos of their tent setup, they must have been somewhat proud of what they were doing and wanted to show others later how they bivouacked on a snowy mountainside. Or maybe they were asked to take a photo as proof by someone who requested they stay on KH or otherwise stay in such conditions.

But I agree with you that the weather was in no ways good that night, and it would have made any clandestine operations difficult if not impossible during a snow squall.
 

July 30, 2022, 09:00:41 AM
Reply #15
Offline

Игорь Б.


I have no doubts that the slope was windy, and it was certainly absolutely frigid, which makes leaving the tent without clothing and hiking in hypothermic conditions to be an absolute suicide mission.
Всё наоборот. Происшествие случилось днём с 13 до 15 часов, когда ещё было тепло (около 0°C). Это доказано обледенением следов-столбиков. При отрицательных температурах обледенение следов не происходит и они разрушаются за 1-2 дня.

Перед приходом холодного атмосферного фронта всегда происходит потепление. Это закон природы. В этом и заключается трагическое стечение обстоятельств.
Дятловцы посчитали что им без труда удастся провести ночь у костра в лесу даже раздетыми. Они не знали, что вот-вот произойдёт сильное и резкое похолодание, которое настигло их в лесу.

Всё вышесказанное обосновано и доказано документально и экспериментально.   
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

July 30, 2022, 09:43:38 AM
Reply #16
Offline

WarpedWing


The Dyatlovites thought that they could easily spend the night by the fire in the forest, even undressed. They did not know that a strong and sharp cold snap was about to happen, which overtook them in the forest.

Hi Igor,

I do understand that a warm front will pass before a cold front. I am a commercial pilot and certified flight instructor, and I am qualified to teach aviation meteorology to student pilots. I have a feeling that the Dyatlovites were also trained, or at least well-versed, in meteorology as it applies to the safety of a backpacking trip.

It's hard for me to imagine that all nine Dyatlovites thought it safe and preferable to leave the tent and walk almost barefoot in snow for a mile. A warm front in the Urals is still bloody cold without appropriate winter attire. Regardless of ambient temperature or future cold fronts, wet feet in snow can kill you quickly. If it gets warm by me in winter but there is snow on the ground, my fingers will still become numb quickly after firing off a few snowballs at friends! I can't imagine what it would feel like to keep such an appendage in snow for hours. I don't think the Dyatlovites thought they could easily spend a night without clothes, water, food, or proper shelter at night in the mountains. I cannot fathom them not taking more supplies with them. They must have left what they thought was certain death and moved towards simply probably death.

Also, I read that they set the tent up around 5pm? You think it was earlier?
 

July 30, 2022, 10:11:05 AM
Reply #17
Offline

Игорь Б.


I have a feeling that the Dyatlovites were also trained, or at least well-versed, in meteorology as it applies to the safety of a backpacking trip.
В 1959 году в СССР интернета не было. Кто обучал метеорологии студентов политехнического института?

It's hard for me to imagine that all nine Dyatlovites thought it safe and preferable to leave the tent and walk almost barefoot in snow for a mile.
В 2014 году Александр Алексеенков провёл эксперимент - спустился от места палатки в лес в одежде дятловцев - в носках и свитере и поднялся обратно. Причём это было в мороз, а не в теплую погоду:


(партнёр спрашивает:
- Какие ощущения с ногами?
- Никаких. Я больше о камере беспокоюсь.)

Also, I read that they set the tent up around 5pm? You think it was earlier?
Следствие неправильно определило время происшествия. Время происшествия определяется обледенением следов-столбиков:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68954

и освещением на фотографиях восхождения:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61394
« Last Edit: July 31, 2022, 06:36:32 PM by Игорь Б. »
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

August 01, 2022, 05:56:57 AM
Reply #18
Offline

Manti


This theory is really interesting and explains the seemingly irrational behaviours that many other theories don't.

I think some further research would be nice on how long Substance 78 remains potent. If it's more than a month, then the searchers who dug the tent out should have also suffered its effects.

If less than a month, can it still be detected? I have always had a doubt about the disappearing toxicology reports because of the time that passed since their death and the samples being taken. Many substances would have broken down and become completely undetectable. Or perhaps the subzero temperature slows down this process?


 

August 01, 2022, 03:25:16 PM
Reply #19
Offline

WarpedWing


There was no internet in the USSR in 1959. Who taught meteorology to students at the Polytechnic Institute?

In 2014, Alexander Alekseenkov conducted an experiment - he went down from the place of the tent into the forest in the clothes of the Dyatlovites - in socks and a sweater, and climbed back up.

Perhaps Zolotaryov had some meteorological training in the military. Even layman's common sense weather should suffice for understanding cold fronts following warm fronts. Wouldn't weather be a part of training to be a hiking tourism guide? I'm not suggesting any of them were professional meteorologists, by any means.

That's really interesting about Alekseenkov! I'd like to shake his hand for doing that. I wonder if warmer might be worse, actually, since the snow might melt underfoot and make your feet wet?
 

August 01, 2022, 03:54:34 PM
Reply #20
Offline

WarpedWing


This theory is really interesting and explains the seemingly irrational behaviours that many other theories don't.

I think some further research would be nice on how long Substance 78 remains potent. If it's more than a month, then the searchers who dug the tent out should have also suffered its effects.

If less than a month, can it still be detected? I have always had a doubt about the disappearing toxicology reports because of the time that passed since their death and the samples being taken. Many substances would have broken down and become completely undetectable. Or perhaps the subzero temperature slows down this process?

This page is a really good source for info about BZ: https://www.chemeurope.com/en/encyclopedia/3-Quinuclidinyl_benzilate.html. It says: "BZ is odorless. It is stable in most solvents, with a half-life of three to four weeks in moist air; even heat-producing munitions can disperse it. It is extremely persistent in soil and water and on most surfaces."

I have no idea how to assess the potency of such a chemical in that environment. The search team made it to the mountain about 3-4 weeks after the event, so any remaining BZ would be half as potent. I don't know what the implications of that are, and it might also depend on how such a chemical was administered to the group. If it was distributed by a pyrotechnic device with the intention of administration by inhalation, perhaps the amount required for transdermal administration is a lot higher than what would be available on the mountain in late February.. e.g. smoking a marijuana cigarette versus trying to rub the contents on your arm.  And only at half potency, too. grin1

It definitely can be absorbed through the skin, though: "Although inhalation of aerosolized BZ is probably the greatest risk on the battlefield, terrorists may choose to disseminate BZ in forms that provide significant opportunities for ingestion and absorption through the skin."

The webpage does imply that it has to be mixed with specific chemicals to really be viable for skin absorption: "...[bz] may be dissolved in a solvent such as DMSO to enhance percutaneous absorption."

It also seems to say that percutaneous administration is relatively weak action-wise: "Percutaneous absorption of BZ dissolved in propylene glycol yields, after a latent period of up to 24 hours, serum levels approximately 5 to 10% of those achieved with intravenous or intramuscular administration." Well, compared to injecting it.

As far as detecting it on the mountainside: "Because BZ is odorless and nonirritating, and because clinical effects are not seen until after a latent period of 30 minutes to 24 hours, exposure could occur without the knowledge of casualties. No currently available field military or civilian detector is designed to disclose the presence of BZ or other anticholinergic compounds in the environment. Confirmation of the exact chemical involved in an incapacitating agent exposure would have to await laboratory analysis of environmental specimens containing the agent."

And regarding lab analysis: "Metabolism of BZ would be expected to occur primarily in the liver, with elimination of unchanged agent and metabolites chiefly in the urine."

So, a liver test or a urinalysis that looks for specific markers might have been able to detect something.

Was it ever determined what the "gelatinous mass" was in their stomachs? If they all ate the same thing (kissel?), that might be a viable route too, and not just for military chemicals but for "folk" poisons as well. Nighshades, etc., are anticholinergic too.
 

August 01, 2022, 05:09:01 PM
Reply #21
Online

Ziljoe


There was no internet in the USSR in 1959. Who taught meteorology to students at the Polytechnic Institute?

In 2014, Alexander Alekseenkov conducted an experiment - he went down from the place of the tent into the forest in the clothes of the Dyatlovites - in socks and a sweater, and climbed back up.

Perhaps Zolotaryov had some meteorological training in the military. Even layman's common sense weather should suffice for understanding cold fronts following warm fronts. Wouldn't weather be a part of training to be a hiking tourism guide? I'm not suggesting any of them were professional meteorologists, by any means.

That's really interesting about Alekseenkov! I'd like to shake his hand for doing that. I wonder if warmer might be worse, actually, since the snow might melt underfoot and make your feet wet?

Hi warpedwing,

My interpretation is that Igor b is working out that there was a warm front from the fact that there was raised footprints, they only occur under specific variables. No matter how good any meteorological knowledge can be , it's just cause and effect. The raised foot prints are the evidence of the warm front.

It's not here or there if they could predict a warm front, just there was one?

To this day I take the weather forecast with a pinch of salt. Many pilots have been caught out by odd changes in weather fronts, it's not a precise prediction to this day, even with our technology and instant communication.

Im not meaning to be controversial.  I just think that Igor b is pointing to what was found after. The raised foot prints.

Alekseenkov experiment shows it's possible to walk in theses conditions. By everything I can see, the slope is rather gentle.
 

August 01, 2022, 07:00:24 PM
Reply #22
Offline

Игорь Б.


Even layman's common sense weather should suffice for understanding cold fronts following warm fronts. Wouldn't weather be a part of training to be a hiking tourism guide?
Они не знали о приближении холодного атмосферного фронта. Этому есть документальное доказательство - запись в дневнике накануне происшествия о потеплении и усилении ветра:
Quote
Wind is western, warm, piercing, with speed like the draft from airplanes at take-off.
https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary?rbid=17742

Потепление и усиление ветра - главные предвестники холодного фронта, а в дневниках нет ни слова о предстоящем похолодании. А ведь это было очень важно.

I wonder if warmer might be worse, actually, since the snow might melt underfoot and make your feet wet?
Я ходил в носках по снегу при околонулевой температуре (°C), чтобы доказать, что дятловцы уходили от палатки медленным шагом:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=107084

Действительно, носки влажные и ноги мёрзнут, если стоять или идти медленно. Но ничего страшного. Идти можно, тем более если идти нормальным шагом. Кроме того, у дятловцев не было выбора. И вообще, люди обмораживают руки и ноги в гораздо более безобидных ситуациях.
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

August 03, 2022, 03:30:20 PM
Reply #23
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss




                 Reply #18
.............................................................
... I have always had a doubt about the disappearing toxicology reports ..............................................

I could be wrong as I have not found anything to verify this, but I would tend to think that no toxicological test could detect the presence of BZ, in 1959, on month-old corpses.

In other words, I strongly doubt WarpedWing's assertion :

So, a liver test or a urinalysis that looks for specific markers might have been able to detect something.

But that is irrelevant since we cannot go back to 1959.


                Reply #8
..................................
 Everything I write should likewise be questioned. I would love for everything in my theory to be disproved wrong in order to move on to other better theories,
..............................................................


The BZ is a psycho incapacitating agent that causes delirium which himpedes the successful completion of any military task.

Indeed, the BZ could be used as a weapon that could considerably diminish the combat effectiveness of a large number of enemy soldiers, while having the advantage of being a non-lethal or, more precisely, a reduced lethal weapon.

On the other hand, following Eduard Tumanov's assessment hikers took part in a fight, either between them... I had considered testing a psycho-stimulant intended to increase (for a time) the combat effectiveness of the soldiers on one's own side.

This sort of super amphetamine could have increased aggressiveness and determination to the point of causing a disastrous and fatal Capgras syndrome
Jean Daniel Reuss: Altercation on the pass ---> Altercation on the pass : « February 03, 2020, 11:04:13 PM »  --> Reply #15 and Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8382#msg8382
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg8762#msg8762

Perhaps the Soviet military had plans to test Substance 78 on the Dyatlovites.

••  But whether it is a psycho incapacitant or a psycho stimulant, the preparation of a demonstration trial of this nature (with non-consenting human cobayes because they are kept in their ignoring state) is delicate.

The experimenters must necessarily be able to justify such a demonstration test with arguments showing that they will be able to obtain significant advances or progress.

This implies the organisation of observations, measurements, feedback and complete and detailed reports.

••  That is to say that a test of this nature is necessarily associated with important logistics that should not be forgotten.
 

More simply, I mean that the assertion:
It's also easy to watch the hikers' movements from a clandestine location, possibly above the Dyaltovites' campsite, with binoculars and a flare gun.

is an extremely weak and unconvincing argument.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 1 : The region chosen for the test is unsuitable


•••  Logically essential presence of specialized observers near the human cobayes constituted by the hikers is needed.

•••  Physiological measurements (body temperature, blood pressure, heart rate, nerve impulse speed....etc.).

•••  In the case of BZ, it is a psychotropic drug that disrupts the mental functioning of human cobayes.

It is above all a question of assessing the loss of the sense of reality and the (low) levels of consciousness and lucidity.

Detailed interrogations would have been essential since destructive hallucinations are practically undetectable by physiological measures.


•••  Without being completely isolated the area of Mount Otorten is a little difficult to access.

How to bring the specialists of the BZ action to the test site ?

• By land on skis the journey requires at least a day from North-2, plus a few hours by truck for the journey vizhay - or other agglomeration - to North-2.

With a tracked vehicle, it would not be faster. See for example :
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Simplest Explanation is Often the Best " on: March 08, 2020, 12:15:13 AM " ---> Reply #17 and Reply #18
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=589.msg8721#msg8721

• By air: the helicopters are noisy and very visible which would risk not going unnoticed by hikers and would distort the test.
In addition, if I understood correctly, the presence of a ground crew to secure the landing is usual in these windy hills.



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 2 : The Dyatlov's group was difficult to locate

•••  Due to the lack of suitable maps, which were reserved for use by the Soviet army, the route of Dyatlov's group was particularly unclear and uncertain from the start.

•••  It was only on 28 January that Yuri Yudin was able to confirm to Settlement 41 that the 9 hikers had entered the Auspiya valley (which was probably not the best choice of route).

•••  With no way of knowing how fast they were progressing in the valley and with no set schedule, the position of the tent on 1 February was "somewhere between the Auspiya valley and the summit of Mount Otorten" which is remarkably inaccurate.

•••  Above all, no particular task of military interest was imposed on the hickers.
(digging a trench, preparing a helicopter landing area by cutting down several trees, building a semi-permanent shelter......).

This would have made it possible to evaluate the reduction or total loss of efficiency caused by the BZ.




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 3 : Total lack of clues indicating the presence of experimenters or deliberate criminal behaviour of the experimenters ?

         1) - There is no manifestation of the testers or experimenters.

         2) - At first, the experimenters witness the delirious behaviour of the hickers who are injuring themselves or each other...

But then the experimenters witness some hikers falling in the snow, not getting up, and waiting patiently without intervening for long hours until they freeze to death.

This is not a test, it is a programmed killing!

         3) - There is therefore a contradiction in the use of BZ considered to be a non-lethal or more exactly a reduced lethality weapon (unlike other chemical weapons: Tabun, Sarin, Soman......etc.) and the more or less predictable result of the so-called test: the 9 human cobayes are all dead, having been voluntarily deprived of the slightest help.



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 4 : Weakness of the argument :
I do think that most if not all deaths can be explained by extreme physical and mental distress and inability to make good decisions.


         1) - I do not have much reason to doubt the opinion of Eduard Tumanov (Doctor of forensic medicine at Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University) and his views can be summarised as follows:

The hikers took part in a fight against outsiders

         2) - Common sense is enough to indicate that the various wounds are produced by human attackers determined to leave no survivors.

Just look at these two web pages :

https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461

•••  Consider the injuries to the hands that make one suspect that some hikers may have struck with full force with their fists.

•••  Consider the skull fractures caused by blunt object blows delivered with force and precision.

•••  Consider the sunken chests which can easily be explained by trampoline-type exercises on the chest of the victim who was previously lying on his back.

•••  Consider the eyes removed with a small spoon with edges previously sharpened with a grinding wheel...


         3) - With his incisive style Charles has recently provided an additional statistical argument :

Charles : Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories  « on: February 23, 2022, 11:36:36 AM » --->  Reply #45
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg17543#msg17543

They said "unknown compelling force", "unknown" but not blind... and even looking for the kill.

Charles : Murdered / Re: A problem with homicide theories « on: May 06, 2022, 09:38:06 PM »  --->        Reply #56
 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg17645#msg17645

Skull, sternum and ribs fractures only represent 6,57% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 90% of the fractures.

Arm, hand, leg and foot fractures represent 60,51% of the 178 M fractures, but at Dyatlov's Pass they represent 0% of the fractures.

In my opinion, the concentration of the 29 bone fractures in the blue circle also containing brain, heart and lungs can only mean "aiming at vital organs in the purpose to kill".




         4) - Everyone can notice on the forums of various nationalities devoted to the DPI, the multiplication of more or less plausible theories which seek unconsciously or quite voluntarily, to avoid considering that the 9 hikers were simply assassinated by determined attackers.

•  There is no one so deaf as the one who does not want to hear.

•  There is no one so blind as the one who does not want to see.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

August 03, 2022, 06:48:13 PM
Reply #24
Online

Ziljoe


Hi Jean Daniel Reuss

The statistical reference to 90% this or that is absolute nonsense and has no relavence or evidence to murder from the 178 m researched data on broken bones.Total misuse of data. It is this uneducatef use of statistics that totally makes a mockery of any rational argument. I dunno if I'm allowed to swear but I am in my own head.

I don't want to be rude but .#&£**&+£#@.
@#_&+£**:'"!. Even it was murder, those stats have nothing to do with providing evidence. Pish poor evaluation. Shocking to be honest.

Anyway, what about the dilated pupils?
 

August 03, 2022, 06:59:06 PM
Reply #25
Offline

Manti


Just playing devil's advocate here, but a very simple explanation for dilated pupils: they froze to death at night, their flashlight ran out of battery / they dropped it and couldn't find it, the fire went out, in other words, it was really really dark, so their pupils would have been naturally dilated.



 

August 03, 2022, 07:13:53 PM
Reply #26
Online

Ziljoe


Hi Manti

Dilated pupils only occur with toxins in the body with hypothermia. Or that's how I understand it to be. If there was no toxins , there is zero dilated pupils. I could  be wrong.

I did copy and paste Igor's clinical evidence for this on another thread. I'm sure Igor b will repost the link.
 

August 03, 2022, 07:29:21 PM
Reply #27
Online

Ziljoe


Here it is. Igor's work.

Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils. Only in Kolmogorova the state of the pupils is not described. (For obvious reasons, the state of the pupils is not described in the four found in the stream, so we are not talking about them).

10 years ago, questions of statistics of signs of death from hypothermia interested an expert from Khabarovsk Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
http://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1891
He did a great job of studying 100 cases of death from cold and freezing.

Interesting things have come to light. For example, it turned out that the “pose of a chilled person”, which was considered almost mandatory for a frozen person, was met only in 2% of cases.
But the main thing is the pupils. Of the 100 examined, 13 were sober and all had constricted pupils. 87 of the frozen ones were drunk and they all had dilated pupils.


Thus, if the cause of death is freezing and the person was sober, the pupils will definitely be constricted (100%).



The examination established the absence of alcohol among tourists. And according to a number of other signs and evidence of Yu. Yudin, there is no reason to doubt their sobriety. Then the most likely cause of dilated pupils is the preliminary poisoning of tourists.

There is still no doubt about freezing as the cause of death. This is indicated by the main, "reinforced concrete" signs of freezing observed in the dead:
Cerebral edema 99%
Juiciness, plethora of the soft integument of the skull 91%
Plethora of heart cavities 95%
Lungs on a dark red section 98%
Vishnevsky's spots 95%

But the version with a certain chemical effect, as the cause initiating the tragedy, receives weighty evidence.
The rest of the versions are inconsistent, because. cannot make pupils dilated when they should be narrow .

Why did the medical examiner overlook this?
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny could experience a lack of information and accumulated statistical data on this issue at that time.
Modern "invited" experts - because of the lack of practice in this particular type of expertise.

There may be misconceptions that the pupils of the frozen were dilated, allegedly due to darkness. This is not true.
Pupils cease to react to light at the last stage of freezing, even during life. After death, the width of the pupils is controlled by completely different processes.

Quote
The pupils are constricted, do not react to light.


Quote
The reaction to light is sharply weakened or lost.

The pupils do not care - it is dark or light, the eyelids are open or closed, however, in sober people they will be narrowed in 100% of cases, and in drunken people they will be expanded in 100% of cases.
Lighting conditions do not affect this attribute. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.


Returning to the question of abnormally dilated pupils in those who are frozen sober:


It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
And the pupils are really very dilated:

( In Igor's b link there is a photo of the dilated eye pupil of Dyatolv)

100% the presence of constricted pupils in frozen sober people was confirmed in another work:
"Death from hypothermia" V.P. Desyatov, 1977


Quote
In the corpses of persons who died from cooling while sober, the pupils, according to our observations, turned out to be constricted, while in the case of severe intoxication preceding death, the pupils were dilated in 59%.

In this case, not even all drunks had dilated pupils. Apparently 41% of drunks with narrow pupils were slightly drunk.


But the tourists weren't drunk at all.
First, the medical examiner revived established the absence of alcohol.
Secondly, in the same work by Desyatov, the difference between sober and drunkards is indicated by the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids:


Quote
On non-frozen corpses of persons who died of cold sober, the mucous membrane of the eyelids in all cases was pale pink.

The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny described the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids only in three: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova.

Doroshenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale pink .

Krivonischenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale gray .(in this case, the pale gray color can be caused by the so-called "weathering", because Krivonischenko was lying face up and was almost not covered with snow)

Kolmogorov:
Quote
The mucous membrane of the eyelids is reddish in color.

No blueness.

The reason for the expansion of the pupils could be the wolverine's chemical weapon:
Quote
Sometimes the cause of mydriasis (dilated pupils) can be hidden in acute poisoning of the body and its intoxication. And the development of dilated pupils is largely facilitated by the conditions of a professional activity related to the use of toxic chemicals.
 

August 04, 2022, 08:48:36 PM
Reply #28
Offline

GlennM


I have always had a doubt about the disappearing toxicology reports , QUOTE

It seems to me that of all the extensive case research, writings and speculation, the one stone that has never been turned is the missing toxocology reports. Surely they exist. Surely someone will find them. The toxicology information is essential. No complete explanation of the tragedy can happen without it. I hope a Dyatlovite in Russia can get the information. It's at a hospital or lab, not in government archives, I think.
 

August 05, 2022, 12:50:22 AM
Reply #29
Offline

Игорь Б.


Surely they exist. Surely someone will find them.
Нет. По закону копии заключений экспертиз хранятся в экспертном учреждении 25 лет. Так что если копии заключений экспертиз не были уничтожены сразу в 1959 году их в любом случае уничтожили в 1984 году.
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054