Theories Discussion > KGB / Radiation / Military involvement
Kolevatov's device
Ryan:
A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/
On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!
But there are a few issues with this:
An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.
The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.
Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.
The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Ryan on March 02, 2019, 04:55:42 PM ---A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/
On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!
But there are a few issues with this:
An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.
The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.
Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.
The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.
--- End quote ---
It would also explain Lev Ivanov's Geiger Counter going crazy around the Tent Site. But thats about it. All the other Events need explaining and the Sr-90 RTG theory cant do that. But once again its the kind of analysis we need. And then the common sense theory is with us again, ie, as you say ''The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it''. And there really would be no need for them to do so on this particular type of Hike.
Star man:
It's a shame we don't actually know what Kolevatov's device was.
Were the safety protocols for such RTGs well developed in 1959?
GeneralFailure:
--- Quote from: Monika on March 02, 2019, 11:27:16 AM ---But why would they make it so complicated? Why did not they just put them in closed coffins. And they found them in May because they were deep in the snow and in March the probe did not get to them.
And rely on the fact that the radioactivity will be washed out with the water is naive and unreliable method.
--- End quote ---
Well, such a device in my opinion would be a state secret. Obviously the authorities didn't want such a information to become public. And washing the radioactive particle with water was *the only* available on the site. If you will read the radiation reports you will see that a washing test was actually made :
--- Quote ---"Experimental washing of the clothes showed that the pollution is reduced, the percentage of decreasing varies from 30% to 60% (clothes were washed in running cold water for 3 hours)."
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?rbid=17743
--- End quote ---
If the percentage of decreasing is at average 45% in three hours, imagine what was the radiation level at the time of incident...
--- Quote from: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 12:57:48 PM ---If any such device was found and it was considered to have been the cause of all the Dyatlov Groups demise then why would the Authorities want to cover it up. It would have been much better for them to simply say that a piece of equipment had malfunctioned. Its highly unlikely that any such Instrument was used by the Group. And what about those very unusual injuries to some of the Group ! ?
--- End quote ---
As I said, my opinion is that the device was a state secret and could not be exposed to the public. The unusual injuries... in my opinion the biggest mistery of the entire story (and the key to reveal the mistery) is the radiation at the site, not some broken ribs. You can go into forest, climb a tree and you can fall and break your neck, but NEVER your clothes will became radioactive.
And what to explain to public? That they carried an experimental device that contaminated with radiations the tent... In fact they said something like this i. " overwhelming force, which the tourists were not able to overcome". Is this "overwhelming force" the force of the atom?
--- Quote from: Ryan on March 02, 2019, 04:55:42 PM ---A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/
On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!
But there are a few issues with this:
An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.
The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.
Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.
The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for all the information and for explaining how dangerous is such a device.As I said before, I think that the radiation is the key to solving the mistery. One theory is that the device was small, portable. In the case that it was taken from the university with or without permission, and the development of this device is state secret, is is obviously that nobody would want this information became public... See the tiny size of this heater unit:
--- Quote from: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 06:14:21 PM ---It would also explain Lev Ivanov's Geiger Counter going crazy around the Tent Site. But thats about it. All the other Events need explaining and the Sr-90 RTG theory cant do that. But once again its the kind of analysis we need. And then the common sense theory is with us again, ie, as you say ''The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it''. And there really would be no need for them to do so on this particular type of Hike.
--- End quote ---
If we agree that the crime scene was altered by a team sent for "cleaning" the site, then obviously we try to solve an "fabricated" mystery that cannot be explained by any common sense theory.
How do we know that the crime scene was altered? well, the radioactivity didn't come just from thin air, from the wind, cold, darkness. It has to have a source. And obviously this source was not found by the search teams, meaning that it was removed => crime scene was altered.
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: GeneralFailure on March 03, 2019, 01:45:28 AM ---
--- Quote from: Monika on March 02, 2019, 11:27:16 AM ---But why would they make it so complicated? Why did not they just put them in closed coffins. And they found them in May because they were deep in the snow and in March the probe did not get to them.
And rely on the fact that the radioactivity will be washed out with the water is naive and unreliable method.
--- End quote ---
Well, such a device in my opinion would be a state secret. Obviously the authorities didn't want such a information to become public. And washing the radioactive particle with water was *the only* available on the site. If you will read the radiation reports you will see that a washing test was actually made :
--- Quote ---"Experimental washing of the clothes showed that the pollution is reduced, the percentage of decreasing varies from 30% to 60% (clothes were washed in running cold water for 3 hours)."
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377?rbid=17743
--- End quote ---
If the percentage of decreasing is at average 45% in three hours, imagine what was the radiation level at the time of incident...
--- Quote from: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 12:57:48 PM ---If any such device was found and it was considered to have been the cause of all the Dyatlov Groups demise then why would the Authorities want to cover it up. It would have been much better for them to simply say that a piece of equipment had malfunctioned. Its highly unlikely that any such Instrument was used by the Group. And what about those very unusual injuries to some of the Group ! ?
--- End quote ---
As I said, my opinion is that the device was a state secret and could not be exposed to the public. The unusual injuries... in my opinion the biggest mistery of the entire story (and the key to reveal the mistery) is the radiation at the site, not some broken ribs. You can go into forest, climb a tree and you can fall and break your neck, but NEVER your clothes will became radioactive.
And what to explain to public? That they carried an experimental device that contaminated with radiations the tent... In fact they said something like this i. " overwhelming force, which the tourists were not able to overcome". Is this "overwhelming force" the force of the atom?
--- Quote from: Ryan on March 02, 2019, 04:55:42 PM ---A comparable idea: https://www.xkcd.com/2115/
On one hand, this would explain the contamination on the clothing. And, frankly, if a Sr-90 RTG broke open in my tent, I know I'd immediately cut my way out to escape!
But there are a few issues with this:
An RTG doesn't have an off switch. Sure, having a space heater in the tent at night would be lovely, but how do you transport it, hot, during the day? Anything that can generate a useful amount of heat in a tent would continue to output the same amount of heat if confined in a backpack. I could see it scorching anything in there or starting a fire.
The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it. It can't just go missing. I'm guessing that much Sr-90 could give an entire village cancer if dumped in the water supply, or, if strapped to a hand grenade and detonated, might make Red Square uninhabitable for generations. Carrying it on public trains, and then taking it on a dangerous hike in the Urals, and subjecting it to the possibility of loss, theft, or damage would be irresponsible beyond belief.
Also, the metal container of the RTG can trivially shield the beta radiation. But when the electrons get stopped by the metal, they produce x-rays via a process called bremsstrahlung. Shielding those x-rays would likely take a lot of lead. So either this is too heavy to carry, or it will emit lots of x-rays, which isn't going to be very fun if you're the one responsible for carrying it all day in your backpack.
The Soviets did use Sr-90 RTGs for unattended lighthouses. Emphasis on unattended. They weren't intended to be operated in close proximity to humans for extended periods of time. And they're causing a lot of trouble when scrappers cut into them, not knowing what they are.
--- End quote ---
Thank you for all the information and for explaining how dangerous is such a device.As I said before, I think that the radiation is the key to solving the mistery. One theory is that the device was small, portable. In the case that it was taken from the university with or without permission, and the development of this device is state secret, is is obviously that nobody would want this information became public... See the tiny size of this heater unit:
--- Quote from: sarapuk on March 02, 2019, 06:14:21 PM ---It would also explain Lev Ivanov's Geiger Counter going crazy around the Tent Site. But thats about it. All the other Events need explaining and the Sr-90 RTG theory cant do that. But once again its the kind of analysis we need. And then the common sense theory is with us again, ie, as you say ''The quantity of radioisotope in an RTG is frankly quite terrifying. No university is going to let a student walk off with it''. And there really would be no need for them to do so on this particular type of Hike.
--- End quote ---
If we agree that the crime scene was altered by a team sent for "cleaning" the site, then obviously we try to solve an "fabricated" mystery that cannot be explained by any common sense theory.
How do we know that the crime scene was altered? well, the radioactivity didn't come just from thin air, from the wind, cold, darkness. It has to have a source. And obviously this source was not found by the search teams, meaning that it was removed => crime scene was altered.
--- End quote ---
But is it really feasible that a group of Students were let loose with such a Device ! ? Let loose with a STATE SECRET ! ?
Some people have said that they think the Stream at the Ravine was contaminated with Radiation Particles.
Maybe there was no Radiation at the Tent Site ! ?
There is NO EVIDENCE or anything of such nature to suggest that a Team of CLEANERS went to the area, certainly not during the initial Search Parties efforts.
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