Theories Discussion > Murdered
Murder Indead
sarapuk:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 10, 2019, 06:50:41 PM ---
--- Quote from: sarapuk on October 08, 2019, 12:30:51 PM ---Bold Statements with no supporting EVIDENCE. And you State, Men when it could have included Women. You State that it was relatively mild that evening of February 1 1959, thats news to Me ! ? By all accounts the weather was awful and life threatening to any one not properly dressed. Etc.
--- End quote ---
One of the most recent books on the Dyatlov pass killing is written by Svetlana Oss, "Don't go there." Although I strongly disagree with her rather sensational and completely unsubstantiated theory of the identity of the killers, the book is extremely valuable because Svetlana Oss has brought forward new valuable information.
Part of that material is the reports from the nearest weather stations. The nearest weather stations are Nyaksimvol (59 miles north-east of Kholat Syakhl) and Burmantovo (41 miles north-east of Kholat Syakhl). On February 1, 1959, the temperatures were as follows:
Burmantovo
02:00-07:00: -5.9C
08:00-13:00: -6.3C
14:00-19:00: -10.2C
20:00-01:00: -18.1C
Nyaksimvol
02:00-07:00: -6.9C
08:00-13:00: -9.0C
14:00-19:00: -13.8C
20:00-01:00: -18.0C
On February 2, the temperature dropped to around -28C. But then, the attack had already taken place and the students were almost certainly already dead. How can we say that with certainty? We can know that the disaster must have struck on February 1 because the nine students infallibly wrote in their diaries, and the last diary was written on January 31. There was no diary entry from February 1, and this demonstrates that the disaster - that is the attack - must have taken place on February 1.
Thus, it is evident that when the students were forced to leave their tent the temperatures were relatively mild. So it makes perfect sense that the attacking group had to hunt down their victims in order to accomplish their mission.
As for the possibility that the group that murdered the nine students could also have included women, it is unlikely. Trained, professional killers are generally males.
--- End quote ---
Well as you must be aware weather can change dramatically in any location and 40 or 50 miles away is a long way. So its not possible to know with any certainty the exact weather conditions. For the record, I dont believe that the Dyatlov Group were killed by other Humans. But I think you will find that the USSR had highly trained men and women capable of killing.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Morski Re: Murder Indead on August 16, 2018, 02:24:13 PM Reply #26 ---If we go for the "must be a murder" theory, few of the main questions I see reasonable are:
1. Who is responsible for that brutal act?
2. What was the motive?
3. Where was/were the murderer/s?
4. What happened to their own traces?
5. Who is pulling the strings of the investigation and why the participants of the search/investigation had to sign a 25 year prohibition to disclose information
--- End quote ---
1. Who is responsible for that brutal act ?
In some sense, one could say symbolically that the responsible is the voucher:
Igor Dyatlov has " a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI° Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.e from the leadership of the settlement-colony.
In Serov, Ivdel and Vizhay Dyatlov's group had exhibited its voucher - Note the difference with Blinov's group which did not show a voucher.
Thus the 9 hikers appeared as to be official (or semi official) representatives of the Soviet government in the eyes of :
a) - Hypothesis N°2 - A few foreign ex-zeks and patriots from countries suffering from Soviet oppression who had not yet been allowed (or able) to leave the Vizhay region.
b) - Hypothesis N°2-bis - A few Stalinist Russians opposed to the reforms which had become more pronounced since the XXth (1956) Congress of the Communist Party in 1956 who lived in the Vizhay region.
2. What was the motive ?
Indeed for historians, the period 1953-1964, (which is called the Khrushchev epoch or the Khrushchev thaw), is particularly complicated (and also not well known) because Khrushchev met opponents in all (Stalinist) strata of Russian society (Army, Gulag Administration, Nomenklatura, etc.). See by way of introduction:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160
It should not be forgotten that for military theorists a terrorist attack is a form of asymmetric warfare, with various motivations (revenge, intimidation, example, provocation, tactics ....) and consequences very variable and always difficult to predict.
DPI should be classified in the vast category of terrorist attacks in the broad sense. In any case, 61 years after the DPI compelled the current Russian authorities to make a fool of themselves with manifestly absurd statements.
Hypothesis N°2
External (international) opposition of patriots from countries in conflict with Russian and Soviet oppression who saw themselves as unfiltered warriors in a war that was not yet over.
Hypothesis N°2-bis
Internal Stalinist opposition coming from several Gulag leaders, and powerful camp commanders, who with Khrushchev's reforms were losing their power and privileges. These Stalinists also feared that the XXI° st (1959) Congress of the PCUS would be even more devastating for them (this was inaccurate).
because the XXI° st Congress of the PCUS had little influence on the desalinization.
3. Where was/were the murderer/s ?
Hypothesis N°2
Three ex-Zeks who lived and worked in the Vizhay region who grabbed this wonderful opportunity for them (since the route of the 9 hikers was approximately known in Ivdel) to succeed in a spectacular action.
It is hard to determine whether these ex-zeks were : Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians... or from other countries ?
The Poles are well positioned because of Katyn (1940) and the Polish October (1956), followed by the pro-Soviet politics of Gomulka, which discouraged some Polish ex-zeks from returning to Poland.
There is also Maslennikov's sybilline allusion : Reasons for leaving...from the tent..."come out one by one, run (Caucasus)."
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=464.msg9152#msg9152
Hypothesis N°2-bis
Aleks Kandr proposes a complete and coherent explanation (but it is in Russian, which is hard for me to read). See
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
There was one commanditaire (client) that remained in Ivdel "which could be one of the leaders of the colony 64 at the SCh/349-Ivdellag" (USh/349 or SCh/349).
The commanditaire (client) had hired three mercenary killers who were guards (or former guards) of one of the Gulag camps. These former guards specialized in pursuing the few prisoners who escaped over the barbed wire. The high Soviet administration had naturally forbidden to entrust firearms to such guardian-killers, who were efficient but whose loyalty to the regime was not assured.
4. What happened to their own traces ?
• On February 26th, on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl as well as around the cedar, all traces had been erased by the wind, except for a few due to random effects (chance) which are intrinsic to Fluid Mechanics.
• In the Auspiya Valley the attackers (or murderers if you prefer) carefully followed the tracks of the hikers from North-2 to the tent.
• On February 2, 1959 the attackers first cut the tent before leaving. To get from the tent to North-2 the attackers carefully followed the same tracks (which had been marked by 12 skiers = 9 hikers + 3 attackers).
5. Who is pulling the strings of the investigation
(Why the participants of the search/investigation had to sign a 25 year prohibition to disclose information. ---> Read the explanations in the posts of WAB )
Khrushchev ---> Khrushchev's close collaborators in Moscow ---> In the Sverdlovsk region the KGB and the CPSU ... whatever the details, the main thing is to remember that the DPI had been a bitter failure for the KGB, which had been proved incapable of protecting the 9 hikers...
°°°°°°°
To be continued -works in progress - go to : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
Morski:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 22, 2020, 03:27:13 PM ---
--- Quote from: Morski Re: Murder Indead on August 16, 2018, 02:24:13 PM Reply #26 ---If we go for the "must be a murder" theory, few of the main questions I see reasonable are:
1. Who is responsible for that brutal act?
2. What was the motive?
3. Where was/were the murderer/s?
4. What happened to their own traces?
5. Who is pulling the strings of the investigation and why the participants of the search/investigation had to sign a 25 year prohibition to disclose information
--- End quote ---
1. Who is responsible for that brutal act ?
In some sense, one could say symbolically that the responsible is the voucher:
Igor Dyatlov has " a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI° Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.e from the leadership of the settlement-colony.
In Serov, Ivdel and Vizhay Dyatlov's group had exhibited its voucher - Note the difference with Blinov's group which did not show a voucher.
Thus the 9 hikers appeared as to be official (or semi official) representatives of the Soviet government in the eyes of :
a) - Hypothesis N°2 - A few foreign ex-zeks and patriots from countries suffering from Soviet oppression who had not yet been allowed (or able) to leave the Vizhay region.
b) - Hypothesis N°2-bis - A few Stalinist Russians opposed to the reforms which had become more pronounced since the XXth (1956) Congress of the Communist Party in 1956 who lived in the Vizhay region.
2. What was the motive ?
Indeed for historians, the period 1953-1964, (which is called the Khrushchev epoch or the Khrushchev thaw), is particularly complicated (and also not well known) because Khrushchev met opponents in all (Stalinist) strata of Russian society (Army, Gulag Administration, Nomenklatura, etc.). See by way of introduction:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160
It should not be forgotten that for military theorists a terrorist attack is a form of asymmetric warfare, with various motivations (revenge, intimidation, example, provocation, tactics ....) and consequences very variable and always difficult to predict.
DPI should be classified in the vast category of terrorist attacks in the broad sense. In any case, 61 years after the DPI compelled the current Russian authorities to make a fool of themselves with manifestly absurd statements.
Hypothesis N°2
External (international) opposition of patriots from countries in conflict with Russian and Soviet oppression who saw themselves as unfiltered warriors in a war that was not yet over.
Hypothesis N°2-bis
Internal Stalinist opposition coming from several Gulag leaders, and powerful camp commanders, who with Khrushchev's reforms were losing their power and privileges. These Stalinists also feared that the XXI° st (1959) Congress of the PCUS would be even more devastating for them (this was inaccurate).
because the XXI° st Congress of the PCUS had little influence on the desalinization.
3. Where was/were the murderer/s ?
Hypothesis N°2
Three ex-Zeks who lived and worked in the Vizhay region who grabbed this wonderful opportunity for them (since the route of the 9 hikers was approximately known in Ivdel) to succeed in a spectacular action.
It is hard to determine whether these ex-zeks were : Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians... or from other countries ?
The Poles are well positioned because of Katyn (1940) and the Polish October (1956), followed by the pro-Soviet politics of Gomulka, which discouraged some Polish ex-zeks from returning to Poland.
There is also Maslennikov's sybilline allusion : Reasons for leaving...from the tent..."come out one by one, run (Caucasus)."
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=464.msg9152#msg9152
Hypothesis N°2-bis
Aleks Kandr proposes a complete and coherent explanation (but it is in Russian, which is hard for me to read). See
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
There was one commanditaire (client) that remained in Ivdel "which could be one of the leaders of the colony 64 at the SCh/349-Ivdellag" (USh/349 or SCh/349).
The commanditaire (client) had hired three mercenary killers who were guards (or former guards) of one of the Gulag camps. These former guards specialized in pursuing the few prisoners who escaped over the barbed wire. The high Soviet administration had naturally forbidden to entrust firearms to such guardian-killers, who were efficient but whose loyalty to the regime was not assured.
4. What happened to their own traces ?
• On February 26th, on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl as well as around the cedar, all traces had been erased by the wind, except for a few due to random effects (chance) which are intrinsic to Fluid Mechanics.
• In the Auspiya Valley the attackers (or murderers if you prefer) carefully followed the tracks of the hikers from North-2 to the tent.
• On February 2, 1959 the attackers first cut the tent before leaving. To get from the tent to North-2 the attackers carefully followed the same tracks (which had been marked by 12 skiers = 9 hikers + 3 attackers).
5. Who is pulling the strings of the investigation
(Why the participants of the search/investigation had to sign a 25 year prohibition to disclose information. ---> Read the explanations in the posts of WAB )
Khrushchev ---> Khrushchev's close collaborators in Moscow ---> In the Sverdlovsk region the KGB and the CPSU ... whatever the details, the main thing is to remember that the DPI had been a bitter failure for the KGB, which had been proved incapable of protecting the 9 hikers...
°°°°°°°
To be continued -works in progress - go to : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
--- End quote ---
Hello, Jean.
You are commenting on a post I have written some 2 years ago... For me those questions are not relevant for a long time now, since I am not into the "murder" narrative. But thank you for the effort anyway.
armyeng:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 22, 2020, 03:27:13 PM ---
--- Quote from: Morski Re: Murder Indead on August 16, 2018, 02:24:13 PM Reply #26 ---If we go for the "must be a murder" theory, few of the main questions I see reasonable are:
1. Who is responsible for that brutal act?
2. What was the motive?
3. Where was/were the murderer/s?
4. What happened to their own traces?
5. Who is pulling the strings of the investigation and why the participants of the search/investigation had to sign a 25 year prohibition to disclose information
--- End quote ---
1. Who is responsible for that brutal act ?
In some sense, one could say symbolically that the responsible is the voucher:
Igor Dyatlov has " a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI° Congress of the CPSU, the opening of which was scheduled for January 28, 1959.e from the leadership of the settlement-colony.
In Serov, Ivdel and Vizhay Dyatlov's group had exhibited its voucher - Note the difference with Blinov's group which did not show a voucher.
Thus the 9 hikers appeared as to be official (or semi official) representatives of the Soviet government in the eyes of :
a) - Hypothesis N°2 - A few foreign ex-zeks and patriots from countries suffering from Soviet oppression who had not yet been allowed (or able) to leave the Vizhay region.
b) - Hypothesis N°2-bis - A few Stalinist Russians opposed to the reforms which had become more pronounced since the XXth (1956) Congress of the Communist Party in 1956 who lived in the Vizhay region.
2. What was the motive ?
Indeed for historians, the period 1953-1964, (which is called the Khrushchev epoch or the Khrushchev thaw), is particularly complicated (and also not well known) because Khrushchev met opponents in all (Stalinist) strata of Russian society (Army, Gulag Administration, Nomenklatura, etc.). See by way of introduction:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160
It should not be forgotten that for military theorists a terrorist attack is a form of asymmetric warfare, with various motivations (revenge, intimidation, example, provocation, tactics ....) and consequences very variable and always difficult to predict.
DPI should be classified in the vast category of terrorist attacks in the broad sense. In any case, 61 years after the DPI compelled the current Russian authorities to make a fool of themselves with manifestly absurd statements.
Hypothesis N°2
External (international) opposition of patriots from countries in conflict with Russian and Soviet oppression who saw themselves as unfiltered warriors in a war that was not yet over.
Hypothesis N°2-bis
Internal Stalinist opposition coming from several Gulag leaders, and powerful camp commanders, who with Khrushchev's reforms were losing their power and privileges. These Stalinists also feared that the XXI° st (1959) Congress of the PCUS would be even more devastating for them (this was inaccurate).
because the XXI° st Congress of the PCUS had little influence on the desalinization.
3. Where was/were the murderer/s ?
Hypothesis N°2
Three ex-Zeks who lived and worked in the Vizhay region who grabbed this wonderful opportunity for them (since the route of the 9 hikers was approximately known in Ivdel) to succeed in a spectacular action.
It is hard to determine whether these ex-zeks were : Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Poles, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Romanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Koreans, Germans, Bulgarians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians... or from other countries ?
The Poles are well positioned because of Katyn (1940) and the Polish October (1956), followed by the pro-Soviet politics of Gomulka, which discouraged some Polish ex-zeks from returning to Poland.
There is also Maslennikov's sybilline allusion : Reasons for leaving...from the tent..."come out one by one, run (Caucasus)."
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=464.msg9152#msg9152
Hypothesis N°2-bis
Aleks Kandr proposes a complete and coherent explanation (but it is in Russian, which is hard for me to read). See
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
There was one commanditaire (client) that remained in Ivdel "which could be one of the leaders of the colony 64 at the SCh/349-Ivdellag" (USh/349 or SCh/349).
The commanditaire (client) had hired three mercenary killers who were guards (or former guards) of one of the Gulag camps. These former guards specialized in pursuing the few prisoners who escaped over the barbed wire. The high Soviet administration had naturally forbidden to entrust firearms to such guardian-killers, who were efficient but whose loyalty to the regime was not assured.
4. What happened to their own traces ?
• On February 26th, on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl as well as around the cedar, all traces had been erased by the wind, except for a few due to random effects (chance) which are intrinsic to Fluid Mechanics.
• In the Auspiya Valley the attackers (or murderers if you prefer) carefully followed the tracks of the hikers from North-2 to the tent.
• On February 2, 1959 the attackers first cut the tent before leaving. To get from the tent to North-2 the attackers carefully followed the same tracks (which had been marked by 12 skiers = 9 hikers + 3 attackers).
5. Who is pulling the strings of the investigation
(Why the participants of the search/investigation had to sign a 25 year prohibition to disclose information. ---> Read the explanations in the posts of WAB )
Khrushchev ---> Khrushchev's close collaborators in Moscow ---> In the Sverdlovsk region the KGB and the CPSU ... whatever the details, the main thing is to remember that the DPI had been a bitter failure for the KGB, which had been proved incapable of protecting the 9 hikers...
°°°°°°°
To be continued -works in progress - go to : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
--- End quote ---
This is a great explanation of the internal frictions in society that I have heard no one explain yet. Makes perfect sense to me and I would imagine any conflict veteran that might be reading.
varuna:
hello all
This analysis is quite accurate - ie the possible groups that wanted to do take à revenge .
But i do not believe in a possibility like that in a so well controled country at this moment of history .
If it was some lind of manifestation like a " manifestation" who had heard about the goals of the group ... In history since hte 19 ) century it had worked this way .
And now more .
surely a service official or semi or with no clear orders made a real mess . this os also frequent
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