Theories Discussion > Murdered

Army Tactician - Definitely Ambush, potential events

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Per Inge Oestmoen:

--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on October 20, 2021, 03:06:43 PM ---

--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on October 19, 2021, 07:57:54 AM ---                Reply #18
.......................
The KGB office workers were highly intelligent office workers. However, KGB was much more than their office workers.
The KGB special forces operators were probably the most select, intelligent, skilled and merciless killers and the most competent close combat specialists in all of human history. They were perfectly capable of orchestrating "accidents," "natural deaths" or "suicides" in numerous ways - and they did. It was their specialty.

--- End quote ---

I completely agree with this statement.

The KGB was created by Khrushchev on March 13, 1954, so one year after the death of Stalin, to replace the NKVD.
In 1959 it is a kind of apogee of the regime of Khrushchev. The KGB is at the disposal of Khrushchev to make triumph his politics of de-Stalinization.

The KGB was an official agency of a great country whose communist ideology hoped to become a model for all mankind.
The KGB was not a bunch of bloodthirsty gangsters working in a disorderly and anarchic way

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB

Let's not forget that during Khrushchev's thaw (1953-1964) there were fewer arbitrary condemnations and massive (and badly controlled) releases of Zeks from Gulag camps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

Apart from espionage, one of the many missions of the KGB was to fight external enemies and internal opponents by all means and also to protect the dignitaries of the regime and the good Soviet citizens.

--->   highly intelligent
It was much simpler to arrest the hikers on their return or before they left, then charge them and sentence them to death for treason or other pretexts.

Communist regimes are also known for more perverse methods. After undergoing a kind of brainwashing, the characters to be eliminated accused themselves of the worst imaginary crimes.
This is the theme of the novel "Darkness at Noon" by the British novelist Arthur Koestler.

°°°°°°°°°
What we know about the DPI does not match the KGB's killing methods.

--->   perfectly capable of orchestrating
If the death of the hikers was staged to look like a natural accident, then it was poorly staged.
Indeed, more than 60 years later, there is no certainty and the discussions continue all over the world.
It would have been easy to stage a death to make the illusion of a natural death obvious enough so that any other suspicion would be ridiculous.

For example, find the hikers all drowned, trapped under the broken ice of a river. Or all freezing to death, crammed into the location of the completely destroyed tent.

If this is the way of terrorism, it is to show or make clear that opponents or traitors are always caught and punished.
 Then there should be material and visible evidence of a voluntary execution. For example, traces of rifle bullets.

On the contrary, to make the bodies disappear entirely would have left a disturbing mystery and allowed a lot of accusatory suppositions.

°°°°°°°°°
 What I am absolutely convinced of (this is perhaps the central point of the discussion on the responsibility of the KGB) is that even if the hikers had seen a top secret military test, they could not have deduced from it considerable and sensitive information obliging to be silenced by killing them on the field.

The 8 students or former students of UPI seem to have been exemplary Soviet citizens.
Zolotaryov was a decorated veteran of the Great Patriotic War, and nothing serious could be blamed on him, even though he subsequently led a somewhat disordered independent life. 
It is also possible that Zolotaryov had various relations with the KGB, in the kind of occasional informant.

It would be surprising if these nine people, for whom nothing could be reproached politically, at least on the surface, could represent a sufficiently important danger to require their immediate elimination.

If they are guilty of something that requires death, it is necessary first to make sure that there are no possible accomplices and also to find out how these 9 apparently blameless people were influenced in a harmful way (indispensable investigations among relations, in families, at the UPI ... etc.)

For an important and official service like the KGB, to kill the 9 hikers without interrogating them for months, with adequate means, would have been a huge mistake.
Because the dead do not speak and will never speak again.

As an illustration, Georg Elser, the author of the failed attempt to kill Hitler, on November 8, 1939, in Munich, was carefully kept alive for long interrogations.

  Hitler issued an order to Heydrich: 'I would like to know what kind of man this Elser is. We must be able to classify him somehow. Report back to me on this. And furthermore,  use all means to get this criminal to talk.   Have him hypnotized, give him drugs; make use of everything of this nature our scientists have tried.   I want to know who the instigators are. I want to know who is behind this.'  

--- End quote ---

Dear Jean Daniel Reuss,

Thank you for your reply. We are in full and complete agreement about the intelligence, skill and sophistication of the KGB.

However, there are some details where I would like to clarify:

- The Soviet leadership paid lip service to Marxist ideology, which developed into a secular religion. However, the foundation of the Soviet rulers (or czars) from the days of the incredibly intelligent Lenin and Stalin was always power politics. The Cheka, the NKVD and the KGB were from the start built up to be the "sword and shield" of the Soviet Union - securing the state against all real and potential opposition. Their practice reflected the cold, merciless intelligence of Lenin the Initiator, Stalin the Administrator and Trotsky the Agitator. Power, not idealism, was the driving force of the Soviet Union from the very start. In fact, the Soviet Union was in many ways the successor of the Mongol empire. The student of history will find perhaps the best description of the nature of the Soviet state in Tibor Szamuely's great work "The Russian Tradition." This book has been translated into English, but is as far as I know only available in libraries since it is out of print at the time of this writing in December 2021. The Soviet Union was never a "marxist" or Communist state since such a thing is a self-contradiction.

- Jean Daniel Reuss wrote: "It was much simpler to arrest the hikers on their return or before they left, then charge them and sentence them to death for treason or other pretexts."

Comment: No. First; these nine students were resourceful people who belonged to families in the higher strata in Soviet society. They could not be accused of anything. There was no indication whatsoever that any of them had shown any sign of disloyalty to the State. All these factors mean that if the students had been charged with some fictitious acts of treason and executed openly, their resourceful families and friends would have raised a true hell and created political unrest. The same would have happened if the KGB had made the nine students disappear: Their families and friends would have understood that they had been murdered. So the supremely skilled KGB would never, ever be so stupid.

- Jean Daniel Reuss wrote further: "What we know about the DPI does not match the KGB's killing methods. If the death of the hikers was staged to look like a natural accident, then it was poorly staged. Indeed, more than 60 years later, there is no certainty and the discussions continue all over the world. It would have been easy to stage a death to make the illusion of a natural death obvious enough so that any other suspicion would be ridiculous. For example, find the hikers all drowned, trapped under the broken ice of a river. Or all freezing to death, crammed into the location of the completely destroyed tent."

Comment: What we know about the KGB, harmonizes with what happened at the Dyatlov Pass in the fateful winter night of February 2, 1959. The fact that many people refuse to understand that the nine unfortunates were killed in spite of overwhelming forensic evidence which is only consistent with human attack with lethal intent, testifies to the skill of the perpetrators. If we take a close look at what we know, we will see that the nine victims must have been forced out from their tent in the late evening or night, and they were improperly dressed for winter conditions. This would have resulted in rapid death, which is what the attackers must have planned and expected. However, if we check with the weather data at the nearby weather stations we will see that this very night there was a sudden and unexpected drop in temperature meaning that the temperature was probably no lower than -15 degrees below. For this reason, the young, physically strong students did not freeze to death as planned, and had to be hunted down. For this reason, the unmistakable injuries could be detected. It is telling that the local police was ordered by the government agencies in Moscow to close down the investigation with the conclusion that it was a mere accident. However, the investigator Ivanov gave a strong hint in Aesopean language when he referred to "an irresistible force" which had caused the death of the nine. We know very well what "irresistible force" which was supremely skilled in orchestrating "natural deaths", "accidents" and mysterious illnesses that struck inexplicably when something was at stake.

It is also illustrative to look at what happened to the Mansi in the area in the aftermath of the death of the Dyatlov group. The Mansi were in the area, and did certainly either witness the arrival of the killing squad or the bodies after the fact. The very intelligent method of silencing them also tells its tale: The Mansi were told that they were under suspicion, and several of their members were briefly subjected to interrogation. Very soon came the message that a seamstress had found that the tent had been cut from the inside, and that the Mansi were no longer suspects because they would then not have cut the tent from the inside if they had attacked. Needless to say, there never was any scientific report of any examination of the tent, just a statement that a certain seamstress had given her opinion and that the Mansi were no longer suspected.

The unspoken message to the Mansi was as clear as it was impressively brilliant in its merciless subtlety: "We let you off the hook now, but if anyone among you ever say a word about what you have observed, we are perfectly capable of inventing the necessary evidence against you." Such tactics is used by extremely competent people, and the Mansi quickly understood that a grim fate would befall them if they ever said anything.

So, yes, the pattern is strongly suggestive of KGB involvement. We can never know for sure, but judging from all the signs and evidence we have the nine fell victim to a carefully prepared murderous attack which partly failed because of a sudden unexpected rise in temperature during the fateful night.

Jean Daniel Reuss wrote further: "What I am absolutely convinced of (this is perhaps the central point of the discussion on the responsibility of the KGB) is that even if the hikers had seen a top secret military test, they could not have deduced from it considerable and sensitive information obliging to be silenced by killing them on the field. The 8 students or former students of UPI seem to have been exemplary Soviet citizens. Zolotaryov was a decorated veteran of the Great Patriotic War, and nothing serious could be blamed on him, even though he subsequently led a somewhat disordered independent life. It is also possible that Zolotaryov had various relations with the KGB, in the kind of occasional informant. It would be surprising if these nine people, for whom nothing could be reproached politically, at least on the surface, could represent a sufficiently important danger to require their immediate elimination. If they are guilty of something that requires death, it is necessary first to make sure that there are no possible accomplices and also to find out how these 9 apparently blameless people were influenced in a harmful way (indispensable investigations among relations, in families, at the UPI ... etc.) For an important and official service like the KGB, to kill the 9 hikers without interrogating them for months, with adequate means, would have been a huge mistake. Because the dead do not speak and will never speak again."

Comment: The nine students were loyal Soviet citizens. They had committed no crime. Even though they (in all probability) did witness some top secret experiment or procedure, they were completely innocent and even if they understood what they observed they did not actually know more than the existence of these secret procedures. There was no need to interrogate them, because they had nothing to tell. No kind of pharmacological influence or psychological torture, no matter how sophisticated, could extract any information from the students, because they had none. They had merely observed something they were not supposed to know about. The Soviet state could not afford to take the risk that some of the students would tell a friend, a future lover, spouse or child.

The dead do not speak, and therefore the nine students who were unfortunate enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time had to be silenced precisely to ensure that they would never speak.

It is by the way not entirely true that the dead to not speak. The bodies, and the damage done to them, do speak to us and tell part of the tale. The injuries on the bodies of the nine, only consistent with a human attack, prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were murdered. All of them.

EBE:
I have no doubts that the students were killed, as you said, forensic evidence is overwhelming. I really don't understand why DPI is still considered to be a mystery. Some people probably need to live in a fantasy world and invent theories like ultrasound, UFO, menk, falling tree etc.

The only mystery is who killed them and why. This is where I don't completely agree with your suggestion that they have observed some secret test, then were left to die and as they were strong and the temperature was not so low, they had to be killed.

The reason for my doubts is the severe burns of Krivonishenko's left leg. He did not get charred toe, bursting skin and especially trousers burned up to the level of his knee/thigh by trying to warm up his feet.

Also, I want to point out that the students must have known that fire is their only option if they want to survive, especially if they were insufficiently dressed. No one (and particularly not with their experience) would put any energy to build a snow den when there is plenty of firewood of excellent quality (birch, dead wood, birch bark and dangling moss as fire starters..). If they would be acting freely, they would make really big fire as soon as possible. There would be a pile of wood prepared next to the fire, many small remains of half-burned twigs around the fire etc. All we see is a remains of small fire, and it's placement and remains indicate that it was not lit in emergency.

I think that the fire was not lit/used by students, but by someone else for a different purpose or purposes, and the only connection between the fire and the students are severe burns on Krivonishenko's leg and traces of burns on Doroshenko's head. I would also like to point out that Krivonisenko's burns were not caused by (even prolonged) contact with the stove, because his leg was burned from multiple sides.

Also, I would like to point out that one of the famous searchers (Askinadzi or Sharavin, I am not sure..) stated in the TV program "Na samom dele" on a russian TV that local Mansi guy (Sembindalov) saw a group of soldiers on narrow skis passing near his camp at the end of January 1959. It is also clear from finding items that did not belong to the students that the Cedar area was used by other people before and after the DPI, it is probably one of the forest glades suitable for camping, showed to Igor Dyatlov by the leader of Ivdellag..

sarapuk:
The forensic evidence is not overwhelming. Its far from overwhelming. If anything its underwhelming.

EBE:

--- Quote from: sarapuk on December 26, 2021, 04:47:54 PM ---The forensic evidence is not overwhelming. Its far from overwhelming. If anything its underwhelming.

--- End quote ---

Underwhelming for you, overwhelming for me grin1.

sarapuk:

--- Quote from: EBE on December 28, 2021, 12:56:38 AM ---
--- Quote from: sarapuk on December 26, 2021, 04:47:54 PM ---The forensic evidence is not overwhelming. Its far from overwhelming. If anything its underwhelming.

--- End quote ---

Underwhelming for you, overwhelming for me grin1.

--- End quote ---

Have you read all the Case Files  ?

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