Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: beanie07 on August 22, 2018, 11:24:21 AM
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I have this proposition regarding the sequence of events:
1. As Zolotaryov and Thibeaux were best dressed (the only 2 with boots), they were probably outside of the tent just before the fateful event occurred
2. "Something" (unknown) then compelled the entire group to exit the tent hastily
3. The group decided to head for the forest away from this "something"
4. At the forest, attempts to create fire was done and the climbing of tree was also done (perhaps to check on that "something's" location around the tent)
5. As both Yuri's were least equipped for the cold outside, they succumbed to the cold and perished
6. The remaining group (all 7 of them) then took the clothing from both Yuris and decided to move deeper into the forest and build a shelter (because their current location offered no protection from the cold) and it wasn't safe yet to return to the tent
7. After the den was built, it was also when a "2nd something" (also unknown) occurred.
8. This "2nd something" was responsible for all the injuries sustained by the 7 (fractured ribs, skulls, deformed neck etc and possibly even accounting for evidence of some fighting)
9. The group of 3 (Slobodin, Igor, Zina) managed to escape and they decided to head back to the tent (regardless of the initial dangers posed by the "1st something")
10. The group of 4 (Dubinina, Kolevatov, Thibeaux, Zoloraryov) didn't make it from their injuries, while the group of 3 succumbed to the cold on their way back to the tent.
Most of the sequences put forward says the group split up after both Yuri's died, but it doesn't seem to explain why the group would split up, or also why there were injuries found on Igor and Slobodin.
The detail about Igor and Kolevatov being found with their jackets unfastened could be that they were in a slightly relaxed condition at the den until the "2nd something" occurred suddenly.
Ps: Did I miss anything?
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The thing that is missing is the thing that would obviously explain everything. And that thing is Q = Why did they leave the tent. In those conditions it must have been something extraordinary to make them do that.
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Was thinking we could break down the whole event into 3 questions to ponder:
1. What caused the group to leave the tent?
2. What caused the injuries (severe and minor) to the group?
3. What is the sequence of events that could reconcile all the evidences found so far?
Many approached questions 1 and 2 first but the theories put forward could not satisfyingly keep the plot consistent.
So perhaps we could do some reverse-engineering by coming up with the sequence of events 1st, so it can better eliminate/pinpoint which theory explains why they leave the tent, what caused the injuries?
Considering the injuries for the group of 3 (possibility of fist fight, fractured skull etc), isn't it likely those were sustained in a same event together with the group of 4?
And thus, these 2 groups were either
1. fighting each other or
2. fighting something (or experiencing a fatal accident) together?
which leads us to the thought that the group of 3 and 4 were actually together (rather than separated when the dire event happened).
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Might be useful to break it down into key areas ie THE TENT. THE FOOTPRINTS. THE FIRE. THE TREE. THE LOCATION OF THE BODIES. THE DEN if it was a den. It still looks like the event began with THE TENT.
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I like where this is going. Keep going.
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Well its possible that the group tried to make a camp place near the tree line before moving up the slope to where they pitched the tent. I say possible, but it still looks like the group pitched the tent then left the tent for the tree line then started a fire then tried to make some kind of den.
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According to the diary of Zinaida Kolmogorova dated 30.1.59
[[ We go on Auspiya cold (ayserm).
Mansi trail ended.
Pine forest.
There was sun in the morning, now is cold (ayserm).
All day long we walked along Auspiya.
Will spend the night on a Mansi trail.
Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today.
Burned mittens and Yurkin's second sweatshirt.
He cursed a lot.
Today, probably, we will build a storage. ]]
So they took turns to keep watch at night ! ? But owing to the very low temperatures, etc, its unlikely that they kept watch outside of the tent.
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The general feeling is that after the group left the Tent they went downhill to the treeline. Things happened in this treeline area and 3 of the group then made there way back uphill to the Tent. But what if that is not the case , what if those 3 were going downhill when they met there demise ! ?
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1. As Zolotaryov and Thibeaux were best dressed (the only 2 with boots), they were probably outside of the tent just before the fateful event occurred
2. "Something" (unknown) then compelled the entire group to exit the tent hastily
3. The group decided to head for the forest away from this "something"
and left a torch halfway down to assist their return.
4. At the forest, attempts to create fire was done and the climbing of tree was also done (perhaps to check on that "something's" location around the tent)
or the cedar branches provided the best firewood.
5. As both Yuri's were least equipped for the cold outside, they succumbed to the cold and perished
No i think a good case can be made that Doroshenko died of NO2 poisoning, see my thread on Nitrogen dioxide, Krivonischenko may have fallen from the cedar and burnt his leg in the fire whilst concussed. Best guess is that he died from the shock of extreme pain, the piece of skin bitten off his hand was found still in his mouth
6. The remaining group (all 7 of them) then took the clothing from both Yuris and decided to move deeper into the forest and build a shelter (because their current location offered no protection from the cold) and it wasn't safe yet to return to the tent
No i think the clothing was removed later when the ravine four were injured and still alive. This explains why they were turned later.
7. After the den was built, it was also when a "2nd something" (also unknown) occurred.
It's possible that they discovered a mansi hunting den, whatever the "only four seats" is curious. It's possible that Semyon advised that a max of 4 people was good practice and they were building another one nearby which was never found. This explains how the returning three suffered less injury.
8. This "2nd something" was responsible for all the injuries sustained by the 7 (fractured ribs, skulls, deformed neck etc and possibly even accounting for evidence of some fighting)
9. The group of 3 (Slobodin, Igor, Zina) managed to escape and they decided to head back to the tent (regardless of the initial dangers posed by the "1st something")
10. The group of 4 (Dubinina, Kolevatov, Thibeaux, Zoloraryov) didn't make it from their injuries, while the group of 3 succumbed to the cold on their way back to the tent.
Or the returning three succumbed to something else and the cold finished them off, microwave energy disrupts the nervous system, gas poisoning had reduced their cardio vascular capabilities. Slobodin had been close enough to the "rav4 event" to be dying of internal bleeding but no chest fractures. Imo this strengthens the barotrauma theory. My favourite theory is after the event Kolmogorova and Slobodin tried to get back to the tent for supplies, warm clothing etc whilst Dyatlov stayed with the rav4. They never returned and he died of hypothermia as indicated by a full bladder.
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That sequence of events is pure speculation. It does not prove in any way whatsoever that those 3 were heading up and not down when they met their demise. I could speculate that they fought with someone or something on the way down the slope while the others in the group made their escape. The 3 on the slope had injuries consistent with fighting. Also one particular type of injury was very severe and it is highly unlikely that someone could walk or even crawl all the way from the tree line to where they were found with such an injury. Such injuries usually knock people out and even kill them. Also we can not say from the way all the group was dressed how they came to be dressed that way when they were found.
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There's not a lot written about the DPI that isn't anything other than pure speculation. That's the fun.
I'd disagree over - "The 3 on the slope had injuries consistent with fighting.".
If the severe injury you refer to is Rustem's internal bleeding then i don't see it as preventing mobility.
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Yes speculation is unfortunately what we have to deal with because of the lack of real hard evidence. Those head injuries of Rustem Slobodin were serious injuries. I know there is some debate about just how it would have affected his ability to move, if indeed he could move after such injury, and this is obviously important as far as the sequence of events is concerned. Similarly with the contention that those injuries those 3 suffered were or could have been caused by fighting.
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Rustem's cap is an interesting feature. He's found face down with his cap placed correctly on top of his head. This after receiving some form of impact on each side of the head which would have clearly knocked his cap off. It tends to point to "a violent event" and then recovery from it - the mundane placing of the cap back on his head by him or someone else (perhaps Zina). So this mundane act tells us something about what could not have taken place. Imo it rules out that he suffered the injuries where he was found, they happened elsewhere and then the situation normalised again.
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Its very interesting discussing such injuries. Iam sure that even medical experts find the Dyatlov Mystery a tough challenge to say the least. Rustem Slobodin was found face down on the ground / snow, with various injuries, and we want to know how he got into that position. Well by all accounts the head injuries were so severe that he would have been knocked unconscious immediately. Also that he would most likely have froze to death before coming out of unconsciousness. Thats assuming that the injuries to the head hadnt already killed him. Has for the headware that he was wearing, was it an hat that was fastened in some way to the jacket or was it the hood of a jacket ! ? If it was a loose hat then its still possible that it could have remained on his head even after the injuries. Obviously at this stage of investigation we dont know what caused the injuries. Note ; Rustem's body was the only one with icy bed under from the hardening of the thawing snow.
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This is the cap as he was found -
(https://preview.ibb.co/iSLSvf/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-429.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bs6d1L)
and here's him wearing i earlier -
(https://preview.ibb.co/kQLcvf/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-25.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bYvAFf)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hsJfFf/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-26.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bTDEaf)
So that's my point, he has received some violent event(s) to both sides of the head, fallen face down in the snow but the cap stayed in place? Seems extremely unlikely. Hence my comment that it somehow hints at a "return to normal" post the violent event.
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Yes it does look like a cap on the body of Rustem as he was found and it may be the same cap as in the other photos. Yes its a good point that the hat remained on his head despite the obvious violent injuries. But I say we need to think carefully about what actually caused those head injuries, ie, a fall from a height of some kind may well displace a cap, or falling over while going downhill and hitting the head may well displace a cap. And a fight of some kind where there is a lot of physical contact may well displace a cap. But what if the violence to the head was quick and concentrated, an overwhelming force against which there was no defence whatsoever. Then such a force may not displace a cap.
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Looks like the same cap, passing the first photo through some filters you can see the the same upturned fold along the sides and the back. Certainly worn in the same style. It's unlikely he carried spares :)
But i don't contend that the hat stayed on his head, my theory is that he put it back on his head after the violent event in the ravine and began the return journey.
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In his testimony, which has recently been made available here, Axelrod observes that the presence of this hat on Rustem's head is also evidence for rather mild wind in the night of the incident. Otherwise it would be blown off and gone he argues. Another tiny piece of the puzzle...
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The wind dropping could explain the decision to return to the tent.
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Is it really likely to expect that Rustem Slobodin would make it that far after a very severe injury at the Ravine ! ? And as for wind, well we dont know what the weather conditions were at that time, and any way he may have had his hood up over his head.
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I've been thinking lately that maybe the event that caused the nine to evacuate the tent and the event that caused the injuries to those later found in the ravine was in fact, the same event.
The injuries to Lyudamilla in particular are described in the autopsy reports as being possibly caused by "an impact of great force".
1. Perhaps an ice sheet of decent size had slammed into the side of the tent, the sleeping bodies of those closest to the impact absorb the brunt of the force and the tent collapses.
2. After being hit with such a sheet the awakened and startled hikers rush to get their injured friends out and away from the danger zone. Carrying/ helping them down the hill to the safety of the woods.
3. The group eventually arrives at the woods and immediately sets to work on a fire. They begin cutting branches to feed their tiny fire but it's no use, it is not enough to keep them warm. Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko sadly both succumb to the cold. Their friends frantically try to resuscitate them, pushing on their chests vigorously but to no avail.
4. The little fire is not enough and it is abandoned for the relative safety of a ravine a little further into the woods. Igor, Zina, Slobodin and Kolevatov move the 3 injured there after taking what clothes they could off of Doroshenko and Krivonischenko and distributing them out among themselves.
5. At the ravine, utterly exhausted and and in a near hopeless situation, Igor, Zina and Slobodin bravely elect to make a suicide expedition back to the tent to see what resources they can bring back. Kolevatov stays behind with the injured. He sets to work on a small den, lays out a few sticks and pieces of cloth for his injured friends to lay on and get off of the frozen ground.
5. Meanwhile on the venture back to the tent, Igor has fallen behind the group, succumbing to the cold. Fighting to the end he grabs a nearby branch to perhaps hold him upright but it is no use, he succumbs to the cold. Now delirious from the freezing temperatures, Slobodin is the next to fall, hands completely frozen and body totally exhausted he falls down a few times hitting his face into the ground but still trying his best to power through and make it back to the tent. He falls one last time striking his head on a rock and is knocked out.
6. Zina is the last one left from the group of 3. She bravely pushes on and makes it the closest to the tent but this last impossible task in a night of impossible tasks is too much and she too collapses onto the ground where the cold puts her to sleep.
7. Back at the ravine, Kolevatov struggles to move his friends one by one into the den he has created, but he too is at the end of his limits and is surrendering to the cold. In the midst of carrying his comrade Zolotaryov into the den, he collapses with his arms still around Zolotaryov.
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I think its being generally accepted now that its highly unlikely that any type of avalanche occurred at the Tent let alone one of such force that would have caused the very serious injuries to many of the group.
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I don't think it really requires a super gargantuan amount of force to break ribs. Imagine I roll something even as small as a cinder block down a hill and you have to bear the brunt of the force with your ribs. I think a small sheet of ice breaking free from further up the peak and slamming into and collapsing the tent is fairly reasonable and explains the drastic need for an escape (to avoid what they could have thought was just the beginning of a much larger avalanche) and it would explain the very avalanche like injuries.
Panic in an extremely hostile environment led to their demise.
The real questions are;
1.What caused the group to panic and leave the tent so ill prepared.
2.What caused the injuries to the 3 people later found in the ravine.
Compared to yetis, rocket testing, gravity fluctuations, escaped convicts, mushrooms etc, I think the small avalanche theory explains both of these questions with the fewest possible assumptions being made.
I welcome a full debunking, God knows it wouldn't be the first time I've changed my opinion on what happened. lmao
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I have been looking at what as been said about the serious injuries that many of the Dyatlov Group suffered, noting in particular what medical people have said about such injuries. The particular rib injuries on some of the bodies were caused by an extreme force. Note ; there are various types of rib injuries. Extreme force rules out avalanche of the sort that some investigators have suggested.
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How do we link up those key areas ! ? THE TENT. THE FOOTSTEPS. THE FIRE. THE TREE. THE LOCATION OF THE BODIES. THE DEN if it was a den.
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Unfortunately I have passed this theme earlier, but I want to tell that have very correctly made beanie07 when it has started to systematise questions and to define sequence of actions. Only it is necessary to do it methodically then it is possible to receive a good picture of this incident. Also it is necessary to filter all assumptions and guesses through the filter of practice and conditions of a concrete place. And to consider similar conditions. Only then it will be possible to promote in understanding of that has
I have this proposition regarding the sequence of events:
1. As Zolotaryov and Thibeaux were best dressed (the only 2 with boots), they were probably outside of the tent just before the fateful event occurred
It is one of possible events. There is one more assumption: they were people on duty. Their problem was what to make all works outside of tent if they be required. From practice of similar travel at that time I can tell that they should settle down in tent with edge, therefore they have been dressed better other people. And if they have to get out operatively outside they and did not remove footwear. Probability this both situations is equal 50 %.
2. "Something" (unknown) then compelled the entire group to exit the tent hastily
It should be investigated in other theme. That it is a lot of these in section ….
3. The group decided to head for the forest away from this "something"
If this tell more precisely, the group has hastily left this place downhill and in a wind direction. All it well coincides. They did not have a possibility (and time!) on what acceptance that of decisions, therefore they did not take the most necessary that it was necessary for them for this purpose what to survive below. It is necessary to add that the difference in time between the first left tent and the last was very small. It follows from this that anybody from them did not take any necessary thing which could is further than length of a hand.
4. At the forest, attempts to create fire was done and the climbing of tree was also done (perhaps to check on that "something's" location around the tent)
On a tree there was an ascension only because there there was unique fire wood suitable for kindling. It is necessary to add what to see from a tree it was very difficult, therefore they hardly had it in a kind. The arrangement of the broken branches of a tree is that that it is the unique party on which they could get on a tree. This cedar has an inclination aside opposite from a direction on tent. It so has coincided in the nature. Therefore to think that they got on a tree so what to look at tent not is correctly. There practically it is visible nothing even in the afternoon. Especially if to understand that could not know an exact place where there is a tent. It is not possible completely at night.
5. As both Yuri's were least equipped for the cold outside, they succumbed to the cold and perished
Jura 1 and Jura 2 have come on this place dressed just as the group most part. From them then who that has taken off clothes and has transferred to a flooring. I have the well-founded assumption that it there could be only Alexander Kolevatov. It also has laid both of them behind a cedar as it is visible on a photo …
6. The remaining group (all 7 of them) then took the clothing from both Yuris and decided to move deeper into the forest and build a shelter (because their current location offered no protection from the cold) and it wasn't safe yet to return to the tent
1.There are no signs or the facts that the fire had who that another, except Jura 1 + 2 and one more person who their section and has laid Jura.
2.Any refuge there it was impossible to construct. For this purpose there are no conditions.
3.Any refuge in the presence of clothes in which all of them have been found them could not rescue. The powerful source of heat - a fire was necessary to them. Is better them it was necessary to have two - from the different parties, differently it should to turn constantly, and it was almost impossible, because it is difficult.
4.Come back to tent they could not, it is impossible, because they did not know, where it precisely is. It is still very important that above on a slope there was a wind it towards, therefore they could not see tent further than for 3 … 5 metrs (10 … 15 foots). To find tent with such accuracy it is impossible in their conditions. It is all occurred at night (in a night-time).
7. After the den was built, it was also when a "2nd something" (also unknown) occurred.
It is not necessary to think out superfluous events. If people have appeared in such clothes in such conditions the bad outcome is a question of duration of time. At to = -20C (-4F) and temperature of a surface of a body (on the average) to = +22С (71F) deficiency of heat makes approximately 350 … 400 Watt. To compensate such losses it is possible only a hard work, but it is impossible to make long time. The natural (metabolic) thermal emission in rest makes 50 … 70 Watt, it is required to fill the rest in the form of physical activity. Their clothes at большей make group parts 1 CLO on a thermal protection. And for this purpose that it would be possible not to move at such temperature of air it is required approximately 4 … 5 CLO.
8. This "2nd something" was responsible for all the injuries sustained by the 7 (fractured ribs, skulls, deformed neck etc and possibly even accounting for evidence of some fighting)
All traumas have been received by way of blow at falling. I already wrote earlier that at me article (in Russian) about these traumas and possible places where they have received them is written. While I cannot make transfer (for technical reasons). Therefore I asked whom that to try to translate by Google and to note those places which it is necessary to translate more professionally, and what places can be excluded. Then I would make other part of work, so quickly as soon as it will be possible.
For reception of these traumas in conditions in which there was Dyatlov group on an slop "2nd something" is not required any additional.
9. The group of 3 (Slobodin, Igor, Zina) managed to escape and they decided to head back to the tent (regardless of the initial dangers posed by the "1st something")
There are no facts and substantiations what to consider that «Group 3 (Slobodin, Igor, Zina)» came back to tent. Even if not to consider that it is technically impossible. On the contrary, the set of subjects at Zina and Rustem says that at a fire they were not. There are 50 % of probability that Igor could descend to a fire, but it too only the assumption. As there are no facts and acknowledgement to it. Otherwise they already would use these subjects or would transfer to another at whom they were not. Besides, their clothes do not correspond to that they were going to go there. The disorder of people on a slope as says that it not returning, but only a way to a fire. That trauma which is at Rustem would not allow it to pass more than 30 … 50 metres (30 … 150 foots) from that place where it has received it.
10. The group of 4 (Dubinina, Kolevatov, Thibeaux, Zoloraryov) didn't make it from their injuries, while the group of 3 succumbed to the cold on their way back to the tent.
The group 4 (Dubinina, Kolevatov, Thibeaux, Zolotaryov) in general operated separately from the others. Nothing specifies that they as that contacted the others. Till that time when Alexander Kolevatov descended to a fire and has brought a part of things to a flooring. At this time the others could not move any more as they were already strongly wounded.
In «group 3» too all very much reminds that they operated everyone separately. Who could not that of the others to leave without the aid of Rustem, for example. Or they could not leave Zina.
Most of the sequences put forward says the group split up after both Yuri's died, but it doesn't seem to explain why the group would split up, or also why there were injuries found on Igor and Slobodin.
It is quite possible to explain a trauma of Rustem Slobodin. As it is found directly there where it is very easy for receiving. And Igor had so insignificant wounds that they are characteristic for such travel. Especially if go on such slope in the dark.
The detail about Igor and Kolevatov being found with their jackets unfastened could be that they were in a slightly relaxed condition at the den until the "2nd something" occurred suddenly.
It is not so. Igor has lost possibility to go when there has come fatigue strength at intensive movement. If it moved quickly and hard (the big level of a thermal emission) he has not had time to clasp that it, for the present there were forces for this purpose. All is very similar to such course of events.
Alexander Kolevatov should transfer people with traumas in a fire direction, therefore too it had a hard work. Therefore not clasped jacket is not what that an especial sign in such situation.
Ps: Did I miss anything?
Unfortunately has passed very many. It is all there are details (a lot of small and average), but they are very important for understanding of sequence of events.
Later I will try to write about them in detail
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Was thinking we could break down the whole event into 3 questions to ponder:
1. What caused the group to leave the tent?
It should be considered in other theme. There there are many versions of this reason. But each reason should be well proved and not contradict 3 components:
1.To nature Laws.
2.To Realities of time of the end of 50th years of the XX-th century.
3.To Common sense (that is have rigid relationships of cause and effect)
2. What caused the injuries (severe and minor) to the group?
Question it is very easy answer. Anything especial that they have been received at circulation on that slope in the dark is not present. I can easily show it directly on the most this slope, in the winter, at any time. That I (itself) observed any more once times.
3. What is the sequence of events that could reconcile all the evidences found so far?
The answer to this question demands answer many concrete smaller questions. Only the system is necessary, differently very easily it will be possible to get confused in elementary concepts.
Many approached questions 1 and 2 first but the theories put forward could not satisfyingly keep the plot consistent.
So perhaps we could do some reverse-engineering by coming up with the sequence of events 1st, so it can better eliminate/pinpoint which theory explains why they leave the tent, what caused the injuries?
Probably you at all do not represent concrete conditions of that place in the winter if start to speak about «fisticuffs possibility». I very much want to look, as you could make it in those conditions in the winter.
It is necessary to consider in the beginning all natural possibilities but only then to think out that that another. Another there is not real for the natural reasons
Considering the injuries for the group of 3 (possibility of fist fight, fractured skull etc), isn't it likely those were sustained in a same event together with the group of 4?
And thus, these 2 groups were either
1. fighting each other or
2. fighting something (or experiencing a fatal accident) together?
which leads us to the thought that the group of 3 and 4 were actually together (rather than separated when the dire event happened).
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According to the diary of Zinaida Kolmogorova dated 30.1.59
[[ We go on Auspiya cold (ayserm).
Mansi trail ended.
Pine forest.
There was sun in the morning, now is cold (ayserm).
All day long we walked along Auspiya.
Will spend the night on a Mansi trail.
Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today.
Burned mittens and Yurkin's second sweatshirt.
He cursed a lot.
Today, probably, we will build a storage. ]]
So they took turns to keep watch at night ! ? But owing to the very low temperatures, etc, its unlikely that they kept watch outside of the tent.
I think that you became a victim of wrong transfer or wrong understanding of this term. The term «keep watch» means that the person should be at night to (sit) in tent at an oven (keep watch = sit by iron stove) and to put fire wood there after a while. And as to watch that the tent would not light up under different conditions. Usually such watch lasts 1 hour or 1 hour and a half. Depending on duration of night time and quantity the person in group. In intervals between закладыванием fire wood very often write diaries, those who is engaged in it.
For example, Zina wrote it to time of the watch at night. There that was one day earlier and plans next day is written.
...............................
For today at me time when I can write in a forum already has terminated, the rest will be after. If there are what concrete questions, and will try to answer first of all. bow7
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Yes its tricky work trying to link it all together. Any way. for now, I understand that 2 people would be on watch at night and sat in the tent presumably near the entrance / exit. They were likely to be better dressed than the others who were presumably getting to sleep. But those 2 on watch would also have needed to get some sleep as well. Also I understand that on that fateful night they had no fire to watch in the tent because one wasnt lit. Who were those 2 people supposed to be on watch on that fateful night ! ?
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Yes its tricky work trying to link it all together. Any way. for now, I understand that 2 people would be on watch at night and sat in the tent presumably near the entrance / exit. They were likely to be better dressed than the others who were presumably getting to sleep. But those 2 on watch would also have needed to get some sleep as well. Also I understand that on that fateful night they had no fire to watch in the tent because one wasnt lit. Who were those 2 people supposed to be on watch on that fateful night ! ?
In this point in question the answer (as at us speak) lies on surface. If in the end of events 2 persons (Nikolay Tibo and Simeon Zolotaryov) have been dressed how all put on nature in such conditions, and the others how it was possible to put on for spending the night in tent in concrete conditions these two persons and were persons on duty. They should not be all time for the nature, usually such persons on duty stack (they keep within! grin1) from tent sides. There are the coldest ends, therefore they are dressed much better others.
That it was necessary to do out of tent entered into duties "these ". For example, отгребать snow which will throw a wind to rise the first in the morning, to bring snow pieces (if it is necessary to prepare water). To watch time, and to awake group when already it is time to rise from a dream. Even to do that is required to transfer that that of other end of tent to the person who lies covered in "the sleeping device".
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Interesting. And those 2 people had some of the worst injuries of the group. And one of them had a camera on a cord around their neck, and were found with a pen in one hand and a notepad in the other hand.
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Interesting. And those 2 people had some of the worst injuries of the group.
It is usual coincidence of circumstances. In principle maintenance: when one trouble at once there are, many other things has come.
And one of them had a camera on a cord around their neck,
It did not remove the chamber after they have come to tent. The camera was rather compact also did not disturb to it in its activity. Here there is not enough surprising.
and were found with a pen in one hand and a notepad in the other hand.
It is a myth which proves to be true nothing. In photos which are made at Simeon Zolotaryov's extraction there are no signs of it. Water stream in stream does not allow even to consider presumably that the notebook there could be kept in hands. There are no notes about it in 1959. Vladimir Akinadzi's memoirs have appeared almost 60 years after events. From the point view of psychology it is called aberrations in memory.
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WAB, and I quote you ; ''It is a myth which proves to be true nothing. In photos which are made at Simeon Zolotaryov's extraction there are no signs of it. Water stream in stream does not allow even to consider presumably that the notebook there could be kept in hands. There are no notes about it in 1959. Vladimir Akinadzi's memoirs have appeared almost 60 years after events. From the point view of psychology it is called aberrations in memory.''
[[ This is what Vladimir Akinadzi had to say about the NOTEBOOK in an interview with a journalist from Komsomolskaya Pravda a few years ago.
THE NOTEBOOK
When you dug them out, supposedly Semen Zolotaryov had a notebook in one hand, and in another pencil?
- Yes, the memory of the episode with a notebook made a big impression on me. Because Colonel Ortyukov, who directed the searches, somehow behaved inadequately. He jumped like a madman when he saw that there was a notebook in the hands of one of the bodies. We couldn’t say who that was. We didn’t know the guys, and they were practically unrecognizable. So, Ortyukov grabbed the notebook and began to turn the pages, and I stood beside him. He flipped back and forth, but it is empty. And Ortyukov cursed in his heart, I do not remember words exactly, but he said, approximately, something like: "Ah, slug, couldn’t write anything ...".
The book was submerged in the water. Maybe it blurred the records?
- May be.
And where is this notebook now?
- I don’t know. But there is a photo of Ortyukov holding this notebook in his right hand. ]]
So it looks to me like Vladimir positively remembers such a vivid event even after so long a time.
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1. Perhaps an ice sheet of decent size had slammed into the side of the tent, the sleeping bodies of those closest to the impact absorb the brunt of the force and the tent collapses.
2. After being hit with such a sheet the awakened and startled hikers rush to get their injured friends out and away from the danger zone. Carrying/ helping them down the hill to the safety of the woods.
3. The group eventually arrives at the woods and immediately sets to work on a fire. They begin cutting branches to feed their tiny fire but it's no use, it is not enough to keep them warm. Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko sadly both succumb to the cold. Their friends frantically try to resuscitate them, pushing on their chests vigorously but to no avail.
I'm responding a few weeks late. Even though the snow slide/ice sheet hitting the tent makes a lot of sense, it still has problems.
There's no evidence from footprints that anyone was helped, dragged or carried, which they would need to be after such injuries. Also, there's just no reason to return to the tent at night if they already know it's buried by an ice sheet. Not after you've gone all the way down the slop the trees and started a fire and snow den. If you're going to try and dig warmer clothing out of the tent, then the time to do it is soon after leaving the tent. It would have taken the nine hikers some time to descend under those conditions, so they would have had time to reconsider before getting too far away.
In addition, Teddy mentioned on the Midnight in the Desert radio show that if the hikers were fleeing a snow slide in panic, the footsteps wouldn't have been orderly and going downhill.
Also, the flashlight left on top of the tent is odd if it were a snow slide, given that it was found with little snow on it. Additionally, if they decided to not dig their stuff out of the tent at night, then there's no reason to leave the two flashlights behind for lighting the way back. They would come back during the day when it was light out and warmer. The flashlights would be a lot more useful for them in the woods.
This case is crazy, because every time you think you hear a convincing theory, it's not long before problems emerge with it.
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The snow hitting the TENT has a lot of problems. It couldnt have happened. All accounts of any meaning prove that of all the theories the avalanche theory is the least likely. The avalanche would have to have been of very great pressure to cause injuries and make the group flee the TENT. Also the TENT would have been dislodged with the interior items scattered about. And the FOOTPRINTS contradict that scenario. How can there be such footprints after a severe avalanche that leaves the TENT relatively intact including the interior.
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It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m. The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue. I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire. This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state. After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out. Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on? A sweater I think?
It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.
It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries. I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along. It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet. Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine. The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others. Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding. It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev. The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.
The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold. They had no chance.
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It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m. The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue. I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire. This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state. After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out. Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on? A sweater I think?
It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.
It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries. I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along. It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet. Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine. The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others. Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding. It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev. The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.
The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold. They had no chance.
I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent? Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?
And the next question is, why the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared? Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him) .
The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar? They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.
Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,
Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,
Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him
A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own? And why did not he take his camera? So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.
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It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m. The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue. I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire. This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state. After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out. Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on? A sweater I think?
It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.
It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries. I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along. It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet. Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine. The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others. Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding. It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev. The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.
The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold. They had no chance.
I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent? Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?
And the next question is, why the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared? Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him) .
The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar? They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.
Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,
Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,
Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him
A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own? And why did not he take his camera? So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.
Yes there are a number of possibilities . The trio may have event turned around to go back to the tent before the others got to the cedar. They may haver thought that whatever the threat was at the tent, that the cold was even a bigger threat. I still think it is more likely that they were all at th fear tree though.
I imagine (but it could be wrong) that they split at the cedar tree. I think the tri went back to the tent whilentheothers waited by the fire. When the tri never returned, they decided they needed a more sheltered area and moved into the woods. I don't think they would have moved into the woods unless they thought their friends were nt coming back.
I agree tht it's sad how they died in the ravine. It's haunting and I think this is one of the reasons that people want to find what happened to these poor people. It feels until the truth is known then there is no justice for them.
So options for sequence of events:
They split up before they got to cedar tree
They split up at the cedar tree
They split up at the ravine den
Is it possible that 7 of them got to the ravine and after four of them had died the remaining trio then tried to get back to the tent?
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Just thinking after my last post that if they were at the ravine after the four people had died then they would have taken the clothes themselves, so it is very unlikely that The three found on the slope ever went to the ravine.
This would mean the most likely sequence of events would be that they all got to the cedar tree and made the fire. Before the two Yuris died, the three set off back to the tent, but never made it. After a while the remaining four went deeper into the woods to the ravine. Maybe Lynda was struggling and was helped by two others, and they stumbled in the dark and fell sustaining their injuries. Thibo then built the den and tried to drag his remaining friends into the den, but he too was too weak and couldn't get them in, so he just laid down next to them to die.
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As the most likely version seems to me that after the death of the two under the tree, they all knew that they did not have the chance to survive without clothing. And so the trio went into the tent for clothes. The other four were probably waiting for their return (but why did not everyone went to the tent ???) and when the trio did not come back, they built a den with four places for sitting. But I ask again why did not they go together to the tent for their clothes but four of them waited at the fire.
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own???
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As the most likely version seems to me that after the death of the two under the tree, they all knew that they did not have the chance to survive without clothing. And so the trio went into the tent for clothes. The other four were probably waiting for their return (but why did not everyone went to the tent ???) and when the trio did not come back, they built a den with four places for sitting. But I ask again why did not they go together to the tent for their clothes but four of them waited at the fire.
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own???
Good questions. It’s difficult to know what state of mind they were in at the cedar tree. I can speculate and say that the three decided to go back to the tent because they needed the clothes the most. The remaining people at the cedar tree decided to wait and keep the fire going and also did not want to go back to whatever threat there may be at the tent.
It’s puzzling that Thibo took zoletarobv’s watch. Maybe before SZ died he gave him the watch?
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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.
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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.
That would explain it. Thanks Nigel
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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.
You are making statements like this but there is absolutely no way of knowing why he wore 2 watches ! ? What EVIDENCE is there that he wore the watches in case one stopped ! ?
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Dear Monika and Star man!
Unfortunately I have not enough time for all answers and comments in this forum, therefore I will do the remarks on a text course the Star man .That that concerns you there will be too. It will be the answer to your questions and conclusions, and the rest - not its questions and conclusions. I think that understand will be easy.
It seams to me that after leaving the tent, they all descended the slope together, based on the foot prints that led off for about 500m. The immediate minutes, hour after leaving the tent is when they would have been less affected by the cold and fatigue. I think they all made it to the cedar tree, and helped to build the fire. This would have taken a little time and it's possible that even before the fire was lit, that the two Yuris were in a bad state. After the two yurts had succumb to the cold, the others removed some of their clothing and shared it out. Didn't Igor have some of Yuris clothing on? A sweater I think?
In the most part of this description it is possible to agree, but there are specifications which should be essential.
1.There are no signs that all of them have reached a cedar. If all of them there have reached, they should not leave back. For this purpose it is enough to ask a question: what for? About "returning to tent" I will tell after. I think that anybody, except 2 Jura and one more person (I think that is Alexander Kolevatov) at a cedar were not.
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Substantiation of it is the so-called principle of "logic of events». It consists from this that there should be a full logicality in movement and actions of any person, and the deviation from it demands an additional substantiation of these actions. Each stage should be proved the weighty reason and suppose full possibility of such actions. If at least one of these conditions is not carried out, it is not meaningful to consider such action possible.
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Let's all actions estimate by this principle, only then we will receive a real picture of an event.
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2.As we has as the fact presence at a cedar of 2 bodies and it is necessary to estimate amount of works for these two. By my estimations on a place (it is direct at a cedar in the winter) it was difficult enough and hard work in the conditions of a cold, weariness and a stressful condition. The quantity of time necessary what of it to make I I estimate at 1 o'clock or 1,5 if to it 2 Yura were engaged. It is quite possible, but demands expenses of forces and presence of small damages which have been found out in them. Naturally, they have come to a cedar in sufficient clothes which from them was then removed by the one who came later. I limit all interval of time so: from the moment when they have decided that it is necessary to start to burn down a fire on this place and before they already have kindled it completely.
3.When they have kindled a fire, they were in rather normal state, but very strongly were tired and have frozen. That with them was then and why they have died the first is is a separate theme for discussion.
4.About possibility of moving of clothes from them to another, you think correctly.
It's not clear whether all remaining 7 went to the ravine, or whether they separated at this point.
If to use a principle *********** it is possible to tell almost precisely that all groups which have been found dead to a place of a fire and have not reached. Except one person who took off clothes. All of them operated separately, each group independently in quantity: 4 + 2 Yura + 1 +1 + 1. On another it is impossible logicians of events because it is impossible to answer a question “what for?” If to take only real answers.
It is possible that 3 of the 4 that went toward the ravine fell together and untainted the injuries. I could understand this happening, especially if one of the group was starting to struggle and 2 others were supporting them and helping them along. It was dark, it was cold, they may not have Ben able to feel their feet or the ground underneath h their feet. Under these circumstance, 3 of them may have stumbled together into the ravine. The one that didn't fall then did all in hismpowermto try and help the others. Lyuda probably died fast due to her heart injury and internal bleeding. It's possible that her Faux jacket and hat were then taken and placed on Zoltorev.
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The last one died trying to keep Zoloterev warm.
No. It is absolutely impossible (Kolevatov is dressed much worse, than Zolotaryov). But it reminds a pose when Kolevatov transferred Zolotaryov on back. From a place where the wound to den has been received, but it did not have not enough its forces to inform the remained 6 metres (18 ft).
The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold. They had no chance.
Here all of you have correctly written, only they could not come back in tent.
1. “What for?”
2. It was impossible technically.
3. They did not know where are, therefore and did not know where there is a tent.
4. To do it everyone alone, and furthermore without additional clothes not probably.
5. They could not throw each other if went together.
6. At them in pockets such set of things which is very necessary at a cedar, but is not necessary to them at returning in tent.
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The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold. They had no chance.
I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent?
Before to leave, it was necessary to come there. But such signs are not present. Therefore it is possible to pass this opinion.
To build a den there is no sense because it is necessary to leave in a cold, and the available clothes will not allow to live in such den. Especially if to consider that it in general it was impossible to construct in that place. On walls of a ravine of snow was a little and it was so friable that was showered right after how you start to dig. If it is necessary, I can result some photo of that ravine in яваре, February and March. There the snow condition is well visible. Besides, it began necessary to consider that for last 60 years of snow much more because of climate warming.
Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?
It anywhere in documents 1959 is not present. It could be only opinion on the Internet after 50 + years. Den was: the citation from criminal case :"... the den consists of 14 pieces of fir and 1 birch tree trunk on snow." (c) Their size (by words Anatoly Mohov) was 1,5 Х 1 m (that is no more than 1,5 sq. m. of the very seldom located trees in the thickness about 5 … 6 cm in diameter.
(https://b.radikal.ru/b07/1812/a7/8c8f7b57dd48t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b07/1812/a7/8c8f7b57dd48.jpg)
It is a picture dug out den.
And the next question is, why the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared?
Alexander Kolevatov could not transport bodies to den. It did not have not enough forces as it much and long did a hard work. Besides it constantly was on cold in weak clothes.
Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him)
1.Tibo could not do anything, that as at it was very much a serious trauma of a head and after it could not even be in understanding any more. It could receive the trauma only halfway from tent to a cedar because anywhere there are no conditions for this purpose further. Further it transferred.
2.Thorax Traumas (Lyudmila and Zolotprev) could receive in 40 … 50 m from a place where them have found. There is a sufficient slope in height in 8 metres (25 ft) and a steepness ~ in 35 degrees.
The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar?
Because they were not at cedar, means they did not go to tent, and went to cedar.
They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.
The unique explanation consists that they there were not, therefore and did not take clothes.
Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,
It was Yudin's vest which it has left in group when left from route. Further it could be transferred freely between participants of group. So it was possible at that time.
Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,
This is very approximate opinion. Though it is impossible to exclude it.
Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him
Here this opinion very doubtful. I can translate it to that on such searches always a lot of any mess. Even if it is truth, it about what especial cannot tell.
A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den
Yes. I so think that Alexander Kolevatov went from a place den to a fire, has taken off clothes from those two and has brought it to den. By the way of movement it has lost a part of these clothes in 15 … 20 m (50…60 ft) from cedar.
(https://c.radikal.ru/c28/1812/c6/34d65096ad20t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c28/1812/c6/34d65096ad20.gif)
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own?
Thibo did not take hours Zolotaryov. The second hours at it from Krivonishchenko. It is all it has been made still before all events have begun. As Zolotaryov and Thibo have the best than at all clothes, means they there were men on duty on this parking. The second hours were transferred to the man on duty when it was necessary to make precisely lifting of all group in time, but there were fears that one hours can casually stop. It is just that case.
And why did not he take his camera?
Zolotaryov it did not take with itself, and simply has not removed it after have come on parking. Probably that it has left on himself only a case, and the camera it has given to tent. Thibo did not have his one's own camera. Anyway on this travel.
So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.
On all questions there are quite simple and real answers, it is necessary to know much: features of such travel real life of that period of history about which we speak, features of concrete district up to the fine details, typical errors which make by such searches and at consequence carrying out. And still it is very necessary to lean against authentic certificates, especially if about them speak through 50 … 60 years after them. Here happens it is very useful перекрестно to compare these memoirs and to compare them to district, physical laws and historic facts in time. There are still photos of those events which give more objective picture.
If in stories it turns out so that memoirs do not correspond to one from this that I have resulted, they cannot be considered authentic.
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Yes there are a number of possibilities . The trio may have event turned around to go back to the tent before the others got to the cedar. They may haver thought that whatever the threat was at the tent, that the cold was even a bigger threat.
Earlier I already have described that the sense to go to tent even from a cedar because it was impossible for some reasons was not it. Especially it is`not matters on half of way.
I still think it is more likely that they were all at th fear tree though.
Why?
I imagine (but it could be wrong) that they split at the cedar tree. I think the tri went back to the tent whilentheothers waited by the fire. When the tri never returned, they decided they needed a more sheltered area and moved into the woods. I don't think they would have moved into the woods unless they thought their friends were nt coming back.
You do not do the conclusions agree to that that I have written in **************. If it so will turn out very much not logically and is absent necessity and possibility of such actions.
I agree tht it's sad how they died in the ravine. It's haunting and I think this is one of the reasons that people want to find what happened to these poor people. It feels until the truth is known then there is no justice for them.
It becomes known only when all actions will be understood only as logical and possible in practice. If it not so, it not a secret solution, and attempt to write the scenario for cinema. But it does not concern the validity.
So options for sequence of events:
They split up before they got to cedar tree
It is logical.
They split up at the cedar tree
It is doubtful so how much it is unreal according to the available facts and finds.
They split up at the ravine den
It is so unreal, how much unreal:
1.To Construct such den in snow.
2.To Survive in it clothes available for them.
Is it possible that 7 of them got to the ravine and after four of them had died the remaining trio then tried to get back to the tent?
It in general is impossible, because there are no facts and signs that those three have reached a cedar. Conversations and legends do not replace the facts.
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For today I will not have time to answer any more further.
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But it reminds a pose when Kolevatov transferred Zolotaryov on back.
If so, wouldn't Zolotaryov be the one embracing Kolevatov from behind, not the other way around? That's what the description of one of the photos says: "The bodies of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov were embraced breast-to-back, as if Kolevatov was protecting or trying to warm up Zolotaryov." If one of them indeed transported another, it rather seems from the photo that Zolotaryov had carried Kolevatov.
(https://i.ibb.co/sCj3h4P/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vh1zbWB)
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WAB can I ask.
Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?
Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?
Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?
Thanks
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But it reminds a pose when Kolevatov transferred Zolotaryov on back.
If so, wouldn't Zolotaryov be the one embracing Kolevatov from behind, not the other way around?
So it also means and reminds – carrying on back. Kolevatov carry Zolotaryov
I so think that some misunderstanding often arises because of double transfer.
That's what the description of one of the photos says: "The bodies of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov were embraced breast-to-back, as if Kolevatov was protecting or trying to warm up Zolotaryov." If one of them indeed transported another, it rather seems from the photo that Zolotaryov had carried Kolevatov.
(https://i.ibb.co/sCj3h4P/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vh1zbWB)
I wrote about the same it.
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WAB can I ask.
Yes, of course. For this purpose there is this forum.
Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?
They did not build any den. Because it there it is simply impossible. Snow was a little quantity. On a slope of ravine snow very friable also is showered at any excavation. That that was in quality den is a shoddy construction for this purpose, what it is possible was put on all of them wounded men for this purpose that they could to wait when others transfer to a fire which was at a cedar. It was attempt to isolate them from snow while transport of the others.
Any conclusions concerning this den in the investigation description does not exist.
Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?
Traumas which were in this group share on two categories: thorax and head injury traumas. Therefore it is possible to tell that thorax traumas are received near to that place where them have found. Close there is " necessary" place. The head injury at Thibo could be received only much above on a slope because near to a place where them have found there are no "necessary" conditions. He transported therefrom.
Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?
Yes. Only with more probability these groups were formed already below a place where there was a tent. Could be both associations, and partings for various reasons. Three on a slope, most likely in general moved separately. Both separately from each other, and separately from other groups.
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So it also means and reminds – carrying on back. Kolevatov carry Zolotaryov
I so think that some misunderstanding often arises because of double transfer.
I'm still not sure if we understand each other that well...
You say that it was Kolevatov who had carried Zolotaryov, right? And that is proven by the position they were found in in the ravine? Because on this photo, we can see Kolevatov's arm around Zolotaryov's neck (in the circle), not the other way around. Kolevatov is behind (implying that HE was the one been carried by Zolotaryov). Unless, it really was the case of Kolevatov trying to warm up Zolotaryov.
(https://i.ibb.co/SPWmBxp/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s2k1qPr)
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Unless, it really was the case of Kolevatov trying to warm up Zolotaryov.
(https://i.ibb.co/SPWmBxp/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s2k1qPr)
Or Koletov's corpse had been positioned to act as a windbreak.
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The Igor group may have been trying to get back to the tent, but this was a hopeless exercise as they were already exhausted and too cold. They had no chance.
I agree with the sequence of event as you wrote. But the question is, after the death of the two under the cedar, they split up so that they agreed that one group would build a den/shelter and the other would go to the clothes in tent?
Before to leave, it was necessary to come there. But such signs are not present. Therefore it is possible to pass this opinion.
To build a den there is no sense because it is necessary to leave in a cold, and the available clothes will not allow to live in such den. Especially if to consider that it in general it was impossible to construct in that place. On walls of a ravine of snow was a little and it was so friable that was showered right after how you start to dig. If it is necessary, I can result some photo of that ravine in яваре, February and March. There the snow condition is well visible. Besides, it began necessary to consider that for last 60 years of snow much more because of climate warming.
Or the two groups separated from each other and the group went to the tent only for clothing for themselves, and the other group built a day for themselves? Somewhere I read that the den was so big (3m2) that there were only for four people to sit there. Or after the death of the two under the cedar, tro went to the tent firstly and when did not return, the second group decided to build the den? Why all gropu did not go to the tent and they split up?
It anywhere in documents 1959 is not present. It could be only opinion on the Internet after 50 + years. Den was: the citation from criminal case :"... the den consists of 14 pieces of fir and 1 birch tree trunk on snow." (c) Their size (by words Anatoly Mohov) was 1,5 Х 1 m (that is no more than 1,5 sq. m. of the very seldom located trees in the thickness about 5 … 6 cm in diameter.
(https://b.radikal.ru/b07/1812/a7/8c8f7b57dd48t.jpg) (https://b.radikal.ru/b07/1812/a7/8c8f7b57dd48.jpg)
It is a picture dug out den.
And the next question is, why the four were found lying a few meters from the den and not inside as the den was already built and prepared?
Alexander Kolevatov could not transport bodies to den. It did not have not enough forces as it much and long did a hard work. Besides it constantly was on cold in weak clothes.
Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the den, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone ( I am so sorry for him)
1.Tibo could not do anything, that as at it was very much a serious trauma of a head and after it could not even be in understanding any more. It could receive the trauma only halfway from tent to a cedar because anywhere there are no conditions for this purpose further. Further it transferred.
2.Thorax Traumas (Lyudmila and Zolotprev) could receive in 40 … 50 m from a place where them have found. There is a sufficient slope in height in 8 metres (25 ft) and a steepness ~ in 35 degrees.
The next question is, why the trio returning to the tent did not wear the clothes from two under the cedar?
Because they were not at cedar, means they did not go to tent, and went to cedar.
They just needed it the most because they had to wade snow. The only explanation is that the two under the cedars died only after the trio decided to go to the tent and the remaining four had taken their clothes to themselves or to preparing the den.
The unique explanation consists that they there were not, therefore and did not take clothes.
Dyatlov was wearing the vest of Doroshenko,
It was Yudin's vest which it has left in group when left from route. Further it could be transferred freely between participants of group. So it was possible at that time.
Dubinia has some clothes of Doroshenko,
This is very approximate opinion. Though it is impossible to exclude it.
Zolotarev has Dubinia hat and coat – it is clear, she before him
Here this opinion very doubtful. I can translate it to that on such searches always a lot of any mess. Even if it is truth, it about what especial cannot tell.
A lot of clothes from two under tree were in the den
Yes. I so think that Alexander Kolevatov went from a place den to a fire, has taken off clothes from those two and has brought it to den. By the way of movement it has lost a part of these clothes in 15 … 20 m (50…60 ft) from cedar.
(https://c.radikal.ru/c28/1812/c6/34d65096ad20t.jpg) (https://c.radikal.ru/c28/1812/c6/34d65096ad20.gif)
And why did Thibo take Zolotarev's watch when he had his own?
Thibo did not take hours Zolotaryov. The second hours at it from Krivonishchenko. It is all it has been made still before all events have begun. As Zolotaryov and Thibo have the best than at all clothes, means they there were men on duty on this parking. The second hours were transferred to the man on duty when it was necessary to make precisely lifting of all group in time, but there were fears that one hours can casually stop. It is just that case.
And why did not he take his camera?
Zolotaryov it did not take with itself, and simply has not removed it after have come on parking. Probably that it has left on himself only a case, and the camera it has given to tent. Thibo did not have his one's own camera. Anyway on this travel.
So many questions and we do not know anything. It's so frustrating.
On all questions there are quite simple and real answers, it is necessary to know much: features of such travel real life of that period of history about which we speak, features of concrete district up to the fine details, typical errors which make by such searches and at consequence carrying out. And still it is very necessary to lean against authentic certificates, especially if about them speak through 50 … 60 years after them. Here happens it is very useful перекрестно to compare these memoirs and to compare them to district, physical laws and historic facts in time. There are still photos of those events which give more objective picture.
If in stories it turns out so that memoirs do not correspond to one from this that I have resulted, they cannot be considered authentic.
Thank you for your great contribution. I just want to specify a few things.
1 I did a mistake in the sentence "Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the day, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone" . Instead of Thibo I meant Kolevatov. He died as the last one. And I think after the death of all his friends he felt he was too tired and is dying. So he lied nexto to Zolotarov to feel a „human body and camrade“ not to die alone.
2. And I do not think that only one person built the den, all four of them are likely to be built it.
3. The pieces of clothes near the den could be purpously put there for the trio, who went for the clothes to the tent to find the easier track to the den that the four of them meanwhile were built. But on the other hand, it does not correspond to the small size of the den, not suitable for all seven people.
4. I do not think anyone would keep a guard at the tent during night due to a weather and whole day's effort traveling, everyone need to sleep in the night to be able to walking next days. And diary does not mention that. Rather, I guess, the two well dressed were outside to pee or smoking or... I dont know, when the tragic event happened.
5. I doubt three of them died on the way from the tent to a tree. Definitely all peple went into the forest together. This fact is supported by the footprints on the snow, where the first 500 meters they go together. Do you think that three of them separated and stayed on that place? And after some time they continued? Or what have they done so far? And their bodies were found on a different path than the traces of 8-9 people heading out of the tent. No, it is quite obvious that they were going to the forest together.
6. I still absolutely don´t undrerstand why Thibo has two watches? And both watches worked well and stopped almost at the same time. So it is clear that the other watched did not replace the first ones that broken down.
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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.
That would explain it. Thanks Nigel
Both watches worked well. One showed 8:14 and the other 8:39 when found.
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I'm still not sure if we understand each other that well...
You say that it was Kolevatov who had carried Zolotaryov, right?
Yes. Because Zolotaryov already had a serious trauma when to it even it was difficult to breathe. Therefore it could not bear Kolevatov in any way. Zolotaryov's trauma the lifetime.
And that is proven by the position they were found in in the ravine? Because on this photo, we can see Kolevatov's arm around Zolotaryov's neck (in the circle), not the other way around. Kolevatov is behind (implying that HE was the one been carried by Zolotaryov). Unless, it really was the case of Kolevatov trying to warm up Zolotaryov.
It is result of that they have already fallen also that water in a stream has made. At falling they could will be displaced with rotation a little. And as Kolevatov could try to support Zolotaryov during falling or already when have fallen.
The version about warming is absolutely illogical and it is not meaningful as a matter of fact physicists of process. Zolotaryov is dressed much more warmly than Kolevatov. It basically is impossible.
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I just want to specify a few things.
1 I did a mistake in the sentence "Apparently, three of them were injured when they stood outside the day, and the last one (Thibo) placed them next to each other and lay down to them not to die alone" . Instead of Thibo I meant Kolevatov. He died as the last one. And I think after the death of all his friends he felt he was too tired and is dying. So he lied nexto to Zolotarov to feel a „human body and camrade“ not to die alone.
It sometimes happens. You think about one, and you write another. The most important thing that we have together understood a situation.
2. And I do not think that only one person built the den, all four of them are likely to be built it.
At construction it one person, and quickly enough and without the big expenses of forces and time could make a den. In 2010 on this place the group with the head Sergey Semiashkin from Syktyvkar city, Komi republic went. It is the north in front of Ural Mountains from the West.
I wrote them the program of researches and the offer as well as that it is necessary to try to make. One of problems of this program was that after descent it was necessary to find a place in preset area and to build same a den. One person without other help was engaged in it. I assumed that on it is required (theoretical calculation) 1 hour or 1 hour and 15 minutes. By estimations Sergey right after how they have returned to Ekaterinburg, he has told that the person who built has spent for it entirely 1 hour. However, when he has written the report and has sent its copy to me, it has appeared that the person has spent 48 minutes. It specially estimated time. Even if to add some time because Kolevatov was tired, to it was cold and was more dark than at Semiashkin group (though it not so exists) that turns out the same 1 hour or 1 hour and 15 minutes. It is possible to add even 15 minutes, but it does not appear essentially.
3. The pieces of clothes near the den could be purpously put there for the trio, who went for the clothes to the tent to find the easier track to the den that the four of them meanwhile were built. But on the other hand, it does not correspond to the small size of the den, not suitable for all seven people.
You have not understood that that I wrote. I think (there are many signs) that those 3 were not at den. It is separate group. It turns out so that all groups worked separately from each other and were not crossed. Except that to fire Kolevatov went. After has constructed den. Therefore the den has been made for 3 or 4 persons. As shoddy construction.
4. I do not think anyone would keep a guard at the tent during night due to a weather and whole day's effort traveling, everyone need to sleep in the night to be able to walking next days. And diary does not mention that. Rather, I guess, the two well dressed were outside to pee or smoking or... I dont know, when the tragic event happened.
It has no value about that where they were. They should sleep together with everything, but if they men on duty they should do all work which is in the street. That the others would not be tired and did not receive a cold in addition. Them put to bed from outer side of their sleeping bags that the others would be better protected from a cold.
5. I doubt three of them died on the way from the tent to a tree. Definitely all peple went into the forest together. This fact is supported by the footprints on the snow, where the first 500 meters they go together.
Well why you have such doubts?
1.There are no signs of that they worked below because the amount of works there is quite sufficient for a two.
2.At them in pockets it is a lot of subjects which are very necessary at a fire, but they lie not taken in pockets.
3.It is not known what way they have done before have got into place where them have found. Most likely they could wander on a slope or try to find whom that of group, constantly accepting for people different branches and stones. There it at very probably night and without the moon.
4.Slobodin`s head injury from which it could not leave from a place where it has received more than on 50 … 100 m. It is impossible, because the person has so-called «a threadlike consciousness». The consciousness at first appears, but then quickly there is its loss as in a fog, then there is "failure", and then it can appear for some time if the person is in rest.
5.Zina too has not serious traumas: at a waist and blood around the person. Most likely it is the damaged nose.
6.All three are dressed not so well, as those 4 at a den.
7.Traces it not an indicator of joint movement. Because not necessarily all went together. Even if between participants of group there was an interval some minutes it is enough of it that they would not see one - another. Traces can give acknowledgement of that all of them have passed in this place. But there it turns out automatically - they went downhill and in a wind direction. Besides, traces were not one continuous road. They were separate fragments with wide intervals. 500 metrs, to be exact ~ 450 m, are total length of a site where them observed. But it has allowed to count their total. It is very successful case, usually on searches it is possible to see only separate fragments when it is possible to assume only, how many all has passed the person.
Do you think that three of them separated and stayed on that place? And after some time they continued? Or what have they done so far?
No, they with very high probability also did not see each other. Because if they contacted, there would be signs that who that assisted the one who has suffered. But these signs are not present, even the smallest. To admit what who that has thrown the companion in general anybody from their contemporaries and friends on club of travellers cannot even theoretically.
And their bodies were found on a different path than the traces of 8-9 people heading out of the tent. No, it is quite obvious that they were going to the forest together.
I have already written why it not so.
6. I still absolutely don´t undrerstand why Thibo has two watches? And both watches worked well and stopped almost at the same time. So it is clear that the other watched did not replace the first ones that broken down.
It became specially for the man on duty who should wake all groups in the morning. This time is very essential, therefore to it give the second hours. Just in case. For example, if one stop for any reason. To give hours then when the first have stopped already will be late. As it is not meaningful to awake constantly whom that still, differently then the sense vanishes to appoint the man on duty for this purpose, what to allow to all to have a rest and wake all in time. It is usual practice on such travel of that time.
Not very well that watch worked whole well. In advance it is impossible to know that will occur, therefore and reduced probability of accidents.
We have such joke of travellers: “Compass and a map are necessary till that time as you have already lost the way.” (c) grin1
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The person on watch wore two watches in case one stopped.
That would explain it. Thanks Nigel
Both watches worked well. One showed 8:14 and the other 8:39 when found.
Yes. There is a certain law in it.
Here there is a section about Chivruay tragedy 1973. I there was also we made experiments with watch. When we have put watch on ice they have stopped approximately through 50 … 60 minutes after them have put. There too we have paid attention that two watch have stopped simultaneously on hands at different people.
There was a continuation of this experiment. When we have found last participant of their this group after we have removed watch and them have a little warmed, they have again started to work.
We have made the statement to main public prosecutor of Murmansk region and it has agreed that to consider it as the fact of approximate time as dead of this person.
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WAB thanks for your insights. Very interesting.
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WAB can I ask.
Yes, of course. For this purpose there is this forum.
Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?
They did not build any den. Because it there it is simply impossible. Snow was a little quantity. On a slope of ravine snow very friable also is showered at any excavation. That that was in quality den is a shoddy construction for this purpose, what it is possible was put on all of them wounded men for this purpose that they could to wait when others transfer to a fire which was at a cedar. It was attempt to isolate them from snow while transport of the others.
Any conclusions concerning this den in the investigation description does not exist.
Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?
Traumas which were in this group share on two categories: thorax and head injury traumas. Therefore it is possible to tell that thorax traumas are received near to that place where them have found. Close there is " necessary" place. The head injury at Thibo could be received only much above on a slope because near to a place where them have found there are no "necessary" conditions. He transported therefrom.
Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?
Yes. Only with more probability these groups were formed already below a place where there was a tent. Could be both associations, and partings for various reasons. Three on a slope, most likely in general moved separately. Both separately from each other, and separately from other groups.
WAB do you think the two Yuri built the fire themselves without help from the others? Witness statement implies it was work of more than two people? What are your thoughts?
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WAB can I ask.
Yes, of course. For this purpose there is this forum.
Do you think they did build a den or do you think that the den is just a few tree branches and an incorrect conclusion of the investigation?
They did not build any den. Because it there it is simply impossible. Snow was a little quantity. On a slope of ravine snow very friable also is showered at any excavation. That that was in quality den is a shoddy construction for this purpose, what it is possible was put on all of them wounded men for this purpose that they could to wait when others transfer to a fire which was at a cedar. It was attempt to isolate them from snow while transport of the others.
Any conclusions concerning this den in the investigation description does not exist.
Do you think the injuries of those in the ravine were caused by a fall?
Traumas which were in this group share on two categories: thorax and head injury traumas. Therefore it is possible to tell that thorax traumas are received near to that place where them have found. Close there is " necessary" place. The head injury at Thibo could be received only much above on a slope because near to a place where them have found there are no "necessary" conditions. He transported therefrom.
Do you think they split into 3 separate groups after leaving the tent?
Yes. Only with more probability these groups were formed already below a place where there was a tent. Could be both associations, and partings for various reasons. Three on a slope, most likely in general moved separately. Both separately from each other, and separately from other groups.
WAB do you think the two Yuri built the fire themselves without help from the others? Witness statement implies it was work of more than two people? What are your thoughts?
There is no way to find out how many people built the fire. It is only speculation. Those searchers who found them maybe thought that because they were both find at the fire, they also made it together.
And I think the two of them who climbed on a tree did it not to get branches but to try to get a view to the tent. If the tent was exposed to some physical phenomenon accompanied by e.g. lightning, so climbing on a tree makes sense.
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WAB do you think the two Yuri built the fire themselves without help from the others? Witness statement implies it was work of more than two people? What are your thoughts?
I cannot make comments on testimony because I do not see who it spoke and that he has told particularly. If to estimate now, my experience in such travel not more low, and much more above, than at people who then that spoke that. Therefore all should be compared in identical conditions. It especially concerns expert estimations.
Work on the device and kindling of a fire has no considerable quantity and work.
If look on operations, that it turns out:
1.It is necessary to make the decision that will do a fire on this place.
2.Look round around and to choose that of what to make a fire. Even if have not reflected on that what on capacity it should be.
3.Get on a tree and to find the necessary branches which can be broken.
4.Break them and dump downwards. Below collect it and quantity to one place.
5.Preliminary (before 4.) choose place for fire and clear away snow how much it probably for the fire making.
6.Plane small chips and/or prepare available paper, rags (or that is another that burns) for fire kindling.
7.Start light fire, gradually increasing the size of burning material.
It is all that it is necessary make. It is necessary to watch only a fire further that it would not go out.
As it is easy see here quite enough two persons and there is no great volume of work.
But is and complicating factors.
1.This process goes in continuous time, and it is necessary to consider and arising intervals between separate necessary actions.
2.External conditions brake and complicate all process. Especially it is influenced by a cold.
However it can be overcome because those who it does have strong will and they are stimulated with desire to survive. Therefore they did not pay attention to any small accompanying traumas.
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There is no way to find out how many people built the fire. It is only speculation. Those searchers who found them maybe thought that because they were both find at the fire, they also made it together.
And I think the two of them who climbed on a tree did it not to get branches but to try to get a view to the tent.
Why it is impossible to learn it? There is such method in a science which modelling is called.
It means that at first it is necessary analyse all theoretically, with the greatest possible approach received of practice. It will be logic modelling which will establish communications and restrictions.
Further it is possible to calculate necessary time and means for this purpose that all it would be executed. And as to check up logic interrelations. Especially it is necessary what to exclude impossible events and inconsistency. It will be mathematical modelling.
Then it is possible to spend natural reproduction of all these components of model. It will be physical modelling.
Alternatively it is possible to use expert estimations. The skill level of experts should be much more above than level of the maximum complexity in event.
Probably it is all to understand difficultly to the person which in modelling was not engaged, but it is way with very high probability to receive correct estimation of events.
How you represent it to yourselves? I wrote recently about it in detail why it is impossible physically. (My answer № 25 from October, 24th, 2018, 10:24:24 AM) But the most important thing, ask itself a question: what for it to do? What should they receive as a result? To return to the tent location before when it becomes light, they could not. On February, 02nd 1959 dawn came at 09:26 АМ. By this time they could not live any more because they had so big deficiency of heat that people who did not leave on the nature further own sofa can discuss it only.
Look at that three hours showed about identical time nearby 8:30 АМ. Hours on a hand of the dead person from a cold stop approximately in 1 hour after he has died. Means, they already have died approximately at 7:30 АМ.
If the tent was exposed to some physical phenomenon accompanied by e.g. lightning, so climbing on a tree makes sense.
I have not understood, in what connection here is “to climb on a tree” and “the physical phenomenon” on a tent place? Please decipher this phrase.
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There is no way to find out how many people built the fire. It is only speculation. Those searchers who found them maybe thought that because they were both find at the fire, they also made it together.
And I think the two of them who climbed on a tree did it not to get branches but to try to get a view to the tent.
Why it is impossible to learn it? There is such method in a science which modelling is called.
It means that at first it is necessary analyse all theoretically, with the greatest possible approach received of practice. It will be logic modelling which will establish communications and restrictions.
Further it is possible to calculate necessary time and means for this purpose that all it would be executed. And as to check up logic interrelations. Especially it is necessary what to exclude impossible events and inconsistency. It will be mathematical modelling.
Then it is possible to spend natural reproduction of all these components of model. It will be physical modelling.
Alternatively it is possible to use expert estimations. The skill level of experts should be much more above than level of the maximum complexity in event.
Probably it is all to understand difficultly to the person which in modelling was not engaged, but it is way with very high probability to receive correct estimation of events.
How you represent it to yourselves? I wrote recently about it in detail why it is impossible physically. (My answer № 25 from October, 24th, 2018, 10:24:24 AM) But the most important thing, ask itself a question: what for it to do? What should they receive as a result? To return to the tent location before when it becomes light, they could not. On February, 02nd 1959 dawn came at 09:26 АМ. By this time they could not live any more because they had so big deficiency of heat that people who did not leave on the nature further own sofa can discuss it only.
Look at that three hours showed about identical time nearby 8:30 АМ. Hours on a hand of the dead person from a cold stop approximately in 1 hour after he has died. Means, they already have died approximately at 7:30 АМ.
If the tent was exposed to some physical phenomenon accompanied by e.g. lightning, so climbing on a tree makes sense.
I have not understood, in what connection here is “to climb on a tree” and “the physical phenomenon” on a tent place? Please decipher this phrase.
Interesting about MODELLING. But it is still essentially SPECULATION. PROBABILITY is not a definite YES. So any MODELLING or PROBABILITY to try to solve the DYATLOV CASE must still be considered as SPECULATION unless there is REAL EVIDENCE to back it up. And as you all know in the DYATLOV CASE there is VERY LITTLE REAL EVIDENCE AVAILABLE. In fact the best EVIDENCE is MISSING.
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3. The group decided to head for the forest away from this "something"
and left a torch halfway down to assist their return.
What indications are there that the torch was left to assist their return?
Is it likely that the students deliberately left the torch?
How do we know that such was the case?
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3. The group decided to head for the forest away from this "something"
and left a torch halfway down to assist their return.
What indications are there that the torch was left to assist their return?
Is it likely that the students deliberately left the torch?
How do we know that such was the case?
It's an assumption based on it being found switched on (battery flat of course).
The options seem to be :-1. Left as a beacon for the return.2. Simply dropped and ignored because their mental state wasn't very sensible (nitrous oxide theory, n.b. this fits with wasting matches lighting a fire and climbing and falling out of the cedar.3. Dropped and unable to retrieve as under duress (human/animal/other) n.b. the footsteps indicate an orderly descent with no sign of running? Also they build a fire say 500m from this point which would seem to rule out most forms of duress except being prisoners.
So i like 1 or 2. I don't accept the "at gunpoint" theory so don't consider 3 to be probable.
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The order of events can only reasonably be as follows: 1 When the mountaineers were in the forest, they heard some terrible and interesting noises and opened surveillance holes in the tent. And they watched the forest ... But after a while they wanted to escape the forest and take shelter in the mountains .... And go to the mountain and set up the tent there again. It could be around 6 o'clock eri 5. Around 10 o'clock they started to fall asleep çıkar 6.They had removed most of their shoes and their clothes m Even two Yuri were only left in their underwear .... 7. But they couldn't sleep because they were so scared. 8. At the same time, they heard a terrible sound at the door of the tent, and the door of the tent was likely to be opened ..... 9. And because they knew they couldn't handle it, they thought the best choice was to cut the tent away. 10. At the same time, Semyon was able to wear Dubunina's furry jacket and hat, and Dubunina also wore another friend's suit. Semyondu is the oldest and wise one of the most sane ones. And so she was able to keep her composure for a while. And the deaths were between 12:00 and 2:00 am ... So they ran away from the tent at 10:00 to 2 to 4 hours later ......
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It was just during the daytime when it was to the west of the mountain of death ..... that's why they opened peephole holes in the tent ...... And after a while they wanted to take shelter on the hillside of the mountain without the evening ... Because the perimeter would be open and any danger would be noticed immediately And in the evening they ate dinner between 18:00 and 19: 00, and they wanted to sleep around 22:00 .... Because they were hoping that this superimposed would not harm them ... Semyon sensed something was going to happen den So she was always dressed and didn't let the camera shut. But after 22:00, this superman attacked them. And they had to cut the tent and run away .... Nobody dared to wear shoes because the shoes were on the entrance side ... Escape from the tent started with someone cutting the tent. And others followed it instead of staying in the tent .... So one or two that cut the tent the person played a trigger role to escape from the tent.
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And they came near the cedar tree ..... Their priorities were to burn a big fire ... so they wanted to break the big branches in the cedar tree instead of the little twigs on the ground .... First they would burn the small branches and then burn the big branches. a fire or even fire ... So they would come warming themselves and maybe Superman would not fright and attack ..... Meanwhile, the brave and courageous of the group, Igor and Zina and Rusty wanted to return to the tent to buy shoes and other supplies. The other 4 mountaineers also wanted to make a cave ... Because it was so cold outside ... And the two naked Yuri stayed by the fire ... Because they were the ones who needed the most fire .... Igor and his team turned to the tent and 10 minutes after the first attack Igora was done .... Rustem and Zina ran to the tent ... But after 180 meters caught in Rustem ... Then 150 meters after Zina da yakal moment (distance is less due to both the woman is tired and adorable.) .... Then went to Superman .... And killed the others ..... But the victims did not die instantly .... Maybe it was between 2-5 dakka ...... So they turned around left and right dying ....
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How did Superman kill him? Superman probably had the shocking power. and this is already evident from Dubinina and Semyon. I mean, it is not possible to fight him directly ..... but Rüstem fists against him and his arm has hung up in the air with his Igoru ... Although it is known that it will not work, it can still be called the protection reflex. And maybe they broke the big branches in the tree both for fire and to protect themselves. And most likely 2 Yuri were attacked while the fire was still not extinguished. Because if the fire went off, they would go to the cave immediately for the ones that were naked. If they got out of the tent at 22:00 hours, there were deaths between 00:00 and 02:00.
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1000 ml of urine was full of urinary bladder. I mean, food's been eaten, but maybe it wasn't really out of fear. 1000ml is too much. This was a constant fear and rush after 18:00. The consequence of this is that Igor and the others were in so much fear and fuss that they did not even take time to pee. And they postponed the peeing .... The explanation is that the young mountaineers are not only afraid of death. fear of this peeing for at least 2 hours
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Superman kewl1 has been with them ever before. He knew them all. He even loved it. And he wanted to be friends with them and Dubin with them .... And he entered into with them communicated .... But this communication did not come to a conclusion. They flipped him off without knowing .... They didn't want to be friends or lovers ... But they made their ends ... Superman bat1 wanted to take revenge on them ... And he took ... But perhaps God has forgiven them ... He has taken them to Paradise. Amen ...
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cennetkusu. You could say all that you have said in ONE POST. You are obviously pushing the PARANORMAL THEORY. But where is the substance ! ?
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1000 ml of urine was full of urinary bladder. I mean, food's been eaten, but maybe it wasn't really out of fear. 1000ml is too much. This was a constant fear and rush after 18:00. The consequence of this is that Igor and the others were in so much fear and fuss that they did not even take time to pee. And they postponed the peeing .... The explanation is that the young mountaineers are not only afraid of death. fear of this peeing for at least 2 hours
Nah... if something is that frightening, you just piss yourself. Ever heard the saying 'scared the piss outta me'? I never heard the term 'scared me into holding my piss'.
Know what I'm saying?
1000ml is alot though.... I'll give you that. For all I know, the body still produces urin after death, or for some scientific reason the volume increases?
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1000 ml of urine was full of urinary bladder. I mean, food's been eaten, but maybe it wasn't really out of fear. 1000ml is too much. This was a constant fear and rush after 18:00. The consequence of this is that Igor and the others were in so much fear and fuss that they did not even take time to pee. And they postponed the peeing .... The explanation is that the young mountaineers are not only afraid of death. fear of this peeing for at least 2 hours
Nah... if something is that frightening, you just piss yourself. Ever heard the saying 'scared the piss outta me'? I never heard the term 'scared me into holding my piss'.
Know what I'm saying?
1000ml is alot though.... I'll give you that. For all I know, the body still produces urin after death, or for some scientific reason the volume increases?
A full bladder is apparently a common feature of death by hypothermia. In order to conserve heat the body constricts blood flow to the limbs. This increases the volume of blood in the trunk and hence the pressure. The kidneys (which filter the blood) respond by dumping excess fluid into the bladder. At this stage the victims are losing consciousness and nerve function and don't relieve themselves.
It is the lack of full bladders in most of the DP corpses that suggests that they did not die of hypothermia. It maybe that only Igor did.
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It is very clear and clear that this is not a normal event ..... A paranormal event is definitely ..... There is no other explanation ..... Why did the climbers first escape from the tent ??? There can only be two explanations of this .... 1. Superman attack 2. Staying in the tent must have disturbed them very much .... And they could not stand and went down to the forest ...... Or both together ... So before the sounds of the tent and they saw the images. Meanwhile, the band's oldest and cool-blooded Semyon hurriedly wore the poncho of Dubunina and stepped out with Alexandan. And finally the superman attacked the tent. (Or the voices got too extreme and they couldn't stand and went down to the forest.) I think everyone realized that something will happen in the last moments. And when they were in the tent they accidentally wore each other's clothes. but they didn't have time to wear boots. I don't think it's possible to wear it outside. Two Yuris were maybe asleep and were forced to leave the tent naked.
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The climbers had not guessed that this being could kill themselves until the last time ..... because they would not go back to the tent if they had predicted it would. And they'd run away. Or dig up a cave, collectively stay there. And they used to fire there. Three was never divided. I think they all came together to the cedar tree and lit a big fire to heat the two Yuris. And they dug 75 meters ahead. Because it's not possible to dig in without a light .... and the lighthouse is a possible line. But maybe they could have dug up a piece of fire. Because only 4 seats were made. That's just a proof that there are only four people going.
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There are about 150 meters between the group returning to the tent. 150 meters up -15 degrees uphill how many dakkada taken? If it is used, it can fall down to 2 minutes. I mean, Superman can kill climbers for about 2 minutes. It wasn't instantaneous lard And suddenly they didn't die med They could move for a second. So they were all found in different ways. They must have made a sound when they were dying: Because body shapes are expressing it al They do not fist the hand of Rust and take Zian to the position of the fetus and protect herself, and they are not on the bottom of the mountaineers in the snow cave. They're scattered around ... It seems that they have never had time to sit there .... It means that those four climbers were near the fire and warming up. And when the fire started to fade, they thought of making a cave in the snow .... And the other 3 mountaineers wanted to go back to the tent and take the boots and other items ... but this was after the division !!!
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1000 ml of urine was full of urinary bladder. I mean, food's been eaten, but maybe it wasn't really out of fear. 1000ml is too much. This was a constant fear and rush after 18:00. The consequence of this is that Igor and the others were in so much fear and fuss that they did not even take time to pee. And they postponed the peeing .... The explanation is that the young mountaineers are not only afraid of death. fear of this peeing for at least 2 hours
Nah... if something is that frightening, you just piss yourself. Ever heard the saying 'scared the piss outta me'? I never heard the term 'scared me into holding my piss'.
Know what I'm saying?
1000ml is alot though.... I'll give you that. For all I know, the body still produces urin after death, or for some scientific reason the volume increases?
A full bladder is apparently a common feature of death by hypothermia. In order to conserve heat the body constricts blood flow to the limbs. This increases the volume of blood in the trunk and hence the pressure. The kidneys (which filter the blood) respond by dumping excess fluid into the bladder. At this stage the victims are losing consciousness and nerve function and don't relieve themselves.
It is the lack of full bladders in most of the DP corpses that suggests that they did not die of hypothermia. It maybe that only Igor did.
Nice bit of deduction Nigel. It helps to show that all or most of the Dyatlov Group possibly died or came close to death before the severe cold had the final say.
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Apparently it was their end of division ..... Igor found 300 meters away from the tent. So it's about 5 dakka ..... It's not possible to prepare a seat (it is 75 meters away) scrape a cave of 4 climbers in 5 dakka (?) So before 4 climbers left to dig a cave in the snow. Then the other 3 climbers decided to go back to the tent for two Yuri ... because they would die if they didn't. And they put themselves at risk. Because they didn't know if Superman would kill themselves. Maybe these three climbers never left the fire. When Superman attacked them, they fled to the mountain. And they were caught one by one. Because we need four minutes to kill two Yurini. That's 4 minutes, Igor went 300 meters away ... It makes more sense. Because the people who escaped from the tent despite the severe cold never return to the tent ...... But they may have put themselves at risk for their friends ....
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1000 ml of urine was full of urinary bladder. I mean, food's been eaten, but maybe it wasn't really out of fear. 1000ml is too much. This was a constant fear and rush after 18:00. The consequence of this is that Igor and the others were in so much fear and fuss that they did not even take time to pee. And they postponed the peeing .... The explanation is that the young mountaineers are not only afraid of death. fear of this peeing for at least 2 hours
Nah... if something is that frightening, you just piss yourself. Ever heard the saying 'scared the piss outta me'? I never heard the term 'scared me into holding my piss'.
Know what I'm saying?
1000ml is alot though.... I'll give you that. For all I know, the body still produces urin after death, or for some scientific reason the volume increases?
People delays or forget peeing in a great fear. You should know that .... 1000ml is not possible to be too much .... after death ....
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1000 ml of urine was full of urinary bladder. I mean, food's been eaten, but maybe it wasn't really out of fear. 1000ml is too much. This was a constant fear and rush after 18:00. The consequence of this is that Igor and the others were in so much fear and fuss that they did not even take time to pee. And they postponed the peeing .... The explanation is that the young mountaineers are not only afraid of death. fear of this peeing for at least 2 hours
Nah... if something is that frightening, you just piss yourself. Ever heard the saying 'scared the piss outta me'? I never heard the term 'scared me into holding my piss'.
Know what I'm saying?
1000ml is alot though.... I'll give you that. For all I know, the body still produces urin after death, or for some scientific reason the volume increases?
A full bladder is apparently a common feature of death by hypothermia. In order to conserve heat the body constricts blood flow to the limbs. This increases the volume of blood in the trunk and hence the pressure. The kidneys (which filter the blood) respond by dumping excess fluid into the bladder. At this stage the victims are losing consciousness and nerve function and don't relieve themselves.
It is the lack of full bladders in most of the DP corpses that suggests that they did not die of hypothermia. It maybe that only Igor did.
Yes. Lack of full bladders. This is probably because most of them may have died from hypoxia and nitrogen dioxide poisoning.
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Yes. Lack of full bladders. This is probably because most of them may have died from hypoxia and nitrogen dioxide poisoning.
Not most, the ravine event killed 5 if you include Rustem who died of internal bleeding. The NO2 would not be a problem below 20C so not a problem in the forest. It's effects would be localised to the tent area, perhaps extending down the mountain as far as the persistent footsteps. However N2O if present would continue to be a problem in the forest.
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Yes. Lack of full bladders. This is probably because most of them may have died from hypoxia and nitrogen dioxide poisoning.
Not most, the ravine event killed 5 if you include Rustem who died of internal bleeding. The NO2 would not be a problem below 20C so not a problem in the forest. It's effects would be localised to the tent area, perhaps extending down the mountain as far as the persistent footsteps. However N2O if present would continue to be a problem in the forest.
Doesn’t nitrogen dioxide have a delayed effect though.
The latest update of my theory suggests that there may have been a toxic cloud of nitrogen dioxide up to 50 square km that forced them to leave the camp and head down the slope. They climb the cedar to get to higher position to escape the cloud, but Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo succumb and lose consciousness and fall out of the cedar tree.
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What about carbon dioxide, or methanol?
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Yes. Lack of full bladders. This is probably because most of them may have died from hypoxia and nitrogen dioxide poisoning.
Not most, the ravine event killed 5 if you include Rustem who died of internal bleeding. The NO2 would not be a problem below 20C so not a problem in the forest. It's effects would be localised to the tent area, perhaps extending down the mountain as far as the persistent footsteps. However N2O if present would continue to be a problem in the forest.
Doesn’t nitrogen dioxide have a delayed effect though.
The latest update of my theory suggests that there may have been a toxic cloud of nitrogen dioxide up to 50 square km that forced them to leave the camp and head down the slope. They climb the cedar to get to higher position to escape the cloud, but Lyuda, Semyon and Thibo succumb and lose consciousness and fall out of the cedar tree.
Yes the effect is delayed but my theory is that Yuri D gets the worse exposure at the tent which kills him relatively quickly. The others are impaired but can function perhaps with laboured breathing (enlarged aortas) until attempting to return to the tent at which point they discover they are unable.
Your theory would require the temperature to be above 21C across 50 square km which i think is somewhat unlikely.
I prefer the idea that although N2O is heavier than air it would be warm and hence lighter than the cold air within the trees. Hence it would travel across the treetops towards the ravine. In climbing the tree YuriK would have ascended into the N2O layer and suffered a total loss of limb control. Falling badly getting concussed with his leg in the fire. After the death of the 2 Yuris the group abandon the fire and elect for the ravine which curiously isn't as cold.
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What about carbon dioxide, or methanol?
Give us your theory...
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What about carbon dioxide, or methanol?
Give us your theory...
No theory, just possibilities. C02 has burped up out of the ground and killed plenty of people.
https://youtu.be/zEs6j0MGTgk
Then of course we know oil exploration in the area was top priority for the Kremlin at the time. The very helicopter that was dispatched to aid in the search and rescue came from a unit that transported methanol to small traveling oil exploration rigs. They were specifically ordered/permitted to dump their cargo in non populated areas if an emergency requires it.
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I don't think this is the way the two Yurin were killed ..... So they were moved after death ... I think that the superman who killed them did not do it ..... Someone from the locals saw them there. And they put them side by side and put them in a proper shape. Because their bodies were in the clear. And it was seen from the outside. 25 days is a very long time. Probably the hunters from the locals saw two Yuris.
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The group didn't expect the super to attack the tent until the last moment. Because two Yuri were naked. That means the band is about to go to bed .... Semyon sensed that something would happen. And he chose to stay dressed. And he never took the camera off. And the superman must be seeing and hearing what's going on in the tent. And he must have frightened the band before they attacked the tent. Because the group immediately after the attack, the tent is cut without thinking, and they run away to the forest !!! I think it must be different and horrendous noises ..... These voices were so influenced that the young people lost themselves ... And they must have felt helpless and weak ... Or there is no point in running away from their tent.