Theories Discussion > Infra-sound / Gravity fluctuation / Teleportation
Infrasound? Most unlikely.
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: Per Inge Oestmoen on December 01, 2020, 09:49:49 AM --- ... Reply #104
--- End quote ---
Dear Per Inge Oestmoen, we are in agreement on the essential aspect that I have even included in my signature:
" There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine."
However, probably because I am influenced by some Russian authors - especially by Aleks Kandr - I am working on different reconstructions of the DPI which, for the "WHO?" and "WHY?" questions, involve Stalinist opposition to Khrushchev's reforms during the Thaw period (1953-1964).
More precisely, the DPI seems to me to be a sequel to the purification of the perverted agents who had belonged to the NKVD by the KGB, which had been created, partly for this purpose, on 1 January 1954 by Khrushchev.
For Aleks Kandr's suggestions see in Russian :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
I have already written a few comments concerning your arguments. Look at :
Jean Daniel Reuss : November 21, 2020, 09:57:01 AM ==> Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass -> Reply #59
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg11147#msg11147
Here are some additional comments.
These combat-trained professional killers would not let themselves be punched in the face
1) - How can we explain the damaged fists of Dyatlov, Slobodin, Kolmogorova and perhaps even Krivononishenko ? Their fists really hit something hard, is that right ? If this is not the face of an attacker, then what is it?
2) - The advantage of superior training diminishes in real combat conditions.
It was in complete darkness. The wind was blowing. Powdery snow was flying everywhere. The snowy ground was slippery
3) - Nobody knows exactly how these "combat-trained professional killers" are trained.
I rather think that the attackers were men resistant to fatigue and cold, good skiers to be able to make the trip from North-2 to the tent quickly. But they were also great savages brutes, good at hitting hard with a big stick but not very fast because they were crammed into their warm clothes.
4) - According to my reenactment the first fights occurred on the slope, shortly after leaving the tent, when the hikers had not had time to be slowed down by the cold. The young and sporty hikers remained flexible and fast in attack as well as in defence.
they might in some point in the future reveal what they had seen.
I cannot understand at all what a hiker or a wanderer could have seen that was really important for the security of the Soviet state on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl. Could you give us some more concrete ideas ?
there was no reason to perform any interrogations or torture
I think the opposite is true because the DPI is an unusual case which, as soon as it is discovered, raises a lot of questions.
• How could good citizens, who with the voucher were on a semi-official mission, suddenly become men to be killed without warning ?
• This is precisely what all the intelligence services would have to find out in great details (What exactly did they see? Who did they meet?...etc ).
• In these cases there is first of all a fundamental principle which is : "The dead will never speak again and then we will not be able to learn anything more"
later transportation in closed coffins
Closed coffins: only because rotting corpses smell very, very bad.
In the case of the four of the Den, there were various liquids coming out of the bodies. Look at the corpse of Zolotaryov: his chest does not contain much solid matter anymore.
Even when Colonel Ortuykov threatened the pilot of the helicopter with his revolver, the pilot courageously refused to stink up the inside of his helicopter. See :
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
Note: There are reportedly realistic descriptions of the lingering smell of rotting meat in Patricia Cornwell's English novels (I have not read).
someone else made the killings.
There are many different suspects other than the Mansis or the KGB. For example, Vietnamka has raised the possibility that the hikers may have discovered gold trafficking from illegal mining operations north of Vizhay.
the authorities above knew about the death of the nine long before anyone in Sverdlovsk or Ivdel had any reason to suspect that anything had happened
I also think that in the following days, the authorities learned a lot about the death of the nine, without moving and only by questioning the attackers on their return to the Vizhay region.
these attackers took great care to execute the killings in such a way that it would look like an accident
It is the opposite.
The attackers did not want the massacre of the nine hikers to look like an accident.
The DPI is an attack of a terrorist nature committed by Stalinists, former camp guards and torturers of the NKVD, whose aim was to impress the Kremlin leadership during the period of the XXIst Congress of the CPSU.
The aim was to make Khrushchev's entourage understand that the Stalinist agents of the NKVD in the Ivdel and Vizhay region were determined to fight firmly against the Thaw.
The message that was implicitly sent to Moscow could look like this:
"Do not continue to diminish our privileges. We are ready for anything.
Look how we killed the 9 propagandist emissaries you sent us.
We slaughtered them all. We even crushed them. We even gouged out their eyes. And we extracted the tongue of the traitorous Dubinina.
So Mr Khrushchev, be reasonable: you are in charge of almost the whole of the USSR but north of Ivdel we are in command.
Leave us alone or we will fight you "........ and indeed, in 1964, Brezhnev returned to power and cancelled a large part of the reforms (imperfectly carried out under Khrushchev).
RMK:
Dear Per Inge Oestmoen:
* What sort of crucial Soviet state secrets do you imagine the nine hikers "stumbled into" in the middle of the Northern Urals?? What such secrets could be so crucial that nine upstanding Soviet citizens would be immediately marked for assassination for inadvertently finding out something about them?? There is no infrastructure for secret business near the Dyatlov team's route, which you will recall, was officially approved. What sort of secrets would be kept there, where Mansi live and tourists trek?
* If the KGB or the military wanted to eliminate the Dyatlov hikers, they could just make them disappear. Why would they bother with the risky and error-prone method of trying to make it look like the result of hypothermia, falls, and/or snow-crush? It's certainly not unheard-of for people to vanish without a trace in the wilderness (though I admit, it's rare for that to happen to groups of 9 people).
If the DPI was the result of homicide, then I consider the Soviet intelligence services and military to be among the least likely perpetrators, along with the Mansi. I consider it much more likely that the attackers were foreign spies, or "hired muscle" guarding some illegal operation (illegal gold mining, perhaps?). I like Monsieur Reuss' idea of disaffected NKVD Stalinists.
Dear Jean Daniel Reuss: if the murder of the Dyatlov party was an act of terrorism intended to "send a message" to the central Soviet regime in Moscow, why did the attackers give the government a cover story by making the deaths seem like they could have been due to misadventure? In other words, why didn't the attackers just shoot the hikers or something like that? Then, the government would either have to suppress the entire investigation, or acknowledge that 9 young hikers were murdered in the Ural mountains. The latter scenario would be a lot more terrorizing, and the former scenario would make the hikers' families and friends a lot more suspicious.
I have another problem with homicide theories in general that I do not believe to have been discussed before on this forum. I started a thread about it, https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.0 , and would appreciate input from you gentlemen concerning it.
--- Quote from: RidgeWatcher on November 02, 2020, 04:24:46 PM ---Lyuda...was the most loyal communist in the group.
--- End quote ---
Do you know of a source for that? WAB says it's an unsubstantiated myth:
--- Quote from: WAB on November 29, 2020, 03:17:03 PM ---
--- Quote from: Naufragia on November 25, 2020, 04:07:50 AM ---I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism, just references on this forum and elsewhere on the web to secondary sources which appear to be quoting people who knew her.
--- End quote ---
You will not be able find it. Because it is bad myth, created either because people do not understand it at all, or for the purpose of political propaganda. It is necessary know and understand well everything that was related to the youth of that time, so that you can say something truthful.
In the largest number of student youth then in events such as travel, at least something used from politics. They could make jokes about something on this subject (as in their handwritten sheet) or write something about the party's congress on paper in order to let their comrades out of work at the right time. But that was the end of it. They had many other natural hobbies to pursue politics. All this I say because I saw everything in the real life of that time, not because I read somewhere in unreliable source.
--- End quote ---
Jean Daniel Reuss:
--- Quote from: RMK on December 02, 2020, 03:35:42 PM ---Reply #106.....
--- End quote ---
Part 1
I have already started to write some explanatory statements about the thread or topic that you had started.
( RMK : Theories Discussion > Murdered > A problem with homicide theories ==> November 28, 2020, 03:47:56 PM )
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg11228#msg11228
You can have a look at them here :
Jean Daniel Reuss : A problem with homicide theories ==> December 04, 2020, 07:50:43 AM --> Reply #8
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=744.msg11337#msg11337
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 2
I would like to add three brief repartees concerning part of the post:
RMK : Infrasound? Most unlikely. ==> December 02, 2020, 03:35:42 PM --> Reply #106
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg11322#msg11322
These are working hypotheses, but which little by little, as time goes, are being confirmed and become more and more probable with the reading (translating) of some of the Russian forums.
- 1 - ...why didn't the attackers just shoot the hikers or something like that ? Because the attackers had no firearm.
The attackers were former guards from the Gulag camps ( administered by the NKVD) who were specialised in hunting down the few prisoners who managed to escape.
•• In 1959, they were therefore more or less under the suspicion and more or less under the surveillance of the Soviet authorities.
•• Acquiring a firearm, whether legal or illegal, would have presented them with more disadvantages and risks than advantages.
•• Moreover, the best tool is the one you are used to and the highly trained trinome of killer pursuers, armed only with their own "blunt objects," has proved to be effective in the case of the DPI.
•• Finally, the attack by the 9 hikers on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl probably has improvised aspects insofar as it was decided after Yudi Yudin's return to Vizhay (i.e. on 30 January) and lasted around ten hours (which is proven since the 4 from the Den
were able to use the clothes of Doroshenko and Krivonoshenko who had been dead for several hours).
- 2 -...the government would ... have to suppress the entire investigation Almost impossible...
•• Despite the frequent lack of scruples on the part of its leaders, the USSR was not a bunch of disorderly gangsters. It was a great country with its Constitution, its 3 separate executive - judicial - legislative powers, its administration, its civil servants, its notables, its laws...etc...
Like everywhere else it is necessary to at least keep up appearances and all the rules are formally respected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Constitution_of_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers
•• In 1959 Khushchev was not Stalin and was keen to demonstrate to the whole world the material and moral superiority of Soviet communism.
He could not afford to violate the laws of his beloved Motherland too openly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchev:_The_Man_and_His_Era
- 3 - ...the government would ... have to acknowledge that 9 young hikers were murdered in the Ural mountains.No, the government certainly did not want to acknowledge all the shortcomings and incompetence that led to the death of the 9 hikers .(And by the way, in 2020, the Putin government does not want to admit anything either).
The list of shortcomings could look like this :
1) Security is not assured everywhere on the national territory.
2) There are many oposants to the political regime and the team that runs the country.
3) A small number of NKVD officials, therefore belonging to the state apparatus, had been depraved psychopaths (and with the encouragement of Stalin "the little father of the People").
4) The various police forces, including the KGB, had made serious mistakes in assessing the real internal situation in the country.
5) On the contrary, the official propaganda had exaggerated the "everything is going very well" aspect, there are no longer any difficulties in our beautiful country.
6) There was at least a moral responsibility on the part of the authorities close to the hikers (Route Commission, direction of the UPI, CPSU...) to have left the hikers in the illusion of perfect security.
•• The simple advice to be wary and not to talk too much could have saved the hikers' lives.
•• Or, for example, in a much more energetic manner, a pistol could have been entrusted to Zolotaryov who would certainly have known how to use it in the event of an attack.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Part 3
Because the reconstitution of Dubinina's psychological evolution seems important to me, I notice that the post of RidgeWatcher : Infrasound? Most unlikely. --> Reply #103, has detected an abnormality.
- 4 - Strange disappearance concerning the political opinions of Lyudmila Dubinina
1° ••• Concerning Lyudmila Dubinina's political convictions we can read the following comments:
RidgeWatcher :(November 02, 2020) ===> "..Lyuda...was the most loyal communist in the group...." Reply #103
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg11047#msg11047
RMK : (December 02, 2020) ===> "..Do you know of a source for that? WAB says it's an unsubstantiated myth:"
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg11322#msg11322
Naufragia : (November 25, 2020) ===> "..I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism.............."
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=739.msg11186#msg11186
WAB : (November 29, 2020) ===> "..You will not be able find it. Because it is bad myth, created either because people do not understand it at all, or for the purpose of political propaganda...."
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=739.msg11264#msg11264
2° ••• On the other hand, on the Topic where Sabine and Aleks Kandr participate:
Teddy : Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death ==> May 12, 2019, 04:31:56 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0
I am sure that I have recopied the following sentence, which has now disappeared:
"Dubinina [or Lyudmila] was also a very forthright and outspoken girl who held strong opinions. Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland. For Stalin !" It was said to her that she would not hesitate to tell someone staight to their face if she thought they were wrong in any way...."
(I do not believe I am wrong because I am very bad in English language and I would not have been able to create such a complicated statement).
See :
Jean Daniel Reuss: Victims and Case Files > Witness Testimonies > No route map ==> April 13, 2020, 02:15:02 PM --> Reply #2
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=44.msg8837#msg8837
3° ••• Conclusion: since Avril 13, 2020 the following opinion concerning Dubinina (probably coming from Arkhipov Oleg Nikolaevich) has disappeared from this website:
"Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland For Stalin !"
mk:
--- Quote from: Jean Daniel Reuss on December 05, 2020, 03:10:13 PM ---...I am sure that I have recopied the following sentence, which has now disappeared:
"Dubinina [or Lyudmila] was also a very forthright and outspoken girl who held strong opinions. Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland. For Stalin !" It was said to her that she would not hesitate to tell someone staight to their face if she thought they were wrong in any way...."
(I do not believe I am wrong because I am very bad in English language and I would not have been able to create such a complicated statement).
See : Jean Daniel Reuss: Victims and Case Files > Witness Testimonies > No route map ==> April 13, 2020, 02:15:02 PM --> Reply #2 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=44.msg8837#msg8837
3° ••• Conclusion: since Avril 13, 2020 the following opinion concerning Dubinina (probably coming from Arkhipov Oleg Nikolaevich) has disappeared from this website:
"Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland For Stalin !
--- End quote ---
Yes, I do remember reading these things. If they are speculation or exaggeration, I'm glad they've been removed.
Per Inge Oestmoen:
--- Quote from: RMK on December 02, 2020, 03:35:42 PM ---Dear Per Inge Oestmoen:
* What sort of crucial Soviet state secrets do you imagine the nine hikers "stumbled into" in the middle of the Northern Urals?? What such secrets could be so crucial that nine upstanding Soviet citizens would be immediately marked for assassination for inadvertently finding out something about them?? There is no infrastructure for secret business near the Dyatlov team's route, which you will recall, was officially approved. What sort of secrets would be kept there, where Mansi live and tourists trek?
* If the KGB or the military wanted to eliminate the Dyatlov hikers, they could just make them disappear. Why would they bother with the risky and error-prone method of trying to make it look like the result of hypothermia, falls, and/or snow-crush? It's certainly not unheard-of for people to vanish without a trace in the wilderness (though I admit, it's rare for that to happen to groups of 9 people).
--- End quote ---
1. There were secret military tests in many parts of the Urals. It is very conceivable that the Dyatlov group became witnesses to some kinds of weapon tests or military activities at the time. Another detail that lends credibility to that explanation is the fact that the Mansi evidently were subject to ostensible suspicion and preliminary interrogations, then suddenly let off the hook by means of a non-scientific and non-proven statment that the nine students had cut their own ten open - which is highly improbable to say the least. That action against the Mansi was with almost full certainty a subtle warning: "If you ever tell anyone what you saw in the area between February 1-2, you will face a grim fate."
2. The KGB were extraordinarily sophisticated and scarily competent in their creating "accidents." There could be no more intelligent way of accomplishing these killings than to let the cold do the job. It was only a short and unexpected rise in temperature in the area that prevented the murder of the nine from being a perfect mission. A mere disappearance of all the nine would likely have made the relatives, friends and superiors demand a thorough investigation and would also imply potential political unrest because every Soviet citizen knew that quite a few people who were suspected of being a threat to state security just "disappeared." The nine students were highly resourceful people, and to kill them was not a trifle. Therefore the mission had to be accomplished by means of an "accident." The operation was very skilfully executed indeed, and the fact that many people still refuse to accept that it was murder testifies to the correct judgement of the orchestrators.
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