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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Timing of leaving the tent and deaths based on the watch evidence  (Read 5213 times)

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August 11, 2020, 03:09:48 AM
Reply #30
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Nigel Evans


Reference Rustem and the ice bed, he may not have been the only one.

From this site:
 
"Rustem's body was with icy bed under from the hardening of the thawing snow. This means that the body fell when relatively still warm and there was a noticeable heat exchange into the environment. This observation and conclusion was mentioned in Akselrod's testimony, but he hasn't seen the rest of the bodies when they were found, so if Akselrod was the only one registering the fact, then the rest just might as well have icy beds that nobody testified about. At least we have one dying spot that looks like hasn't been doctored."
The chest trauma would have an associated inflammatory response which would raise his temp, so the reported evidence fits the injury profile. Zinaida was reported as "face in blood" so there was some detail.
 

August 11, 2020, 03:19:14 AM
Reply #31

eurocentric

Guest
Reference Rustem and the ice bed, he may not have been the only one.

From this site:
 
"Rustem's body was with icy bed under from the hardening of the thawing snow. This means that the body fell when relatively still warm and there was a noticeable heat exchange into the environment. This observation and conclusion was mentioned in Akselrod's testimony, but he hasn't seen the rest of the bodies when they were found, so if Akselrod was the only one registering the fact, then the rest just might as well have icy beds that nobody testified about. At least we have one dying spot that looks like hasn't been doctored."
The chest trauma would have an associated inflammatory response which would raise his temp, so the reported evidence fits the injury profile. Zinaida was reported as "face in blood" so there was some detail.

What chest trauma?

Rustem had a head injury. I have re-read his autopsy, there's little there, compared to others, to suggest he had internal injury to his chest?
 

August 11, 2020, 03:50:48 AM
Reply #32
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Nigel Evans



What chest trauma?

Rustem had a head injury. I have re-read his autopsy, there's little there, compared to others, to suggest he had internal injury to his chest?
Rustem -The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/.
Semyon - The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood.
Lyudmila - the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood.
Alexander - The pleural cavity contained up to 500 cm3 of bloody fluid.
Nicolai - The pleural cavity is free.
Igor - The pleural cavities are free.
Zina - the lungs freely lie in the pleural cavity (no other observation).


See a pattern? Rustem had suffered chest trauma but not strong enough to break bones.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 04:04:37 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

August 11, 2020, 06:38:46 PM
Reply #33
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Georgi




They are crawling uphill, so most of their body weight is shifted to their legs. They are returning to the tent for food and other items, if they do not protect their fingers they will not be able to eat, dress, do anything when they get there, due to the numbing effects of frostbite.
Try crawling on your knuckles and tell me how that goes for you. And besides they would have frostbite on their knuckles not injuries consistent with a fight as they won’t be punching the ground.

Quote
Their dominant hand would always have the worst of the fighting injuries, yet the injuries are uniform.
The injuries are on both hands, but as far as I know the autopsies did not catalogue the severity of the injuries of one hand compared to the other. If you are in a fight for your life you are using both hands, one might have lighter injuries but they would both have uniform injuries on their hands, different degrees but both hands would have them.


Quote
This petite woman would be no match against males fighting, they rarely are, yet she supposedly has the same level of fighting injuries. [/b]
And that’s the attitude that allowed her the element of surprise. Someone looked at her and through that she is a petite woman and wont be trouble, by the time he recovers from the shock she has gotten a couple of shots in maybe even knocked the guy down which is why she has the injuries to her side from what looks like a baton, no one took her seriously at first and then they made up for that by hitting her with a baton.
 

August 11, 2020, 06:42:30 PM
Reply #34
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Georgi



Rustem's has ravine style injuries including internal bleeding. Same injuries, same event?
So? He survived all night, receives unexplained head injuries in the ravine, walks 500m towards the tent and collapses and dies at roughly the same time the others died? With his head injuries and the accompanying concussion and confusion I doubt he would have made it to where he died, he would have died with the four in the ravine or would have collapsed after going in the wrong direction for a while.
 

August 11, 2020, 06:53:50 PM
Reply #35
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Georgi



What chest trauma?

Rustem had a head injury. I have re-read his autopsy, there's little there, compared to others, to suggest he had internal injury to his chest?
Rustem -The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/.
Semyon - The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood.
Lyudmila - the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood.
Alexander - The pleural cavity contained up to 500 cm3 of bloody fluid.
Nicolai - The pleural cavity is free.
Igor - The pleural cavities are free.
Zina - the lungs freely lie in the pleural cavity (no other observation).


See a pattern? Rustem had suffered chest trauma but not strong enough to break bones.
Why isn't he with the four in the ravine if he suffered the injuries the same time as theirs? Chances are he suffered a severe beating at the tent, made it a km down the slope and collapsed in the dark and died slowly thereafter, by the time anyone of the others realised he was gone they were another 500m by the tree and had no way to know at which point he had collapsed and had much more pressing concerns at that point as likely both men under the tree were in rough shape at that point.
 

August 12, 2020, 01:18:54 AM
Reply #36

eurocentric

Guest

What chest trauma?

Rustem had a head injury. I have re-read his autopsy, there's little there, compared to others, to suggest he had internal injury to his chest?
Rustem -The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/.
Semyon - The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood.
Lyudmila - the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood.
Alexander - The pleural cavity contained up to 500 cm3 of bloody fluid.
Nicolai - The pleural cavity is free.
Igor - The pleural cavities are free.
Zina - the lungs freely lie in the pleural cavity (no other observation).


See a pattern? Rustem had suffered chest trauma but not strong enough to break bones.

The most common cause of pleural effusion is congestive heart failure, and the ultimate cause of death with hypothermia is heart failure. Another cause of pleural effusion is a blood clot, and Rustem had sustained a head injury.

The pathologist cuts open the chest and inspects the internal organs, he sections them mainly to look for disease, and lists his obervations. Had there been any internal injury through "chest trauma" he would mention that. He does not mention this in his findings.

He does however suggest that something pressed on Yuri D's chest to produce the fluid around his mouth. I would suggest that would be a tearful Zina trying to resuscitate him.

We all have some fluid in our pleural cavity, its job is to lubricate the rise and fall of the lungs.

 

August 12, 2020, 01:37:57 AM
Reply #37
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sparrow


I may be wrong about this, but I would think that if you were really fighting for your life, you would be more likely to end up on the ground wrestling than standing and punching each other. Wouldn't  you be better able to really control someone if you had them on the ground, pinned.  If it was a fight with other people ( unless they were outnumbered or the others were armed), I would think that 9 young healthy people would take down the bad guys and that would be the end of it, the hikers win.  That is why I believe that the fight marks were received from the hikers fighting with each other; they fought because they were angry but not because they wanted to kill.   Also, somewhere on this forum, someone stated that some of the injuries (bruises and scrapes) were older than others, received at another time.  This does not mean that I believe they killed each other because  I don't.                                                                                 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 01:57:58 AM by sparrow »
 

August 12, 2020, 01:52:36 AM
Reply #38
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sparrow


I am a female about Zina's size and I can assure you that women do not stand a chance against men in hand to hand combat.  I took a self defense class when I was in college and if it hadn't been so maddening it would have been funny.  I know the guys thought it was (but they were nice about it). 
 

August 12, 2020, 03:23:46 AM
Reply #39
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Nigel Evans



What chest trauma?

Rustem had a head injury. I have re-read his autopsy, there's little there, compared to others, to suggest he had internal injury to his chest?
Rustem -The pleural cavity contained up to one litre of bloody liquid /effusion/.
Semyon - The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood.
Lyudmila - the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood.
Alexander - The pleural cavity contained up to 500 cm3 of bloody fluid.
Nicolai - The pleural cavity is free.
Igor - The pleural cavities are free.
Zina - the lungs freely lie in the pleural cavity (no other observation).


See a pattern? Rustem had suffered chest trauma but not strong enough to break bones.

The most common cause of pleural effusion is congestive heart failure, and the ultimate cause of death with hypothermia is heart failure. Another cause of pleural effusion is a blood clot, and Rustem had sustained a head injury. Google informs me that heart failure typically results in pleural effusion to the right side only which is not mentioned wrt Rustem. Igor and Zina are supposed to have died of cold (very credible in Igor's case) but no pleural effusion.

The pathologist cuts open the chest and inspects the internal organs, he sections them mainly to look for disease, and lists his obervations. Had there been any internal injury through "chest trauma" he would mention that. He does not mention this in his findings. He missed the hairline fracture to Semyon's shoulder blade and it is reasonable i think that similar fractures to ribs would also be missed if there is no structural issue.

He does however suggest that something pressed on Yuri D's chest to produce the fluid around his mouth. I would suggest that would be a tearful Zina trying to resuscitate him.

We all have some fluid in our pleural cavity, its job is to lubricate the rise and fall of the lungs.
 

August 12, 2020, 10:12:38 AM
Reply #40
Offline

Squatch


I would suggest because they needed sustenance, food, having burned off all their calories in the fight against the cold. They have shelter and water but not the third thing they need to survive, and their blood sugars would be dangerously low in hypothermic terms. Additionally the effects of hypothermia may have affected their decision-making process, so they set off too soon.

So my problem with going back to the tent is that it doesn't make sense. If you're abandoning the tent without taking anything other than what you're wearing at the time to try and survive the night in the woods below, then what reason would there be to change your mind hours later once hypothermia has started setting in? Going back uphill exposed in a weakened condition is speeding up freezing to death. And what made them think the situation at the tent was any better?

Maybe this is explained by their mental state, and maybe they had some reason to believe the tent situation was improved. But it remains dubious to me.
These are great questions and I have some ideas about them.

Reasons to go back up to the tent could be:

1. The severe wind/snow storm that made it look like there was an imminent avalanche has subsided.
2. You have watched six of your friends die and there seems to be no other option left.

The first choice implies a split in the group: Igor Dyatlov, Zinaida Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin want to go back to the tent (which they believe is salvageable), and the other four want to shelter in a ravine.

The second choice makes more sense to me.

Assume that Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Lyudmila Dubinina, Semyon Zolotaryov, Aleksander Kolevatov and Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle left the bodies of Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko by the fire and created a den together in a nearby ravine (Maintaining the fire was apparently not possible).

There follows a collapse of snow in and/or around the den. It is sudden; so much so that Zolotaryov might have had a pen and notebook in his hands when it happens. Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin escape it but the others are caught in it. Those caught are trampled by the mini-avalanche and are rolled down the ravine. This rolling motion and snow pressure results in the discovered injuries and accounts for the positions the bodies are found in (Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle in particular looks like he was rolling and his head had not yet caught up with the rest of his body when he stopped. Lyudmila Dubinina partially rolled over a drop-off as she came to a stop under the snow).

So if you were Dyatlov, Kolmogorova or Slobodin what now would you do? There is no safety down here, only danger. As one of them, I would hope that the tent is still there and try to go back to it.  It's either that or death.

As for the times on the watches: There's Kolevatov's watch found in a backpack in the tent that had a time of 2:15am. So I'm guessing the event that drove them out of the tent happened early in the morning. Dyatlov's watch has 5:31am. Keep in mind he was found face up with his watch much more exposed to the bitter cold. So let's say he died around 5am, with Kolmogorova and Slobodin by his side (which is why he is face up). Slobodin dies a little further up the slope, but his face is down and his watch is more insulated by being buried in the snow. It does not surprise me that his watch ticks much longer. The same goes for the watches in the ravine... they are snow-covered and more insulated.
 

August 12, 2020, 08:03:31 PM
Reply #41
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Georgi




The most common cause of pleural effusion is congestive heart failure, and the ultimate cause of death with hypothermia is heart failure. Another cause of pleural effusion is a blood clot, and Rustem had sustained a head injury.

The pathologist cuts open the chest and inspects the internal organs, he sections them mainly to look for disease, and lists his obervations. Had there been any internal injury through "chest trauma" he would mention that. He does not mention this in his findings.

He does however suggest that something pressed on Yuri D's chest to produce the fluid around his mouth. I would suggest that would be a tearful Zina trying to resuscitate him.

We all have some fluid in our pleural cavity, its job is to lubricate the rise and fall of the lungs.
He had a head injury as well as facial and hand injuries that suggest a fight because one of the two men under the tree was obviously involved in the fight and likely he didn't live well into the night. If this was late into the night after they had spend hours in the cold, exhausting themselves and weakening themselves chances are they would not have put up much of a fight.
 

August 12, 2020, 08:23:57 PM
Reply #42
Offline

Georgi


I may be wrong about this, but I would think that if you were really fighting for your life, you would be more likely to end up on the ground wrestling than standing and punching each other. Wouldn't  you be better able to really control someone if you had them on the ground, pinned.  If it was a fight with other people ( unless they were outnumbered or the others were armed), I would think that 9 young healthy people would take down the bad guys and that would be the end of it, the hikers win.  That is why I believe that the fight marks were received from the hikers fighting with each other; they fought because they were angry but not because they wanted to kill.   Also, somewhere on this forum, someone stated that some of the injuries (bruises and scrapes) were older than others, received at another time.  This does not mean that I believe they killed each other because  I don't.                                                                               

If they were targeted, whether they were targeted for a transgression at some point before or during the trek or they were targeted by a group at random or because they saw something they shouldn't have while on their hike chances are when attacked they would be attacked with overwhelming force. The overwhelming force could come in the form of numbers, fighting experience, training, firepower or surprise and it could come as a combination of those things. There were two of the nine hikers outside at the time of the incident, they would be subdued before the rest are called out, when the first four come out of the tent(Igor, Zina, Slobodin, Yuri K) something forced them into an offensive, it might have been seeing their 2 friends on the ground restrained, it might have been one of the four launching into a fight and the other 3 jumped in to help or it could have been someone did something to Zina as she came out that forced anyone or all 3 of the men outside to start a fight. They fight but quickly lose because the attackers might be stronger, trained to fight or someone fires a warning shot to stop the hikers. By the time the last 3 come out of the tent, 6 of the 9 hikers would be subdued and 1 of them would have serious head injuries. You don't need 2 to 1 odds or even 1 to 1 odds, what is needed is just enough attackers to control the hikers and some attackers with firearms outside of reach of the hikers. If someone is threatening you and they are 6m away with a pistol/rifle loaded and ready you would reconsider continuing an attack because you would be dead long before you reach the attacker, they saw a handful of attackers, started a fight lost the fight because the attackers were better trained, there were more of them or they realized that the attackers had weapons that would kill them from well outside their reach.
 

August 12, 2020, 08:29:45 PM
Reply #43
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Georgi


I am a female about Zina's size and I can assure you that women do not stand a chance against men in hand to hand combat.  I took a self defense class when I was in college and if it hadn't been so maddening it would have been funny.  I know the guys thought it was (but they were nice about it).

She doesn't have to stand a chance in hand to hand fight, all I am saying is that whoever saw her, saw a scared girl and did not see her as a threat, for whatever reason the three men initiate a fight and she joins in and gets a few good punches before she is subdued. Depending on who the attackers are the guys wouldn't have stood a better chance. Getting the injuries she had didn't mean she won a fight or held her own in the fight, it means she was likely not considered a threat until something happened to force her hand and she surprised the attacker, nothing more nothing less.
 

August 12, 2020, 08:52:46 PM
Reply #44
Offline

Georgi



These are great questions and I have some ideas about them.

Reasons to go back up to the tent could be:

1. The severe wind/snow storm that made it look like there was an imminent avalanche has subsided.
2. You have watched six of your friends die and there seems to be no other option left.

The first choice implies a split in the group: Igor Dyatlov, Zinaida Kolmogorova and Rustem Slobodin want to go back to the tent (which they believe is salvageable), and the other four want to shelter in a ravine.

The second choice makes more sense to me.

Assume that Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, Slobodin, Lyudmila Dubinina, Semyon Zolotaryov, Aleksander Kolevatov and Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle left the bodies of Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko by the fire and created a den together in a nearby ravine (Maintaining the fire was apparently not possible).

There follows a collapse of snow in and/or around the den. It is sudden; so much so that Zolotaryov might have had a pen and notebook in his hands when it happens. Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin escape it but the others are caught in it. Those caught are trampled by the mini-avalanche and are rolled down the ravine. This rolling motion and snow pressure results in the discovered injuries and accounts for the positions the bodies are found in (Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle in particular looks like he was rolling and his head had not yet caught up with the rest of his body when he stopped. Lyudmila Dubinina partially rolled over a drop-off as she came to a stop under the snow).

So if you were Dyatlov, Kolmogorova or Slobodin what now would you do? There is no safety down here, only danger. As one of them, I would hope that the tent is still there and try to go back to it.  It's either that or death.

As for the times on the watches: There's Kolevatov's watch found in a backpack in the tent that had a time of 2:15am. So I'm guessing the event that drove them out of the tent happened early in the morning. Dyatlov's watch has 5:31am. Keep in mind he was found face up with his watch much more exposed to the bitter cold. So let's say he died around 5am, with Kolmogorova and Slobodin by his side (which is why he is face up). Slobodin dies a little further up the slope, but his face is down and his watch is more insulated by being buried in the snow. It does not surprise me that his watch ticks much longer. The same goes for the watches in the ravine... they are snow-covered and more insulated.

1) I have my doubt that experienced hikers would panic about an avalanche, cut their tent and leave with pitiful amount of clothes on because that would risk them being buried alone, with little in the way of clothes and tools all over the slope. Even if they managed to dig themselves out they would still have to find the tent and their friends. In an avalanche in their situation, the best option would be to stay in the tent where 7 of them were already and their clothes and survival equipment was.

2) As for an avalanche causing the injuries of the four people in the ravine? Why only those injuries, wouldn’t an avalanche violent enough to cause those injuries cause a hell of a lot more injuries especially facial and their arms and legs? What are the chances that they would suffer these devastating injuries without any broken bones in their arms or legs.

3) Its not possible to tell the difference between am/pm on an analogue watch even if it had the am/pm dial unless you are absolutely sure that the owner of the watch would set it right. Analogue watches on the bodies could have frozen with the bodies and stopped working or since they were manual wounding watches they might have ran out of power at some point, if they all wound their watches at roughly the same time every day(evening post supper/ before bed) then it could also be that the watches all ran out of power between their last winding and the time they were found. The one in the tent was a pocket watch that ran out of power as nobody wound it for 4 weeks.

4) The experiment that was done during a later incident where more hikers died, indicated that the watches froze with the bodies not the external temperature. Some watches were left out in the elements and they continued to work without much problems until they ran out of power and they stopped working at different times, then they were placed in/on ice and then they stopped working within a relatively tight time frame. So the watches being insulated from the weather is irrelevant if the body freezes, what might throw off the timings would be how the person wore their watch, if they usually wore it over the sleeve of their shirt or they wore it very loose it might not meet the conditions to freeze.