Reply #5........
........................
No proof that any other Humans arrived at The Tent by Skis or walking.
Of course there is no proof ! And there will probably never be any.
To solve an enigma, whatever its playful or police nature, it is necessary to call on all human mental faculties to imagine one or more solutions that are capable of explaining all the known facts.
And it is likely that the state secret about DPI will last a very long time, because according to French political experts (but they are often wrong), currently in 2020, President Putin is determined not to reveal anything that could alter the reputation of previous regimes of the USSR (Stalin, Khrushchev ...) and even the reputation of the tsarist regime (Nicolas II ...) !!
...At least 4 questions arise : WHY...
- 1..hikers exit their tent....?
- 2..hikers descend the slope....?
- 3..hikers do not return to their tent....?
- 4..the cause of death of the hikers does not seem natural....?
...............................................
- 1 - Why did the Dyatlov hikers exit their tent, with mostly inadequate clothing and footwear for the Siberian winter?
• Which is the most difficult to reconstruct is the sudden and hurried exit from the tent without the short-handled axes that were inside.
Threats, e.g. with a firearm, would have warned the hikers of a danger and they would not have left the tent with their bare hands in order to defend themselves and eventually counterattack.
This is a remark first raised by alecsandros : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass -->Reply #32
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.msg9765#msg9765
• Hypothesis N°1 : By surprise the attackers made the atmosphere inside the tent unbreathable in a few tens of seconds.
It should be noted that the volume of air inside the tent is small, less than 5 m³, which makes this hypothesis N°1 particularly efficient.
The attackers (perhaps only three) triggered their first offensive just after the stove assembly was completed and the "battle sheet" "Evening otorten No. 1" was written, but before the hikers had time to fire the wood in the stove. Several possibilities :
a) The attackers put a tear gas or a suffocating gas hand grenedade coming from the stocks of the army, the police, the guarding of the Gulag camps or bought illegally on the black market.
b) The attackers used an Improvised Suffocating Device, for instance : 2.KNO³ + 4.S --> 3.SO² + N² + K²S or 2.KClO³ + 3.S --> 3.SO² + 2.KCl
KNO³, KClO³ and S are very common products that could easily be bought in the Ivdel drugstore.
c) According to the more enigmatic of Anatoly Stepochkin the attackers launched "some kind of dope inside" the tent. See :
https://dyatlovpass.com/dmitriy-borisov-2019-02-12
• Hypothesis N°2 : The exit of the tent without the axes can be explained by cunning (trickery, deception, false flag...).
The attackers won the hikers' trust and recognition (during the first few minutes) with many kind and compassionate words.
A famous example of a ruse to succeed in killing a victim on his guard is the murder of Leon Trotsky by Ramon mercader, who for several months managed to convince Trosky of his deep friendship (in order to be in a position to hit him mortally with a short-handled ice axe).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader
To render this hypothesis N°2 more concretely here is an additional imaginary short tale whose spirit must be retained and not the letter.
In the tent on the slope of the Kholat Syakl, in the darkness, on February 1, 1959, around 8 pm, unexpectedly the 9 hikers heard... the leader of the (probably only 3) attackers - who was a good comedian - who shouted in a firm but almost panicky voice :
- Sorry to bother you here.
- You do not know me, but I am the general in charge of missile tests in the Sverdlovsk region...
( or Ivdel ...or xxx base ...there, to be more credible, the false and misleading speech can add some details about the current state of Soviet military technology in 1959. These are precisions or details which are certainly known by any student of the UPI.
( It is the "art" of deception (cheating) to incorporate exact details known to the person you want to fool (deceive) into the main important lie).
- The place where you set up your tent three hours ago must be cleared immediately.
- We have lost control of an experimental missile (here indication of a model that might be known to hikers) and I personally rush to warn you :
- I have just learned that the latest prediction calculations indicate that the mad explosive projectile will fall exactly where your tent is. Luckily we succeeded in finding you so that we could warn you in time!
- Hurry! Hurry! We must all leave immediately, otherwise death is assured. Let us all go down quickly in the taiga where there is almost no wind. It is very close. (close ! : a little lie that goes unnoticed despite the fact that Dyatlov knew his position on the slope).
After hearing these friendly words, the hikers feel grateful to these new friends who come running in the bad weather and the darkness to save their lives.
So the 9 hickers leaved the tent immediately, (so to speak instinctively, because in case of unforeseen danger we have to react quickly), thinking that they will be able to go back in a few minutes.
It is here that it is useful to read Vietnamka : General Discussion / Clothes => « on: March 26, 2019, 09:35:48 AM »
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=396.msg4583#msg4583
"...Acute phase of stress.
At this moment, in the cerebral cortex is formed a center of dominant arousal, all human mental activity is directed towards one thing - to get out from under the influence, to weaken its effect, to cope.
If the house is on fire - people jump out in shorts and do not think that they will be cold. If there is a child in the house, the mother in the nightgown will run around the house and scream, not realizing how she looks and that she is cold.
This is always accompanied by changes in the endocrine function (adrenaline is released) and the autonomic nervous system (the pupils dilate or contract, the heart begins to beat, the pressure rises, etc.).
It is a fact that all these reactions are also protective against cold - heat production increases and a person not only may not feel cold, but may be feel hot.
............"
And thus all the 12 (3 attackers + 9 hikers) people started to descend along the line of greatest slope without undue haste (a military expression indicating that awareness of danger does not imply panic).
- 2 - Having exited their tent under-dressed, why did the Dyatlov hikers descend the slope, moving away from their tent...
• The snow-covered ground was slippery but quite hard. There was a slight downhill slope without deep holes.
For the first few minutes the hikers were not weakened by the intense cold. The hikers were sporty, young, agile and trained.
They had an excellent sense of balance and even if they stumbled on a slippery obstacle they got up immediately.
So I think the trip from the cedar tent (1500m) in complete darkness took less than 10 minutes (contrary to recent other opinions, look at GKM, WAB....).
During this time the hikers could not calmly think about their strange situation.
• The attackers accompanied the hikers towards the cedar by making them believe that they were going to help them, or,
• on the contrary, threatening them and starting to hit them.
The attackers compelled the hikers to go down the slope by hitting them with blunt wooden objects judiciously carved (length=110 cm and weight=4 kg being held with two hand.
If the attackers were strong it is probably enough to use 70 cm and 1.5 kg being held with one hands.
In each case the energy of a blow can reach several hundred joules.
• 300 m before reaching the cedar, the attackers disappeared in the night and the hikers found themselves alone.
- 3 - Having descended the slope, why did the Dyatlov hikers not return to their tent ?
• It is there at the foot of the cedar that the hikers were fully aware that they had been fooled by the attackers
So a discussion begins and the separation of the 9 hikers into 2 groups occurs.
( Another senario is possible in which Kolmogorova, then Slobodin, have already been put out of action on the slope and lie unconscious in the 2 places where their bodies were found. In this case there are only 7 hikers remaining at the foot of the cedar).
• Climbing up to find the tent was difficult in complete darkness: there was a great risk of passing within a few meters (e.g. 10 meters) of the tent without seeing it. And then there were no landmarks afterwards.
You do not know where to search anymore: Where to go ? climbing up ? Going down ? Going left ? Going right ?
• Zolotaryov (the oldest ...), Kolevatov (sojourn at Moscow ...), Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle (repression of his father Vladimir Iosifovich ...) are the most aware of the internal political situation of the USSR and think that the mysterious attackers are determined and really dangerous for their live .
Zolotaryov, Kolevatov and Thibeaux-Brignolle therefore decide to go into hiding as best they can a little further away by building the Den and also persuade Dubinina to accompany them (for a reason which remains to be clarified).
• On the contrary, Dyatlov, Doroshenko and Krivonishenko (the least politically aware) believed that the strange attackers were simply thieves who would leave after taking away the contents of the tent.
It was useless to try to go back up and risk receiving a knife wound.
So much for the hike, which was ruined. It would be relatively easy to go back through the nearby Labaz (full of food) and afterwards return safely to the Settlement 41.
The most important thing to do immediatly is not to freeze to death and they choose in priority to light a fire.
• But when the attackers resumed their offensive around midnight at the foot of the cedar ................
...............to be continued at : Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass.
- 4 - the assailants were intelligent ...... and wanted to make the Dyatlov team's deaths appear as natural as possible
• Deaths appear as natural as possible ==> On the contrary, the aim of the assailants was to make Khrushchev's government in Moscow understand perfectly that the massacre of the 9 hikers was a ferocious terrorist attack.
• Assailants ==> Not necessarily very intelligent. The assailants knew above all how to hit hard with blunt objects (possibly wrapped in cloths) and judiciously adapted to be effectively grasped by the hands (important practical detail to use blunt objects as weapons).
• It should also be understood that the attackers were armed with rudimentary blunt objects and were also few in number. Probably only 3 mercenaries had been sent to the slope of the Kholat Syakhl by a rich commander, client, boss, sponsor... who had remained in Vizhay, (See also Aleks Kandr).
That is why I should logically write my posts in the Topic : Altercation on the pass and not in the Topic : Murdered.
So to speak, the movements of the Stalinists opposed to the Khrushchev Thaw were in the throes of a rout in 1959. (The Stalinist opposition of the former NKVD officer regained strength only with the coming to power of Brezhnev in 1964).
• Look also at : Infra-sound/Gravity fluctuation/Teleportation => Infrasound? Most unlikely -> December 02,2020, 02:13:51 PM : Reply #105
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg11320#msg11320[/list]
This topic=744.0 is a continuation of the first posts sent by ninja, unfortunately in Russian, which makes these posts difficult to understand for the ignorant like me (I use Russian -> French machine translation software. I hope ninja will be able to use English -> Russian software). So preferably start by reading the topic=753.0 :
Dyatlov Pass Forum > Theories Discussion > General Discussion > real timeline (реальная хронология)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=753.0
Reply #4
Ninja. What is that you are actually trying to say ! ?
Nevertheless, I think that I have understood the most important thing. ninja explains to us that the hikers were slowed down by the deep soft snow in the Auspiya valley. That is why, during the last 2 days (January 31 and February 1), the hikers were only able to progress over a very short distance and also why the hikers did not have time to write in their diary.
ninja will also soon explain why he suspects that Zolotaryov is playing a disastrous role...(I may be mistaken).
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
I agree, the photos " N°11 and N°12, Loose photos, https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos ", of the intallation of a tent were taken on the evening of January 30 and NOT on the evening of February 1.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-11.jpg)
It does not matter where the tent is exactly located on the night of January 30 to January 31.
ninja indicates this location by the red cross with the indication "30.01" on the map below.
In my opinion the location of the tent could also be two kilometres further south, at the end of the purple line.
(https://i.ibb.co/K2mDXQx/image.jpg)
The hikers found themselves in a very soft snow, which made the progression difficult and slow even with skis.
It was this kind of soft snow, but it is not the same place :
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-327.jpg)
See also :
Manti : Theories Discussion > General Discussion > Walking a km in deep snow
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=740.0
Remark N°1 : The Mansis seem to be better equipped for winter than the hikers --> wider skis, thicker clothes....
Remark N°2
• While approaching the summits of the Kholat Syakhl (1079) and Otorten by the Auspiya valley the hikers probably followed a short itinerary in distances but longer in time because they had to cross deep and soft snow areas.
It is a "slow" itinerary but sheltered from the wind, which I will henceforth call "the Auspiya Valley itinerary".
• On the contrary, the hikers would probably have been faster (would have taken less time) if they had skied on the hard snow, above the taiga, on the hillsides, following the crest line defined by the peaks :
706 - 833 - 813 - 968 -937 - 1034 - 1051 - 994 - 1079(Kholat Syakhl)
These peaks are visible on the above good map sent by ninja
This route may start with the dotted line (east to west) at the bottom right of the map.
This is a "fast"route on hard snow but exposed to cold wind, which I will henceforth call "the ridge itinerary".
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The arguments of ninja - if I have understood correctly - are based on the fact that we probably do not have any photos or writing on diaries made after January 30, since the "Leaflet Evening Otorten N°1" was recopied and so the date could have been easily changed.
However I think that the details, certainly interesting, which are brought by ninja do not prove that the hikers were not killed during the night of February 1 to February 2.
On the contrary, I think that the hikers were very much alive on January 31 and February 1. After the 30th of January the hikers peacefully went on their way and set up the tent where the rescuers found it on the Kholat Syakhl slope on the evening of the 1st of February.
• Because how else to explain this picture of the tent :
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-009.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-008.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-005.jpg)
• And also how to explain the presence of the Labaz containing 50 kg of food, which took several hours to install on the evening of January 31 or on the morning of February 1.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-labaz-01.jpg)
• And also how to explain the location of the corpses of Kolgomora, Slobodin and Dyatlov on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl (because according to my hypothesis N°3 nobody made the effort to move the bodies away from the place where they fell, stunned or mortally wounded, and never stood up again).
This topic=744.0 is a continuation of the first posts sent by ninja, unfortunately in Russian, which makes these posts difficult to understand for the ignorant like me (I use Russian -> French machine translation software. I hope ninja will be able to use English -> Russian software). So preferably start by reading the topic=753.0 :
Dyatlov Pass Forum > Theories Discussion > General Discussion > real timeline (реальная хронология)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=753.0
Reply #4
Ninja. What is that you are actually trying to say ! ?
Nevertheless, I think that I have understood the most important thing. ninja explains to us that the hikers were slowed down by the deep soft snow in the Auspiya valley. That is why, during the last 2 days (January 31 and February 1), the hikers were only able to progress over a very short distance and also why the hikers did not have time to write in their diary.
ninja will also soon explain why he suspects that Zolotaryov is playing a disastrous role...(I may be mistaken).
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
I agree, the photos " N°11 and N°12, Loose photos, https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos ", of the intallation of a tent were taken on the evening of January 30 and NOT on the evening of February 1.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-11.jpg)
It does not matter where the tent is exactly located on the night of January 30 to January 31.
ninja indicates this location by the red cross with the indication "30.01" on the map below.
In my opinion the location of the tent could also be two kilometres further south, at the end of the purple line.
(https://i.ibb.co/K2mDXQx/image.jpg)
The hikers found themselves in a very soft snow, which made the progression difficult and slow even with skis.
It was this kind of soft snow, but it is not the same place :
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-327.jpg)
See also :
Manti : Theories Discussion > General Discussion > Walking a km in deep snow
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=740.0
Remark N°1 : The Mansis seem to be better equipped for winter than the hikers --> wider skis, thicker clothes....
Remark N°2
• While approaching the summits of the Kholat Syakhl (1079) and Otorten by the Auspiya valley the hikers probably followed a short itinerary in distances but longer in time because they had to cross deep and soft snow areas.
It is a "slow" itinerary but sheltered from the wind, which I will henceforth call "the Auspiya Valley itinerary".
• On the contrary, the hikers would probably have been faster (would have taken less time) if they had skied on the hard snow, above the taiga, on the hillsides, following the crest line defined by the peaks :
706 - 833 - 813 - 968 -937 - 1034 - 1051 - 994 - 1079(Kholat Syakhl)
These peaks are visible on the above good map sent by ninja
This route may start with the dotted line (east to west) at the bottom right of the map.
This is a "fast"route on hard snow but exposed to cold wind, which I will henceforth call "the ridge itinerary".
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The arguments of ninja - if I have understood correctly - are based on the fact that we probably do not have any photos or writing on diaries made after January 30, since the "Leaflet Evening Otorten N°1" was recopied and so the date could have been easily changed.
However I think that the details, certainly interesting, which are brought by ninja do not prove that the hikers were not killed during the night of February 1 to February 2.
On the contrary, I think that the hikers were very much alive on January 31 and February 1. After the 30th of January the hikers peacefully went on their way and set up the tent where the rescuers found it on the Kholat Syakhl slope on the evening of the 1st of February.
• Because how else to explain this picture of the tent :
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-009.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-008.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-005.jpg)
• And also how to explain the presence of the Labaz containing 50 kg of food, which took several hours to install on the evening of January 31 or on the morning of February 1.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-labaz-01.jpg)
• And also how to explain the location of the corpses of Kolgomora, Slobodin and Dyatlov on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl (because according to my hypothesis N°3 nobody made the effort to move the bodies away from the place where they fell, stunned or mortally wounded, and never stood up again).
Lets take it back a step. Why do we think the murderers wanted to make it look "natural"? As far as I can tell, we get that because there seem to be many easier & quicker ways of killing people. (They weren't shot or stabbed, for example.) But there is very little about their actual injuries that looks natural. Additionally, as you point out, no effort was made to provide an excuse for their injuries, or for their leaving the tent. According to this theory, someone went to great trouble to cover up their own presence at the site, but no trouble at all to provide plausible excuses for the hikers leaving the tent or sustaining such injuries.
It looks to me, then, if this was the case, that the killers were only concerned with a very superficial "fooling" of the public. KGB killers had to have known that autopsies would be done--and that the injuries of the hikers would be suspicious. This implies that the killers felt responsible for not leaving any screamingly obvious signs of their own presence, but were relying on officials to make sure everything was properly swept under the rug in the end.
And, perhaps, that was done.
Personally, I am unconvinced by this theory. Partly because of what I posted earlier about simpler ways of killing people, but also because of the responses of the families at the time.
I feel that the families' responses are usually a good guess when it comes to things like this. Guesses, yes. But they have intimate knowledge of the personalities of the hikers, as well as what to expect from the culture and the government. KGB Killers were quite well known to exist. It was known that the government could make people disappear. But the families seem much more concerned with the possibility of weapons testing. While not a definitive answer, in my opinion, this lends a bit of weight to that theory.
While the families didn't have access to the specifications of the tragedy in the same way we do, they had the advantage of living at the same time, in the same place, and knowing the people involved. This can be very important when it comes to understanding why people behave in curious ways.
you did not quite understand my thoughts correctly, I will try to master the translator better, I did not claim that something slowed down the tourists, I prove the opposite, the tourists were ahead of schedule, at the expense of the car to the 41st block, the horse to the 2nd north, the trail almost to the mountain, there can be no question of any delays, photos, tracks, diaries prove where and when the group was, in order to confuse these facts and adjust everything to the 1-2 number, an unknown diary was written, a warehouse with food was created, the evening was torn off, irrefutable evidence, I will try to bring them all in a convenient form
not made where you are, as well as the Dyatlov group, and this again can be proved, a group of 9 people will definitely leave traces of their arrival and vital activity, for example, a bonfire, a trampled area, felled branches, none of this is in the location "warehouse", there are just personal belongings of the group, far from the most voluminous and heavy, and which could well be useful if the group thought to make a warehouse, besides, they will not have time to die in time, starting from the expected you positions, 6-8 hours to get ready, get up, decompose, go down, make a fire, make a deck and eventually freeze ? strives for the impossible
Reply #59
.........................
I think that there is a high possibility that they were crushed after finding or digging a snow hole.
If I understand correctly you are supporting the hypothesis that the fatal injuries to the 4 of the Den are the consequences of a natural collapse of the hardened snow above them.
Conversely, you will be aware that I am a proponent of the criminal explanation for the DPI (the TOKEB theory). In other words, I am convinced that there is no problem with the homicide theory. Here is a remark that allows us to think that there was the intervention of other people.
First it seems that the 4 of the Den had decided to wait and hide in the ravine (small valley) near the cedar.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-Aleexenkov-map-cropped.png)
To be able to stay a long time in the Den without getting cold they had judiciously built 4 small beds of branches, (probably following the advice of Zolotaryov).
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-11-thumb.jpg)(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-10.jpg)
The bed of branches consisted of 14 fir tree branches and one birch, and on top were belongings and clothes.
The clothes included:
One leg of a pair of black ski trousers;
A thick brown woolen sweater;
A white woolen jumper, made in China; and
A pair of brown trousers tied at the ankles but flared open with a tear to widen them.
I then assume that you do not object to the visual reconstruction of Vasilii-Zyadik, who has certainly worked as rigorously as possible in constructing his instructive synthesized images.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-12.jpg) (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-05.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-05.jpg)
Therefore a question is mandatory :
How could the corpses have been moved by a natural cause while the beds of branches seem not to have moved?
In 2013 Askinadzi published a letter in Ural Stalker magazine, in which he recalls that the distance between all the heads of those found in the brook was about 30 cm (about 11.5") – they were all very close to each other.
On the contrary, this grouping of the four corpses can easily be explained by the final action of "outsiders" who threw, or rather flung, chucked, the corpses into a place (or a hole like a pit) located below.
Once their work was done, the murderers wanted to tidy things up and also align the corpses to make absolutely for sure that there were 4 of them, because 9, minus the previous 5 = 4.
• Only Kolevatov was not quite dead yet and was able to turn a bit on Zolotaryov in a last and almost involuntary movement.
• By coincidence, there was a small difference in level at this point and Dubinina slipped and ended up in the bizarre kneeling position that we know.
mk : December 04, 2020, 03:34:13 AM Reply #7
it strikes me that the killers were rather unconcerned about making things look natural.
Conventional vocabulary used : "ravine's Four" - Den - Ravine
••• The "ravine's Four" = Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov.
••• The Den = the location where the 4 beds of brushwood cut on May 4 or 5, 1959 were found.l'endroit où ont été trouvé les 4 lits de branchage les 4 ou 5 mai 1959.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-11-thumb.jpg)
••• The Ravine = the location where the 4 corpses of the "ravine's Four" were found on May 5, 1959.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-17.jpg) (https://i.ibb.co/y8MjZRd/6S-43.jpg)
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
7 meters is the distance Den <--> Ravine following Vassilii Zyadik
Do you agree with Vassilii Zyadik's synthetic image reconstruction ?
If you agree then the Den is located 7 meters upstream from the Ravine .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(In the following I will refer to this location found on May 4 or 5 as: the Den-Ravine.)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine.png)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-profile-4.png)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-14.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-08.jpg)
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
less snow on February 2 than on May 5
Reply #82
............ there was less snow when they started sheltering there, and snow cover significantly increased after the incident,[February 2]....
It is impossible to know exactly how deep the snow was at the Ravine on February 2, 1959, i.e. 3 months before the discovery of Dubinina's corpse on May 5 by Askenadzi (« I...saw a piece of meat on the hook...»).
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
But we can nevertheless be sure that there was less snow on February 2 than on May 5 !
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The natural and progressive evolution of powder snow into hard and compact snow
Reply #83
..... Especially if it has been hardened by compression. Again think of the snow after sliding off a roof of a house , it's stays hard on the ground. Similar to the snow left by snow ploughs at the side of the road.
Yes. It is also necessary to take into account the alternation of freezing and thawing...
The natural evolution of freshly fallen powdery snow to progressively turn into hard, compact snow and then slowly into real ice is well known........
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Névé is a young, granular type of snow which has been partially melted, refrozen and compacted, yet precedes the form of ice. This type of snow is associated with glacier formation through the process of nivation.[1] Névé that survives a full season of ablation turns into firn, which is both older and slightly denser. Firn eventually becomes glacial ice – the long-lived, compacted ice that glaciers are composed of.[2] Glacier formation can take days to years depending on freeze-thaw factors.........
Névé has a minimum density of 500 kg/m3...
So no need to invoke sloped house roofs or snow ploughs on at the side on roads that were not in the area around the cedar.
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Some deceptive photos that are misleading
The location of the Ravine (= the location of the corpses of the "ravine's Four" remained totally unknown until May 4 or 5, 1959.
(what is certain is that the Den was found before the Ravine).
According to Askenadzi :
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
• On the discovery of the Den :
...These branches, as it were, indicated the path from the chopped fir-trees to the ravine [in fact it was the Den]. It turned out that the hikers cut off the branches and dragged them into the ravine [the Den], losing some debris of the branches along the way. Where the path ended, there we started digging. The snow was wet, caked. We cut down blocks and took them out. That’s how we found the den. With trembling hands - thinking that we will now find the guys - we scooped up the snow. When we saw an empty den, it became very painful. Where are they? ......
• On the discovery of the Ravine :
...We had professional emergency avalanche probes designed to search for bodies. There is a hook at the end. It is necessary to poke, turn and pull it back. Mostly we pulled moss with the hook. And then I took out the probe and saw a piece of meat on the hook ....
Mihail Sharavin as well as Vladimir Borzenkov have failed to identify the location of the area "Den-Ravine".
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy?flp=1#ravine
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-borzenkov
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-4.png)(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-map-Borzenkov_1.png)
This explains why there are still photos that evoke some kind of ice cliff which are therefore misleading because they have nothing to do with the DPI.
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1541557114.jpg)
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1368893334.jpg)
Forget these misleading photos
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The correct location of the Den-Ravine recovered after 1959
According to what I could read (or understand) on the present website of [/b]Teddy[/b], it is Shura Alekseenkov and Sasha KAN who have finally really located the Den-Ravine in 2011 and 2016.
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine
Schematic plan of the area
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-Shura-video-on-Aleexenkov-map.png)(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-Aleexenkov-map-cropped.png)
Photos of the Den in the background and the Ravine in the foreground (but only) during summer 2016 from shura and Sacha.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-04.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-17.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-19.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-20.jpg)
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1533926822.jpg)
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Here are a few troublesome questions about the collapse theory
Reply #83
...............................
Depending on how the snow and wind fell
at the ravine, I believe that the snow could easily make a snow bridge . It happens in nature , the stream could still run free underneath any snow.
...............................................
I did not understand exactly the scenario that you ( Ziljoe ) are defending.
It seems to me that you are inspired by the wolverine theory that Igor B exposes in the 112 pages of discussion on the website
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
There are today, May 29, 2022, 2231 posts unfortunately in Russian.
But thankfully Ziljoe offered us a quick summary.
Ziljoe : Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> They were NOT crushed by snow March 25, 2021, 10:24:15 PM - Reply #41
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=858.msg14426#msg14426
« From what I can astatine and in a very basic explanation , the ravine 4 were possibly the first to die. The area is very different today than how it was 60 years ago with vegetation. The nature of the wind would blow the snow over the ravine. (Igor shows an example photo) . It is possible that there was a natural snow cave over the ravine. It is suggested that the may have dug out some more snow and made the roof of the cave too flat which makes it more likely to collapse. The reason they are found the way they were is because they were sheltering themselves and using the coats to cover each other, or sharing them. It doesn't mean they were lying in the stream and there may have been some migration of the bodies when the thawing started.
If there was a couple of meters of snow above them and it collapsed , it could explain the broken ribs and maybe the eyes being forced out as Dona has suggested. Igor B explains a lot of this and why there are less damage to their hands and why only one side of the ribs are broken. Igor B explains the nature of the snow in a collapse and how it becomes harder and more compact.
It was identified at the time of digging them out that the snow was hard».
Please note that the judgement of Askenadzi is interesting here:
«I do not think they could have dug a hole and a cave with their bare hands. They may have trampled a small pit for the den, and after that it snowed on top. The depth is about right...».
•••
In a nutshell, the theory of Igor B explains well the exit from the tent but does not convince me on the issue of the causes of the injuries of the 9 hikers commented by Tumanov.
•••
- How to explain the natural formation, on February 1, of a cave or an arch (snow bridge) large enough to hold 4 people ?
In my opinion, the water that could, perhaps, flow under the snow, on February 1, would produce a quite insufficient space.
There would be at most 1 cm between the ceiling of hardened snow (almost ice) and the water (at the temperature of melting ice i.e. 0° C) that would flow underneath.
•••
About the hypothetical voluntary displacement of 7 meters of the "ravine's Four" which leave the Den to go and settle at the Ravine.
- Who built the Den's four branch beds? Was it not the "ravine's Four" on the initiative of Zolotaryov ?
- Why build these 4 beds of branches, which certainly required time and effort since the "ravine's Four" had no tools and only one pair of gloves ?
- Why would they want to leave the 4 beds of branches ?
- How, probably in complete darkness, did they hope to find a better protected place ?
- Why would the "ravine's Four" have chosen this particularly unsuitable place since there was a waterfall of 70 centimeters high ?
- Why was Dubinina found, on May 5, in a position in the direction of the current, thus perpendicular to the three others that were across ?
- Why, after having chosen to settle in this hypothetical cellar that they considered safer, did the ceiling suddenly collapse on them ?
- ...etc.
(On the contrary with my criminal theory TOKEB (Tumanov + Oestmoen + Kandr + EBE + BottledBrunette) all these questions, and others, disappear since they are not even posed ! ).
Practical warning: as my Reply #84 is too long, I will add later some instructive pictures for the aspect of the Den-Ravine which are provided by Igor B on the website : http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
Conventional vocabulary used : "ravine's Four" - Den - Ravine
••• The "ravine's Four" = Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle, Zolotaryov, Kolevatov.
••• The Den = the location where the 4 beds of brushwood cut on May 4 or 5, 1959 were found.l'endroit où ont été trouvé les 4 lits de branchage les 4 ou 5 mai 1959.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-11-thumb.jpg)
••• The Ravine = the location where the 4 corpses of the "ravine's Four" were found on May 5, 1959.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-17.jpg) (https://i.ibb.co/y8MjZRd/6S-43.jpg)
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
7 meters is the distance Den <--> Ravine following Vassilii Zyadik
Do you agree with Vassilii Zyadik's synthetic image reconstruction ? It could be correct.
If you agree then the Den is located 7 meters upstream from the Ravine .I'm not sure of the relevance?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(In the following I will refer to this location found on May 4 or 5 as: the Den-Ravine.)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine.png)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-profile-4.png)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-14.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-Vasilii-Zyadik-08.jpg)
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
less snow on February 2 than on May 5
Reply #82
............ there was less snow when they started sheltering there, and snow cover significantly increased after the incident,[February 2]....
It is impossible to know exactly how deep the snow was at the Ravine on February 2, 1959, i.e. 3 months before the discovery of Dubinina's corpse on May 5 by Askenadzi (« I...saw a piece of meat on the hook...»).
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
But we can nevertheless be sure that there was less snow on February 2 than on May 5 !
How can you be sure? Less snow where? May was the time of thawing ,so I would argue on the whole, there would be less snow in May than February? Would there be more snow in June than may? The snow depth will change with the wind on exposed areas. Given the fact that the searchers found raised footprints , suggesting wind/ snow errosion or drifting but the 3 bodies on the slope were found under different levels of snow suggests the level changes quickly on exposed areas.The ravine area would just fill up with snow to the levels of the surrounding terrain. That might have happened in November the previous year? ( I don't know exactly when the snow starts to fall n the area but I'm guessing it started long before January).
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The natural and progressive evolution of powder snow into hard and compact snow
Reply #83
..... Especially if it has been hardened by compression. Again think of the snow after sliding off a roof of a house , it's stays hard on the ground. Similar to the snow left by snow ploughs at the side of the road.
Yes. It is also necessary to take into account the alternation of freezing and thawing...
The natural evolution of freshly fallen powdery snow to progressively turn into hard, compact snow and then slowly into real ice is well known........
I'll disagree here. Not all fresh snow is powdery. It can be wet and of many different consistencies. The compression concept is with regards to friction and heat. Snow in an avalanche changes and goes hard. Less air and friction ? Like wise depending on the temperature, ( think snowballs) you can get snowballs that you can make into a lump of ice that hurt when one receives it or snow that just won't stick or compress and falls apart? So think of a mass of 2 meters of snow above falling a meter?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Névé is a young, granular type of snow which has been partially melted, refrozen and compacted, yet precedes the form of ice. This type of snow is associated with glacier formation through the process of nivation.[1] Névé that survives a full season of ablation turns into firn, which is both older and slightly denser. Firn eventually becomes glacial ice – the long-lived, compacted ice that glaciers are composed of.[2] Glacier formation can take days to years depending on freeze-thaw factors.........
Névé has a minimum density of 500 kg/m3...
So no need to invoke sloped house roofs or snow ploughs on at the side on roads that were not in the area around the cedar.
It's an example of what happens to snow when it compresses, gravity or being forced together.
Think of the consistency of snow that drops that is maybe slightly wet. It compresses , goes hard as the air has gone. ( Snowballs again) . Then logically follow on to broken ribs, bodies under hard snow, chest cavity is the most vulnerable. Then look at the report of the ravine 4 having to be dug out of hard snow. As for eyes etc , look at the report of the decaying bodies , in may, in running water. Then explain why there was more snow in May than in February?( That doesn't make sense) The photos show there was exposed grass land in May? Plus I think ,if I remember correctly it was the searchers that found the pathway, rags of clothes etc after thawing( less snow) that led them to look in the "den/ravine" area?
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Some deceptive photos that are misleading
The location of the Ravine (= the location of the corpses of the "ravine's Four" remained totally unknown until May 4 or 5, 1959.
(what is certain is that the Den was found before the Ravine).
According to Askenadzi :
https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461
• On the discovery of the Den :
...These branches, as it were, indicated the path from the chopped fir-trees to the ravine [in fact it was the Den]. It turned out that the hikers cut off the branches and dragged them into the ravine [the Den], losing some debris of the branches along the way. Where the path ended, there we started digging. The snow was wet, caked. We cut down blocks and took them out. That’s how we found the den. With trembling hands - thinking that we will now find the guys - we scooped up the snow. When we saw an empty den, it became very painful. Where are they? ......
• On the discovery of the Ravine :
...We had professional emergency avalanche probes designed to search for bodies. There is a hook at the end. It is necessary to poke, turn and pull it back. Mostly we pulled moss with the hook. And then I took out the probe and saw a piece of meat on the hook ....
Mihail Sharavin as well as Vladimir Borzenkov have failed to identify the location of the area "Den-Ravine".
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy?flp=1#ravine
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-borzenkov
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-4.png)(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-map-Borzenkov_1.png)
This explains why there are still photos that evoke some kind of ice cliff which are therefore misleading because they have nothing to do with the DPI.
Photo is not working for me, as I can't see this one.
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1541557114.jpg)
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1368893334.jpg)
Forget these misleading photos
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The correct location of the Den-Ravine recovered after 1959
According to what I could read (or understand) on the present website of [/b]Teddy[/b], it is Shura Alekseenkov and Sasha KAN who have finally really located the Den-Ravine in 2011 and 2016.
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine
Schematic plan of the area
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-Shura-video-on-Aleexenkov-map.png)(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-ravine-Aleexenkov-map-cropped.png)
Photos of the Den in the background and the Ravine in the foreground (but only) during summer 2016 from shura and Sacha.
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-04.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-17.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-19.jpg)
(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/den-20.jpg)
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1533926822.jpg)
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Here are a few troublesome questions about the collapse theory
Reply #83
...............................
Depending on how the snow and wind fell
at the ravine, I believe that the snow could easily make a snow bridge . It happens in nature , the stream could still run free underneath any snow.
...............................................
I did not understand exactly the scenario that you ( Ziljoe ) are defending.
https://www.mountaineers.org/blog/unseen-danger-navigating-snow-bridge-hazards
Snow bridges exist.
It seems to me that you are inspired by the wolverine theory that Igor B exposes in the 112 pages of discussion on the website
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
I'm inspired by Igor b's logic but I read everything also. I'm happy for all things to be questioned. Igor b argues a strong case.
There are today, May 29, 2022, 2231 posts unfortunately in Russian.
My software instantly translates any language, never been a problem.
But thankfully Ziljoe offered us a quick summary.
Ziljoe : Theories Discussion -> General Discussion -> They were NOT crushed by snow March 25, 2021, 10:24:15 PM - Reply #41
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=858.msg14426#msg14426
« From what I can astatine and in a very basic explanation , the ravine 4 were possibly the first to die. The area is very different today than how it was 60 years ago with vegetation. The nature of the wind would blow the snow over the ravine. (Igor shows an example photo) . It is possible that there was a natural snow cave over the ravine. It is suggested that the may have dug out some more snow and made the roof of the cave too flat which makes it more likely to collapse. The reason they are found the way they were is because they were sheltering themselves and using the coats to cover each other, or sharing them. It doesn't mean they were lying in the stream and there may have been some migration of the bodies when the thawing started.
If there was a couple of meters of snow above them and it collapsed , it could explain the broken ribs and maybe the eyes being forced out as Dona has suggested. Igor B explains a lot of this and why there are less damage to their hands and why only one side of the ribs are broken. Igor B explains the nature of the snow in a collapse and how it becomes harder and more compact.
It was identified at the time of digging them out that the snow was hard».
Please note that the judgement of Askenadzi is interesting here:
«I do not think they could have dug a hole and a cave with their bare hands. They may have trampled a small pit for the den, and after that it snowed on top. The depth is about right...».
I'm suggesting they found a hole/cavity.
•••
In a nutshell, the theory of Igor B explains well the exit from the tent but does not convince me on the issue of the causes of the injuries of the 9 hikers commented by Tumanov.
Igor b explains a lot of the injuries and why. Certainly more than a sharpened spoon to remove eyes....
•••
- How to explain the natural formation, on February 1, of a cave or an arch (snow bridge) large enough to hold 4 people ?
In my opinion, the water that could, perhaps, flow under the snow, on February 1, would produce a quite insufficient space.
See the link to snow bridges above.
There would be at most 1 cm between the ceiling of hardened snow (almost ice) and the water (at the temperature of melting ice i.e. 0° C) that would flow underneath.
•••
About the hypothetical voluntary displacement of 7 meters of the "ravine's Four" which leave the Den to go and settle at the Ravine.
- Who built the Den's four branch beds? Was it not the "ravine's Four" on the initiative of Zolotaryov ?
- Why build these 4 beds of branches, which certainly required time and effort since the "ravine's Four" had no tools and only one pair of gloves ?
The could of used their feet. All 9 of them could have helped. It might have been 6 of them , who knows.
- Why would they want to leave the 4 beds of branches ?
They found the snow hole/cave?
- How, probably in complete darkness, did they hope to find a better protected place ?
Was it dark?
- Why would the "ravine's Four" have chosen this particularly unsuitable place since there was a waterfall of 70 centimeters high ?
Was it a waterfall at the time? It was thawing when the bodies were found.
- Why was Dubinina found, on May 5, in a position in the direction of the current, thus perpendicular to the three others that were across ?
Moved by the water perhaps , or entering the snow cave when it collapsed.
- Why, after having chosen to settle in this hypothetical cellar that they considered safer, did the ceiling suddenly collapse on them ?
Perhaps by trying to make it bigger. They kicked or scrapped away too much of the natural architecture of the strength of the arch. The arch reached a tipping point and collapsed. ( I have personal experience of this happing, no fatalities thankfully. But this has been reported on , especially kids making snow dens.)
- ...etc.
(On the contrary with my criminal theory TOKEB (Tumanov + Oestmoen + Kandr + EBE + BottledBrunette) all these questions, and others, disappear since they are not even posed ! ).
Practical warning: as my Reply #84 is too long, I will add later some instructive pictures for the aspect of the Den-Ravine which are provided by Igor B on the website : http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
Reply #94
.....................................................
No, we completely exclude snow.http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=60669
apparently read the forums:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=64056
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=64055
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&sho...ost&p=68377
......................................................
It is likely that you want to provide the explanations that can be found on one of the 112 web pages of the forum
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
also referred to as: "The tragedy at Dyatlov Pass, Memories. Testimonies. Chronicle."
Unfortunately for me, who thanks to machine translation software (DeepL, Yandex translate....) deciphers Russian posts very difficultly and most of all very slowly, the format of your URL address (which seems abbreviated) is unusable in practice.
On the other hand I have no difficulty in finding the posts that are indicated in a complete and precise way by Igor B. !
For example :
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56231
guides us to post #198 by Igor B. on page 10 (out of 112) of this forum, where we see photos of the Den-Ravine area taken at the end of February or beginning of March 1959.
***************************************************************************
Reply #94
..................................
Tumanov changes his view point.
.........................................
[unusable URL address]
[https://youtu.be/QPpGQwprYP4?t=13m34s ----> video not available in France]
..................................................
Well, it's never too late to acquire professional knowledge, but it was better to do it before previous media interviews.
......................................................
For me, the self-proclaimed advocate of the TOKEB theory (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - EBE - BottledBrunette), it is clear that the explanation of the DPI by a simple criminal attack did not please the Soviet power (Krushchev) in 1959, and does not please the present Russian power (Putin) either.
(Note first that TOKEB obviously disagrees with most of the arguments, despite their numerous and detailed nature, supported by Igor B., which can be read on the 112 pages of http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133
En 1959 :
Andrey Kirilenko (1st Secretary of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee of the CPSU) summoned Korotaev(1936-2012) to the investigator's office and unequivocally explained:
"Khrushchev is notified that the students froze to death and the case must be closed."
Moreover, I consider that Korotaev and Ivanov did not lie when they described the surprise attack of trained and determined killers as an overwhelming force which the hikers were unable to overcome."
Similarly in the years 2018 -2020 Eduard Tumanov "under the watchful eye of the Kremlin custodians of the Dyatlov Group's death", was warned by Putin's collaborators to stop talking in public or on television about anything that might suggest criminal explanations of the DPI.
Obviously, like Korotaev and Ivanov before him, Eduard Tumanov preferred to avoid serious trouble in his life and chose to publicly state that he had changed his view point.
About Tumanov's forced change, you can read Aleks Kandr's argument on his website (but it is long !) :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3
and a discussion on the same subject on taina.li :
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0
Personally, I approve of Tumanov not wanting to ruin his life by telling the truth about the 9 murders, which is an old case that is relatively unimportant compared to recent events like the war in Ukraine !
As Per Inge Oestmoen skilfully expresses it "bodies do not lie", and what interests me now are the "WHO" and "WHY" questions.
In France, in Russia and in every country in the world, government censorship exists. So how do you explain that on taina.li, the discusion launched by Aleks Kandr = Aleks K is blocked ?
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
Blocked topic
Thank you dear RMK,
I updated my math and found:
We expect 17% in the blue circle and get 100%, we expect 80% elsewhere and get 0%.
Charles, your maths are incorrect.
The 3% left correspond to the vertebras of which I don't have the details: some are inside the blue circle and others are outside. I also added a fracture of the skull as I lately discovered that Dr Vozrozhdenny described a wound "penetrating into" the mastoid process. The total of fractures being 30:
(https://i.ibb.co/4gG1qpw/30-bone-fractures.png) (https://ibb.co/3YqR3c5)
But there is "a problem with accident theories" which is:
Deputy Federal Prosecutor for Investigations Urakov arrived and immediately asked us to bring him the case. He told us to write the closing statement. He went to the Oblast committee and took Klinov and Ivanov with him. When Ivanov came back he told me that an order was to close the case. [...] I received an express order from Urakov to tell parents it was an accident [...] he himself must have received orders from the Procurator General who, in his turn, executed orders from his superiors. And it looks like so: all of a sudden, in the midst of investigation, there comes Urakov and closes down all work. (Evgeniy Okishev's 2014 intervew) https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2014
The same problem you can find here:
"Considering the absence of external injuries to the bodies or signs of a fight, the presence of all the valuables of the group, and also taking into account the conclusion of the medical examinations for the causes of the deaths of the hikers, it is concluded that the cause of their demise was overwhelming force, which the hikers were not able to overcome." (L.N. Ivanov's resolution to close the case of May 28, 1959)
The "accident theorie" was not the conclusion of an investigation but the result of a political decision which was taken in Sverdlovsk Oblast committee or in Moscow and imposed as an "express order" to the investigators... And how to deal with "signs of fight"? Easy: just deny the existence of the more than 80 "external injuries" described in the autopsy reports. The "accident theories" have a problem, and a bigger one than the "homicide theories".
It's unfortunate that the study you cite concerns (as aforementioned) "all-cause" morbidity of bone fractures, and does not present statistics stratified by cause-of-injury (e.g., misadventure/accident versus assault versus self-inflicted), but I think it is safe to assume that the vast majority of fractures occur due to misadventure or accident, and not due to human malice.
It is not so unfortunate because fracture always imply some catastrophic event. Maybe there are cases of slow fractures, occurring in periods counted in hours, days or weeks, and not painful, but they should be very rare. Fracture means instantaneous event, catastrophic and violent (force excessing the bone resistance). That is to say, all fractures are like equalized in their catastrophic circumstance. And this "equalization" allow us to compare the 9 hikers' fractures with the 178 million sample.
PS: I have checked about multiple ribs fractures or flail chest in medical studies and there are records of such fractures "caused by assault". These case are rare in samples that are open to all cases admitted into hospital, but in the gulag, the cases were so frequent they had a Russian nickname: "razbit faneru" - "to crack the plywood".
Charles, your maths are incorrect.